Robert Howard Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 As someone very interested in resolving unanswered unresolved issues, pertaining to the assassination of Pres Kennedy, I discarded the advice of JFK Assassination sages from yesteryear who advised that one should "stick to a particular area of research and stick to it." The logic or reasoning for [better or for worse] is illustrated by what has happened to various researchers in following such advice, and it is, "generally speaking" good advice. What has happened occasionally is one can devote 10 or 15 years of research to a particular area, and then find that new information has surfaced which can put one "back to the drawing board." I also sacrificed personal glory i.e. 'bestselling book' realizing that time is slip, sliding away, because I want to live in a country that IS a city shining on a hill, as it is said and not some Orwellian nightmare that resembles the former Soviet Union So....even though I am wholly cognizant that other individuals are more knowledgeable, I will mention that the Dealey Plaza Echo, Volume 1, Issue 2 The Austrailian Connection, by Enid Gray, mentions "On reading Open Secrets Vol. 1 # 3, printed in April 1995, I came across this very intriguing report 'Mary Ferrell directed the Review Board to CIA Documents concerning SVATAPLUK OSVALD, a Czech National reported on in October 1963 by the Mexico City [station?] to other CIA divisions and who Ferrell believes is the Oswald photographed at the Soviet Embassy.' " See http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=16 Does anyone have an update on this, something a little more current? My own area of inquiry reveals that the CIA was indeed communicating to other stations re this person; Which begs the question was this area part of the CIA Mexico City Station's [bull _ _ _ _ spin apparatus, or a legitimate communication?] According to CIA/RIF 104-10098-10185 SVATAPLUK OSVALD was.....ostensibly "born 23 December 1921 Brno Special Passport G-013082/18240/62" See: http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=441362 When researching the muddy waters of the JFK Assassination regarding ANYTHING whether it is government documents, assertions of historical figures, or, most importantly researchers, and there are many, many, good researchers, don't get me wrong, it is wise to remember what Pres. Reagan said about the U.S.S.R "Trust but verify," it beats the hell out of some of the recent theatrics.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Root Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 (edited) Robert I too have speculated on this question: "If it was not Lee Harvey Oswald that visited the Cuban and Soviet Embassy then who was it?" If it was not our Oswald we have another, perhaps even more, important question: "If our Oswald was not visiting those embassy's, why was he in Mexico and who did he visit while he was there?" Lee's visit to Mexico is well documented. Proof of his visits to the embassys seems to be clouded within the frame of a picture of a man who is not LHO. We know for a fact that the pictures are not Lee. We are left to conclude that the best evidence of Oswald's meetings with the Soviets and the Cubans (the pictures) is false so we can ask, "did Oswald even meet with those groups?" Who would have known that those pictures of "Oswald" existed before the assassination took place and that Oswald was actually in Mexico? My bet is that if there was a conspiracy the conspirators would have had access to that information. We do know that Oswald did attempt to contact someone by the name of John Hurt after the assassination. It is interesting to note that Winston Scott (who was in Mexico at the time) was involved with Operation Stella Polaris as was John J. McCloy, Edwin Walker, Frank Rowlett and Meredith Gardner (all names that would be tied to Oswald or the investigation of Oswald in relationship to the death of the President. Was the protection of Venona secret (of which we now know that Operation Stella Polaris was a major part of )what allowed the conspirators the ability to align the complete intelligence apparatus of the United States in a coverup of who Lee Harvey Oswald really was without that same intelligence apparatus having been involved in the assassination itself? We could speculate that Oswald's attempt to contact John Hurt was his death warrent. For the conspirators it may have served the double purpose of alligning the intelligence agencys of several nations to assure Oswald's elimination while at the same time distracting all suspicion away from them as others became responsible for Oswald's death cover story. Jim Root Edited February 6, 2007 by Jim Root Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Howard Posted February 7, 2007 Author Share Posted February 7, 2007 RobertI too have speculated on this question: "If it was not Lee Harvey Oswald that visited the Cuban and Soviet Embassy then who was it?" If it was not our Oswald we have another, perhaps even more, important question: "If our Oswald was not visiting those embassy's, why was he in Mexico and who did he visit while he was there?" Lee's visit to Mexico is well documented. Proof of his visits to the embassys seems to be clouded within the frame of a picture of a man who is not LHO. We know for a fact that the pictures are not Lee. We are left to conclude that the best evidence of Oswald's meetings with the Soviets and the Cubans (the pictures) is false so we can ask, "did Oswald even meet with those groups?" Who would have known that those pictures of "Oswald" existed before the assassination took place and that Oswald was actually in Mexico? My bet is that if there was a conspiracy the conspirators would have had access to that information. We do know that Oswald did attempt to contact someone by the name of John Hurt after the assassination. It is interesting to note that Winston Scott (who was in Mexico at the time) was involved with Operation Stella Polaris as was John J. McCloy, Edwin Walker, Frank Rowlett and Meredith Gardner (all names that would be tied to Oswald or the investigation of Oswald in relationship to the death of the President. Was the protection of Venona secret (of which we now know that Operation Stella Polaris was a major part of )what allowed the conspirators the ability to align the complete intelligence apparatus of the United States in a coverup of who Lee Harvey Oswald really was without that same intelligence apparatus having been involved in the assassination itself? We could speculate that Oswald's attempt to contact John Hurt was his death warrent. For the conspirators it may have served the double purpose of alligning the intelligence agencys of several nations to assure Oswald's elimination while at the same time distracting all suspicion away from them as others became responsible for Oswald's death cover story. Jim Root Jim, as always your research and insights are cutting edge, to coin a phrase. I agree that the link's discovered in the last few years have definitely added some clarity to the big picture. Regarding this thread, my intention was too point out that in the myriad of de-classified documents there are definitely candidates for the other "Oswald," [in the case of this thread, SVATAPLUK OSVALD seems to, at least be a candidate, for the Mexico City impostor. I believe that besides researching the records of the various investigations, as well as NARA's de-classified documents....when one reads the research of Peter Dale Scott, William Turner, John Newman, Larry Hancock, Hal Verb, Bill Kelly Bill Davy, Jim DiEugenio, and a host of others [some of whom are members of this Forum] a picture emerges [that besides showing several different intelligence operations, Cuba, mail-intercepts, Cold-War, FBI monitoring of extreme right wing groups, et cetera] of a Lee Harvey Oswald who has to have been one of the most perplexing individuals I have ever run across....I will, leave it at that for now; As always, I appreciate your, beyond interesting analysis..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Gaal Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 (edited) SVATAPLUCK is an odd last name. There was a prince with that name I recall. I am not an expert ,but it may be closer to Moldavian than CZECH. It could ,I think, translate as HOLY REGIMENT. THANKS sg Edited February 7, 2007 by Steven Gaal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Parker Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 SVATAPLUCK is an odd last name. There was a prince with that name I recall. I am not an expert ,but it may be closer to Moldavian than CZECH. It could ,I think, translate as HOLY REGIMENT. THANKS sg Steve & Robert, there is a SVATOPLUK Osvald (note the slight difference in spelling) listed in directory of Czech officials put together by CIA's National Foreign Assessment Center in 1983. FWIW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 (edited) SVATAPLUCK is an odd last name. There was a prince with that name I recall. I am not an expert ,but it may be closer to Moldavian than CZECH. It could ,I think, translate as HOLY REGIMENT. THANKS sg Steve & Robert, there is a SVATOPLUK Osvald (note the slight difference in spelling) listed in directory of Czech officials put together by CIA's National Foreign Assessment Center in 1983. FWIW __________________________________________ Steven, Google "Svatapluck." There is no such name in the Czech Republic or Slovakia. I lived in Moravia for six years. It's the eastern part of the of the Czech Republic (which itself is half of former CZECH-ko-SLOVAKIA). We in the west call the other part of the Czech Republic (in which Prague is situated) "Bohemia," but the people who live in the Czech Republic call it Czech(ia). Confusing, yes? The Czech Republic is composed of two states/semi-autonomous regions, "Bohemia"/Czech(ia) and Moravia (not Moldavia). The "capital" of Moravia is the beautiful city of Brno (as in Bren Gun; BRnoENfield). I immediately knew that "Svatapluck" looked very "fishy" indeed as a possible Czech (i.e. "Bohemian" and/or Moravian) or Slovak name. That's why I googled it. Zilch. Nada. Nothing. My intuition tells me that the CIA's Double Check Corporation was a play on words. Maybe "Double Czech" would have been more appropriate... Comments, anyone? Please? Purr-dy please with sugga-sugga all over it?? Wasn't there a rather mysterious guy in Interpen by the last name of "Novak?" The name "Novak" is like "Smith" in the U.S.A. You can't get anymore Czech than "Novak"... --Thomas P.S. Svatopluk I was prince of the principality of Nitra from the 850's until 871. Then he was king of Great Moravia from 871 until 894. Google "Svatopluk" and you can learn all about it. Hell, you might even decide to move to Brno and teach English there for six years... __________________________________________ Edited February 10, 2007 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 (edited) SVATAPLUCK is an odd last name. There was a prince with that name I recall. I am not an expert ,but it may be closer to Moldavian than CZECH. It could ,I think, translate as HOLY REGIMENT. THANKS sg Steve & Robert, there is a SVATOPLUK Osvald (note the slight difference in spelling) listed in directory of Czech officials put together by CIA's National Foreign Assessment Center in 1983. FWIW __________________________________________ Steven, Google "Svatapluck." There is no such name in the "Czech" or Slovak. I lived in Moravia for six years. It's the eastern part of the of the Czech Republic (which itself is half of former CZECH-ko-SLOVAKIA). We in the west call the other part of the Czech Republic (in which Prague is situated) "Bohemia," but the people who live in the Czech Republic call it Czech(ia). Confusing, yes? The Czech Republic is composed of two states/semi-autonomous regions, "Bohemia"/Czech(ia) and Moravia (not Moldavia). The "capital" of Moravia is the beautiful city of Brno (as in Bren Gun; BRnoENfield). I immediately knew that "Svatapluck" looked very "fishy" indeed as a possible Czech (i.e. "Bohemian" and/or Moravian) or Slovak name. That's why I googled it. Zilch. Nada. Nothing. My intuition tells me that the CIA's Double Check Corporation was a play on words. Maybe "Double Czech" would have been more appropriate... Comments, anyone? Please? Purr-dy please with sugga-sugga all over it?? BTW, wasn't there a guy in INTERPEN by the name of "Karl (Carl) Novak?" (The name "Novak" is like "Smith" in the U.S.A. You can't be anymore Czech or Slovak than "Novak"...) --Thomas P.S. Svatopluk I was prince of the principality of Nitra from the 850's until 871. Then he was king of Great Moravia from 871 until 894. Google "Svatopluk" and you can learn all about it. (Hell, you might even decide to move to Brno and teach English there for six years...) __________________________________________ _______________________ Bump-O-Rama. _______________________ Edited February 7, 2007 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 (edited) "SVATAPLUCK is an odd last name. "Svatapluck."" Svata with a ' over the last a appears a common name , person and place. Pluk is probably correct, not Pluck. (and Pluk= regiment) So it could be more fruitful looking for Svata' Pluk Os... I came across of many czhek slovak ukraine with those. As my interest is the EinsatzGruppen SS Kommando among whom were Oswalds (Oswald Pohl and others) I created searches along that line and many pages with no english. However, a visit to the Uni library beckons there... Edited February 7, 2007 by John Dolva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 (edited) "SVATAPLUCK is an odd last name."Svatapluck."" Svata with a ' over the last a appears a common name , person and place. Pluk is probably correct, not Pluck. (and Pluk= regiment) So it could be more fruitful looking for Svata' Pluk Os... I came across of many czhek slovak ukraine with those. As my interest is the EinsatzGruppen SS Kommando among whom were Oswalds (Oswald Pohl and others) I created searches along that line and many pages with no english. However, a visit to the Uni library beckons there... __________________________________ Try googling "Svatopluk instead. __________________________________ Edited February 7, 2007 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 (edited) SVATAPLUCK is an odd last name. There was a prince with that name I recall. I am not an expert ,but it may be closer to Moldavian than CZECH. It could ,I think, translate as HOLY REGIMENT. THANKS sg Steve & Robert, there is a SVATOPLUK Osvald (note the slight difference in spelling) listed in directory of Czech officials put together by CIA's National Foreign Assessment Center in 1983. FWIW __________________________________________ Steven, Google "Svatapluck." There is no such name in the "Czech" or Slovak. I lived in Moravia for six years. It's the eastern part of the of the Czech Republic (which itself is half of former CZECH-ko-SLOVAKIA). We in the west call the other part of the Czech Republic (in which Prague is situated) "Bohemia," but the people who live in the Czech Republic call it Czech(ia). Confusing, yes? The Czech Republic is composed of two states/semi-autonomous regions, "Bohemia"/Czech(ia) and Moravia (not Moldavia). The "capital" of Moravia is the beautiful city of Brno (as in Bren Gun; BRnoENfield). I immediately knew that "Svatapluck" looked very "fishy" indeed as a possible Czech (i.e. "Bohemian" and/or Moravian) or Slovak name. That's why I googled it. Zilch. Nada. Nothing. My intuition tells me that the CIA's Double Check Corporation was a play on words. Maybe "Double Czech" would have been more appropriate... Comments, anyone? Please? Purr-dy please with sugga-sugga all over it?? BTW, wasn't there a guy in INTERPEN by the name of "Karl (Carl) Novak?" (For your information, the Czech-o-Slovak name Novak is like "Smith" in the U.S.A. In other words, you can't be more Czech or Slovak than "Novak"...) So,..... what do we know about this Mr. "Novak" of INTERPEN fame, hmm? --Thomas P.S. Svatopluk I was prince of the principality of Nitra from the 850's until 871. Then he was king of Great Moravia from 871 until 894. Google "Svatopluk" and you can learn all about it. (Hell, you might even decide to move to Brno and teach English there for six years...) __________________________________________ _______________________ Bump-O-Rama. _______________________ ________________________________ Bump, Bump, Bump, Bump........... (get the "picture?") ________________________________ Edited February 7, 2007 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted February 7, 2007 Share Posted February 7, 2007 SVATAPLUCK is an odd last name. There was a prince with that name I recall. I am not an expert ,but it may be closer to Moldavian than CZECH. It could ,I think, translate as HOLY REGIMENT. THANKS sg Steve & Robert, there is a SVATOPLUK Osvald (note the slight difference in spelling) listed in directory of Czech officials put together by CIA's National Foreign Assessment Center in 1983. FWIW __________________________________________ Steven, Google "Svatapluck." There is no such name in the "Czech" or Slovak. I lived in Moravia for six years. It's the eastern part of the of the Czech Republic (which itself is half of former CZECH-ko-SLOVAKIA). We in the west call the other part of the Czech Republic (in which Prague is situated) "Bohemia," but the people who live in the Czech Republic call it Czech(ia). Confusing, yes? The Czech Republic is composed of two states/semi-autonomous regions, "Bohemia"/Czech(ia) and Moravia (not Moldavia). The "capital" of Moravia is the beautiful city of Brno (as in Bren Gun; BRnoENfield). I immediately knew that "Svatapluck" looked very "fishy" indeed as a possible Czech (i.e. "Bohemian" and/or Moravian) or Slovak name. That's why I googled it. Zilch. Nada. Nothing. My intuition tells me that the CIA's Double Check Corporation was a play on words. Maybe "Double Czech" would have been more appropriate... Comments, anyone? Please? Purr-dy please with sugga-sugga all over it?? BTW, wasn't there a guy in INTERPEN by the name of "Karl (Carl) Novak?" (For your information, the Czech-o-Slovak name Novak is like "Smith" in the U.S.A. In other words, you can't be more Czech or Slovak than "Novak"...) So,..... what do we know about this Mr. "Novak" of INTERPEN fame, hmm? --Thomas P.S. Svatopluk I was prince of the principality of Nitra from the 850's until 871. Then he was king of Great Moravia from 871 until 894. Google "Svatopluk" and you can learn all about it. (Hell, you might even decide to move to Brno and teach English there for six years...) __________________________________________ _______________________ Bump-O-Rama. _______________________ ________________________________ Bump, Bump, Bump, Bump........... (get the "picture?") ________________________________ __________________________ Interesting post, Tomas! --Thomas lol P.S. Pardon my "behaviour," Mr. Simkin, Len Colby, et al ... __________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Gaal Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR COMMENTS. please let me add that SVATA in Romany is stor/ies. So the name could mean regiment of stories . This is a good pun...a regiment of lies.... see below. Please let me again add that David Ferrie & Fred Crisman both took part in Gypsy immigration. Imagine Gypsy/CIA OPS inside the USA ....... thanks again http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:AxDvb...cd=48&gl=us SVATA may mean saint or holy Svatá Lucie (Saint Lucia). Svat˘ Kry‰tof a Nevis (Saint Kitts a Nevis) ... Office of the Moldavian Republic. tel.: 00373/2/228635 ... portal.justice.cz/ms/soubor.aspx?id=41749 - Similar pages PDF file Holy Roman Empire Svatá říše římská ... n* Moldavia Moldávie sl:,opts:[zem.] n* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 Please let me again add that David Ferrie & Fred Crisman both took part in Gypsy immigration. Imagine Gypsy/CIA OPS inside the USA ....... thanks again ______________________________ Steven, Sounds interesting. Please elucidate, again..... --Thomas ______________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Howard Posted February 8, 2007 Author Share Posted February 8, 2007 Please let me again add that David Ferrie & Fred Crisman both took part in Gypsy immigration. Imagine Gypsy/CIA OPS inside the USA ....... thanks again ______________________________ Steven, Sounds interesting. Please elucidate, again..... --Thomas ______________________________ I hate to sound like the proverbial moron [boy your leaving yourself wide open on that one], but I didn't quite get the abbreviation Brno, somehow I don't think it stands for Borneo....Any elucidators? BTW, on a somewhat related aspect of all this, Joe Backes posted the folowing "look" at 2 different documents on one of his 1st-13th Batch de-classified document reviews, sorry I don't have the URL.... "Document # 104-10015-10334is a one page cable fromJeremy L. Niarcos to MFR. It is titled "Mexico City Station support activities assignments this date re: assassination." It is dated 11/22/63. This is a horrible copy of the original document and barely legible. It reports the activities of LIEMPTY, the following three seem to be part of LIEMPTY, LICALLA, LIMITED, LILYRIC, and there seems to be another, a fourth, that ends with ENDE. LIEMBRACE and LIFEAT do not subdivide, at least not in this document, and appear to be as important as LIEMPTY." Someone, "Scelso"?, likes what LIEMBRACE is doing? "Document # 104-10015-10289 is a two page cable from R. L. Easby to director, CIA. It reports that Oswald ordered the rifle from Kleins, ordered in name Alek Hidell but sent to P.O.Box under Oswald's name, when arrested Oswald had Selective Service card in his possession in name Alek Hidell, this name appeared on F.P.C.C. leaflets in New Orleans although Oswald name also appeared underneath. The FBI had not established as of noon November 23, 1963 whether Hidell exists or alias used by Oswald. There have been no Mexi traces of Hidell or variants. They are checking possibility that person photographed entering Soviet embassy October 1 and 4 and Cuban embassy October 15 might be Hidell. They are supplying Mexicans multiple copies of FBI photos of Oswald and station photos of unidentified man appropriately cropped for hotel investigation." Well, this is very interesting. Oswald left Mexico October 3, right? So, it cannot be Oswald on October 4 and 15, right? What is the "hotel investigation" supposed to be?" Thomas, regarding feedback on your comments, I pretty much agree with your outlook, I think there is another OSVALD person. See SVATAPLUK ----- OSVALD the following Czech national: Svatapluk OSVALD, born 23 Dec 1921, Brno, Special Passport G... JEAN (ALIAS OF JEAN NICOLAS OSVALD) (AKA DORVAL) OSWALD CIA Box 1, Folder 7 (MMF 1324) See Jean Osvald... JEAN NICOLAS (AKA JEAN OSWALD; AKA JEAN DORVAL) OSVALD -----... http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...wRec.do?id=7202 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antti Hynonen Posted February 8, 2007 Share Posted February 8, 2007 (edited) Brno, Not an abbreviation in this case, but a city in the CZ republic. Click here for details: http://www.brno.cz/index.php?lan=en Robert Howard Posted Today, 01:09 PM QUOTE(Thomas Graves @ Feb 8 2007, 11:03 AM) QUOTE(Steven Gaal @ Feb 8 2007, 01:13 AM) Please let me again add that David Ferrie & Fred Crisman both took part in Gypsy immigration. Imagine Gypsy/CIA OPS inside the USA ....... thanks again ______________________________ Steven, Sounds interesting. Please elucidate, again..... --Thomas ______________________________ I hate to sound like the proverbial moron [boy your leaving yourself wide open on that one], but I didn't quite get the abbreviation Brno, somehow I don't think it stands for Borneo....Any elucidators? Edited February 8, 2007 by Antti Hynonen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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