Why no discussion of Rockefellers' culpability?

[Myra Bronstein]

I know that there's a widespread perception that some Rockefellers (David? Nelson? Other(s)?) are culpable in President Kennedy's murder, and other evil-doings. Yet I haven't seen a thread about them.

Is that because of:

-Fear?

-The fact that it's hard to get specifics on the Ruling Elite?

-Lack of source material to cite?

-The inevitable result of a mysterious two day forum outage?

-All of the above?

-Other?

Or do people think it only went as high as Tx oil millionairs, CIA, LBJ--therefore the Rockefellers had nothing to do with it?

[Shanet Clark]

I know that there's a widespread perception that some Rockefellers (David? Nelson? Other(s)?) are culpable in President Kennedy's murder, and other evil-doings. Yet I haven't seen a thread about them.

Is that because of:

-Fear?

-The fact that it's hard to get specifics on the Ruling Elite?

-Lack of source material to cite?

-The inevitable result of a mysterious two day forum outage?

-All of the above?

-Other?

Or do people think it only went as high as Tx oil millionairs, CIA, LBJ--therefore the Rockefellers had nothing to do with it?

The use of false papers, uniforms, rifle snipers in urban areas, mis-direction

and a politically charged patsy all point to Latin American inputs, and of course

Nelson Rockefeller was Eisenhower's US liasson for all things south of the border..........

[Greg Parker]

I know that there's a widespread perception that some Rockefellers (David? Nelson? Other(s)?) are culpable in President Kennedy's murder, and other evil-doings. Yet I haven't seen a thread about them.

Is that because of:

-Fear?

-The fact that it's hard to get specifics on the Ruling Elite?

-Lack of source material to cite?

-The inevitable result of a mysterious two day forum outage?

-All of the above?

-Other?

Or do people think it only went as high as Tx oil millionairs, CIA, LBJ--therefore the Rockefellers had nothing to do with it?

Myra, fwiw, I don't think any of the clan had anything directly to do with it -- but they did play a part in shaping the conditions which ultimately led to it.

George Michael Evica's book, "A Certain Arrogance" covers the Rockefeller's involvement in using religion as cover for psyops. There is now a thread on that book.

Again fwiw, Michael Paine has been quoted as saying that Oswald "thought the country was run by a largely hidden cabal of capitalists. The only particular one he was able to name for me was David Rockefeller."

Interestingly (or not!), that is a mainstay of Birch conspiracy theories. From answers.com: "The society has also contended that an elite international cabal—the U.S. branch of which supposedly includes the Council on Foreign Relations, for many years led by David Rockefeller—is seeking to establish a world tyranny."

Actually, it's funny that Mike Paine should be putting Bircher doctrine in the mouth of LHO, since he himself was the one who wanted to join the Dallas JBS and attended their meetings. Hmmm.

Then there is evidence that an employee of the Rockefellers once leased a property from an uncle of Michael Paine (according to AJ Weberman).

And lastly, there's the allegation of right-wing extremist and FBI informant, Roy Frankhouser, that he met Oswald and Ruth Paine at a NYC meeting of the Comite International de l'Organisation Scientifique. Who hosted that little shindig? David Rockeller.

Communists/Castro/Jews/Rockellers -- all on right wing s--t lists and all at some stage were potential false sponsors.

[Myra Bronstein]

The use of false papers, uniforms, rifle snipers in urban areas, mis-direction

and a politically charged patsy all point to Latin American inputs, and of course

Nelson Rockefeller was Eisenhower's US liasson for all things south of the border..........

Yes Shanet, I'm starting to see how he insinuated himself into so many administrations, but just couldn't get the big prize. Thanks.

[Myra Bronstein]

Myra, fwiw, I don't think any of the clan had anything directly to do with it -- but they did play a part in shaping the conditions which ultimately led to it.

George Michael Evica's book, "A Certain Arrogance" covers the Rockefeller's involvement in using religion as cover for psyops. There is now a thread on that book.

Ah, I hadn't looked thru that thread Greg, thanks.

I have been looking at "The Life of Nelson A. Rockefeller" by Cary Reich at Amazon. It looks good, unforunately it seems to end before the assassination. I guess it was volume one of a two part work but Reich died suddenly before volume two was done... So, anyone know the circumstances of Reich's death?

Any other books about David or Nelson that give real history, esp their associations with the CIA?

Again fwiw, Michael Paine has been quoted as saying that Oswald "thought the country was run by a largely hidden cabal of capitalists. The only particular one he was able to name for me was David Rockefeller."

Ah hah. Can you point me to a source for that?

Interestingly (or not!), that is a mainstay of Birch conspiracy theories. From answers.com: "The society has also contended that an elite international cabal—the U.S. branch of which supposedly includes the Council on Foreign Relations, for many years led by David Rockefeller—is seeking to establish a world tyranny."

There's a lot of overlap between far left and far right beliefs. I agree with much of what Birchers say. Obviously not everything.

Actually, it's funny that Mike Paine should be putting Bircher doctrine in the mouth of LHO, since he himself was the one who wanted to join the Dallas JBS and attended their meetings. Hmmm.

Wasn't the designated patsy in for the canceled Chicago trip a John Bircher, or at least Birch-dipped?

Then there is evidence that an employee of the Rockefellers once leased a property from an uncle of Michael Paine (according to AJ Weberman).

And lastly, there's the allegation of right-wing extremist and FBI informant, Roy Frankhouser, that he met Oswald and Ruth Paine at a NYC meeting of the Comite International de l'Organisation Scientifique. Who hosted that little shindig? David Rockeller.

Communists/Castro/Jews/Rockellers -- all on right wing s--t lists and all at some stage were potential false sponsors.

Ok, thank you. Good info.

On edit: Quotes from/about David Rockefeller per Wiki:

"For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents such as my encounter with Castro to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." - From David Rockefeller's "Memoirs" (p.405).

"For David Rockefeller, the Presidency of the United States would be a demotion." - The standard joke in America for a time in the 1970's, as quoted in Harr & Johnson The Rockefeller Conscience; An American Family in Public and in Private (1991) (p.217).

"The journalist Bill Moyers, in his 1980 TV special, The World of David Rockefeller, described the plutocrat respectively as "the unelected if indisputable chairman of the American Establishment" and "one of the most powerful, influential and richest men in America", who "sits at the hub of a vast network of financiers, industrialists and politicians whose reach encircles the globe." - Quoted by Will Banyan in his 2006 study: The Proud Internationalist.

Edited December 3, 2006 by Myra Bronstein

[Greg Parker]

Myra, fwiw, I don't think any of the clan had anything directly to do with it -- but they did play a part in shaping the conditions which ultimately led to it.

George Michael Evica's book, "A Certain Arrogance" covers the Rockefeller's involvement in using religion as cover for psyops. There is now a thread on that book.

Ah, I hadn't looked thru that thread Greg, thanks.

Evica covers a lot of the same ground I have, so I have to recommend it

I have been looking at "The Life of Nelson A. Rockefeller" by Cary Reich at Amazon. It looks good, unforunately it seems to end before the assassination. I guess it was volume one of a two part work but Reich died suddenly before volume two was done... So, anyone know the circumstances of Reich's death?

The book ends in 1958. Reich died on March 3, 1998. Don't know the circumstances. His agent has said he left behind a lot of research, and that the second volume would be written if the right author could be found. Doesn't look like that's happened, though.

Any other books about David or Nelson that give real history, esp their associations with the CIA?

I don't know of any that are only about those areas, but quite a few books have one or two chapters which covers them.

Again fwiw, Michael Paine has been quoted as saying that Oswald "thought the country was run by a largely hidden cabal of capitalists. The only particular one he was able to name for me was David Rockefeller."

Ah hah. Can you point me to a source for that?

Sure. It was in an email sent by Michael Paine to a guy named Russell Burr. Burr is a WC supporter who befriended the Paines a few years back. He has been used by some researchers as a link to both, as neither of them will speak to anyone who believes there was a conspiracy. In this case, Burr had emailed a question a researcher had about the Back Yard photo/s and what I quoted above was part of his rambling reply.

Interestingly (or not!), that is a mainstay of Birch conspiracy theories. From answers.com: "The society has also contended that an elite international cabal—the U.S. branch of which supposedly includes the Council on Foreign Relations, for many years led by David Rockefeller—is seeking to establish a world tyranny."

There's a lot of overlap between far left and far right beliefs. I agree with much of what Birchers say. Obviously not everything.

Well, come on... 'fess up. What other JBS beliefs do you have?

Actually, it's funny that Mike Paine should be putting Bircher doctrine in the mouth of LHO, since he himself was the one who wanted to join the Dallas JBS and attended their meetings. Hmmm.

Wasn't the designated patsy in for the canceled Chicago trip a John Bircher, or at least Birch-dipped?

Don't know. Do you recall the name?

Then there is evidence that an employee of the Rockefellers once leased a property from an uncle of Michael Paine (according to AJ Weberman).

And lastly, there's the allegation of right-wing extremist and FBI informant, Roy Frankhouser, that he met Oswald and Ruth Paine at a NYC meeting of the Comite International de l'Organisation Scientifique. Who hosted that little shindig? David Rockeller.

Communists/Castro/Jews/Rockellers -- all on right wing s--t lists and all at some stage were potential false sponsors.

Ok, thank you. Good info.

On edit: Quotes from/about David Rockefeller per Wiki:

"For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents such as my encounter with Castro to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that is the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." - From David Rockefeller's "Memoirs" (p.405).

"For David Rockefeller, the Presidency of the United States would be a demotion." - The standard joke in America for a time in the 1970's, as quoted in Harr & Johnson The Rockefeller Conscience; An American Family in Public and in Private (1991) (p.217).

"The journalist Bill Moyers, in his 1980 TV special, The World of David Rockefeller, described the plutocrat respectively as "the unelected if indisputable chairman of the American Establishment" and "one of the most powerful, influential and richest men in America", who "sits at the hub of a vast network of financiers, industrialists and politicians whose reach encircles the globe." - Quoted by Will Banyan in his 2006 study: The Proud Internationalist.

Great quotes. And DR was right. Being an internationalist I believe was what so upset those po' l'l Birchers. Some on the Left may have hated him for that, too, but saw his internationalism through a different prism (as I guess you'd expect!). But mostly, their hatred I'd assume was for his elitism.

[Ashton Gray]

Myra, I thought you might be interested in the following excerpts from a 1977 article by Lisa Pease in PROBE:

• Walt Rostow was one of Kennedy's "counterinsurgency" experts. "He made counterinsurgency seem profound, reasonable, and eminently just," said author Gerald Colby in his book Thy Will Be Done. Walt Rostow—like Dean Rusk, Roswell Gilpatrick, Edward Lansdale, Paul Nitze, Harland Cleveland, Roger Hilsman, Lincoln Gordon, Adolf Berle, McGeorge Bundy and Henry Kissinger—came to work in the Kennedy administration directly from the Rockefeller Brothers Fund's Special Studies Project. This group had been hand-chosen by Nelson Rockefeller to assist him when he himself was seeking the Presidency. Author Colby called this "Nelson's Secret Victory", pointing out that while Kennedy knew many powerful people, they were mostly politicians, not men with experience in foreign affairs. The Rockefeller family network, and Nelson's group in particular, provided a large assortment of bright, qualified men. However, with such a homogenous group surrounding him, Colby noted, "there was no one to advise the young president on the wisdom and efficacy of such covert operations as the Bay of Pigs invasion, the CIA's secret war in Indochina, Project Eagle, or Lumumba's murder."
  [Otto] Otepka's biographer doesn't seem to understand the distinction between Kennedy and this group. He insinuates that Bobby was behind Walt Rostow's rise and Otepka's fall. Bobby was originally the true believer in counterinsurgency as a means for conducting limited warfare and thus saving a greater number of lives than in outright war, which at that point in time seemed to mean nuclear war. But Bobby became disenchanted himself with both Rusk and Rostow and their type of counterinsurgency. Colby includes the text of one of Bobby's speeches as released to the press, in which was written, "Victory in a revolutionary war is not won by escalation, but by de-escalation." Kennedy did not actually speak these words when the speech was delivered, but the words were widely quoted by the press.
  

Omitted from that list of Rockefeller alumni is Douglas Caddy.

The artilce opens with the statement: "Otto Otepka once told journalist Sarah McClendon that he knew who had killed JFK, but would say no more on the subject."

I suspect that may be one of the few valid claims in that regard.

Ashton

[Charles Black]

Ashton

I never thought that I would say this, but you offer an extraordinary amount of "very sound thinking", on those occasions when you descend from that area of the stratosphere where I often find you. I also look forward to your "Timeline".

Charlie Black

[Steve Thomas]

Greg,

Wasn't the designated patsy in for the canceled Chicago trip a John Bircher, or at least Birch-dipped?

Don't know. Do you recall the name?

Thomas Arthur Vallee was a member of the John Birch Society

Steve Thomas

[Paul Rigby]

Myra Bronstein wrote: "I have been looking at "The Life of Nelson A. Rockefeller" by Cary Reich at Amazon. It looks good, unforunately it seems to end before the assassination...Any other books about David or Nelson that give real history, esp their associations with the CIA?

Myra,

One snap-shot I have of Nelson Rockefeller's attitude to CIA post-assassination:

The Washington Daily News, 20 May 1964, p.31

Intelligence (Sic)

by Richard Starnes

A comic-opera security lapse and a sharp indictment of the United States Intelligence bureaucracy marked a not-so-secret briefing for members of Congress and governors during the "eyeball-to-eyeball" Cuban missile crisis.

During the critical days preceding the U.S.-Soviet showdown over installation of Russian missile sites in Cuba, the Administration arranged five regional briefings to keep congressional and state officials abreast of the developments that led the world to the brink of nuclear war in 1962. The briefing for northeastern states was held at the Federal building at 90 Church Street in downtown Manhattan.

Briefing officer was Roger Hilsman, who then was the State Department’s Director of Intelligence and Research. Backed up by maps and aerial photographs, he launched into a highly classified discussion of the crisis that had followed discovery of Soviet missile sites less than 100 miles across the Straits of Florida from the United States.

The briefing had continued for 10 or 15 minutes when one member of the audience interrupted. “Mr. Hilsman,” he said, “you are giving highly secret information here to 100 or more people who are supposed to be Members of Congress or governors. And yet we simply walked in here without any security check whatsoever. No one asked me to produce any identification. How do you know who is actually in this auditorium?”

Mr. Hilsman attempted to reassure his audience by explaining that a yellow scratch pad would be passed around for their signatures. This haphazard approach to security only provoked an uproar, however, and finally the State Department representative agreed that it might be a good idea to require everyone to identify himself.

When this was done, five interlopers were found. One was the chauffeur of Gov. John Volpe of Massachusetts. Neither he nor any of the others was suspected of any subversive intent – but all five were definitely not supposed to hear the secret briefing. In view of the shocking security lapse, Nikita, himself, might have been in the room.

Mr. Hilsman, who later became Under Secretary for Far Eastern Affairs and subsequently resigned as a consequence of President Johnson’s growing dissatisfaction with the conduct of the war in Viet Nam, then concluded the briefing and invited questions from his audience.

Gov. Nelson Rockefeller stood up and pointed out a fact that everyone in the room knew to be true – that Sen. Kenneth Keating (R., N.Y.) had been warning that Soviet rockets were being emplaced in Cuba for a month before the Central Intelligence Agency alerted the National Security Council and the White House to the threat.

“Don’t you believe this represents a major breakdown in our Intelligence community?” Gov. Rockefeller challenged.

“Not at all,” Mr. Hilsman replied with acerbity. “It actually represents a triumph of our Intelligence community.”

“I’m not going to argue with you about it,” Gov. Rockefeller replied, “but I am deeply concerned with the apparent lack of effectiveness of our Intelligence. Ken Keating warned us that the missile sites were under construction long before the CIA ever knew about them.”

Note: Since that time, Gov. Rockefeller has done a great deal of homework on the nation’s elephantine Intelligence apparatus, and today is one of the best-informed experts on the American spy apparatus outside of government. Henry Cabot Lodge, who had his own eyeball-to-eyeball showdown with the high-riding CIA shortly after he became Ambassador to South Viet Nam, and Gov. Rockefeller are the two GOP Presidential hopefuls who are deeply disturbed over the role of the powerful, autonomous and grandly unaccountable CIA.

Of course, Keating was spoonfed by the Agency - most likely by McCone himself, according to one author - precisely to embarrass Kennedy.

Paul

[Ashton Gray]

Ashton

I never thought that I would say this, but you offer an extraordinary amount of "very sound thinking", on those occasions when you descend from that area of the stratosphere where I often find you. I also look forward to your "Timeline".

Charlie Black

Thank you, Charles. That was very gentlemanly of you to acknowledge points of alignment despite areas of considerable disagreement. And while I'm glad we have this point of agreement, Ms. Pease deserves all the acknowledgment, just to keep things in order.

Ashton

Edited January 8, 2007 by Ashton Gray

[Myra Bronstein]

Myra, I thought you might be interested in the following excerpts from a 1977 article by Lisa Pease in PROBE:

• Walt Rostow was one of Kennedy's "counterinsurgency" experts. "He made counterinsurgency seem profound, reasonable, and eminently just," said author Gerald Colby in his book Thy Will Be Done. Walt Rostow—like Dean Rusk, Roswell Gilpatrick, Edward Lansdale, Paul Nitze, Harland Cleveland, Roger Hilsman, Lincoln Gordon, Adolf Berle, McGeorge Bundy and Henry Kissinger—came to work in the Kennedy administration directly from the Rockefeller Brothers Fund's Special Studies Project. This group had been hand-chosen by Nelson Rockefeller to assist him when he himself was seeking the Presidency. Author Colby called this "Nelson's Secret Victory", pointing out that while Kennedy knew many powerful people, they were mostly politicians, not men with experience in foreign affairs. The Rockefeller family network, and Nelson's group in particular, provided a large assortment of bright, qualified men. However, with such a homogenous group surrounding him, Colby noted, "there was no one to advise the young president on the wisdom and efficacy of such covert operations as the Bay of Pigs invasion, the CIA's secret war in Indochina, Project Eagle, or Lumumba's murder."
  [Otto] Otepka's biographer doesn't seem to understand the distinction between Kennedy and this group. He insinuates that Bobby was behind Walt Rostow's rise and Otepka's fall. Bobby was originally the true believer in counterinsurgency as a means for conducting limited warfare and thus saving a greater number of lives than in outright war, which at that point in time seemed to mean nuclear war. But Bobby became disenchanted himself with both Rusk and Rostow and their type of counterinsurgency. Colby includes the text of one of Bobby's speeches as released to the press, in which was written, "Victory in a revolutionary war is not won by escalation, but by de-escalation." Kennedy did not actually speak these words when the speech was delivered, but the words were widely quoted by the press.
  

Omitted from that list of Rockefeller alumni is Douglas Caddy.

The artilce opens with the statement: "Otto Otepka once told journalist Sarah McClendon that he knew who had killed JFK, but would say no more on the subject."

I suspect that may be one of the few valid claims in that regard.

Ashton

Thank you Ashton. It seems like every time I read about a member of President Kennedy's administration, it underscores the fact that he inadvertently isolated himself in his own administration. He'd reach across aisles and appoint Republicans and assorted non-Democrats, idealistically thinking (I assume) that inclusion in his gov't would be healthy and high-minded. Of course he didn't know they were snakes.

Kennedy was a smart man, brilliant even, but not being evil it was hard for him to anticipate and comprehend that depth of evil.

Good lesson for our times.

[Myra Bronstein]

Ashton

I never thought that I would say this, but you offer an extraordinary amount of "very sound thinking", on those occasions when you descend from that area of the stratosphere where I often find you. I also look forward to your "Timeline".

Charlie Black

Yes. And I'm a fan of timelines because context is critical to true understanding. The more timelines the better. I look at them in the Seminars section all the time, and I work on combining them. Pieces of the puzzle.

[Myra Bronstein]

Greg,

Wasn't the designated patsy in for the canceled Chicago trip a John Bircher, or at least Birch-dipped?

Don't know. Do you recall the name?

Thomas Arthur Vallee was a member of the John Birch Society

Steve Thomas

Thank you Steve!

If you could share a source that'd be even better.

The thing that I find curious is that they were scapegoating the Birch Society with the Chicago patsy. How would that have helped them to justify an invasion of Cuba--ostensibly a major goal of the murder. ...Unless Paul is correct in his theory that Castro was a CIA ally.

I wonder who the pasty was for the Miami trip.

[Myra Bronstein]

Thank you, Charles. That was very gentlemanly of you to acknowledge points of alignment despite areas of considerable disagreement. And while I'm glad we have this point of agreement, Ms. Pease deserves all the acknowledgment, just to keep things in order.

Ashton

I would like to read more by Ms. Pease. All I've read is... what's in this thread.