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William Kelly
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Is there a 1963 picture of Carl Mather, of Garland, Texas?

James Richards? (Antti Hynonen)

I do remember seeing an image of Mather but I can't locate it at the moment. He doesn't look anything like Oswald as I recall.

When Lee Harvey Oswald returned to Texas from Soviet Russia, George DeMohrenschildt introduced him to retired Navy Admiral Chester Bruton, an executive at Collins Radio, with the idea of Oswald getting a job there, as he had worked in a radio factory in Minsk, USSR. Oswald and Marina visited Bruton with DeMohrenschilt.

At the time of the assassination Adml. Bruton was working on a top-secret nuclear submarine communications project for Collins, with the Navy's nuclear sub radar and communications HQ being based at Woods Hole, Massachusetts, close neighbors of Michael Paine's family island. (Bill Kelly)

Bruton was the director of the fleet communications division of Alpha Corp., which was a subsidiary of Collins Radio. His job was to provide integrated communications systems for naval vessels and aircraft.

FWIW.

H.C. Bruton below.

James

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......

No where is there any statement that White & the man exchanged glances. BK, do you have a source for your statement that they "exchanged glances," or is this your invention or interpretation? I don't think we should exaggerate without solid proof. Regrettably, White's evidence is very questionable & impeachable.

Miles,

My source is Wes Wise, who I tape recorded an interview with in the parking lot of the restaurant over a decade ago. II also have copies of the original FBI reports, read the HSCA memos, and tracked down and talked on the phone with Jack Morarity, one of the HSCA investigators who looked into that area.

White is dead. No exageration needed. The FBI is responsible for trying to imeach White rather than properly investigate the car, the Collins connections or anything.

I wasn't asking you to pay closer attention to White, every witness can be discredited. If you want to tackle Mr. White go ahead. He was a mechanic and unlikely to have mistook a two tone blue and white two tone 58 Plymouth and a Red Ford. Attacking White's credibilitly won't work at this late date. It's too late because we are far past TXPP4537.

As I say in the first paragraph, hard evidence is preferable, and the slip of paper he wrote down PP4537 becomes evidence. It could have been written down and delivered to Wes Wise by the devil, and it wouldn't matter if you discredited the devil. The evidence carries its own weight.

Since my COPA presentation and since writing that article many years ago, the state of the research is light years ahead, and it's too late to throw road blocks.

It's a shame you don't just research the Phoenix connections and make some real contributions, and leave Mr. White alone.

BK

Edited by William Kelly
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Is there a 1963 picture of Carl Mather, of Garland, Texas?

James Richards? (Antti Hynonen)

I do remember seeing an image of Mather but I can't locate it at the moment. He doesn't look anything like Oswald as I recall.

When Lee Harvey Oswald returned to Texas from Soviet Russia, George DeMohrenschildt introduced him to retired Navy Admiral Chester Bruton, an executive at Collins Radio, with the idea of Oswald getting a job there, as he had worked in a radio factory in Minsk, USSR. Oswald and Marina visited Bruton with DeMohrenschilt.

At the time of the assassination Adml. Bruton was working on a top-secret nuclear submarine communications project for Collins, with the Navy's nuclear sub radar and communications HQ being based at Woods Hole, Massachusetts, close neighbors of Michael Paine's family island. (Bill Kelly)

Bruton was the director of the fleet communications division of Alpha Corp., which was a subsidiary of Collins Radio. His job was to provide integrated communications systems for naval vessels and aircraft.

FWIW.

H.C. Bruton below.

James

Thanks for that James, I didn't know about Alpha Corp. How DeMorn came to meet Bruton is very bizzare. DeMorn says he knew the previous owner of Bruton's house and built a barbeque or something near the pool and just came by and knocked on the door and introduced himself to Bruton and invited himself in. Then took Marina over to swim in the pool one day, when Oswald shows up. Oswald and Bruton didn't get along very well.

I tracked down Bruton to DC area but when I finally got his phone number and called it, his daughter answered and said he had just passed away and was taking care of his effects.

BK

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......

No where is there any statement that White & the man exchanged glances. BK, do you have a source for your statement that they "exchanged glances," or is this your invention or interpretation? I don't think we should exaggerate without solid proof. Regrettably, White's evidence is very questionable & impeachable.

BK: "My source is Wes Wise, who I tape recorded an interview with in the parking lot of the restaurant over a decade ago. II also have copies of the original FBI reports, read the HSCA memos, and tracked down and talked on the phone with Jack Morarity, one of the HSCA investigators who looked into that area."

BK, I have no quibble with the id of the car nor with the reality of White's accurately copying down of the car's license number.

As I said, for me, the initial focus was the accuracy of White's identification of the driver of the car. Why? Remember, White is saying the driver was LHO! Now if that is impossible because of timing of LHO's movements that day, then the implication could be that the driver might have been a LHO impostor. If that is so, then what could that mean?

Your source for White's "exchanging glances" with the driver becomes critical. Unfortunately, if the source is Wes Wise a decade ago, then there are fading memory issues, obviously.

If you have a tape of Wise saying that they "exchanged glances," it would be very helpful & important to get his exact words on the record. Can you put the tape into mp3 file form & put same up here on the forum as a download or a link? :rolleyes:

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Thanks for that James, I didn't know about Alpha Corp. How DeMorn came to meet Bruton is very bizzare. DeMorn says he knew the previous owner of Bruton's house and built a barbeque or something near the pool and just came by and knocked on the door and introduced himself to Bruton and invited himself in. Then took Marina over to swim in the pool one day, when Oswald shows up. Oswald and Bruton didn't get along very well.

I tracked down Bruton to DC area but when I finally got his phone number and called it, his daughter answered and said he had just passed away and was taking care of his effects. (Bill Kelly)

Bill,

That is bizarre indeed. Do you know who the previous owner of the house was?

James

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......

No where is there any statement that White & the man exchanged glances. BK, do you have a source for your statement that they "exchanged glances," or is this your invention or interpretation? I don't think we should exaggerate without solid proof. Regrettably, White's evidence is very questionable & impeachable.

BK: "My source is Wes Wise, who I tape recorded an interview with in the parking lot of the restaurant over a decade ago. II also have copies of the original FBI reports, read the HSCA memos, and tracked down and talked on the phone with Jack Morarity, one of the HSCA investigators who looked into that area."

BK, I have no quibble with the id of the car nor with the reality of White's accurately copying down of the car's license number.

As I said, for me, the initial focus was the accuracy of White's identification of the driver of the car. Why? Remember, White is saying the driver was LHO! Now if that is impossible because of timing of LHO's movements that day, then the implication could be that the driver might have been a LHO impostor. If that is so, then what could that mean?

Your source for White's "exchanging glances" with the driver becomes critical. Unfortunately, if the source is Wes Wise a decade ago, then there are fading memory issues, obviously.

If you have a tape of Wise saying that they "exchanged glances," it would be very helpful & important to get his exact words on the record. Can you put the tape into mp3 file form & put same up here on the forum as a download or a link? ;)

James,

that's a negative on previous owner of Bruton's Dallas home. My source is DeMorn's "I'm a Patsy" manuscript.

Hi Miles,

Trying to figure out if it was LHO, an intentional imposter or mistaken ID is all speculation at this point. While White is dead, he did tell Wise they "exchanged glances," and you can take that for whatever its worth. I have a transcript of my taped interview with Wise, which I will try to find and post if you are really that interested.

The cassette tape is not of good quality, and stored away in DC two years ago when I thought I gave up on all this. I did try to dig out a taped interview with Chauncey Holt for Bob Vernon, and gave him transcripts of Holt interviews, and then he goes and puts them up on his "JFK Murder Solved" web site and charged people to read it. So I can only go so far on putting out the tapes. I will donate them all to either the COPA archives or AARC where researchers can access them someday.

For now, we're closer than ever to positively identifying the suspects in many questionable instances, and must be ready to present the evidence to Congressional Hearings and possible grand juries for legal action. Posting it on the internet would only allow the opposition, or idiots, to run interference.

Like I said, we have White/Wise covered, and if you have so much time on your hands, there's much more research needed right there in your Phoenix backyard.

Did you teach the Indians at the Phoenix school near the Vets Hospital?

Thanks,

Bill Kelly

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......

No where is there any statement that White & the man exchanged glances. BK, do you have a source for your statement that they "exchanged glances," or is this your invention or interpretation? I don't think we should exaggerate without solid proof. Regrettably, White's evidence is very questionable & impeachable.

BK: "My source is Wes Wise, who I tape recorded an interview with in the parking lot of the restaurant over a decade ago. II also have copies of the original FBI reports, read the HSCA memos, and tracked down and talked on the phone with Jack Morarity, one of the HSCA investigators who looked into that area."

BK, I have no quibble with the id of the car nor with the reality of White's accurately copying down of the car's license number.

As I said, for me, the initial focus was the accuracy of White's identification of the driver of the car. Why? Remember, White is saying the driver was LHO! Now if that is impossible because of timing of LHO's movements that day, then the implication could be that the driver might have been a LHO impostor. If that is so, then what could that mean?

Your source for White's "exchanging glances" with the driver becomes critical. Unfortunately, if the source is Wes Wise a decade ago, then there are fading memory issues, obviously.

If you have a tape of Wise saying that they "exchanged glances," it would be very helpful & important to get his exact words on the record. Can you put the tape into mp3 file form & put same up here on the forum as a download or a link? ;)

James,

that's a negative on previous owner of Bruton's Dallas home. My source is DeMorn's "I'm a Patsy" manuscript.

Hi Miles,

Trying to figure out if it was LHO, an intentional imposter or mistaken ID is all speculation at this point. While White is dead, he did tell Wise they "exchanged glances," and you can take that for whatever its worth. I have a transcript of my taped interview with Wise, which I will try to find and post if you are really that interested.

The cassette tape is not of good quality, and stored away in DC two years ago when I thought I gave up on all this. I did try to dig out a taped interview with Chauncey Holt for Bob Vernon, and gave him transcripts of Holt interviews, and then he goes and puts them up on his "JFK Murder Solved" web site and charged people to read it. So I can only go so far on putting out the tapes. I will donate them all to either the COPA archives or AARC where researchers can access them someday.

For now, we're closer than ever to positively identifying the suspects in many questionable instances, and must be ready to present the evidence to Congressional Hearings and possible grand juries for legal action. Posting it on the internet would only allow the opposition, or idiots, to run interference.

Like I said, we have White/Wise covered, and if you have so much time on your hands, there's much more research needed right there in your Phoenix backyard.

Did you teach the Indians at the Phoenix school near the Vets Hospital?

Thanks,

Bill Kelly

BK

Well, good on: "...we're closer than ever to positively identifying the suspects in many questionable instances,..."

Keep up the good work!

MS

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[quote name='Antti Hynonen' post='95895' date='Mar 1 2007, 10:45 AM'

Did you teach the Indians at the Phoenix school near the Vets Hospital?

Thanks,

Bill Kelly

BK

Well, good on: "...we're closer than ever to positively identifying the suspects in many questionable instances,..."

Keep up the good work!

MS

Miles,

My 89 year old mother says it isn't "work" unless I get paid for it.

You're not going to give up so easy are you? After all, this is the JFK Assassination Debate forum.

And you didn't answer my question after I tried to answer all of yours.

Did you teach the Indians at the school next to the Phoenix Vet Hospital?

Thanks,'

Bill Kelly

bkjfk3@yahoo.com

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......

Since, at this remove, there is not going to be an official investigation of the matter, one is left with deduction.

Miles, You have not been paying attention.

Also, consider that any intelligence network that can kill the president and lose $6 billion isn't concerned about justice or us determing the truth.

BK

BK, I ratcheted up my attention, following your instructions & I proceeded to have a look-see at White's evidence because if that is suspect or wobbly, then the house of cards may come tumbling down all over the place.

Now your article says, quote:

"White walked across the street to get closer and exchanged glances with the man, who quickly drove away. White wrote down the license tag PP4537 on a piece of paper and forgot about it until later that day when he saw Lee Harvey Oswald on television and recognized him as the man he saw acting suspiciously in the Plymouth earlier that afternoon."

"... and exchanged glances with the man,..."

Here's the problem: I could not find in:

OSWALD-TIPPIT ASSOCIATES

Staff Report of the Select Committee on Assassinations

U.S. House of Representatives

Ninety-fifth Congress Second Session

March 1979

any evidence that White & the man had actually exchanged glances . This is important, even critical, to the reliability & soundness of White's contention that he had seen LHO.

Here're the relevant passages:

17. Wise went to Pate to discuss the story with the mechanic.(33) The mechanic told Wise that after the assassination there were sirens blaring and police cars "all over the area" near the garage.(34) He noticed a man sitting in an irregularly parked car in the restaurant parking lot; the car was slightly hidden by a billboard.(35) The man in the car appeared to be hiding, according to the mechanic.(36) All of the circumstances seemed so suspicious that the mechanic went across the street to get a better look.(37) When he was about 10 or 15 yards from the car, the man turned around.(38) The mechanic was able then to get a good look at his face; he saw also that the man was wearing a white T-shirt.(39) He made a note of the license number of the car.(40)

26. T.F. White was interviewed by Special Agent Brown on December 13, 1963. In the interview, White said he saw a red car in the parking lot of the El Chico Restaurant at approximately 2 p.m. on November 22, 1963.(62) At the time of the interview, White said he believed the car to be a red 1961 Falcon with 1963 Texas license PP 4537.(63) White said he saw the man in the car from the side, and that when he saw pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald that night on television, he was identical with the man he had seen in the car that afternoon.(64) White said that after he saw the man sit in the car for a short time, the man left in the car at a high rate of speed, going west of Davis Street.(65)

White contradicts himself: first he sees the man's face & then he changes his story to that he saw the side of the man's head. :unsure:

No where is there any statement that White & the man exchanged glances. BK, do you have a source for your statement that they "exchanged glances," or is this your invention or interpretation? I don't think we should exaggerate without solid proof. Regrettably, White's evidence is very questionable & impeachable.

Miles, I'm a high school drop-out, so I don't want to get into a debate on English with a retired English teacher, but I do want to ask; couldn't the phrase "saw the man in the car from the side" be read two ways - one way being as you seemingly do - that the "side" being referred to was the side of the face - the other way being that the "side" indicates the side of the car. In the latter, the "side" would be White's viewing position when "the man turned around". Magically, "exchange of glances" now enabled.

Even if the latter interpretation does not conform to the rules of grammar, since it does fit with the original statement, it may, nevertheless, have been what was meant, no?

I do think in a certain percentage of cases, what look to be contradictory statements are really just the result of poor statement taking skills.

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Miles, I'm a high school drop-out, so I don't want to get into a debate on English with a retired English teacher, but I do want to ask; couldn't the phrase "saw the man in the car from the side" be read two ways - one way being as you seemingly do - that the "side" being referred to was the side of the face - the other way being that the "side" indicates the side of the car. In the latter, the "side" would be White's viewing position when "the man turned around". Magically, "exchange of glances" now enabled.

Even if the latter interpretation does not conform to the rules of grammar, since it does fit with the original statement, it may, nevertheless, have been what was meant, no?

I do think in a certain percentage of cases, what look to be contradictory statements are really just the result of poor statement taking skills.

Greg, thx for owning to failure at HS, because now I can uncloset to being a feral child with knowledge of English acquired imperfectly at a late developmental stage. Join the club!

Of course, you are quite right. It is entirely possible that when approached from the side the driver swiveled his head to look at White. Why? Because White was a sudden apparition, a comet, a threat to the driver. So the driver faced White & a batting of eyelashes mutually ensued. But, wouldn't the hyper-tense, super alert driver have noticed White crossing the street!! And so, knowing of the approach of White wouldn't the driver have had the thought of NOT looking directly a White as that surely would have resulted in White's identifying him as OSWALD?? :unsure:

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Miles, I'm a high school drop-out, so I don't want to get into a debate on English with a retired English teacher, but I do want to ask; couldn't the phrase "saw the man in the car from the side" be read two ways - one way being as you seemingly do - that the "side" being referred to was the side of the face - the other way being that the "side" indicates the side of the car. In the latter, the "side" would be White's viewing position when "the man turned around". Magically, "exchange of glances" now enabled.

Even if the latter interpretation does not conform to the rules of grammar, since it does fit with the original statement, it may, nevertheless, have been what was meant, no?

I do think in a certain percentage of cases, what look to be contradictory statements are really just the result of poor statement taking skills.

Greg, thx for owning to failure at HS, because now I can uncloset to being a feral child with knowledge of English acquired imperfectly at a late developmental stage. Join the club!

Miles, no problem. I'm an open book, albeit with a few loose leaves. However, for the sake of accuracy, I wasn't owning up to being a failure at HS. I was in the top 10% for my year in all subjects when I left at 14, despite an absentee record that makes Oswald's NYC record look respectable. My failures were all still ahead of me, and I made sure I found and embraced each and every one of 'em :ice

Of course, you are quite right. It is entirely possible that when approached from the side the driver swiveled his head to look at White. Why? Because White was a sudden apparition, a comet, a threat to the driver.

Well, while we're guessing, how about this: he caught something/someone approaching with peripheral vision - catching something out of the corner of your eye - natural instinct is to turn and look. Happens automatically - especially in hyper-tense situations. This type of impulsive/reflexive action rules out your suggestion below that the driver would have thought NOT to do it.

So the driver faced White & a batting of eyelashes mutually ensued. But, wouldn't the hyper-tense, super alert driver have noticed White crossing the street!!

Depends on angles. At some stage White seems to have come into his peripheral vision. Up until then recall that the driver was watching the police cars whizzing around.

And so, knowing of the approach of White wouldn't the driver have had the thought of NOT looking directly a White as that surely would have resulted in White's identifying him as OSWALD?? :unsure:

You've gone from guessing that White should have seen him crossing the street to assuming as fact he did see him crossing.

I don't know if it was LHO, someone impersonating LHO, or just some poor schlub who happened to look a little like him. What is known is who owned the license plate, and that the driver was apparently acting suspiciously before taking off like a Bondi tram when someone approached. In the scheme of things, a potentially important lead, but one not essential to unraveling some indictable facts in the case.

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A name worth remembering in relation to Collins Radio is EDWARD HERMAN BAUMGARTNER, why.....?

BAUMGARTNER, EDWARD HERMAN

Sources: CD 1085, p. 2; CD 1085g, pp. 1-10; CD 1085h, pp. 1-2; CD 1085i, pp. 1-6; CD 1085j, pp. 1-3

Mary's

Comments: DOB: June 7, 1928. POB: Indianapolis, Indiana. Social Security No. 309-26-4089. Army Serial No. US 55050121. Pro-Communist. Member of Fair Play for Cuba Committee (FPCC). Worked at Collins Radio. (Note: The Rex, one of CIA boats used in raids on Cuba, was leased to Belcher Oil and then to Collins Radio.)

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...owRec.do?id=900

WCD 1085 page 8.....mentions that "Frank O'dell 334 West Cober, Grand Prairie, Texas, advised that he has seen a pro-Castro newsletter in the possession of EDWARD H. BAUMGARTNER, a fellow employee at Collins Radio. BAUMGARTNER had this newsletter in his tool box and gave it to O'dell."

Reading O'Dell's account of Baumgartner's political beliefs is like reading about a Lee Harvey Oswald clone, the fact that he worked for Collins Radio adds to his importance.

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  • 6 months later...
A name worth remembering in relation to Collins Radio is EDWARD HERMAN BAUMGARTNER, why.....?

BAUMGARTNER, EDWARD HERMAN

Sources: CD 1085, p. 2; CD 1085g, pp. 1-10; CD 1085h, pp. 1-2; CD 1085i, pp. 1-6; CD 1085j, pp. 1-3

Mary's

Comments: DOB: June 7, 1928. POB: Indianapolis, Indiana. Social Security No. 309-26-4089. Army Serial No. US 55050121. Pro-Communist. Member of Fair Play for Cuba Committee (FPCC). Worked at Collins Radio. (Note: The Rex, one of CIA boats used in raids on Cuba, was leased to Belcher Oil and then to Collins Radio.)

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...owRec.do?id=900

WCD 1085 page 8.....mentions that "Frank O'dell 334 West Cober, Grand Prairie, Texas, advised that he has seen a pro-Castro newsletter in the possession of EDWARD H. BAUMGARTNER, a fellow employee at Collins Radio. BAUMGARTNER had this newsletter in his tool box and gave it to O'dell."

Reading O'Dell's account of Baumgartner's political beliefs is like reading about a Lee Harvey Oswald clone, the fact that he worked for Collins Radio adds to his importance.

Robert,

Sorry I missed this post before.

Is Baumgartner still alive?

Do we know where he lives?

Thanks,

BK

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