How many shots did Mary Moorman hear?

[Guest Eugene B. Connolly]

I listened to the recording of

Mary Moorman Krahmer speaking

about the photograph

that she was auctioning (The recording was posted on this forum)

and I was struck by the fact that

when she was asked how many shots

she had heard she replied 3 - an emphatic 3.

Whereas in Anthony Summers' book

Conspiracy Summers writes that Moorman

said at the time that she had heard 3 or 4 shots.

In her original statement she wrote:

"I heard three or four shots in all."

Why this change of mind?

I was also struck by Moorman's

reference to her health and being able to sell

the image and enjoy whatever time she had left.

She repeated this longevity theme several

times during the interview so much so that the interviewing

disk jockeys made a joke of it and one

of them even jokingly suggested that he ring Mary - after

she had left the studio - to see

if she was still ok.

Was Mary afraid of something?

Do the tentacles of the JFK conspiracy

still reach far - even now - 44 years later?

Why is Mary afraid?

Why has Mary changed her story?

VOLUNTARY STATEMENT. Not Under Arrest Form No. 86

SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT

COUNTY OF DALLAS, TEXAS

Before me, the undersigned authority, on this the 22nd day of November A.D. 1963 personally appeared Mary Ann Moorman, Address: 2832 Ripplewood, Dallas. Age 31, Phone No. DA 1-9390.

Deposes and says

Mrs. Jean Hill and I were standing on the grass by the park on Elm Street between the underpass and the corner of Elm & Houston. I had a Polaroid Camera [sic] with me and was intending to take pictures of President Kennedy and the motorcade. As the motorcade started toward me I took two pictures. As President Kennedy was opposite me I took a picture of him. As I snapped the picture of President Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over. Then I heard another shot ring out and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up in the car and said, "My God he had been shot." When I heard these shots ring out, I fell to the ground to keep from being hit myself. I heard three or four shots in all. After the pictures I took were developed, the Picture [sic] of President Kennedy showed him slumped over. When the pictures were developed, they came out real light. These pictures have been turned over to Officers [sic] investigating this incident.

/s/ Mary Ann Moorman

Subscribed and sworn to before me on this the 22nd day of Nov A. D. 1963

/s/ Aleen Davis

Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas

Statement supplied by Bernice

Download link for Radio Interview (Courtesy of Don Roberdeau):

http://podcast.krld.com/krld/390406.mp3

EBC

Edited April 24, 2007 by Eugene B. Connolly

[Pat Speer]

Last year I read through every statement of every Dealey Plaza witness I could find. I focused on their recollections of the number, timing, and source of the shots. I concluded that Mary Moorman and Jean Hill probably heard but two shots. The FIRST shot they heard was the head shot. They then heard one just after. This one was heard by many others. They then claimed that, after a PAUSE--so this is now several seconds after the head shot--there was another shot or shots. Mary normally says one came after the pause and Jean says two to four. As these shots were heard by virtually no one else, I believe they were hearing echoes. Their location--in the middle of the plaza--would make them especially prone to echoes. That they had special hearing and heard shots unheard by others is made unlikely by their failing to hear the first shot at all.

Here is what I have on Moorman in my work in progress at patspeer.com

Mary Moorman was on the south side of Elm across from the Newmans. She can be seen in the Zapruder film, Nix film, and Muchmore film, as well as stills such as the Bond photo. (3:16 PM 11-22-63 WBAP interview, quoted in Pictures of the Pain) “Mine is a Polaroid and I can only take one every ten seconds, and that was at that time that I took it…I must have snapped it immediately when he slumped, cause in the picture that’s the way she’s there and he’s slumped over.” (3:30 PM 11-22-63 KRLD interview, transcribed by David Lifton and posted online by Jack White, 2-16-07) (When asked if she took her Polaroid picture before or after the first shot) “Evidently, just immediately, as the…Cause he was, he was looking, you know, whenever I got the camera focused and then I snapped it in my picture, he slumped over.” (When asked how far way she was from Kennedy at this time) “10 or 15 foot, I, no more…Because I fall behind my camera.” (When asked where she was standing) “We stepped out in the street. We were right at the car.” (When asked how many shots she heard) “Oh, oh, I don’t know. I think three or four is what I, uh, that I heard…that I’m sure of. Now, I don’t know, there might have been more. It just took seconds for me to realize what was happening. (When asked Kennedy’s response to the first shot.) “He grabbed his chest, and, of course, Mrs. Kennedy jumped up immediately and fell over him, and she said “My God, he’s been shot.” (When asked the reactions of others) “Uh, they hesitated just for a moment ‘cause I think they were like I was, you know—Was that a shot or was it just a backfire, or just what? And then, of course, he clutched himself and they immediately sped up, real fast, you know, like to get out of there. And, uh the police, there were several motorcycles around him, and uh, they stopped, and uh—one or two must have went with him. And one ran up the hill, and a friend that was with me ran up the hill across the street, from where the shots came from.” (When asked where the shots came from) “Oh, Lord. North. Just back there.” (When asked if this meant the shots were fired toward her) “Yes, sir.” “The sound popped, well it just sounded like, well, you know, there might have been a firecracker right there in the car.” (When asked again if her picture was taken before the shot) “Evidently, at the minute that he, that it hit him because, uh, we was we was looking, at me, or I mean, he was looking, you know, at the people when my picture came out. Then he just slumped over, so I must have got it.” (Describing her picture) “You could see he’s clutched, he’s bent over, and she’s…and she hadn’t even gotten up in my picture, and she did get up, stood up, in the car.” (11-22-63 WFAA interview, as quoted in Pictures of the Pain) “My picture when I took it was at the same instant that the President was hit, and that does show in my picture…it shows the President, uh, he slumped…It all happened so suddenly, I don’t think anyone realized, you know, what had happened.” (About the shots) “There was three or four real close together, and it must have been the first one that shot him, ‘cause that was the time I took the picture, and during that time after I took the picture, and the shots were still being fired, I decided I better get on the ground. I was no more than 15 foot from the car, and in the line of fire, evidently.” (11-22-63 statement to Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 19H487, 24H217) “As President Kennedy was opposite me, I took a picture of him. As I snapped the picture of President Kennedy, I heard a shot ring out. President Kennedy kind of slumped over. Then I heard another shot ring out and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and said “My God, he has been shot!” When I heard these shots ring out, I fell to the ground to keep from being hit myself. I heard three or four shots in all.” (11-23-63 FBI, report, 22H838) “She took a second photograph of the President as his automobile passed her, and just as she snapped the picture, she heard what she first thought was a firecracker and very shortly thereafter heard another similar sound which she later determined to have been gunfire. She knows that she heard two shots and possibly a third shot. She recalls seeing the President sort of “jump” and start to slump sideways in the seat, and seems to recall President Kennedy’s wife scream “My God, he’s been shot!...She recalls that the President’s car was moving at the time she took the second picture, and when she heard the shots, and has the impression that the car either stopped momentarily or hesitated and then drove off in a hurry.”

(2-15-69 testimony in the trial of Clay Shaw) “as the Presidential limousine approached me I stepped forward to observe closer in order to take a picture, that is what I planned to do and just what I did....I heard three noises and they sounded like firecrackers.” (1997 interview on KRLD, as posted online by Debra Conway) "UH, just immediately before the presidential car came into view, we were, you know, there was just tremendous excitement. And my friend who was with me ( Jean Hill ) we were right ready to take the picture. And she's not timid. She, as the car approached us, she did holler for the president . " Mr.President, look this way !” And I stepped out off the curb into the street to take the picture and snapped it immediately. And that evidently was the first shot. You know I could hear the sound. and…" (When asked if she recognized it as a rifle shot) "Oh no. A firecracker, maybe. There was another one just immediately following which I still thought was a firecracker. And then I stepped back up on to the grassy area. I guess just, people were falling around us, you know. Knowing something was wrong. I certainly didn't know what was wrong”. (April, 2007 interview on KRLD) (When asked how many shots she heard) "I heard three." (When asked what they sounded like) "I stepped up to snap a picture and at the instant that I snapped a picture there was a shot. And I know I stepped back a few steps and another shot. And then there was another one shortly in a matter of seconds...The first two were closer together than the last one."

Analysis: as Mrs. Moorman took her famous Polaroid at frame 315, the first shot she heard would have to have been the head shot. She then describes a shot after this, but before she heard Jackie yell out. In this she is probably mistaken, as Skelton and Summers and her friend Jean Hill remember Jackie yelling out just before this shot. While she has been inconsistent on the number of shots, and even where she was standing when she took her picture, she has been consistent in that the first shot was the shot captured in her photo (at frame 315) and that she heard another shot (or two) just after this shot. Did not hear the first shot. Last two shots (or more) bunched together (with the last shot after the head shot).

[Bernice Moore]

H Eugene..........

This is what David Lifton found recently, at the N/A....a much fuller transcript

of Mary's information than what is on the clip I posted......You may be interested in

this, in particular what she says herself about the shots.....posted by Jack White on

Feb.07/07....

B......

Yesterday while reviewing some transcribed old notes taken many years ago

at the National Archives, David Lifton came across a long forgotten

information of the mother lode variety.

He was transcribing by hand, listening with earphones to audio tapes made

on the afternoon of 11-22-63, from KRLD Radio tape reels.

The reel was an interview by Jay Hogan of Mary Moorman and Jean Hill at

3:30 pm...on KRLD RADIO excerpts, Tape 5B and 6A at NARA.

I am excerpting from the lengthy transcript several relevant parts of the

interviews. Decide for yourself the importance of this first day evidence:

HOGAN:

Q: Hello, Mrs. Moorman?

A: Yes.

Q You took the picture just after the shooting, or just before?

A: Evidently, just immediately, as the. . . Cause he was, he was looking, you know,

whenever I got the camera focused and then I snapped it in my picture, he slumped over.

(DELETED FOR BREVITY)

Q: About how close were you?

(DELETED FOR BREVITY)

A: 10 or fifteen foot, I, no more . . . Because I fall behind my camera.

(DELETED FOR BREVITY)

Q: Were you up on that grassy bank there?

A: We stepped out in the street. We were right at the car.

(DELETED FOR BREVITY)

Q: How many shots did you hear? You say "shots rang out".

A: Oh, oh, I don't know. I think three or four is what I, I uh, that I heard.

Q: Uh huh.

A: (continuing) that I'm sure of. Now, I don't know, there might have been more.

It just took seconds for me to realize what was happening.

Q: Yeah, uh, what as your first thought?

A: That those ARE shots. I mean, he had been HIT.

And that they're liable to hit me, cause I'm right at the car,

so I decided the place for me is to get on the ground (laughs)

Q: So huh, how did the president respond to this shot. I mean, did he just

slump suddenly?

A: He grabbed his chest, and of course, Mrs. Kennedy jumped up immediately,

and fell over him; and she said: "My God, he's been shot."

Q: Did you notice any other reactions...

(DELETED FOR BREVITY)

A: Uh, they hesitated just for a moment [referring, I believe, to the car itself,

rather than to the behavior of any particular individual--dsl] cause I think they

were like I was, you know--'Was that a shot," or was itj ust a backfire, or

just what? And then, course, he clutched himself and they immediately sped up,

real fast, you know, like--to get OUT of there. And, uh, the police, there were

several motorcycles around him; and, uh, they stopped, and uh--one or two must

of went with him, And one ran up the hill, and a friend that was with me ran up

the hill across the street from where the shots came from.

(DELETED FOR BREVITY)

Q: It (shots) seemed fairly close by?

A: Yes, uh huh.

Q And form what direction did they seem to be?

A: Oh, Lord? North. Just back there (at--laughs)

Q: Just just right at you?

A: Yes, sir.

(DELETED FOR BREVITY)

A: The sound popped, well it just sounded like, well, you know, there might

have been a firecracker right there in that car.

Q: And in your picture, uh, you uh took this picture just BEFORE the shot?

(DELETED FOR BREVITY)

A: Evidently, at the minute (means "instant") that he, that it hit him because,

uh, we was we was looking, at me, or I mean, he was looking, you know, at the

people when my picture came out. They just slumped over, so I must have got it.

(DELETED FOR BREVITY)

A: Yes, uh huh. You could see he's clutched, he's bent over, and she's... and she

hadn't even gotten up in my picture, and she DID get up, STOOD UP, in the car.

(DELETED FOR BREVITY)

Q: Uh huh. And you and your friend Miss Hill, uh, were together there

at the scene. Was anybody else with you?

A No, uh uh.

Q: OK, well we sure thank you.

FROM HERE ON OUT, the interview continues with Jean Hill

Q: (continuing)

And also, here, we do have Miss Hill. Miss Hill, you were an

eyewitness, also?

A: Yes, I was . I suppose we were the people closest to the

President's car at the time.

Q: Uh, that as about 10 or fifteen feet, you'd say?

A: Not anymore than that at all.

Q: Uh huh. You were both looking right at the presidential car, then?

A: Yes, we were looking right at the President. We were looking at his face.

As Mary took the picture, I was looking at him. And he grabbed his hands across

his ch-when two shots rang out. He grabbed his hands across his chest. I have

never seen anyone killed, or in pain before like that but there was this odd

look came across his face, and he pitched forward onto Jackie's lap.

DSL NOTE: I believe this must mean: "to the side onto Jackie's lap" --because Jackie was

to the left of JFK, not in front of JFK. In my interview of the Newman's, circa 1971, in

person, and on tape, they talk of JFK falling to the side, or being thrust towards Jackie.

A: And uh, she immediately, we were close enough to even hear her, and

everything, and she fell across him and says "My God, he's been shot."

Q: ..... Did you notice particularly any of the other people around? At the time (she cuts in)

A: There was NO one around us on our side of the street. We had planned it that way;

we wanted to be down there by ourselves; that’s the reason we had gotten almost

to the underpass, so we’d be completely in the clear.

Q: Any other reactions form the other people in the motorcae, that you recall?

A: The motorcade was stunned after the first two shots, and it came to a momentary halt,

and about that time 4 more uh, 3 to 4 more shots again rang out, and I guess it just didn't

register with me. Mary was uh had gotten down on the ground and was pulling at my leg,

saying "Get , get down, they're shooting, get down, they're shooting; and I didn't even

realize it. And I just kept sitting there looking. And uh uh just about that time, well,

of course, some of the motorcycles pulled away. And some of them pulled over to the side

and started running up the bank; there's a hill on the other side (she is interrupted)

Q: Yes, Maam.

A: And the shots came from there. After they were momentarily stopped--after the

first two shots--THEN they sped away REAL quickly.

(DELETED FOR BREVITY)

Q: Well, thank you Miss Hill, and also Miss Moorman, for speaking with us about this.

A. Thankyou.

ANNOUNCER: That's two eyewitnesses to the murdered president, who saw on his face the

anguish of his very last hour alive. Before we go back to CBS, here again are some

announcements of special local importance.

TO SUMMARIZE:

MOORMAN

1. HOW CLOSE TO CAR: 10 or fifteen foot, I, no more

2. WHERE WERE YOU: We stepped out in the street

3. HOW MANY SHOTS: three or four ... there might have been more.

4. WHAT DID MRS. KENNEDY DO: Mrs. Kennedy jumped up immediately, and fell over him;

and she said: "My God, he's been shot."

5. WHAT DID THE LIMO DO: they hesitated just for a moment...and they immediately sped up

6. WHAT DID THE MOTORCYCLES DO: they stopped

7. WHERE DID THE SHOTS COME FROM: Oh, Lord? North.

8. WHAT DID YOUR PHOTO SHOW MRS. K DOING: he's bent over, and she's... and she

hadn't even gotten up in my picture, and she DID get up, STOOD UP, in the car.

HILL:

1. HOW CLOSE TO CAR: about 10 or fifteen feet...not anymore than that at all.

2. WHAT DID THE PRESIDENT DO: he pitched forward onto Jackie's lap.

3. WHAT DID MRS. K DO: she fell across him and says "My God, he's been shot."

4. WERE THERE OTHER PEOPLE AROUND YOU: There was NO one around us on our side of the street

5. WHAT DID THE LIMO DO:The motorcade was stunned after the first two shots, and it came

to a momentary halt. After they were momentarily stopped--after the first two shots--THEN

they sped away REAL quickly.

6. WHERE DID THE SHOTS COME FROM: there's a hill on the other side...and the shots came

from there.

THIS IS FIRST DAY TESTIMONY FROM THE TWO CLOSEST WITNESSES.

Jack

B..........

[Chris Davidson]

Question to Jean Hill:

Q: Any other reactions form the other people in the motorcae, that you recall?

A: The motorcade was stunned after the first two shots, and it came to a momentary halt,

and about that time 4 more uh, 3 to 4 more shots again rang out, and I guess it just didn't

register with me. Mary was uh had gotten down on the ground and was pulling at my leg,

saying "Get , get down, they're shooting, get down, they're shooting; and I didn't even

realize it. And I just kept sitting there looking. And uh uh just about that time, well,

of course, some of the motorcycles pulled away. And some of them pulled over to the side

and started running up the bank; there's a hill on the other side (she is interrupted)

Listen to the audio!!!

I say Jean Hill pretty much nails it.

First 2 shots- approx. 1.5 seconds apart.

Approx. 6 second interval-Limo slowing then stopping.

2 more shots approx. 7/10 second apart.

As usual, Thanks for supplying the interview Bernice.

chris

[Pat Speer]

Question to Jean Hill:

Q: Any other reactions form the other people in the motorcae, that you recall?

A: The motorcade was stunned after the first two shots, and it came to a momentary halt,

and about that time 4 more uh, 3 to 4 more shots again rang out, and I guess it just didn't

register with me. Mary was uh had gotten down on the ground and was pulling at my leg,

saying "Get , get down, they're shooting, get down, they're shooting; and I didn't even

realize it. And I just kept sitting there looking. And uh uh just about that time, well,

of course, some of the motorcycles pulled away. And some of them pulled over to the side

and started running up the bank; there's a hill on the other side (she is interrupted)

Listen to the audio!!!

I say Jean Hill pretty much nails it.

First 2 shots- approx. 1.5 seconds apart.

Approx. 6 second interval-Limo slowing then stopping.

2 more shots approx. 7/10 second apart.

As usual, Thanks for supplying the interview Bernice.

chris

Chris, Jean Hill and Mary Moorman both believed the first shot was the head shot. 8 1/2 seconds after the head shot the limousine was near the underpass.

[Chris Davidson]

Question to Jean Hill:

Q: Any other reactions form the other people in the motorcae, that you recall?

A: The motorcade was stunned after the first two shots, and it came to a momentary halt,

and about that time 4 more uh, 3 to 4 more shots again rang out, and I guess it just didn't

register with me. Mary was uh had gotten down on the ground and was pulling at my leg,

saying "Get , get down, they're shooting, get down, they're shooting; and I didn't even

realize it. And I just kept sitting there looking. And uh uh just about that time, well,

of course, some of the motorcycles pulled away. And some of them pulled over to the side

and started running up the bank; there's a hill on the other side (she is interrupted)

Listen to the audio!!!

I say Jean Hill pretty much nails it.

First 2 shots- approx. 1.5 seconds apart.

Approx. 6 second interval-Limo slowing then stopping.

2 more shots approx. 7/10 second apart.

As usual, Thanks for supplying the interview Bernice.

chris

Chris, Jean Hill and Mary Moorman both believed the first shot was the head shot. 8 1/2 seconds after the head shot the limousine was near the underpass.

Pat,

Supplied is the audio interview of Jean Hill at approx. 50 minutes after the shooting. Her earliest interview I'm aware of.

Her description of the first two shots and JFK's reaction to them, is what we see as the limo appears from behind the Stemmons Sign. imo

Yet, she says this happens as the limo is even with her. Contradicts what is seen on Z film. imo

chris