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Robin Ramsay

Harvey and Lee: John Armstrong

1,654 posts in this topic

TOP 10 REASONS TO BELIEVE IN HARVEY AND LEE
10. The IMPOSSIBLE 1953 school scenario: Harvey at Youth House for truancy followed by Beauregard JHS in New Orleans while Lee has good attendance both semesters at PS 44 in NYC.
9. John Pic's inability to recognize clear photographs of his own brother.
8. The refusal of the Social Security Administration to corroborate the official story of "Oswald's" pre-1962 income, offering instead "Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report regarding employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps."
7. The Marine Corps records are a gold mine: my favorite chronicles Harvey Oswald's trip to Formosa (Taiwan) while Lee was being treated for VD in Japan.
6. The Bolton Ford incident while Harvey was in Russia.
5. Marita Lorenz's secret testimony describing Lee Oswald with anti-Castro operatives in Miami and the Everglades while Harvey was in Russia.
4. Lee Oswald visiting the Texas Employment Commission, filling out forms and taking tests, while Harvey was in Russia.
3. The impossible answer(s) to the simple questions: Could Lee Harvey Oswald drive a car? Did he have a drivers license?
2. The well documented appearance of Lee Oswald in the balcony of the Texas Theater soon after the murder of J.D. Tippit with the simultaneous arrest of Harvey Oswald on the main floor of the same theater.
1. The behavior of the FBI in the first 48 hours of the "investigation," during which the Bureau confiscated many of "Lee Harvey Oswald's" school records and employment histories. Six months later, the Bureau decided to test for fingerprints on boxes in the so-called "sniper's nest."

Jim,

But the reason gullible True Believers like you swallow the H & L Dogma "hook, line, and sinker" is twofold: 1 ) It's a perfect example of the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy, and 2 ) as such it facilitates and encourages your continuing application of The Clustering Illusion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clustering_illusion

--Tommy :sun

Tommy..

Please tell the truth. HAVE YOU ACTUALLY READ HARVEY & LEE?

Jim

Russian Spy Ring Aimed to Make Children Agents

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444097904577537044185191340

===================================================================

Jim

Graves seems to have never read book. gaal

Have you read the article?

The "children" turns out to be one. And he was 20. And his parents deny they tried to recruit saying probably quite rightly, it would have been too risky.

The clincher that the story is BS is that they claim the 20 year old stood up and saluted "Mother Russia" when the parents tried to get him to join them. That is just too corny for words.

You guys a are a crack up.

Have you read the article? planned to recruit children, see link below . ,gaal

==========================

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444097904577537044185191340

By

Devlin Barrett Updated July 31, 2012 4:13 p.m. ET

"A Russian spy ring busted in the U.S. two years ago planned to recruit members' children to become agents, and one had already agreed to his parents' request, according to current and former U.S. officials."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

link to info below >> http://www.covertbookreport.com/spy-kids-the-russians-the-finders-and-the-family/

"It seems quite possible that nearly every country in the world may have some similar operation going on – with the intent of penetrating various government agencies. But things get weirder and weirder. Here’s a piece I wrote on “The Finders” in 2010:

Did The Finders Create a “Bourne Identity”?

Suppose you have a thirty-year cult, run by a southern eccentric with ties to the Central Intelligence Agency.

Suppose that cult raised children in austere surroundings combined with advanced education, perhaps to be used by said intelligence agency?

Suppose that cult was investigated for child abuse/neglect but the investigation was shut down for “National Security” reasons?

Sound like something out of a movie? Young “Jason Bournes” being created, nurtured and trained for future use? Well, something like that seems to have happened in “The Finders” cult.

The unraveling of “The Finders” case brought to the forefront many long-rumored stories about possible child trafficking as well as those about children being trained for use as spies and assassins.

In February 1987, a tip to the police led to the arrest of two “well dressed men” in a park in Tallahassee Florida. The men appeared to be “supervising” a group of six disheveled and hungry children. The men, who were based out of Washington D.C., were charged with child abuse. The D.C. police raided a house and warehouse, where they found many items that implicated “The Finders” cult in international intrigue and what appears to be ritual sacrifice of animals. The children were temporarily moved to an undisclosed location under armed guard due to threats to authorities.

This all sounds like typical internet rumor-mongering, except the story was carried by The New York Times and U.S. News And World Report.

The smoking gun was a report by U.S. Customs agent Ramon Martinez. Customs was called in to investigate a possible link to child pornography or child trafficking, and the Martinez document is shocking. There were indeed photos of many children, some naked. This in itself is not surprising due to the commune-type upbringing of The Finders. There were also photos of members in white robes, with the children, in what appears to be ritual sacrifice of goats. The Finders claim it was merely typical harvesting of animals on a farm, but the children actively participated in the disembowelment.

At the time of the arrest, despite the “well dressed” appearance of the adult men, the children seemed to have no knowledge of such things as electricity and hot running water. In a strange twist, they seemed highly educated. Details of what was found in the warehouse and the customs report can be read in this report by Dave McGowan.

Other items seized from the finders included Telex messages about obtaining children from Hong Kong, international money transfers, and this, from the Martinez report:

“Further inspection of the premises disclosed numerous files relating to activities of the organization in different parts of the world. Locations I observed are as follows: London, Germany, the Bahamas, Japan, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Africa, Costa Rica, and ‘Europe.’ There was also a file identified as ‘Palestinian.’ Other files were identified by member name or ‘project’ name. The projects appearing to be operated for commercial purposes under front names for the Finders. There was one file entitled ‘Pentagon Break-In,’ and others referring to members operating in foreign countries”.

Everything in this case points to a possible prosecution for child abuse, but the investigation was shut down for National Security reasons.

Marion Pettie was the leader of “The Finders” cult. Described as a tall, well-built southern gentleman, Pettie maintained a large property in Culpepper Virginia and the locations that were raided in Washington D.C.

He has admitted that his wife had worked for the CIA and that his son flew for the CIA airline “Air America”, long known for it’s drug-trafficking exploits in Southeast Asia.

In an excellent interview in the Washington “City Paper”, Pettie described his role as “Game Caller”. He instructed his followers to live by the day, hour, minute. He would send them on “projects”, often to foreign countries. All the Finders men dressed like FBI agents, in conservative dark suits. Not exactly your typical hippie-cult attire.

At the dawn of the computer era, Pettie recruited a talented computer engineer who trained members of The Finders in computer technology. They went on to run a project for – you guessed it, The CIA.

Pettie openly admits that he ran a safe house for members of intelligence agencies, from The Office of Navel Intelligence, to the OSS, to any spook that needed a place to hang out. He claims he would “study them”.

The children that were found in the park with the “well-dressed men” were returned to their mothers and the cult. The investigation was dropped.

The most recent information I could research on The Finders was a blog post by a guy named Michael Phillips. Phillips claims to have met The Finders in San Francisco in the 1970’s. Phillips respects the group, and thinks they had innovative ideas. Several Finders-type comments followed his blog post, one saying that Pettie and other founding members were now dead, and thanked him for the kind words. Phillips had just proof-read a 550-page manuscript of a book on the finders by member Robert “Tobe” Terrell.

Another questionable report on a New Zealand Indymedia blog said that The Finders had relocated to Taiwan. I don’t know about that.

——–

We will never know the true story of “The Finders”, what they were training the children for, or the source of their wealth. The Washington “City Paper” article says that some former members were suing Pettie and the remaining estate of the cult.

The articles I researched are split into at least three categories. The right-wing writers focus on Satanic ritual abuse. The left side suspects the children may have been programed to be spies or assassins. People like the blogger Phillips suggest they were just elaborate role-playing adventurers.

It is well known that intelligence agencies run programs resembling The Finders, such as the Kool-Aid massacres in Jonestown. It’s easy to pull a Sirhan-Sirhan or Lee Harvey Oswald out of these groups when they need one.

But let’s close with this chilling conclusion to the report of U.S. Customs officer Martinez:

“On April 2, 1987, I arrived at MPD at approximately 9:00 a.m. Detective Bradley was not available. I spoke to a third party who was willing to discuss the case with me on a strictly ‘off the record’ basis.

“I was advised that all the passport data had been turned over to the State Department for their investigation. The State Department in turn, advised the MPD that all travel and use of the passports by the holders of the passports was within the law and no action would be taken. This included travel to Moscow, North Korea, and North Vietnam from the late 1950s to mid 1970s.

“The individual further advised me of circumstances which indicated that the investigation into the activity of the Finders had become a CIA internal matter. The MPD report has been classified SECRET and was not available for review. I was advised that the FBI had withdrawn from the investigation several weeks prior and that the FBI Foreign Counter Intelligence Division had directed MPD not to advise the FBI Washington Field Office of anything that had transpired.

“No further information will be available. No further action will be taken.” "

———————————————–

UPDATE:

The spy aged EIGHT: How American forces recruited a young boy to plant a chip on his stepfather – an Al Qaeda target in Yemen – so they could kill him in a drone strikeNew allegations claim that an 8-year-old Yemeni boy who was abandoned by his biological family was then roped back into their clutches

The boy’s biological father works for the Yemeni Republican Guard, which helps U.S. forces, and they asked have an al Qaeda operative located

That operative had been added to the U.S. ‘kill list’

The Republican Guard knew that one of their officer’s children had been taken in by that target, Adnan al-Qadhi, so they called the biological father and asked him to have his son place the chip on the surrogate father

The boy complied and days later, Qadhi was killed in a drone strike

By Daily Mail Reporter

PUBLISHED: 18:21 EST, 15 August 2013 | UPDATED: 09:10 EST, 16 August 2013

Edited by Steven Gaal

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for what it's worth, integrous, subjective and honest researchers and reviewers read BOTH sides of an issue before attempting any kind of subjective judgement. that's just plain responsible research.

if I TRULY want to know the truth, then i CANNOT be afraid to read literature from "the other side." I cannot be confident in my convictions if I have NOT weighed them against alternatives. For instance, inwardly I cannot in any way see how Gen Walker could be a major leader in something of this size. BUT - In my honest quest for TRUTH, i have refrained from blasting it since I have read nothing to speak of on the subject. I can only solidify my convictions when i've satisfactorily refuted the rest for myself.

And I CANNOT honestly lambast the opposing theories if I haven't actually read the research first. key word being 'honestly.'

I cannot imagine being so vehemently against anything without first having actually studied what it is about it that I find improbable, impossible or just plain stupid. that'd be stupid.

but maybe that's just me.

EDIT: I mean, there's even an option having been presented that ---> an alien presence plays a large role in this thing. Now, everything in me wants to scream "are you effin' kidding me?" But this 'option' coming from a most reputable person, and since i do my best to adhere to an honest approach to theories both comfortable and not so much (i said 'do my best to', not 'do'), i refrain from bucking at this quite astronomic idea. It comes from a respectful source, and - with a certain few in mind: who the hell am I to pass judgement on someone else's opinions? effin' God?

Edited by Glenn Nall

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for what it's worth, integrous, subjective and honest researchers and reviewers read BOTH sides of an issue before attempting any kind of subjective judgement. that's just plain responsible research.

if I TRULY want to know the truth, then i CANNOT be afraid to read literature from "the other side." I cannot be confident in my convictions if I have NOT weighed them against alternatives. For instance, inwardly I cannot in any way see how Gen Walker could be a major leader in something of this size. BUT - In my honest quest for TRUTH, i have refrained from blasting it since I have read nothing to speak of on the subject. I can only solidify my convictions when i've satisfactorily refuted the rest for myself.

And I CANNOT honestly lambast the opposing theories if I haven't actually read the research first. key word being 'honestly.'

I cannot imagine being so vehemently against anything without first having actually studied what it is about it that I find improbable, impossible or just plain stupid. that'd be stupid.

but maybe that's just me.

EDIT: I mean, there's even an option having been presented that ---> an alien presence plays a large role in this thing. Now, everything in me wants to scream "are you effin' kidding me?" But this 'option' coming from a most reputable person, and since i do my best to adhere to an honest approach to theories both comfortable and not so much (i said 'do my best to', not 'do'), i refrain from bucking at this quite astronomic idea. It comes from a respectful source, and - with a certain few in mind: who the hell am I to pass judgement on someone else's opinions? effin' God?

"who the hell am I to pass judgement on someone else's opinions?"

A citizen with his own (maybe contradictory, maybe complimentary) opinions. That's the fun of living in a democracy.

Do you say this before you vote for anyone?

Do you say that whilst doing jury service?

Do you not pass judgement on the opinions of violent dictators?

Would communists in the Whitehouse encourage your judgement on their opinions?

You have an extremely over inflated sense of your own self worth that doesn't tally with reality. You've done nothing BUT pass judgement since you exploded onto here a few weeks ago. That's why you are here!

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for what it's worth, integrous, subjective and honest researchers and reviewers read BOTH sides of an issue before attempting any kind of subjective judgement. that's just plain responsible research.

if I TRULY want to know the truth, then i CANNOT be afraid to read literature from "the other side." I cannot be confident in my convictions if I have NOT weighed them against alternatives. For instance, inwardly I cannot in any way see how Gen Walker could be a major leader in something of this size. BUT - In my honest quest for TRUTH, i have refrained from blasting it since I have read nothing to speak of on the subject. I can only solidify my convictions when i've satisfactorily refuted the rest for myself.

And I CANNOT honestly lambast the opposing theories if I haven't actually read the research first. key word being 'honestly.'

I cannot imagine being so vehemently against anything without first having actually studied what it is about it that I find improbable, impossible or just plain stupid. that'd be stupid.

but maybe that's just me.

EDIT: I mean, there's even an option having been presented that ---> an alien presence plays a large role in this thing. Now, everything in me wants to scream "are you effin' kidding me?" But this 'option' coming from a most reputable person, and since i do my best to adhere to an honest approach to theories both comfortable and not so much (i said 'do my best to', not 'do'), i refrain from bucking at this quite astronomic idea. It comes from a respectful source, and - with a certain few in mind: who the hell am I to pass judgement on someone else's opinions? effin' God?

"who the hell am I to pass judgement on someone else's opinions?"

A citizen with his own (maybe contradictory, maybe complimentary) opinions. That's the fun of living in a democracy.

Do you say this before you vote for anyone?

Do you say that whilst doing jury service?

Do you not pass judgement on the opinions of violent dictators?

Would communists in the Whitehouse encourage your judgement on their opinions?

You have an extremely over inflated sense of your own self worth that doesn't tally with reality. You've done nothing BUT pass judgement since you exploded onto here a few weeks ago. That's why you are here!

pass judgement versus have an opinion. to me these are two entirely different things. they are apparently not to you.

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WOW! Nor a WORD from ...

Thomas Graves

Sheeesh!

whether he answers or not, I'm thinkin' the answer is pretty clear... but that's just me...

-- Nall

Glenn,

Hargrove asked me whether or not I had read Harvey and Lee. I answered his question. Before you made your inane statement in post # 1420. Did you read my answer five posts before yours? I'm thinkin' the answer's real clear -- No you didn't, otherwise you wouldn't have posted your inane, vaguely insulting, chicken-you-know-what statement. Here's the pertinent part, Glenn, so you can read it and get over it.

[from post # 1415 # 1413]

Now, to answer your question, [Jim Hargrove], heck no, I haven't read Harvey and Lee! Why the heck would I want to waste my time doing given its patently ridiculous premises -- 1 ) that two young boys (and their mothers!) were chosen by the bad guys to participate in an elaborate double-doppelganger project, and that the bad guys somehow knew that the two boys would grow up to look very similar (when necessary) and very different (when necessary); ditto their mothers after they were already adults, 2 ) that "Lee" was (evidently) moved around and hidden in "safe" houses for two-and-one-half years so that he wouldn't bump into any of his friends and acquaintances while "Harvey" was in the USSR, and 3 ) that both "Lee's" and "Harvey's" families were "in on" the project all the way, and have miraculously been able to keep from "spilling the beans" / "letting the cat out of the bag" on it, both before and after the assassination, for about 60 years now. Seems to me the bad guys would have killed them all a long time ago to prevent that from happening. But then again maybe that wasn't necessary because the bad guys just MKULTRA-ed all of them 60 years ago to exhibit zombie-like silence and programmed ..... obfuscation. You know, with occasional "limited hangouts." That's it, isn't it, Jim.

(Speaking of pinto beans, I think Armstrong must have eaten a 55-gallon drum of them and the resultant gas caused him to come up with these weirdo ideas. Or was it ... mushrooms???)

To tell you the truth, Jim, I'm starting to entertain the idea that H&L is nothing but an elaborate CIA "disinfo project," designed to divide and confuse the JFK assassination research community.

For now, Jim, I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm gonna assume that you're just suffering from the effects of the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy and its psychological corollary,the Clustering Illusion Syndrome. Add a liberal dash of paranoia and what do you hav? The Harvey and Lee Cult.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clustering_illusion

--Tommy :sun

I'm starting to realize that your name could easily mis-spelled by anybody as ""Null" (almost did it myself --LOL), which would be ironic and perfect because, well, although you post often, you don't seem to have much of value to say on this forum. You seem to be kind of a .... dilettante? A gadfly, ... if you will?

"No offense," Glenn.

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Now, to answer your question, [Jim Hargrove], heck no, I haven't read Harvey and Lee!

To tell you the truth, Jim, I'm starting to entertain the idea that H&L is nothing but an elaborate CIA "disinfo project," designed to divide and confuse the JFK assassination research community.

Yo, genius... how would you know if you are not familiar with the information?

How can you even begin to entertain any thoughts based on your preconcieved conclusions which are, in turn, not based on the material...

Imagine you know nothing about the JFK murder and I tell you that Oswald wasn't at the window, never owned the rifle or pistol and that the films and photos have been altered to cover up a government conspiracy... And the proof is in this book.

In 1964 that sounded pretty crazy. but lo and behold... if you read the work that shows this to be true you can actually form an educated opinion.

Are you normally in the habit of providing others your completely uninformed opinions and expect them to be given any credibility?

When JVB claimed to do what she did, she offered proof which at every turn, at every look - FELL APART.

When JA points to and goes the extra mile to acquire the info our gov't wouldn't, and over and over again the conflicts rear their head...

you, Bernie and Greg...

34513-see_hear_speak_no_evil.jpg

....might consider not repeatedly looking the fool and read up on it. Or at least admit you're so out of your league related to the info and evidence that you CAN'T come to an opinion - that you'd reserve it until you did some work.

Is this how you approach other subjects tommy? Decide BEFORE you do the research what you're going to think and then stubbornly refuse to consider the source materials which are easily available. then stand on a soap box and proclaim your ignorance?

Sure looks that way to everyone here... and your attempts to cover this ignorance with "wittiness" :rolleyes: are almost as bad as your dedication to NOT learning the subject.

I now know a great deal about H&L. I studied it and continue to discover new things all the time, just like the JFK assassination.

What do YOU know a great deal about Tommy?

Edited by David Josephs

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WOW! Nor a WORD from ...

Thomas Graves

Sheeesh!

whether he answers or not, I'm thinkin' the answer is pretty clear... but that's just me...

-- Nall

Glenn,

Hargrove asked me whether or not I had read Harvey and Lee. I answered his question. Before you made your inane statement in post # 1420. Did you read my answer five posts before yours? I'm thinkin' the answer's real clear -- No you didn't, otherwise you wouldn't have posted your inane, vaguely insulting, chicken-you-know-what statement. Here's the pertinent part, Glenn, so you can read it and get over it.

[from post #1415]

Now, to answer your question, [Jim Hargrove], heck no, I haven't read Harvey and Lee! Why the heck would I want to waste my time doing given its patently ridiculous premises -- 1 ) that two young boys (and their mothers!) were chosen by the bad guys to participate in an elaborate double-doppelganger project, and that the bad guys somehow knew that the two boys would grow up to look very similar (when necessary) and very different (when necessary); ditto their mothers after they were already adults, 2 ) that "Lee" was (evidently) moved around and hidden in "safe" houses for two-and-one-half years so that he wouldn't bump into any of his friends and acquaintances while "Harvey" was in the USSR, and 3 ) that both "Lee's" and "Harvey's" families were "in on" the project all the way, and have miraculously been able to keep from "spilling the beans" / "letting the cat out of the bag" on it, both before and after the assassination, for about 60 years now. Seems to me the bad guys would have killed them all a long time ago to prevent that from happening. But then again maybe that wasn't necessary because the bad guys just MKULTRA-ed all of them 60 years ago to exhibit zombie-like silence and programmed ..... obfuscation. You know, with occasional "limited hangouts." That's it, isn't it, Jim.

(Speaking of pinto beans, I think Armstrong must have eaten a 55-gallon drum of them and the resultant gas caused him to come up with these weirdo ideas. Or was it ... mushrooms???)

To tell you the truth, Jim, I'm starting to entertain the idea that H&L is nothing but an elaborate CIA "disinfo project," designed to divide and confuse the JFK assassination research community.

For now, Jim, I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm gonna assume that you're just suffering from the effects of the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy and its psychological corollary,the Clustering Illusion Syndrome. Add a liberal dash of paranoia and what do you hav? The Harvey and Lee Cult.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clustering_illusion

--Tommy :sun

I'm starting to realize that your name could easily mis-spelled by anybody as ""Null" (almost did it myself --LOL), which would be ironic and perfect because, well, although you post often, you don't seem to have much of value to say on this forum. You seem to be kind of a .... dilettante? A gadfly, ... if you will?

"No offense," Glenn.

--Tommy :sun

nothing chicken xxxx about it, Thomas. I implied that i don't think you've read it, and then you admitted you haven't, then i said i don't know how someone can be such an authority as to so summarily dismiss such a complex theory without having read a book by its proponent. it's simple. to defeat an enemy you have to know the enemy.

what's chicken xxxx is attacking me when i've given you no reason to. and before you go saying i'm being a baby, i'll refer any of the instigators to the fact that the admin here have already posted a warning against such agitation. I'm remiss in responding to it, but I'm damn sure not guilty of instigating it.

if you don't like the fact that my opinion differs from yours, then there has to be some means of peace within yourself to overcome it. therapy, something. but attacking me isn't going to help your situation at all.

and believe me, it's not going to hurt mine.

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nothing chicken xxxx about it, Thomas. I implied that i don't think you've read it, and then you admitted you haven't, then i said i don't know how someone can be such an authority as to so summarily dismiss such a complex theory without having read a book by its proponent. it's simple. to defeat an enemy you have to know the enemy.

Can't be that complex, Glen. Dawn Meredith gave a talk on the book at one of the conferences before ever reading it.

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Now, to answer your question, [Jim Hargrove], heck no, I haven't read Harvey and Lee!

To tell you the truth, Jim, I'm starting to entertain the idea that H&L is nothing but an elaborate CIA "disinfo project," designed to divide and confuse the JFK assassination research community.

Yo, genius... how would you know if you are not familiar with the information?

How can you even begin to entertain any thoughts based on your preconcieved conclusions which are, in turn, not based on the material...

Imagine you know nothing about the JFK murder and I tell you that Oswald wasn't at the window, never owned the rifle or pistol and that the films and photos have been altered to cover up a government conspiracy... And the proof is in this book.

In 1964 that sounded pretty crazy. but lo and behold... if you read the work that shows this to be true you can actually form an educated opinion.

Are you normally in the habit of providing others your completely uninformed opinions and expect them to be given any credibility?

When JVB claimed to do what she did, she offered proof which at every turn, at every look - FELL APART.

When JA points to and goes the extra mile to acquire the info our gov't wouldn't, and over and over again the conflicts rear their head...

you, Bernie and Greg...

34513-see_hear_speak_no_evil.jpg

....might consider not repeatedly looking the fool and read up on it. Or at least admit you're so out of your league related to the info and evidence that you CAN'T come to an opinion - that you'd reserve it until you did some work.

Is this how you approach other subjects tommy? Decide BEFORE you do the research what you're going to think and then stubbornly refuse to consider the source materials which are easily available. then stand on a soap box and proclaim your ignorance?

Sure looks that way to everyone here... and your attempts to cover this ignorance with "wittiness" :rolleyes: are almost as bad as your dedication to NOT learning the subject.

I now know a great deal about H&L. I studied it and continue to discover new things all the time, just like the JFK assassination.

What do YOU know a great deal about Tommy?

joseph,

If somebody wrote a 1000 page book and the author's conclusion, as proclaimed on the back cover and inside in the 2-page "introduction," (both of which you read at the store while trying to decide whether or not to buy the book) that "The Moon Is Made Out Of Green Cheese," and the author claimed to have proved it with 1000 pages of documents, photographs, and his or her "analysis," would you read the book?

Why?

--tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Now, to answer your question, [Jim Hargrove], heck no, I haven't read Harvey and Lee!

To tell you the truth, Jim, I'm starting to entertain the idea that H&L is nothing but an elaborate CIA "disinfo project," designed to divide and confuse the JFK assassination research community.

Yo, genius... how would you know if you are not familiar with the information?

How can you even begin to entertain any thoughts based on your preconcieved conclusions which are, in turn, not based on the material...

Imagine you know nothing about the JFK murder and I tell you that Oswald wasn't at the window, never owned the rifle or pistol and that the films and photos have been altered to cover up a government conspiracy... And the proof is in this book.

In 1964 that sounded pretty crazy. but lo and behold... if you read the work that shows this to be true you can actually form an educated opinion.

Are you normally in the habit of providing others your completely uninformed opinions and expect them to be given any credibility?

When JVB claimed to do what she did, she offered proof which at every turn, at every look - FELL APART.

When JA points to and goes the extra mile to acquire the info our gov't wouldn't, and over and over again the conflicts rear their head...

you, Bernie and Greg...

34513-see_hear_speak_no_evil.jpg

....might consider not repeatedly looking the fool and read up on it. Or at least admit you're so out of your league related to the info and evidence that you CAN'T come to an opinion - that you'd reserve it until you did some work.

Is this how you approach other subjects tommy? Decide BEFORE you do the research what you're going to think and then stubbornly refuse to consider the source materials which are easily available. then stand on a soap box and proclaim your ignorance?

Sure looks that way to everyone here... and your attempts to cover this ignorance with "wittiness" :rolleyes: are almost as bad as your dedication to NOT learning the subject.

I now know a great deal about H&L. I studied it and continue to discover new things all the time, just like the JFK assassination.

What do YOU know a great deal about Tommy?

D. at the risk of sounding like i'm brown-nosing (I'm not since i haven't even pronounced my own definitive stance since i don't have one yet), I think i'm beginning to see a separation of the instigators and the objective truth seekers. some say they're real researchers, but they honestly only bash others' theories, while some somehow just naturally sound credible in their posts.

speaking of which, where's DVP?

:)

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unfollowing so i can get something done. ta ta

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Now, to answer your question, [Jim Hargrove], heck no, I haven't read Harvey and Lee!

To tell you the truth, Jim, I'm starting to entertain the idea that H&L is nothing but an elaborate CIA "disinfo project," designed to divide and confuse the JFK assassination research community.

Yo, genius... how would you know if you are not familiar with the information?

How can you even begin to entertain any thoughts based on your preconcieved [sic] conclusions which are, in turn, not based on the material...

Imagine you know nothing about the JFK murder and I tell you that Oswald wasn't at the window, never owned the rifle or pistol and that the films and photos have been altered to cover up a government conspiracy... And the proof is in this book.

In 1964 that sounded pretty crazy. but lo and behold... if you read the work that shows this to be true you can actually form an educated opinion.

Are you normally in the habit of providing others your completely uninformed opinions and expect them to be given any credibility?

When JVB claimed to do what she did, she offered proof which at every turn, at every look - FELL APART.

When JA points to and goes the extra mile to acquire the info our gov't wouldn't, and over and over again the conflicts rear their head...

you, Bernie and Greg...

34513-see_hear_speak_no_evil.jpg

....might consider not repeatedly looking the fool and read up on it. Or at least admit you're so out of your league related to the info and evidence that you CAN'T come to an opinion - that you'd reserve it until you did some work.

Is this how you approach other subjects tommy? Decide BEFORE you do the research what you're going to think and then stubbornly refuse to consider the source materials which are easily available. Then stand on a soap box and proclaim your ignorance?

Sure looks that way to everyone here... and your attempts to cover this ignorance with "wittiness" :rolleyes: are almost as bad as your dedication to NOT learning the subject.

I now know a great deal about H&L. I studied it and continue to discover new things all the time, just like the JFK assassination.

What do YOU know a great deal about Tommy?

Dear joseph,

If somebody wrote a 1000 page book which was on the Podunk Times Best Seller's List and the author's conclusion was, as proclaimed on the back cover and inside in the 2-page "introduction," (both of which you read at the store while trying to decide whether or not to buy the book) that "The Moon Is Made Out Of Green Cheese !!!," and the author claimed to have absolutely proved it with 1000 pages of documents, photographs, and his or her "analysis," would you read the book? Would you spend half a lifetime "fact checking" the documents (to make sure he hadn't forged or altered them, mis-dated them, or simply analysed them incorrectly), etc?

Why would you do that, joseph? Because it was on the Podunk Times Best Seller's List?

--tommy :sun

PS Hilarious photo of the monkeys BTW!

LOL

bumped for joseph

PS It's interesting how you kinda "fudged" my quote in your post by deleting most of it but not indicating with a "[...]" or something similar that you had done so.

Here's a rhetorical question for you -- Do you kinda "fudge" stuff, often, Joseph? Leave things out a lot?

Here's the part you left out from between the two sentences of mine that you did quote:

[...] Why the heck would I want to waste my time doing given [H&L's] patently ridiculous premises -- 1 ) that two young boys (and their mothers!) were chosen by the bad guys to participate in an elaborate double-doppelganger project, and that the bad guys somehow knew that the two boys would grow up to look very similar (when necessary) and very different (when necessary); ditto their mothers after they were already adults, 2 ) that "Lee" was (evidently) moved around and hidden in "safe" houses for two-and-one-half years so that he wouldn't bump into any of his friends and acquaintances while "Harvey" was in the USSR, and 3 ) that both "Lee's" and "Harvey's" families were "in on" the project all the way, and have miraculously been able to keep from "spilling the beans" / "letting the cat out of the bag" on it, both before and after the assassination, for about 60 years now. Seems to me the bad guys would have killed them all a long time ago to prevent that from happening. But then again maybe that wasn't necessary because the bad guys just MKULTRA-ed all of them 60 years ago to exhibit zombie-like silence and programmed ..... obfuscation. You know, with occasional "limited hangouts." That's it, isn't it, Jim.

(Speaking of pinto beans, I think Armstrong must have eaten a 55-gallon drum of them and the resultant gas caused him to come up with these weirdo ideas. Or was it ... mushrooms???) [...]

And of course, joseph, you left out the most important part of all, the finale:

[...] For now, Jim, I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm gonna assume that you're just suffering from the effects of the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy and its psychological corollary,the Clustering Illusion Syndrome. Add a liberal dash of paranoia and what do you hav? The Harvey and Lee Cult.

https://en.wikipedia...shooter_fallacy

https://en.wikipedia...tering_illusion

--Tommy :sun

Shame on you, joseph.

Edited by Thomas Graves

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WOW! Nor a WORD from ...

Thomas Graves

Sheeesh!

whether he answers or not, I'm thinkin' the answer is pretty clear... but that's just me...

-- Nall

Glenn,

Hargrove asked me whether or not I had read Harvey and Lee. I answered his question. Before you made your inane statement in post # 1420. Did you read my answer five posts before yours? I'm thinkin' the answer's real clear -- No you didn't, otherwise you wouldn't have posted your inane, vaguely insulting, chicken-you-know-what statement. Here's the pertinent part, Glenn, so you can read it and get over it.

[from post # 1415 1413]

Now, to answer your question, [Jim Hargrove], heck no, I haven't read Harvey and Lee! Why the heck would I want to waste my time doing given its patently ridiculous premises -- 1 ) that two young boys (and their mothers!) were chosen by the bad guys to participate in an elaborate double-doppelganger project, and that the bad guys somehow knew that the two boys would grow up to look very similar (when necessary) and very different (when necessary); ditto their mothers after they were already adults, 2 ) that "Lee" was (evidently) moved around and hidden in "safe" houses for two-and-one-half years so that he wouldn't bump into any of his friends and acquaintances while "Harvey" was in the USSR, and 3 ) that both "Lee's" and "Harvey's" families were "in on" the project all the way, and have miraculously been able to keep from "spilling the beans" / "letting the cat out of the bag" on it, both before and after the assassination, for about 60 years now. Seems to me the bad guys would have killed them all a long time ago to prevent that from happening. But then again maybe that wasn't necessary because the bad guys just MKULTRA-ed all of them 60 years ago to exhibit zombie-like silence and programmed ..... obfuscation. You know, with occasional "limited hangouts." That's it, isn't it, Jim.

(Speaking of pinto beans, I think Armstrong must have eaten a 55-gallon drum of them and the resultant gas caused him to come up with these weirdo ideas. Or was it ... mushrooms???)

To tell you the truth, Jim, I'm starting to entertain the idea that H&L is nothing but an elaborate CIA "disinfo project," designed to divide and confuse the JFK assassination research community.

For now, Jim, I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm gonna assume that you're just suffering from the effects of the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy and its psychological corollary,the Clustering Illusion Syndrome. Add a liberal dash of paranoia and what do you hav? The Harvey and Lee Cult.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clustering_illusion

--Tommy :sun

I'm starting to realize that your name could easily mis-spelled by anybody as ""Null" (almost did it myself --LOL), which would be ironic and perfect because, well, although you post often, you don't seem to have much of value to say on this forum. You seem to be kind of a .... dilettante? A gadfly, ... if you will?

"No offense," Glenn.

--Tommy :sun

nothing chicken xxxx about it, Thomas. I implied that i don't think you've read it, and then you admitted you haven't, then i said i don't know how someone can be such an authority as to so summarily dismiss such a complex theory without having read a book by its proponent. it's simple. to defeat an enemy you have to know the enemy.

what's chicken xxxx is attacking me when i've given you no reason to. and before you go saying i'm being a baby, i'll refer any of the instigators to the fact that the admin here have already posted a warning against such agitation. I'm remiss in responding to it, but I'm damn sure not guilty of instigating it.

if you don't like the fact that my opinion differs from yours, then there has to be some means of peace within yourself to overcome it. therapy, something. but attacking me isn't going to help your situation at all.

and believe me, it's not going to hurt mine.

You got it backwards, Glenn. First, in post # 1413, I "admitted" that I hadn't read it. And I explained why. Then, seven posts later, in post #1420, you oh-so-subtly "implied" that you thought I hadn't read it.

Your subtle grasp of the obvious is amazing. Your laziness is astounding. Your willingness to improperly "jump" on somebody oh-so-subtly is rather depressing, actually. Why are you here? Are you just a dil-la-taunt?

The hypocrisy you evidence is ironic: You obviously hadn't read my "admission" that I hadn't read H&L, but oh-so-subtly attacked me for allegedly not saying whether or not I had read it!

What a hypocrite.

No offense.

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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WOW! Nor a WORD from ...

Thomas Graves

Sheeesh!

whether he answers or not, I'm thinkin' the answer is pretty clear... but that's just me...

-- Nall

Glenn,

Hargrove asked me whether or not I had read Harvey and Lee. I answered his question. Before you made your inane statement in post # 1420. Did you read my answer five posts before yours? I'm thinkin' the answer's real clear -- No you didn't, otherwise you wouldn't have posted your inane, vaguely insulting, chicken-you-know-what statement. Here's the pertinent part, Glenn, so you can read it and get over it.

[from post #1415]

Now, to answer your question, [Jim Hargrove], heck no, I haven't read Harvey and Lee! Why the heck would I want to waste my time doing given its patently ridiculous premises -- 1 ) that two young boys (and their mothers!) were chosen by the bad guys to participate in an elaborate double-doppelganger project, and that the bad guys somehow knew that the two boys would grow up to look very similar (when necessary) and very different (when necessary); ditto their mothers after they were already adults, 2 ) that "Lee" was (evidently) moved around and hidden in "safe" houses for two-and-one-half years so that he wouldn't bump into any of his friends and acquaintances while "Harvey" was in the USSR, and 3 ) that both "Lee's" and "Harvey's" families were "in on" the project all the way, and have miraculously been able to keep from "spilling the beans" / "letting the cat out of the bag" on it, both before and after the assassination, for about 60 years now. Seems to me the bad guys would have killed them all a long time ago to prevent that from happening. But then again maybe that wasn't necessary because the bad guys just MKULTRA-ed all of them 60 years ago to exhibit zombie-like silence and programmed ..... obfuscation. You know, with occasional "limited hangouts." That's it, isn't it, Jim.

(Speaking of pinto beans, I think Armstrong must have eaten a 55-gallon drum of them and the resultant gas caused him to come up with these weirdo ideas. Or was it ... mushrooms???)

To tell you the truth, Jim, I'm starting to entertain the idea that H&L is nothing but an elaborate CIA "disinfo project," designed to divide and confuse the JFK assassination research community.

For now, Jim, I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm gonna assume that you're just suffering from the effects of the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy and its psychological corollary,the Clustering Illusion Syndrome. Add a liberal dash of paranoia and what do you hav? The Harvey and Lee Cult.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clustering_illusion

--Tommy :sun

I'm starting to realize that your name could easily mis-spelled by anybody as ""Null" (almost did it myself --LOL), which would be ironic and perfect because, well, although you post often, you don't seem to have much of value to say on this forum. You seem to be kind of a .... dilettante? A gadfly, ... if you will?

"No offense," Glenn.

--Tommy :sun

nothing chicken xxxx about it, Thomas. I implied that i don't think you've read it, and then you admitted you haven't, then i said i don't know how someone can be such an authority as to so summarily dismiss such a complex theory without having read a book by its proponent. it's simple. to defeat an enemy you have to know the enemy.

what's chicken xxxx is attacking me when i've given you no reason to. and before you go saying i'm being a baby, i'll refer any of the instigators to the fact that the admin here have already posted a warning against such agitation. I'm remiss in responding to it, but I'm damn sure not guilty of instigating it.

if you don't like the fact that my opinion differs from yours, then there has to be some means of peace within yourself to overcome it. therapy, something. but attacking me isn't going to help your situation at all.

and believe me, it's not going to hurt mine.

You got it backwards, Glenn. First, in post # 1413, I "admitted" that I hadn't read it. And I explained why. Then, seven posts later, in post #1420, you oh-so-subtly "implied" that you thought I hadn't read it.

Your subtle grasp of the obvious is amazing. Your laziness is astounding. Your willingness to improperly "jump" on somebody oh-so-subtly is rather depressing, actually. Why are you here? Are you just a dil-la-taunt?

The hypocrisy you evidence is ironic: You obviously hadn't read my "admission" that I hadn't read H&L, but oh-so-subtly attacked me for allegedly not saying whether or not I had read it!

What a hypocrite.

No offense.

--Tommy :sun

Hey Tommy, why waste time on someone who boasts about regularly being called a racist?

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And whose professed main interest is "putting our U.S. Constitution back in worthy hands." You know, bein' from a form-ah Confederacy State and awlllll...

Edited by Thomas Graves

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