Curtains?

[John Dolva]

"This day he went home one day earlier on Thursday night, and came back to—with this fellow—and when he came back he had a package under his arm that he said was window curtains, I believe, or window shades"

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/The_critics/L...l_Guardian.html

is there a confirmation that wade said this?

_____________________

does this diagram mean anything to anyone?

I think it shows the cleaning van (inset) and its movements after the motorcade passed.

Edited November 7, 2006 by John Dolva

[John Dolva]

The following shows that Lee liked to have Curtains, what he did learn was that getting curtains from this landlord was not necessarily easy. Marina wasn't helpful.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION

ON THE ASSASSINATION OF

PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of Texas,

County of Tarrant, ss:

Chester Allen Riggs, Jr., being duly sworn says:

1.I am Vice President of Orbit Industries, Inc., 250 Carroll, Fort Worth, Texas, --I reside at 836 Edgefield in that city

2.I am and have been prior to July 1 of 1962, the owner of a duplex house located at 2703 Mercedes Street, Fort Worth, Texas. That duplex contains two furnished apartments.

3.Sometime in July, 1962, I rented one of the apartment units to Lee Harvey Oswald.

.......................

8.Either at the time that Oswald rented the apartment or shortly thereafter, he asked me to install new curtains in the apartment, which I agreed to do. While I had no difficulty with Oswald in this connection he was quite definite in stating that he wanted the new curtains installed.

9.I subsequently called at the apartment to consult with Oswald or his wife concerning the color of the drapes or curtains to be installed in the apartment. Oswald was not present at the time and when I attempted to discuss the matter with his wife I could obtain no response from her. It appeared to me at the time that she was not interested in having the new curtains. Subsequently I have learned that Marina Oswald had a limited command of the English language and it now appears to me in fact that she simply did not understand what I was talking about.

10.Oswald never mentioned the new drapes or curtains after that time and they were never installed in the apartment while he lived there.

Perhaps Marina thought it would be a cost, whereas Oswald thought the landlord would be paying. The landlord seems to indicate that he would be paying.

The upshot of this is perhaps that for Lee, getting new curtains in an apartment was an important thing. As he had been unsuccessful, probably because Marina could not at that time understand how this is arranged, the next time Lee wanted curtains, he decided to do it himself.

He ordered curtains from Nassaua Window Furnishings in New Jersey.

The so called 'paper bag' is actually the wrapping that the curtains came in. Somehow in the telling as per 'chinese whisper' this became 'curtain rods'

They were folded into the envelope size and mailed to him. So the package that he had was in fact curtains.

The reluctance to make anything of them to anyone was because of his prior experience.

The fibers in the bag were from the curtains.

(Q256_01)

So::

is there anywhere a mention of unaccounted for light green cloth of any kind?

what color were the curtains in Lees room?

what color were the curtains in Marinas or the childrens room?

[Jack White]

The following shows that Lee liked to have Curtains, what he did learn was that getting curtains from this landlord was not necessarily easy. Marina wasn't helpful.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION

ON THE ASSASSINATION OF

PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

State of Texas,

County of Tarrant, ss:

Chester Allen Riggs, Jr., being duly sworn says:

1.I am Vice President of Orbit Industries, Inc., 250 Carroll, Fort Worth, Texas, --I reside at 836 Edgefield in that city

2.I am and have been prior to July 1 of 1962, the owner of a duplex house located at 2703 Mercedes Street, Fort Worth, Texas. That duplex contains two furnished apartments.

3.Sometime in July, 1962, I rented one of the apartment units to Lee Harvey Oswald.

.......................

8.Either at the time that Oswald rented the apartment or shortly thereafter, he asked me to install new curtains in the apartment, which I agreed to do. While I had no difficulty with Oswald in this connection he was quite definite in stating that he wanted the new curtains installed.

9.I subsequently called at the apartment to consult with Oswald or his wife concerning the color of the drapes or curtains to be installed in the apartment. Oswald was not present at the time and when I attempted to discuss the matter with his wife I could obtain no response from her. It appeared to me at the time that she was not interested in having the new curtains. Subsequently I have learned that Marina Oswald had a limited command of the English language and it now appears to me in fact that she simply did not understand what I was talking about.

10.Oswald never mentioned the new drapes or curtains after that time and they were never installed in the apartment while he lived there.

Perhaps Marina thought it would be a cost, whereas Oswald thought the landlord would be paying. The landlord seems to indicate that he would be paying.

The upshot of this is perhaps that for Lee, getting new curtains in an apartment was an important thing. As he had been unsuccessful, probably because Marina could not at that time understand how this is arranged, the next time Lee wanted curtains, he decided to do it himself.

He ordered curtains from Nassaua Window Furnishings in New Jersey.

The so called 'paper bag' is actually the wrapping that the curtains came in. Somehow in the telling as per 'chinese whisper' this became 'curtain rods'

They were folded into the envelope size and mailed to him. So the package that he had was in fact curtains.

The reluctance to make anything of them to anyone was because of his prior experience.

The fibers in the bag were from the curtains.

(Q256_01)

So::

is there anywhere a mention of unaccounted for light green cloth of any kind?

what color were the curtains in Lees room?

what color were the curtains in Marinas or the childrens room?

John, it is clearly impossible that "curtains" could be in that small envelope.

And why order "curtains" from New Jersey when they would be available

at local stores? And why order "curtains" for a temporary rented room.

The whole curtain issue is a clumsy attempt to justify the curtain rod story.

Jack

[John Dolva]

Peter, my interest in 'green cloth' is really pretty mellow.

I'm interested in knowing the answers to the questions I posed.

Nothing more, no hidden mysterious intent to figure out. The fact is I can't explain what seems (to me) to be curious connections. So it's an unknown (to me). That's all.

The so called 'paper sack' when folded appears to fit into the envelope. If you look at the folds, they are not sharp, but rounded. Apparently the envelope had with it a piece of corrugated cardboard.

If you want to send a sample of cloth in anticipation of an order, the that is how you would package it. Wrapping paper unrolled onto a table and cut. On this place the sample, place the card stiffener onto that, fold it into the cloth once. Fold the wrapping paper over, tape it down, then fold that and place in envelope.

___________

Jack, I don't understand what you mean regarding 'justifying the curtain rod story'. Could you elaborate, please?

___________

is there anywhere a mention of unaccounted for light green cloth of any kind?

what color were the curtains in Lees room?

what color were the curtains in Marinas or the childrens room?

also:

is there a confirmation that wade said this:

"This day he went home one day earlier on Thursday night, and came back to—with this fellow—and when he came back he had a package under his arm that he said was window curtains, I believe, or window shades"

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/The_critics/L...l_Guardian.html

?

Edited November 5, 2006 by John Dolva

[J. Raymond Carroll]

is there a confirmation that wade said this:

"This day he went home one day earlier on Thursday night, and came back to—with this fellow—and when he came back he had a package under his arm that he said was window curtains, I believe, or window shades"

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/The_critics/L...l_Guardian.html

?

This statement by Wade is verbatim from Wade's news conference of Sunday, nov. 24th, as transcribed by WBC-TV. This transcript was published in full in the New York Times the following day and is reproduced in Four Days in November: the original coverage of the John F. Kennedy assassination by the staff of the New York Times, published by St. Martin's Press in 1993

[John Dolva]

Thank you Raymond, much appreciated.

___________

Who is James Branum?

What does he have to do with Frazier?

[Charles Black]

I, in no way understand this thread! Are you speaking of Oswald wanting cutains for a previous address?

If Oswald had wanted curtains for his room, why would they have been delivered to the Paine Residence and not his rooming house.

If we are not talking about Lee's actions on 11/22/63.....why are we discussing this?

Charlie Black

[John Dolva]

I, in no way understand this thread! Are you speaking of Oswald wanting cutains for a previous address?

If Oswald had wanted curtains for his room, why would they have been delivered to the Paine Residence and not his rooming house.

If we are not talking about Lee's actions on 11/22/63.....why are we discussing this?

Charlie Black

Charles, that reference to a previous curtain incidence is just to highlight that new curtains mattered to Oswald. Thing's matter differently to different people. That's all that's about.

That's a puzzle about deliveries to Paine or the rooming house. I don't know.

Meanwhile, I don't understand this thread either. There are curious ingrediants involving curtains, statements about curtain rods, packets that are long then folded, a parcel (with a curious address) in the dead letter dept of the PO that the 'paper bag' when folded could fit into, fibers and finger/palm prints. Perhaps in knowing all related knowable facts it's possible to come to an understanding. Perhaps not.

Lee posted a pic of Q256. (in Lt. Day topic) apparently there is a photo of the cardboard that was inside it. Is that available too?

As far as 'James Branum' goes. The only Branum I've come across so far, related in some way to the assassination, is an editor of Kilgallen who received an anonymous phone call telling her Kilgallen was murdered some hours before the body was found. Whether that Branum is somehow related to this James who may be somehow connected to Frazier is another matter. It doesn't seem that common a name. I'm interesting in knowing if someone who has a much broader knowledge of the assassination facts has come across a James Branum. He may be a previously unknown witness. Possibly something to do with the (cleaning?) van that was parked on the corner of Elm and Houston.

[Charles Black]

Hello John

Thanks for the explanation. I, per usual, remain confused.

Charlie Black

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Peter, my interest in 'green cloth' is really pretty mellow.

I'm interested in knowing the answers to the questions I posed.

Nothing more, no hidden mysterious intent to figure out. The fact is I can't explain what seems (to me) to be curious connections. So it's an unknown (to me). That's all.

The so called 'paper sack' when folded appears to fit into the envelope. If you look at the folds, they are not sharp, but rounded. Apparently the envelope had with it a piece of corrugated cardboard.

If you want to send a sample of cloth in anticipation of an order, the that is how you would package it. Wrapping paper unrolled onto a table and cut. On this place the sample, place the card stiffener onto that, fold it into the cloth once. Fold the wrapping paper over, tape it down, then fold that and place in envelope.

___________

Jack, I don't understand what you mean regarding 'justifying the curtain rod story'. Could you elaborate, please?

___________

is there anywhere a mention of unaccounted for light green cloth of any kind?

what color were the curtains in Lees room?

what color were the curtains in Marinas or the childrens room?

also:

is there a confirmation that wade said this:

"This day he went home one day earlier on Thursday night, and came back to—with this fellow—and when he came back he had a package under his arm that he said was window curtains, I believe, or window shades"

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/The_critics/L...l_Guardian.html

?

John;

The package itself is typical of what was frequently utilized when some book and/or magazines were sent through the mail.

The stiched/sewn ends were from the mass packaging methods utilized.

However, since the package appears to be addressed in the handwritting of LHO, and the sewn ends have not been opened, then it would be most unlikely that LHO could sew the package closed and thereafter send it to himself.

So, the question would be exactly which side of the package may or may not have been opened prior, and thereafter closed, re-addressed and re-mailed?

LHO had received a billing from the Devilbiss Company for magazines which he did not receive due to their "clerical error".

This package may have some bearing on this, and could therefore be associated with any number of items which LHO may have been up to.

[Frank Agbat]

Perhaps LHO ordered something, and the order form was used as a shipping label?

[Guest John Woods]

a

Edited April 8, 2007 by John Woods

[John Dolva]

Perhaps LHO ordered something, and the order form was used as a shipping label?

Either that or the writing was used as a template to forge the label in order to direct the parcel to the dead letter office.

John, I wonder if you could email them to me or someone to post?

_________________

When folded in half the 'bag' is hardly 'long' (as Fraziers sister saw). It is however about 2' by 1' foot and could be called 'large'.

The curtain rods are about 3/4 of the bag length.

It seems to me that the bag that Fraziers sister saw was at full length. Lee then folded it in half when he put it in the back seat. And this is what he then carried into the TSBD. Neither the curtain rods, nor the rifle fits this 2' by 1' package.

What does fit the bill in terms of being foldable is the curtains* that Wade mantioned.

The package when folded four times to its original format has the proportions of the envelope. A magazine does not.

A 'fat quarter' does.

http://www.sweettreat.com/pages/kits/lucky_stars.html

http://www.lovetosew.com/fabricmeasurement.htm

*or a sample

________________________

"On March 5, 1941, Mrs. Oswald purchased a frame 43 house at 1010 Bartholomew Street, for $1,300.44 According to John's recollection, the neighborhood was not as pleasant as Alvar Street; the house had a backyard, and the family kept a dog named "Sunshine.". A neighbor, Mrs. Viola Peterman, recalls that Mrs. Oswald kept to herself but appeared to be "a good mother to her children.". She opened a shop in the front room, where she sold things like sewing supplies and small groceries. Oswald's Notion Shop, as it was called, failed to make money,49 and on January 16, 1942, Mrs. Oswald sold the house back to the Third District Home Association, from which she had purchased it, for a profit of $800.50"

"The Russian friends, who were established, and had cars and fine homes, could not see this Russian girl doing without. They are the ones that interfered. They are the ones that interfered, and were not happy the way this Russian girl- and within a short time, then, this Russian girl had a playpen, had a sewing machine, had a baby bed, and a Taylor Tot. And this all came out in the paper-that they supplied this to the girl, because she was in need of these things".

"My regret through the years has been immense," said Marina, who now lives on a 17-acre farm outside Dallas with her three children (two by Oswald) and Kenneth Porter, a sewing-machine salesman".

Edited November 7, 2006 by John Dolva

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Perhaps LHO ordered something, and the order form was used as a shipping label?

Either that or the writing was used as a template to forge the label in order to direct the parcel to the dead letter office.

John, I wonder if you could email them to me or someone to post?

_________________

When folded in half the 'bag' is hardly 'long' (as Fraziers sister saw). It is however about 2' by 1' foot and could be called 'large'.

The curtain rods are about 3/4 of the bag length.

It seems to me that the bag that Fraziers sister saw was at full length. Lee then folded it in half when he put it in the back seat. And this is what he then carried into the TSBD. Neither the curtain rods, nor the rifle fits this 2' by 1' package.

What does fit the bill in terms of being foldable is the curtains* that Wade mantioned.

The package when folded four times to its original format has the proportions of the envelope. A magazine does not.

A 'fat quarter' does.

http://www.sweettreat.com/pages/kits/lucky_stars.html

http://www.lovetosew.com/fabricmeasurement.htm

*or a sample

________________________

"On March 5, 1941, Mrs. Oswald purchased a frame 43 house at 1010 Bartholomew Street, for $1,300.44 According to John's recollection, the neighborhood was not as pleasant as Alvar Street; the house had a backyard, and the family kept a dog named "Sunshine.". A neighbor, Mrs. Viola Peterman, recalls that Mrs. Oswald kept to herself but appeared to be "a good mother to her children.". She opened a shop in the front room, where she sold things like sewing supplies and small groceries. Oswald's Notion Shop, as it was called, failed to make money,49 and on January 16, 1942, Mrs. Oswald sold the house back to the Third District Home Association, from which she had purchased it, for a profit of $800.50"

"The Russian friends, who were established, and had cars and fine homes, could not see this Russian girl doing without. They are the ones that interfered. They are the ones that interfered, and were not happy the way this Russian girl- and within a short time, then, this Russian girl had a playpen, had a sewing machine, had a baby bed, and a Taylor Tot. And this all came out in the paper-that they supplied this to the girl, because she was in need of these things".

"My regret through the years has been immense," said Marina, who now lives on a 17-acre farm outside Dallas with her three children (two by Oswald) and Kenneth Porter, a sewing-machine salesman".

John;

The sewing which you see on the ends of the package are the "easy open" stich which is still found today at the local Co-Op.

This stitch is used in everything from rabbit and dog food bags to sacks of corn.

One can find a certain thread, pull it, and the entire stitching will come undone, thus leaving a nice opened end to the bag.

As to the Devilbiss magagines/books, they were not the everyday reading materials, therefore it is unknown as to the size.

So, the bag remains a mystery and unless one could see the opposite side as well as the postage stamp date, then it will possibly remain so unless someone finds a similar item somewhere.

[John Dolva]

Tom, I used to work in a large Kitchen once and we got supplies in those sort of stched up packages and bags. If one finds the right string, and I'm sure there is a way of always picking the right one, then yes it just slips open. I never always got it, not for want of trying. I often gave up and just cut it open.

If you look at the right side top it looks like a tear and then a cut from top to bottom that coincides with a fold.

This further gives an idea of the size of the contents. If you look at the left side there are soft creases that also helps to see the size and even the thickness of the contents when the contents were in there.

If you look at the perimeter of the stamp, it seems the stamp traverses the cut without breaking stride, ie the stamp was applied after the envelope was empty

The label itsels is torn (blue line) indicating that the "Irving Texas" is not an addition, but that the label is stuck over an address. Where is this envelope today?

EDIT:: It's possible to make a reasonable guess about the thicknesas of the package when the contents were in it causing various creases around the perimeter.

This would definitely mean that the stamp was applied after the envelope was emptied. Possibly by Oswald.

Perhaps it's roughly one inch thick 'pickette' of quarters, which is a reasonable amount of material.

Edited November 7, 2006 by John Dolva