Flechette shot from 70 feet away?

[Thomas Graves]

I just read the article "The Umbrella System: Prelude to an Assassination" by Richard E. Sprague and Robert Cutler:

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/TUM.txt

In the article they say that JFK was hit in the neck by TUM's flechette at Z-189. I was curious to find out how long of a shot that was, so I pulled up Don Roberdeau's map of Dealy Plaza

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/DP.jpg

and then by using Don's scale and my tape-measure, I calculated the distance from TUM to JFK at Z-189 to be around 70-75 feet.

Since the umbrella weapon was designed to be aimed simply by looking down the "barrel" (or whatever it's called) towards the target, I'm wondering how likely it is that JFK was hit so accurately from this distance.

Comments?

--Thomas

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[Ron Ecker]

Z189 is too early. Willis 5 (showing Black Dog Man) was taken around Z202, and JFK had apparently still not been hit.

If JFK was hit with a fletchette (and his behavior, the nature of the wound, absence of a bullet, availability of the weapon, and the presence of the umbrella constitute compelling evidence - I hate coincidences, especially compound ones), it was just as he was going behind the Stemmons Sign in the Z film.

[Thomas Graves]

Z189 is too early. Willis 5 (showing Black Dog Man) was taken around Z202, and JFK had apparently still not been hit.

___________________________________

Well, I guess that settles it. Sprague and Cutler were wrong in their analysis of Z frames 188, 189...

___________________________________

[Myra Bronstein]

Z189 is too early. Willis 5 (showing Black Dog Man) was taken around Z202, and JFK had apparently still not been hit.

If JFK was hit with a fletchette (and his behavior, the nature of the wound, absence of a bullet, availability of the weapon, and the presence of the umbrella constitute compelling evidence - I hate coincidences, especially compound ones), it was just as he was going behind the Stemmons Sign in the Z film.

JFK's grabbing his neck and the 'pencil size' neck wound 'of entry' [with much attempt to make it 'disappear'] all seem to point to the possibility IMO of a fleshette, but I think it could have come from a gun, rather than an 'umbrella'. TUM was considerably to JFK's right and the wound was apparently from more head-on of JFK. A curare-like agent would be just right for setting up the death blow.

Interesting. I was beginning to think I was the only one who saw a lot of merit in the flechette scenario.

And Peter, I've watched Zapruder about a zillion times specifically to watch UM's antics, in conjunction with DCM, and the President's reaction. And I don't think that the President is clutching at his neck; he looks paralyzed, frozen. His hands are not up at his throat, they're just jutted out at an odd angle as if he was stopped in mid-motion.

I know he had a back brace, which limited his range of motion somewhat, but he's more than just limited. Notice how everybody discribes his expression as "blank"? Yeah he'd be stunned if he was shot, but he doesn't move at all until the final shot(s). It just seems like his body, and his face, are paralyzed. I'm not totally convinced, but I think it's a viable theory.

I can't find information on the range of a disolving flechette though.

[Guest Stephen Turner]

To my way of thinking this is where we, as researchers begin to enter the World of fantasy. Number one, to claim that because Kennedy wasnt thrashing around after the first shot is proof of a paralysing agent, simply shows a poor knowledge of how different people react to a gunshot wound, nerve and muscle damage can often have this precise affect. Secondly why go to the bother, and potential danger of exposure? Kennedys siting bolt upright, in an open topped car, that is literally crawling down Elm, If two, or three highly trained snipers cant get a kill shot between them without the flechette pantomime, well you get my drift.

[Guest Mark Valenti]

To my way of thinking this is where we, as researchers begin to enter the World of fantasy. Number one, to claim that because Kennedy wasnt thrashing around after the first shot is proof of a paralysing agent, simply shows a poor knowledge of how different people react to a gunshot wound, nerve and muscle damage can often have this precise affect. Secondly why go to the bother, and potential danger of exposure? Kennedys siting bolt upright, in an open topped car, that is literally crawling down Elm, If two, or three highly trained snipers cant get a kill shot between them without the flechette pantomime, well you get my drift.

I completely agree with you, Stephen. In the more clear Z films available, you can see that JFK's body is obviously hunching forward, he almost looks like he's doing a massive gag reflex from whatever just happened to his throat.

[Jack White]

I just read the article "The Umbrella System: Prelude to an Assassination" by Richard E. Sprague and Robert Cutler:

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/TUM.txt

In the article they say that JFK was hit in the neck by TUM's flechette at Z-189. I was curious to find out how long of a shot that was, so I pulled up Don Roberdeau's map of Dealy Plaza

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/DP.jpg

and then by using Don's scale and my tape-measure, I calculated the distance from TUM to JFK at Z-189 to be around 70-75 feet.

Since the umbrella weapon was designed to be aimed simply by looking down the "barrel" (or whatever it's called) towards the target, I'm wondering how likely it is that JFK was hit so accurately from this distance.

Comments?

--Thomas

______________________________________

Cutler and Sprague got all their UMBRELLA FLECHETTE information

from Fletcher Prouty. I talked at length to Fletch about this and he

was personally aware of the weapon, and that the CIA had several

of them. I was dubious about the accuracy and aiming capability of

such a weapon. He said the flechette system was incorporated into many

different forms. It was developed during the Korean war to disable

sentries and guard dogs silently. He assured me that the agency

would NOT MANUFACTURE SUCH WEAPONS UNLESS THEY HAD BEEN

EXTENSIVELY TESTED FOR ACCURACY. The Church Committee

discovered that the CIA did have flechette weapons.

Fletch knew what he was talking about. But I still prefer to think that

the umbrella was used as a signalling device.

However, we have the disturbing Siebert-Oneil receipt which says

"a MISSILE was removed from the body". Hmmmmmm.

Jack

Edited November 2, 2006 by Jack White

[Myra Bronstein]

I just read the article "The Umbrella System: Prelude to an Assassination" by Richard E. Sprague and Robert Cutler:

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/TUM.txt

In the article they say that JFK was hit in the neck by TUM's flechette at Z-189. I was curious to find out how long of a shot that was, so I pulled up Don Roberdeau's map of Dealy Plaza

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/DP.jpg

and then by using Don's scale and my tape-measure, I calculated the distance from TUM to JFK at Z-189 to be around 70-75 feet.

Since the umbrella weapon was designed to be aimed simply by looking down the "barrel" (or whatever it's called) towards the target, I'm wondering how likely it is that JFK was hit so accurately from this distance.

Comments?

--Thomas

______________________________________

Cutler and Sprague got all their UMBRELLA FLECHETTE information

from Fletcher Prouty. I talked at length to Fletch about this and he

was personally aware of the weapon, and that the CIA had several

of them. I was dubious about the accuracy and aiming capability of

such a weapon. He said the flechette system was incorporated into many

different forms. It was developed during the Korean war to disable

sentries and guard dogs silently. He assured me that the agency

would NOT MANUFACTURE SUCH WEAPONS UNLESS THEY HAD BEEN

EXTENSIVELY TESTED FOR ACCURACY. The Church Committee

discovered that the CIA did have flechette weapons.

Fletch knew what he was talking about. But I still prefer to think that

the umbrella was used as a signalling device.

However, we have the disturbing Siebert-Oneil receipt which says

"a MISSILE was removed from the body". Hmmmmmm.

Jack

Oh, that's a good piece of evidence. Thank you. I'm just now reading Best Evidence but I'm not to the throad wound chapter yet. (I'm skipping around.) I assume he'll mention that.

And Prouty is the reason why I was even willing to consider the umbrella flechette as a possibility. I think he has pretty good credibility, or at least better than most of the people in the Kennedy orbit at that time.

Then once I started looking into it, I thought it was a good possibilty. Still not decided but not ruling it out.

Edited November 2, 2006 by Myra Bronstein

[Ron Ecker]

I also agree with Jack that the strange word 'missile' [not used for bullets!] might be the tip-off!...of course is disappeared, like so much of the evidence.......

The fletchette was designed to dissolve completely, so no missile would be found.

[Jack White]

I also agree with Jack that the strange word 'missile' [not used for bullets!] might be the tip-off!...of course is disappeared, like so much of the evidence.......

The fletchette was designed to dissolve completely, so no missile would be found.

To the contrary, Prouty's missile was metalic and had stabilizing fins. I have a scan

of it and will post it if I can remember the file name. It's length is about the diameter

of a dime. It was propelled by carbon dioxide gas.

Jack

[Shanet Clark]

I conclude that JFK was shot in the neck at about the point he disappears behind the sign.

COincidentally, the CIA had an umbrella that fired paralyzing darts.

But that doesn't mean that UMBRELLA MAN shot the dart into his neck, since

the aiming of the periscope sight would have been very difficult.

This is three different stories converging:

a) a man was conspicuous with an umbrella near the motorcade

b- Kennedy appears to have been shot in the neck and possibly paralyzed; and

c) it became public in the Senate Church Committee hearing that the CIA had umbrella guns........

Edited November 2, 2006 by Shanet Clark

[Myra Bronstein]

I also agree with Jack that the strange word 'missile' [not used for bullets!] might be the tip-off!...of course is disappeared, like so much of the evidence.......

The fletchette was designed to dissolve completely, so no missile would be found.

To the contrary, Prouty's missile was metalic and had stabilizing fins. I have a scan

of it and will post it if I can remember the file name. It's length is about the diameter

of a dime. It was propelled by carbon dioxide gas.

Jack

It can work either way: either disolve and be undetectable or leave the metal arrow. I had assumed that, if it was used on President Kennedy, it was of the disolving kind. But the more I study the amBUSH the more I realize the perps were much more concerned with overkilling the President than with being discreet. They knew LBJ's coverup, and the media mouthpieces, would paper it over.

Here's Sprague's speculative description of what may have happened with a disolving "missile":

"The first rifle shot was fired from the second floor of the Dal Tex building. It struck JFK in the back, five and three-quarters inches below his shirt-collar line, at frame Z225. Since JFK's muscles were paralyzed, he was like a rigid, sitting duck target. His head and upper torso were driven down and forward, and his elbows were flung upward and outward, because no muscles would stop a rotating elbow and arm motion pivoting around two frozen points- -his fists and his shoulders. (Observe all of these points between photos #5 and 6, Z225 and Z227--2/18 seconds apart.) If JFK had been in a nonparalyzed state, the back shot would have knocked him much farther forward and down.

The flechette dissolved in JFK's body, leaving no trace, except for the small entrance wound in his neck. The poison would not have shown up in the autopsy, even if tests for it had been made. However, because there was no apparent reason to suspect poison, no tests for it were made."

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/TUM.html

[Myra Bronstein]

I conclude that JFK was shot in the neck at about the point he disappears behind the sign.

COincidentally, the CIA had an umbrella that fired paralyzing darts.

But that doesn't mean that UMBRELLA MAN shot the dart into his neck, since

the aiming of the periscope sight would have been very difficult.

This is three different stories converging:

a) a man was conspicuous with an umbrella near the motorcade

b- Kennedy appears to have been shot in the neck and possibly paralyzed; and

c) it became public in the Senate Church Committee hearing that the CIA had umbrella guns........

Yes, also DCM certainly appeared to be UM's partner, seeming to signal something with his raised fist.

As an editorial aside, if the only point in having the team of UM and DCM there was to supply a signal (presumuably on the President's condition) then I don't see why UM was needed. All they needed was DCM with his raised fist. So UM must have been doing something besides signaling.

[James Richards]

I also agree with Jack that the strange word 'missile' [not used for bullets!] might be the tip-off!...of course is disappeared, like so much of the evidence.......

The fletchette was designed to dissolve completely, so no missile would be found.

To the contrary, Prouty's missile was metalic and had stabilizing fins. I have a scan

of it and will post it if I can remember the file name. It's length is about the diameter

of a dime. It was propelled by carbon dioxide gas.

Jack

Is this the kind of dart you refer to, Jack?

James

[Guest John Woods]

a

Edited April 8, 2007 by John Woods