Is the *ANTI* altered film/photo crowd...

[Terry Mauro]

So for the alteration nay-sayers, back to my original questions about the circumstances of Time/Life's possession of the Z-film.

Do you find it at all odd that a major news organization--Time/Life--would purchase a film showing the assassination of the President of the United States, and do nothing with it for years other than print a few stills?

For one thing, having the film in their possession enhanced the status of the owners and editors in Washington. From a social caste point of view, snagging the Zfilm was the ultimate "get" for a news outlet. It turned the Saturday Evening Post, Newsweek and Look into also-rans for years.

Also consider how media outlets behave when they are in possession of something that turns out to be bogus. For example, Germany's Stern magazine couldn't wait to serialize the fake Hitler Diaries. imo, when people have something truly valuable they keep it close to the vest and release tidbits.

Once they release it fully to the public, it's not theirs any more, their cachet evaporates. In the media and in politics, status is everything.

"Status." Ok, asked and answered. News organizations squirrel away crime evidence for status rather than newsworthiness.

This is a most informative thread.

Myra, this may seem hard to believe, but it's clear to me that Life Magazine bought the Z-Film for two reasons, 1) to keep the gruesome film from becoming a public spectacle 2) to make a boatload of cash. Life was big news in the 60s, and having the Z film meant millions of sales. Just as importantly, having the film prevented their competitors from getting millions of sales. I'd bet you the purchase paid for itself within the first year.

As far as alteration, I don't think there was any. There is reason to suspect that the FBI and Warren Commission deliberately printed the head shot frames in the wrong order, in order to hide that the head went back after the shot. As Life executive C.D. Jackson was close to Warren Commissioner John McCloy, there's also a possibility Life colluded with the WC to keep certain frames from the public. Since Jackson died in 64, however, it's possible his promises died with him...which might explain the magazine's switcheroo in 66.

****************************************************************************

"As far as alteration, I don't think there was any. There is reason to suspect that the FBI and Warren Commission deliberately printed the head shot frames in the wrong order, in order to hide that the head went back after the shot. As Life executive C.D. Jackson was close to Warren Commissioner John McCloy, there's also a possibility Life colluded with the WC to keep certain frames from the public. Since Jackson died in 64, however, it's possible his promises died with him...which might explain the magazine's switcheroo in 66."

Yeah, but Pat, wouldn't that still constitute "alteration" regardless of whether it was done with a razor and splicing tape, or whether it was done by deliberately printing the head shot frames in the wrong order?

Edited April 15, 2007 by Terry Mauro

[Terry Mauro]

So for the alteration nay-sayers, back to my original questions about the circumstances of Time/Life's possession of the Z-film.

Do you find it at all odd that a major news organization--Time/Life--would purchase a film showing the assassination of the President of the United States, and do nothing with it for years other than print a few stills?

No.

...

Not one to over discuss things eh Kathy?

You take the astonishing position that there's nothing at all odd about a major new organization purchasing then hiding one of the most significant pieces of evidence in one of the biggest crimes ever committed, and feel no need to explain your thought process.

Well your succinctness sure keeps the thread short. There is that upside.

...

I can't see for the life of me what purpose it serves,were it altered.

...

We would have to know all the details of the murder to understand the purpose of altering evidence wouldn't we?

Given that we (or at least I, don't want to speak for you) don't know all the details I can only speculate about the purpose of altering major evidence like the Z-film. Among the possibilities:

-Hiding the possibility that the presidential limo came to a stop.

-Hiding the possibility that one of SS agents in the front seat of the presidential limo did something incriminating.

(Even more incriminating than sitting around while the president is murdered.)

-Hiding indisputable evidence of a shot from the front.

-Hiding indisputable evidence of more than three shots fired.

There are infinite possibilities, and infinite reasons for altering footage of a successful plot to murder a US president.

...

I believe the Backyard Photos are doctored, but that has a purpose---to make Oswald very much look like the assassin.

...

Gee, altering the Z-film to hide shots hitting multiple parts of the limo and occupants from multiple angles just might serve the exact same purpose--"to make Oswald very much look like the assassin"--eh?

...

Perhaps, Myra, maybe we should turn all the lights off in Dealey Plaza, and see what is left---

only sounds.

Wow that is so poetic.

What does it mean?

***********************************************************************

"-Hiding the possibility that the presidential limo came to a stop.

-Hiding the possibility that one of SS agents in the front seat of the presidential limo did something incriminating.

(Even more incriminating than sitting around while the president is murdered.)

-Hiding indisputable evidence of a shot from the front.

-Hiding indisputable evidence of more than three shots fired."

Hey My,

Be careful. You might end up being relegated to Terry Mauro [Trouble Maker] status with them thar fightin' words. They don't cotton to no confrontational wimmen folk, here in this neck of the woods.

Ter

Edited language.

Edited April 17, 2007 by Antti Hynonen

[Charles Drago]

Charles Drago

I feel you are absolutely right on. I have been criticized constantly for continuing to repeat this Z film, is why this "investigation" has not been concluded.

Charlie Black

To be clear: I do not argue that the Z-film and the controversy it was produced (again, according to my hypothesis) to engender are greater detriments to our efforts than, say, the forged/not forged autopsy photographs, multiple Oswalds, the backyard photos and the subsequently discovered cut-out version, etc.

The altered Z-film is of zero significance to the "howdunit" question, but of critical significance to the "whodunit" investigation.

Further, and as I have asked from numerous podiums before audiences comprised of many of the best and brightest among us, what will constitute closure for us?

Seriously, I can think of no more important question.

I have suggested and published my own answers, and I am keenly interested in how members of this forum would respond.

When will we be done?

When justice is meted out?

What constitutes justice in this case?

Charles

[David G. Healy]

'Charles Drago' wrote:

To be clear: I do not argue that the Z-film and the controversy it was produced (again, according to my hypothesis) to engender are greater detriments to our efforts than, say, the forged/not forged autopsy photographs, multiple Oswalds, the backyard photos and the subsequently discovered cut-out version, etc.

dgh: not very clear...

The altered Z-film is of zero significance to the "howdunit" question, but of critical significance to the "whodunit" investigation.

Further, and as I have asked from numerous podiums before audiences comprised of many of the best and brightest among us, what will constitute closure for us?

dgh: closure is illusion, you can't rewrite the assassination

Seriously, I can think of no more important question.

I have suggested and published my own answers, and I am keenly interested in how members of this forum would respond.

When will we be done?

dgh: perhaps the answer lies with another question, when will I be done? There is no "WE-THEM"! For me the 'done' time is, soon -- very soon, I'm satisfied

When justice is meted out?

dgh: mete out to whom/them/that person? There will be no collective justice, that illusion (hate to wear that term out) exists in the individual, and fleeting at best.

What constitutes justice in this case?

dgh: when a high-level US Justice department government official *admits* cover-up in the JFK assassination investigation, for whatever reason, anything short of that is bullxxxx!

Charles

Edited April 15, 2007 by David G. Healy

[Myra Bronstein]

So for the alteration nay-sayers, back to my original questions about the circumstances of Time/Life's possession of the Z-film.

Do you find it at all odd that a major news organization--Time/Life--would purchase a film showing the assassination of the President of the United States, and do nothing with it for years other than print a few stills?

For one thing, having the film in their possession enhanced the status of the owners and editors in Washington. From a social caste point of view, snagging the Zfilm was the ultimate "get" for a news outlet. It turned the Saturday Evening Post, Newsweek and Look into also-rans for years.

Also consider how media outlets behave when they are in possession of something that turns out to be bogus. For example, Germany's Stern magazine couldn't wait to serialize the fake Hitler Diaries. imo, when people have something truly valuable they keep it close to the vest and release tidbits.

Once they release it fully to the public, it's not theirs any more, their cachet evaporates. In the media and in politics, status is everything.

"Status." Ok, asked and answered. News organizations squirrel away crime evidence for status rather than newsworthiness.

This is a most informative thread.

Myra, this may seem hard to believe, but it's clear to me that Life Magazine bought the Z-Film for two reasons, 1) to keep the gruesome film from becoming a public spectacle 2) to make a boatload of cash. Life was big news in the 60s, and having the Z film meant millions of sales. Just as importantly, having the film prevented their competitors from getting millions of sales. I'd bet you the purchase paid for itself within the first year.

As far as alteration, I don't think there was any. There is reason to suspect that the FBI and Warren Commission deliberately printed the head shot frames in the wrong order, in order to hide that the head went back after the shot. As Life executive C.D. Jackson was close to Warren Commissioner John McCloy, there's also a possibility Life colluded with the WC to keep certain frames from the public. Since Jackson died in 64, however, it's possible his promises died with him...which might explain the magazine's switcheroo in 66.

Well it is hard to believe Pat, but at least you offer a scenario where there could be some legitimacy to Time/Life's possession of the film. I do have a hard time getting past the fact that Luce was the one that snapped up the evidence.

[John Dolva]

Pat: "As far as alteration, I don't think there was any. There is reason to suspect that the FBI and Warren Commission deliberately printed the head shot frames in the wrong order, in order to hide that the head went back after the shot. As Life executive C.D. Jackson was close to Warren Commissioner John McCloy, there's also a possibility Life colluded with the WC to keep certain frames from the public. Since Jackson died in 64, however, it's possible his promises died with him...which might explain the magazine's switcheroo in 66"

or to highlight that there was reason to consider the WC conclusions dubious.

The head in fact looks like it snapped forward first. A shift in profile can also give this illusion.

There is a splice at 207 where the length of the limo before and after is different. There's a frame missing there or two frames missing with one reconstructed from a break. The reason for the brake can be surmised from the descriptions of the first people who viewed the film and clearly saw Kennedy hit. Therefore, the film was very likely forwarded and backwarded a number of times at different speeds (this is easy on the projectors they would have used in Zaps home.) This stresses the film and damages the sprocket holes. Hence the film broke and when it was spliced back together again this portion was reconstructed of the leftover pieces. This is the version we have in the public domein. Henece it IS altered.

Further the various means of processing throughout the years have changed aspects of every frame.

However, before the film broke, there were AT LEAST TWO, possibly more copies made. Two went to the gov. agencies. Where are they?

Further, the copies were thumbed through by Harry D Holmes that night. This means that even the copies may have been altered. Z314 is anomalous (IMO, Ive looked at it in many ways and there are things about it that are odd. To me it looks like someone with a solvent on their finger has given it a light warp.

These were copies. The mere copying process from the original compresses color values. Hence they are also 'altered'.

Also a set of Transparencies were made.

The WC did not publish the damaged 6-8 frames from the damaged section as Kennedy was disappearing behind the Sign. They were added later as poor, obvious, 'fixes' (which in itself is an indication that the film apart from a few frames is the 'real deal').

Unless one can get hold of the whole original including the bits that broke off, and matched througout the film all features, then all of Z film that could possibly become available is 'altered' to SOME degree!

And even then we have an aged film with the alterations that come with aging.

The film as we have it IS different from the complete original. So in a sense everyone is correct. It is a real film, but it does not show us all that those few who saw it before the Life rep took it away. So in some ways depending on which version one talks about what we do have is an 'alteration'. However, that implies intent.

IMO I think there are #accident; #deliberate; #clumsy repairs; #witholdings; #natural degradation through provessing; #multiple generational copying # and ageing that constitute the wholistic view of the issue of Zfilm alteration.

Edited April 15, 2007 by John Dolva

[Charles Black]

To my thinking, there can never be true "closure"

to the horror of the event. I would be satisfied however when History Books record that JFK was killed on 11/22/63, the result of a Coup d' Etat which was engineered by the principals at both the highest levels of of the U.S. government and its agencies. This coup was not only strongly encouraged, but truly demanded by those whose financial monopoly held the "true power" behind the transparently "token government". The power which drove this coup is now realized to forever have changed the path taken by the U.S. in both domestic and international matters. The United States now attempts to RE-EARN the respect it once held in a government of the PEOPLE, which had once taken those first steps to rationally bring accord to problems which arise between nations in an ever shrinking world.

To me "The Admission of Conspiracy" will come closest to historical closure for me.

AS far as "who dunnit" and "how done"....we actually have known for some time. For those of you who are not satisfied until you learn who paid what people to hide, in which places, and to fire an exact number of shots......I am convinced that you will forever be cursed with looking at faded pictures and trying to convince others that "shrubs" are "shooters" and where others were positioned.

I frankly don't give a damn about people who are dead or octogenarians being brought "to justice".

To my thinking, JUSTICE is the admission of what occurred, and that PREVENTATIVE STEPS have been taken to insure that this can never happen again !

I don't know the exact mechanics of the plot, but I surely for years have known "Who Did It and Why".

This is why I have no cause for further actual research. The ONE FACTOR which should be blatantly obvious to anyone studying this case for even a brief time, is the self destruction of researchers by their individual feelings of independence, and their failure to concede minor points in their "Pet Theories", so that a united force can move forward

with the agreement, that their purpose is only the ADMISSION that a Coup occured on 11/22/63 and that it is realized and that steps have been "entrenched", that will not allow it to happen again.

IMHO, the very obvious lack of a "united front" is what has kept this case alive. That is why the Warren Report Buffoons laughingly point to us as "buffs" and "theorists", and continue to point to the fact that we are all so "loony" that we cannot agree with each other.

Regarding this "they ain't wrong"....and without some sort of unification, I would wager if I had a chance of then being alive, that 43 years from now

someone will again be asking..."If the Z film were altered, why did they show JFK's head apparently react to a frontal shot?"

Our sights must be raised for any type of closure.

Raised to demanding proof that IT WAS DONE.....not by who or why. We need to graduate to a higher level. I personally don't need to know the names of those who actually stabbed Julius Caesar, any more than I need the names of the soldiers who nailed Jesus Christ to the cross! We don't need the names because we truly know the "WHY".

I think the time for research has passed and it is now time for "True Analysis" and ORGANIZATION !

Charlie Black

[Terry Mauro]

To my thinking, there can never be true "closure"

to the horror of the event. I would be satisfied however when History Books record that JFK was killed on 11/22/63, the result of a Coup d' Etat which was engineered by the principals at both the highest levels of of the U.S. government and its agencies. This coup was not only strongly encouraged, but truly demanded by those whose financial monopoly held the "true power" behind the transparently "token government". The power which drove this coup is now realized to forever have changed the path taken by the U.S. in both domestic and international matters. The United States now attempts to RE-EARN the respect it once held in a government of the PEOPLE, which had once taken those first steps to rationally bring accord to problems which arise between nations in an ever shrinking world.

To me "The Admission of Conspiracy" will come closest to historical closure for me.

AS far as "who dunnit" and "how done"....we actually have known for some time. For those of you who are not satisfied until you learn who paid what people to hide, in which places, and to fire an exact number of shots......I am convinced that you will forever be cursed with looking at faded pictures and trying to convince others that "shrubs" are "shooters" and where others were positioned.

I frankly don't give a damn about people who are dead or octogenarians being brought "to justice".

To my thinking, JUSTICE is the admission of what occurred, and that PREVENTATIVE STEPS have been taken to insure that this can never happen again !

I don't know the exact mechanics of the plot, but I surely for years have known "Who Did It and Why".

This is why I have no cause for further actual research. The ONE FACTOR which should be blatantly obvious to anyone studying this case for even a brief time, is the self destruction of researchers by their individual feelings of independence, and their failure to concede minor points in their "Pet Theories", so that a united force can move forward

with the agreement, that their purpose is only the ADMISSION that a Coup occured on 11/22/63 and that it is realized and that steps have been "entrenched", that will not allow it to happen again.

IMHO, the very obvious lack of a "united front" is what has kept this case alive. That is why the Warren Report Buffoons laughingly point to us as "buffs" and "theorists", and continue to point to the fact that we are all so "loony" that we cannot agree with each other.

Regarding this "they ain't wrong"....and without some sort of unification, I would wager if I had a chance of then being alive, that 43 years from now

someone will again be asking..."If the Z film were altered, why did they show JFK's head apparently react to a frontal shot?"

Our sights must be raised for any type of closure.

Raised to demanding proof that IT WAS DONE.....not by who or why. We need to graduate to a higher level. I personally don't need to know the names of those who actually stabbed Julius Caesar, any more than I need the names of the soldiers who nailed Jesus Christ to the cross! We don't need the names because we truly know the "WHY".

I think the time for research has passed and it is now time for "True Analysis" and ORGANIZATION !

Charlie Black

***********************************************************

Now, this is the Charles Black I had come to admire back in November - December, before those damned "Marilyn" threads. This is where you shine, Charlie. This is where you should be directing your time and energy. Because, this is the podium from which I first witnessed what I believed was your dogged determination in pointing your finger in the direction of the real perps. You and Myra, seemed to be the new blood so necessary in raising the conciousness, as well as the evolutionary process, in order to drag this investigation out of the mire in which it's been languishing.

And, I sincerely mean that, Charles. Please don't mistake this as some kind of an attack, because that is definitely not my intention, here.

[Dawn Meredith]

To my thinking, there can never be true "closure"

to the horror of the event. I would be satisfied however when History Books record that JFK was killed on 11/22/63, the result of a Coup d' Etat which was engineered by the principals at both the highest levels of of the U.S. government and its agencies. This coup was not only strongly encouraged, but truly demanded by those whose financial monopoly held the "true power" behind the transparently "token government". The power which drove this coup is now realized to forever have changed the path taken by the U.S. in both domestic and international matters. The United States now attempts to RE-EARN the respect it once held in a government of the PEOPLE, which had once taken those first steps to rationally bring accord to problems which arise between nations in an ever shrinking world.

To me "The Admission of Conspiracy" will come closest to historical closure for me.

AS far as "who dunnit" and "how done"....we actually have known for some time. For those of you who are not satisfied until you learn who paid what people to hide, in which places, and to fire an exact number of shots......I am convinced that you will forever be cursed with looking at faded pictures and trying to convince others that "shrubs" are "shooters" and where others were positioned.

I frankly don't give a damn about people who are dead or octogenarians being brought "to justice".

To my thinking, JUSTICE is the admission of what occurred, and that PREVENTATIVE STEPS have been taken to insure that this can never happen again !

I don't know the exact mechanics of the plot, but I surely for years have known "Who Did It and Why".

This is why I have no cause for further actual research. The ONE FACTOR which should be blatantly obvious to anyone studying this case for even a brief time, is the self destruction of researchers by their individual feelings of independence, and their failure to concede minor points in their "Pet Theories", so that a united force can move forward

with the agreement, that their purpose is only the ADMISSION that a Coup occured on 11/22/63 and that it is realized and that steps have been "entrenched", that will not allow it to happen again.

IMHO, the very obvious lack of a "united front" is what has kept this case alive. That is why the Warren Report Buffoons laughingly point to us as "buffs" and "theorists", and continue to point to the fact that we are all so "loony" that we cannot agree with each other.

Regarding this "they ain't wrong"....and without some sort of unification, I would wager if I had a chance of then being alive, that 43 years from now

someone will again be asking..."If the Z film were altered, why did they show JFK's head apparently react to a frontal shot?"

Our sights must be raised for any type of closure.

Raised to demanding proof that IT WAS DONE.....not by who or why. We need to graduate to a higher level. I personally don't need to know the names of those who actually stabbed Julius Caesar, any more than I need the names of the soldiers who nailed Jesus Christ to the cross! We don't need the names because we truly know the "WHY".

I think the time for research has passed and it is now time for "True Analysis" and ORGANIZATION !

Charlie Black

Wow! Charlie you've regained your senses. I agree 100% with this post. The infighting in the critical community has saddened me from its inception.

Dawn

[Charles Drago]

I'm going to take the liberty of posting, on a new thread, an essay that I wrote and published in 1993.

"In the Blossom of Our Sins", although dated, addresses many of the points raised recently on this thread.

Charles

[Charles Black]

Terry & Dawn

It is a pleasure for me to say "Thank You".

I want you to know that I post only what "I" truly believe (except when joking).

The posts to which both of you took exception were perhaps worded in a confusing manner. I meant nothing more than to state, besides the good that they did, they, as has everyone before them and since, made mistakes.....as they were human.

The problem was that their mistakes, were made while surrounded by hostile enemies, who were long entrenched and supported by the "true power" behind the politics. Politics motivated by greed and power only. JFK's plans for the good of the nation and the world in general, were becoming an immoveable obstacle. Money and power, as usual had its way. Only in this case, power could not "coerce", SO, it removed the problem.

My problem is that I truly feel that more of the good could have been accomplished, possibly forever, if the problems were approached in a manner that a "16 year control over the Presidency" could have insured entrenchment of certain standards. Too much was attempted in too short a time, that scared the pure hell out of "the old power base", and ended what could have been a 16 or possibly even a 24 year old campaign, rather than one of less than three years.

I strongly have ALWAYS supported the "Kennedy Purpose"....I feel that the purpose could have been "doable". What was needed was a "four quarter game plan", not necessarily assured victory in the first quarter.

The foe was big, powerful, very experienced and well entrenched. They could not be overwhelmed in the first quarter by anyone. And they still haven't been !

It has of course been, only in hindsight, conjectured by me, that more politics, patience and protocol, may have produced a victory had it been pursued over a longer time period. The Best and Brightest, may not win in the short term, over a very experienced and capable opponent.

My criticism is of method....not purpose.

Mistakes have been made by everyone...but not with the same penalty !

My problem was certainly not the "Kennedy Goal". It is that this goal "may" have been almost "completely" attainable with a longer term plan to achieve these objectives. The possibility of a 24 year occupancy of the White House as opposed to less than three.

I questioned the wisdom of their methods. Not ever their "Goals" !

Charlie Black

[Terry Mauro]

Terry & Dawn

It is a pleasure for me to say "Thank You".

I want you to know that I post only what "I" truly believe (except when joking).

The posts to which both of you took exception were perhaps worded in a confusing manner. I meant nothing more than to state, besides the good that they did, they, as has everyone before them and since, made mistakes.....as they were human.

The problem was that their mistakes, were made while surrounded by hostile enemies, who were long entrenched and supported by the "true power" behind the politics. Politics motivated by greed and power only. JFK's plans for the good of the nation and the world in general, were becoming an immoveable obstacle. Money and power, as usual had its way. Only in this case, power could not "coerce", SO, it removed the problem.

My problem is that I truly feel that more of the good could have been accomplished, possibly forever, if the problems were approached in a manner that a "16 year control over the Presidency" could have insured entrenchment of certain standards. Too much was attempted in too short a time, that scared the pure hell out of "the old power base", and ended what could have been a 16 or possibly even a 24 year old campaign, rather than one of less than three years.

I strongly have ALWAYS supported the "Kennedy Purpose"....I feel that the purpose could have been "doable". What was needed was a "four quarter game plan", not necessarily assured victory in the first quarter.

The foe was big, powerful, very experienced and well entrenched. They could not be overwhelmed in the first quarter by anyone. And they still haven't been !

It has of course been, only in hindsight, conjectured by me, that more politics, patience and protocol, may have produced a victory had it been pursued over a longer time period. The Best and Brightest, may not win in the short term, over a very experienced and capable opponent.

My criticism is of method....not purpose.

Mistakes have been made by everyone...but not with the same penalty !

My problem was certainly not the "Kennedy Goal". It is that this goal "may" have been almost "completely" attainable with a longer term plan to achieve these objectives. The possibility of a 24 year occupancy of the White House as opposed to less than three.

I questioned the wisdom of their methods. Not ever their "Goals" !

Charlie Black

***********************************************************

"Too much was attempted in too short a time, that scared the pure hell out of "the old power base", and ended what could have been a 16 or possibly even a 24 year old campaign, rather than one of less than three years."

My problem was certainly not the "Kennedy Goal". It is that this goal "may" have been almost "completely" attainable with a longer term plan to achieve these objectives. The possibility of a 24 year occupancy of the White House as opposed to less than three.

I agree, one hundred percent, and I know you didn't have a problem with their goal. You're merely expressing the need for more foresight, on their part, than they may have been capable of at that point in time. None of us would have ever dreamed it was going to be retaliated in a coup d'etat of that magnitude. It may have taken a considerably longer amount of time in having to play along with the fascists, who weren't about to give up the lucrative ventures they had staked out for themselves in SEA. Plus, JFK would've had to resign himself to the fact that he'd forever have to bite the bullet for the BOP, and taken the heat for the lives that were about to be lost in SEA.

The money-men and their vested interests were desperate to keep control of the war machine, and they were going to keep moving it in the direction they'd been planning since the end of the Korean conflict. Any diversionary tactic JFK may have tried to employ in order to facillitate a re-direction of that course was inevitably going to cost him. And, any popular support from his constituency was going to have to be squelched, one way or the other.

Unfortunately, I believe it would've have eventually ended up costing him his life, anyway. The best laid plans of mice and men, if you will. Because, for Eisenhower to have taken the time and the risk to have issued that warning in his final State Of The Union Address, a warning I seriously doubt the general populace caught the gist of not having been familiar with the terms being used [military industrial complex], at the time. No one had an inkling of what a place called Laos, or South East Asia, had to do with us here in the U.S.A, either.

Remember, we were conditioned to believe that in order for the U.S. to enter into any form of combat or warfare on foreign soil, we had to have been attacked, first. The Geneva Accords were taken seriously after WWII. We had been assured by our fathers and uncles that WWII had been specifically fought, along with the massive amount of lives that were lost, in order that their children [us] would never have to do combat like that, ever again. What was staring us in the face in August of 1963, was something we had never counted on. Our lives were about to be disrupted, and would never be the same again. We were so naive.

I believe this American Coup took place as a warning to the generation spawned of the WWII vets.

It's message was to cow us into the realization that, "Regardless of how free you may think you are in this illusion of checks and balances, the fact remains that your opinion and your vote, really don't amount to a hill of beans. Especially, when you try to buck the status quo, of which you middle class plebes will always be required to pay twenty-eight percent of your earnings to keep us in business, as usual. Any deviation from the "norm" set by us, will cost you, dearly."

If nothing else, it made some of us, especially those of us who frequent these forums, acutely aware of who really runs the show in the Anglo-American system. It took the murder of a man who tried to lead his country in the way he, and the citizens of his country were taught to believe it was supposed to be led. But, instead were startled into the realization of how it was going to end up being forcibly led.

Thanks again, Charlie. Truly the end of the innocence. We won't be fooled again.

Edited April 16, 2007 by Terry Mauro

[Myra Bronstein]

To my thinking, there can never be true "closure"

to the horror of the event. I would be satisfied however when History Books record that JFK was killed on 11/22/63, the result of a Coup d' Etat which was engineered by the principals at both the highest levels of of the U.S. government and its agencies. This coup was not only strongly encouraged, but truly demanded by those whose financial monopoly held the "true power" behind the transparently "token government". The power which drove this coup is now realized to forever have changed the path taken by the U.S. in both domestic and international matters. The United States now attempts to RE-EARN the respect it once held in a government of the PEOPLE, which had once taken those first steps to rationally bring accord to problems which arise between nations in an ever shrinking world.

To me "The Admission of Conspiracy" will come closest to historical closure for me.

AS far as "who dunnit" and "how done"....we actually have known for some time. For those of you who are not satisfied until you learn who paid what people to hide, in which places, and to fire an exact number of shots......I am convinced that you will forever be cursed with looking at faded pictures and trying to convince others that "shrubs" are "shooters" and where others were positioned.

I frankly don't give a damn about people who are dead or octogenarians being brought "to justice".

To my thinking, JUSTICE is the admission of what occurred, and that PREVENTATIVE STEPS have been taken to insure that this can never happen again !

I don't know the exact mechanics of the plot, but I surely for years have known "Who Did It and Why".

This is why I have no cause for further actual research. The ONE FACTOR which should be blatantly obvious to anyone studying this case for even a brief time, is the self destruction of researchers by their individual feelings of independence, and their failure to concede minor points in their "Pet Theories", so that a united force can move forward

with the agreement, that their purpose is only the ADMISSION that a Coup occured on 11/22/63 and that it is realized and that steps have been "entrenched", that will not allow it to happen again.

IMHO, the very obvious lack of a "united front" is what has kept this case alive. That is why the Warren Report Buffoons laughingly point to us as "buffs" and "theorists", and continue to point to the fact that we are all so "loony" that we cannot agree with each other.

Regarding this "they ain't wrong"....and without some sort of unification, I would wager if I had a chance of then being alive, that 43 years from now

someone will again be asking..."If the Z film were altered, why did they show JFK's head apparently react to a frontal shot?"

Our sights must be raised for any type of closure.

Raised to demanding proof that IT WAS DONE.....not by who or why. We need to graduate to a higher level. I personally don't need to know the names of those who actually stabbed Julius Caesar, any more than I need the names of the soldiers who nailed Jesus Christ to the cross! We don't need the names because we truly know the "WHY".

I think the time for research has passed and it is now time for "True Analysis" and ORGANIZATION !

Charlie Black

***********************************************************

Now, this is the Charles Black I had come to admire back in November - December, before those damned "Marilyn" threads. This is where you shine, Charlie. This is where you should be directing your time and energy. Because, this is the podium from which I first witnessed what I believed was your dogged determination in pointing your finger in the direction of the real perps. You and Myra, seemed to be the new blood so necessary in raising the conciousness, as well as the evolutionary process, in order to drag this investigation out of the mire in which it's been languishing.

And, I sincerely mean that, Charles. Please don't mistake this as some kind of an attack, because that is definitely not my intention, here.

Wow, thank you Terry.

In fact I'm going to pounce on this to flog a project I've been wanting to work on, and it's finally to the point where I'm soliciting input:

http://www.jfktimeline.com/

Everyone please keep in mind that this is a super early version. I'm just now getting the format nailed down. It will take months to really put some flesh on the bones. And a big part of the reason I'm going quasi-public with it now is because input from other researchers/historians is essential given the scope of the effort.

My objective is to give context to President Kennedy's murder and thereby explain what's going on today because it's all so closely related. I'm also doing this because the murder is a huge puzzle, so I'm assembling it like a huge puzzle. Ultimately the perps & victims will be very obvious from my presentation. The format will allow for a lot of information at a glance, while incorporating drill-down capability. If someone wants to know more about a topic I'll link to my own summaries. Then if they want to know still more I'll provide links to (what I consider) the best JFK resources.

Again, input info and ideas would be greatly appreciated.

[Pat Speer]

To my thinking, there can never be true "closure"

to the horror of the event. I would be satisfied however when History Books record that JFK was killed on 11/22/63, the result of a Coup d' Etat which was engineered by the principals at both the highest levels of of the U.S. government and its agencies. This coup was not only strongly encouraged, but truly demanded by those whose financial monopoly held the "true power" behind the transparently "token government". The power which drove this coup is now realized to forever have changed the path taken by the U.S. in both domestic and international matters. The United States now attempts to RE-EARN the respect it once held in a government of the PEOPLE, which had once taken those first steps to rationally bring accord to problems which arise between nations in an ever shrinking world.

To me "The Admission of Conspiracy" will come closest to historical closure for me.

AS far as "who dunnit" and "how done"....we actually have known for some time. For those of you who are not satisfied until you learn who paid what people to hide, in which places, and to fire an exact number of shots......I am convinced that you will forever be cursed with looking at faded pictures and trying to convince others that "shrubs" are "shooters" and where others were positioned.

I frankly don't give a damn about people who are dead or octogenarians being brought "to justice".

To my thinking, JUSTICE is the admission of what occurred, and that PREVENTATIVE STEPS have been taken to insure that this can never happen again !

I don't know the exact mechanics of the plot, but I surely for years have known "Who Did It and Why".

This is why I have no cause for further actual research. The ONE FACTOR which should be blatantly obvious to anyone studying this case for even a brief time, is the self destruction of researchers by their individual feelings of independence, and their failure to concede minor points in their "Pet Theories", so that a united force can move forward

with the agreement, that their purpose is only the ADMISSION that a Coup occured on 11/22/63 and that it is realized and that steps have been "entrenched", that will not allow it to happen again.

IMHO, the very obvious lack of a "united front" is what has kept this case alive. That is why the Warren Report Buffoons laughingly point to us as "buffs" and "theorists", and continue to point to the fact that we are all so "loony" that we cannot agree with each other.

Regarding this "they ain't wrong"....and without some sort of unification, I would wager if I had a chance of then being alive, that 43 years from now

someone will again be asking..."If the Z film were altered, why did they show JFK's head apparently react to a frontal shot?"

Our sights must be raised for any type of closure.

Raised to demanding proof that IT WAS DONE.....not by who or why. We need to graduate to a higher level. I personally don't need to know the names of those who actually stabbed Julius Caesar, any more than I need the names of the soldiers who nailed Jesus Christ to the cross! We don't need the names because we truly know the "WHY".

I think the time for research has passed and it is now time for "True Analysis" and ORGANIZATION !

Charlie Black

***********************************************************

Now, this is the Charles Black I had come to admire back in November - December, before those damned "Marilyn" threads. This is where you shine, Charlie. This is where you should be directing your time and energy. Because, this is the podium from which I first witnessed what I believed was your dogged determination in pointing your finger in the direction of the real perps. You and Myra, seemed to be the new blood so necessary in raising the conciousness, as well as the evolutionary process, in order to drag this investigation out of the mire in which it's been languishing.

And, I sincerely mean that, Charles. Please don't mistake this as some kind of an attack, because that is definitely not my intention, here.

Wow, thank you Terry.

In fact I'm going to pounce on this to flog a project I've been wanting to work on, and it's finally to the point where I'm soliciting input:

http://www.jfktimeline.com/

Everyone please keep in mind that this is a super early version. I'm just now getting the format nailed down. It will take months to really put some flesh on the bones. And a big part of the reason I'm going quasi-public with it now is because input from other researchers/historians is essential given the scope of the effort.

My objective is to give context to President Kennedy's murder and thereby explain what's going on today because it's all so closely related. I'm also doing this because the murder is a huge puzzle, so I'm assembling it like a huge puzzle. Ultimately the perps & victims will be very obvious from my presentation. The format will allow for a lot of information at a glance, while incorporating drill-down capability. If someone wants to know more about a topic I'll link to my own summaries. Then if they want to know still more I'll provide links to (what I consider) the best JFK resources.

Again, input info and ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Myra, the first chapter of my work in progress, entitled The Aftermath, is included on my homepage at PatSpeer.com. It is a timeline of Johnson, FBI, Warren Commission and media activities in the weeks after the assassination. It became absolutely clear, from writing this, that no one in power was particularly interested in finding out what happened. Does it mean there'd been a coup? No. But it shows beyond any doubt, IMO, that had there been one, no one would have had the guts to uncover it. Feel free to use any of the info in your timeline.

Johnson felt it was best to bury the investigation with the bodies. His purported reasons--fear of WW3, are a lie. His real reasons--to protect himself from speculation and to prop up the presidency--are not justified, IMO. After all, is it a Democracy when the President is beyond suspicion, and beyond investigation? And how crazy is it that Johnson created a Panel, answerable only to himself, to investigate himself? The proper place for this investigation was in congress. By swooping down and cutting off the congressional investigations, Johnson was purportedly protecting the U.S. from the 'wrong sort of investigation"--one played out in public and one that might be used to spread anti-right-wing or anti-Communist hysteria. If he was sincere in this, however, it was probably a miscalculation. His appointing prominent Americans, all beholden to him personally, to clear his name, played out like a Machiavellian farce overseas, and ran but two years domestically. Instead of strengthening the U.S. he weakened it. In the process, he sent a message to his successors--from Nixon to Reagan to Bush to Bush--that the preservation of Presidential authority is a legitimate National Security Objective. In other words, it was determined that the President's good name was more important than the lives of others. The Cold War gave him a license to lie.

Today, of course, the War on Terror gives the current President a license to lie, and conceal. At least in his mind.

[Terry Mauro]

To my thinking, there can never be true "closure"

to the horror of the event. I would be satisfied however when History Books record that JFK was killed on 11/22/63, the result of a Coup d' Etat which was engineered by the principals at both the highest levels of of the U.S. government and its agencies. This coup was not only strongly encouraged, but truly demanded by those whose financial monopoly held the "true power" behind the transparently "token government". The power which drove this coup is now realized to forever have changed the path taken by the U.S. in both domestic and international matters. The United States now attempts to RE-EARN the respect it once held in a government of the PEOPLE, which had once taken those first steps to rationally bring accord to problems which arise between nations in an ever shrinking world.

To me "The Admission of Conspiracy" will come closest to historical closure for me.

AS far as "who dunnit" and "how done"....we actually have known for some time. For those of you who are not satisfied until you learn who paid what people to hide, in which places, and to fire an exact number of shots......I am convinced that you will forever be cursed with looking at faded pictures and trying to convince others that "shrubs" are "shooters" and where others were positioned.

I frankly don't give a damn about people who are dead or octogenarians being brought "to justice".

To my thinking, JUSTICE is the admission of what occurred, and that PREVENTATIVE STEPS have been taken to insure that this can never happen again !

I don't know the exact mechanics of the plot, but I surely for years have known "Who Did It and Why".

This is why I have no cause for further actual research. The ONE FACTOR which should be blatantly obvious to anyone studying this case for even a brief time, is the self destruction of researchers by their individual feelings of independence, and their failure to concede minor points in their "Pet Theories", so that a united force can move forward

with the agreement, that their purpose is only the ADMISSION that a Coup occured on 11/22/63 and that it is realized and that steps have been "entrenched", that will not allow it to happen again.

IMHO, the very obvious lack of a "united front" is what has kept this case alive. That is why the Warren Report Buffoons laughingly point to us as "buffs" and "theorists", and continue to point to the fact that we are all so "loony" that we cannot agree with each other.

Regarding this "they ain't wrong"....and without some sort of unification, I would wager if I had a chance of then being alive, that 43 years from now

someone will again be asking..."If the Z film were altered, why did they show JFK's head apparently react to a frontal shot?"

Our sights must be raised for any type of closure.

Raised to demanding proof that IT WAS DONE.....not by who or why. We need to graduate to a higher level. I personally don't need to know the names of those who actually stabbed Julius Caesar, any more than I need the names of the soldiers who nailed Jesus Christ to the cross! We don't need the names because we truly know the "WHY".

I think the time for research has passed and it is now time for "True Analysis" and ORGANIZATION !

Charlie Black

***********************************************************

Now, this is the Charles Black I had come to admire back in November - December, before those damned "Marilyn" threads. This is where you shine, Charlie. This is where you should be directing your time and energy. Because, this is the podium from which I first witnessed what I believed was your dogged determination in pointing your finger in the direction of the real perps. You and Myra, seemed to be the new blood so necessary in raising the conciousness, as well as the evolutionary process, in order to drag this investigation out of the mire in which it's been languishing.

And, I sincerely mean that, Charles. Please don't mistake this as some kind of an attack, because that is definitely not my intention, here.

Wow, thank you Terry.

In fact I'm going to pounce on this to flog a project I've been wanting to work on, and it's finally to the point where I'm soliciting input:

http://www.jfktimeline.com/

Everyone please keep in mind that this is a super early version. I'm just now getting the format nailed down. It will take months to really put some flesh on the bones. And a big part of the reason I'm going quasi-public with it now is because input from other researchers/historians is essential given the scope of the effort.

My objective is to give context to President Kennedy's murder and thereby explain what's going on today because it's all so closely related. I'm also doing this because the murder is a huge puzzle, so I'm assembling it like a huge puzzle. Ultimately the perps & victims will be very obvious from my presentation. The format will allow for a lot of information at a glance, while incorporating drill-down capability. If someone wants to know more about a topic I'll link to my own summaries. Then if they want to know still more I'll provide links to (what I consider) the best JFK resources.

Again, input info and ideas would be greatly appreciated.

****************************************************************8

Myra,

I am both astonished and beaming with pride for you. You have been one busy little bee! I would like to add to the title, "JFK Timeline - The Historical Truth." This is a wonderful idea, and a wonderful watershed from which a team effort among the serious historians in the membership might be able to come together and collaborate. I will certainly drag my books out and consult with my brightest pals for this one.

This is the kind of project we should have all set aside our differences and undertook back in 1992, instead of allowing ourselves to become divided and conquered like we've been for the last decade.

Thank you, My.