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Shot from the North


John Dolva
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John, you're getting a twofer response in this one message.

free your mind from the turgid miasma of a shot from the front or back

Okay: I am as Ellen DeGeneres contemplating argyle socks. Ommmmmmmmm... (Does this mean I'm now a lesbian trapped in a man's body?)

Ashton, that's excellent. Remember that the shot happened a moment before 313 and that Jackie and John, were like in this image at that time.

John Dolva's montage from his message:

jdmontage.jpg

Jackie is still not in line and the area is just clear of spectators. Ideal.
Mmmmmmmmmmm... Maybe not.

Yes, you put the Zapruder angle of the Kennedys correctly into your montage, but in the 3D model there's a problem with that (all standing caveats for the model in full force and effect).

Here is the model's Zapruder view of the head shot moment, and it seems to align with the JFK-Jacquie images in your montage:

zapviewforpergshot.jpg

That's the good news. But then here is a new more refined view of the Pergola Man's angle on the exact same scene:

FromPergola2CUNEW.jpg

That faint dotted line is a construction line I created from the location at the Pergola you've shown to JFK so I could place the "camera" right on it. I realize it doesn't go exactly through the head, but the view to the head on that line isn't a significant deviation.

I'm trying here.

Robin, thank's for all the images...

Ditto, with feeling. (Apologies to Terry for the plagiarism. :rolleyes: )

This perhaps explains why the limo braked . The shot is so close that Greer hears it almost instantly and as his foot is probably hovering over the brake pedal, he instantly reacts and the forward tilt of Kennedy's head seen in 313 occurs.

Horse puckey.

Not a single other physicality in the limo exhibits the abrupt forward motion of JFK's head at Z313, and the motion is primarily from the neck, with comparatively minimal forward motion of his torso.

Say "Ommmmmmmm...." Free your mind of any such physics-exempt metaphysical braking, Grasshopper.

Ashton

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Guest Gary Loughran

FWIW, a reaction time of under .1 second is deemed impossible for a human. Anything quicker is anticipation e.g. a false start. This I believe would rule out the braking suggestion.

.2 second reaction is considered extremely fast. For example tests where a trigger such as when the candidate sees a red light switched on they must press a button. This will typically result in .2 second average and this includes the knowledge that a trigger is forthcoming. With practice one can get less than .2 regularly in this test, but after a break the reactions slow again.

Even if one argued Greer was aware a shot was imminent (anticipation), there is absolutely no way his timing could be so impeccable. Unless he began braking in advance of the shot, to which John and Franks work seems to rule out.

Ash any chance of replying in the CIA thread it would make a nice crimbo present to know your specific views.

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Ash any chance of replying in the CIA thread it would make a nice crimbo present to know your specific views.

Absolutely, Gary, and I have been working on it. There seems to have been an oversight, though, on the day I was born, because I was only issued one body. Even working it 'round the clock and beating nearly to death with work doesn't seem to get everything done, and I have to set some kind of stupid priorities. The moment small cracks opened in the time continuum, I was hell-bent to catch up on some of the backlogged requests on the model (over in yet another thread) and it is pretty time-intensive. But I'll be there...

Ashton

Edited by Ashton Gray
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I'm convinced. This is correct. If there was a braking, it cannot be in reaction to sound or sight. I'll continue to look at the limo speed and see if indeed there is a braking at all. The frames are blurred and to some extent any decicion of where it is in any frame is a matter of choice. Perhaps by looking at a number of frames around this one can see where it should be if the speed is constant and see if that shows anything.

Jackie is lower than Kennedy. As the view goes from Zaps position to the shooter the vertical separation changes. So the inset of 312 on the model view must have both the horizontal and vertical adjusted. I'll put togehter a illustration to show how I think it should be, howerever that's for tomorrow as the festivities are here. Either way, for a shooter aiming at the head, Jackie is not in line. It might be close, but she's not in line.

Edited by John Dolva
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Guest Gary Loughran
Ash any chance of replying in the CIA thread it would make a nice crimbo present to know your specific views.

Absolutely, Gary, and I have been working on it. There seems to have been an oversight, though, on the day I was born, because I was only issued one body. Even working it 'round the clock and beating nearly to death with work doesn't seem to get everything done, and I have to set some kind of stupid priorities. The moment small cracks opened in the time continuum, I was hell-bent to catch up on some of the backlogged requests on the model (over in yet another thread) and it is pretty time-intensive. But I'll be there...

Ashton

I thought you might have had some elves devilishly working around the clock to ensure we all got our presents this year. :rolleyes:

Thanks for the reply...I have a view on your model I'd like to see as well, but I'll leave that until...

John, keep up the good work in this and other threads I'm in awe of the depths yourself, Ash and Frank amongst many many others, go to in search of the truth. The ease with which you share this information is a credit to yourselves and the community.

Have a good one!

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Thomas,

Thanks, If John doesn't mind we can continue here, or better yet I should take this to its own thread.

(see "Cubans Packing In The Plaza?")

Its only fair to Mr. Dolva since he provided me the same courtesy.

John,

Yeah, I just know it as a cupola or shelter#3 from the "locals" and the Roberdeau diagram.

It should be remembered that Zapruder, Sitzman and Hesters moved into the shelter (cupola) quickly after. Could the "Cop" maybe gone around the pergola to the east and by cupola #4? This after running into Smith and/or Summers. Bothun 4 shows someone going that way.

Once together with the woman, he closes up the trench coat and she gives him the Generic Police Badged Hat(Highway Patrol) for the getaway.

Robin,

Great shots of the shed, interesting stuff as always!

More after Santa gets through wrapping presents,

Ed

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Thank's for the consideration, Ed. I don't mind.

Ed, interesting. That could be.

Sitzman is a bit waffly about what exactly she did and when she went in to the cupola. She says she went first down hill where she spoke to a FBI guy, the went uphill and behind, no into, hangon a minute, was it in or behind, anyway, after some bla bla ended up in the pergola at some point.

Altgens 8 shows Zap leaning against the place he took the film from, apparently looking in the direction he thought the shot came from. There is a gap in everyones timing to account for. Sitzman didn't go straight into the cupola.

And I missed this before: Yes , the Annexe, and there, Harry.

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quote name='Ed LeDoux' date='Dec 25 2006, 10:46 AM' post='86296']

Thomas,

Thanks, If John doesn't mind we can continue here, or better yet I should take this to its own thread.

(see "Cubans Packing In The Plaza?")

Its only fair to Mr. Dolva since he provided me the same courtesy.

John,

Yeah, I just know it as a cupola or shelter#3 from the "locals" and the Roberdeau diagram.

It should be remembered that Zapruder, Sitzman and Hesters moved into the shelter (cupola) quickly after. Could the "Cop" maybe gone around the pergola to the east and by cupola #4? This after running into Smith and/or Summers. Bothun 4 shows someone going that way.

Once together with the woman, he closes up the trench coat and she gives him the Generic Police Badged Hat(Highway Patrol) for the getaway.

Robin,

Great shots of the shed, interesting stuff as always!

More after Santa gets through wrapping presents,

Ed

Close up of the shadow man.

[

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Some have speculated that the white patch seen on the grass in the Z-FILM could be the tear of backing from a polariod photo.

Look at the bottom of this image, there appears to be a square patch on the grass. ?

Edited by Robin Unger
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Robin -"Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!"-From old radio show "The Shadow"

John,

>Sitzman is a bit waffly about what exactly she did and when she went in to the cupola. She says she went first down hill where she spoke to a FBI guy, the went uphill and behind, no into, hangon a minute, was it in or behind, anyway, after some bla bla ended up in the pergola at some point.

Altgens 8 shows Zap leaning against the place he took the film from, apparently looking in the direction he thought the shot came from. There is a gap in everyones timing to account for. Sitzman didn't go straight into the cupola.<

Weigman is a clock. He shot 36 unedited seconds of film from after the second shot. He ran to the knoll with his camera running. He is a gauge for when the Zman and Sitzman did what and when. Take a look.

Edited by Ed LeDoux
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Ed, for some reason the image doesn't appear. Could you check, please?

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Ed, there seems to be inconsistencies on the timing there. Perhaps you could describe how you see it? (I'm assuming you are meaning after headshot?) The couple on the ground in Wiegman sit there a while, and the guy gets up and rushes off heroically to protect a collumn in the collonnade, while leaving his girlfriend to bring up the rear. This takes some time and is not visible in the after sitting down photos/frames. And there is still Sitzmans own statement of what she did and exactly when she did get to the cupola. It'd be great to sort all this out and get a seamless timeline of those movements. It has come up on a number of other occasions with differing opinions and nothing finally resolved.

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Weigman is a clock. He shot 36 unedited seconds of film from after the second shot. He ran to the knoll with his camera running. He is a gauge for when the Zman and Sitzman did what and when. Take a look.

If you start the Weigman film and time it it takes 36 seconds.

Many others have timed it not just me.

He started filming after the second shot was heard by him.

He gets out of the camera car and runs to the knoll with the camera (clock) running.

When he finishes he runs to the passing camera car and gets back in.

Believe me this is one thing I have looked at A LOT in trying to find Lem Johns in the plaza.

Okay if weigman is a clock and is only shooting 36 seconds of film the we know within a few seconds what and where everyone else is. As you can see he is to the knoll and shooting the Hesters(Mr and Mrs H) on the ground in 20 seconds, no gaps. if you look at the other photo beside it (arrow "same") you will see Zapruder and Sitzman are off the pedestal.

The next image "25 sec" is Z and Sitz walking towards the Hesters, perhaps to talk to them or tell them something, But anyways they do not go all the way to them as Weigman is filming them and Z isn't in the frame. As you mentioned Mr. H gets up hugs the column for a few seconds and then Weigman turns away to film the Newmans.

So if Mr. H gets up while Weigman is filming, it is in the first 20 seconds of the last rifle shot, they (the Hesters) are on the ground in that pose.

Mr H does not get back down on the ground with her, agreed. He (Mr H) goes to the cupola,

and she follows behind in a few seconds. agreed. As he hugs the column she (Mrs H) is getting up to go to him. Thats when Weigman turns the camera on the Newmans.

After a few frames of the Newmans (4 seconds), Weigman pans the street and back to the area where the H's WERE and we see the Chisms running Southwest to the sidewalk. So Weigman is facing North.

In my collage the image "weigman 30 sec" is when he is filming North (see Mrs Chism just entering the frame on the right) Just visible is Z or Mr H in the cupola (the sign hides Mrs H).

In my collage the image "Weigman 36 seconds" he has finished filming and is starting to head for the passing camera car.

Mr Z is in the cupola and Mrs H is almost in. all this happens within the first minute after the second shot is fired.

Ed

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