• Announcements

    • Evan Burton

      OPEN REGISTRATION BY EMAIL ONLY !!! PLEASE CLICK ON THIS TITLE FOR INFORMATION REQUIRED FOR REGISTRATION!:   06/03/2017

      We have 5 requirements for registration: 1.Sign up with your real name. (This will be your Username) 2.A valid email address 3.Your agreement to the Terms of Use, seen here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=21403. 4. Your photo for use as an avatar  5.. A brief biography. We will post these for you, and send you your password. We cannot approve membership until we receive these. If you are interested, please send an email to: edforumbusiness@outlook.com We look forward to having you as a part of the Forum! Sincerely, The Education Forum Team
David Von Pein

John Connally's Lapel

243 posts in this topic

This frame 270 [iT'S ACTUALLY FRAME 273, NOT 270] shows Connally turning round to look at JFK. David, do you really think he did this nearly three seconds after being shot in the back?

What makes you think Connally should have instantly collapsed into a heap in the car after he was shot?

I know that there have been some conspiracists over the years who have advocated the notion that John Connally was not hit by ANY bullet until AFTER President Kennedy was shot in the head. But it's fairly obvious (to me) that when looking at the Zapruder Film in motion, Connally has been injured well prior to Z313. It's very clear (to me) that he is exhibiting a considerable amount of distress just after Z-Film frame 224 and in the frames that immediately follow....

Z-FilmClipSBTInMotion.gif

Plus, we know from Governor Connally's own testimony and his many public interviews after the assassination (four of which can be found below) that he didn't say "My God, they're going to kill us all" until AFTER he was hit by the bullet....

"I immediately, when I was hit, I said, "Oh, no, no, no." And then I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all"." -- John Connally; 1964 WC Testimony

"Then I said right after I was hit, I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all"." -- John Connally; 1978 HSCA Testimony

And we can easily see in the above Z-Film excerpt that Mr. Connally's mouth is moving and he is most certainly SAYING SOMETHING as he turns around in his seat.

Now, conspiracy theorists can always argue that we really can't KNOW for a fact WHAT the Texas Governor was uttering as we see his mouth moving in the above pre-Z313 frames, but that argument is not a very strong one in light of the testimony of both John and Nellie Connally, who testified that the ONLY words being uttered by the Governor immediately after he was shot were "Oh, no, no, no" and "My God, they're going to kill us all".

Perhaps what we need is a really good lip reader to examine the Zapruder Film to nail down exactly what words Governor Connally is saying in the silent film.

Plus, the theory about Connally not being hit by a bullet until after the JFK head shot is defeated by the additional testimony of John Connally, who always said the third shot (the head shot to JFK) occurred AFTER Connally himself had already been hit. That fact is very plain whenever listening to Mr. Connally recount the events of 11/22/63.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7UZlseF-KY

ALSO SEE:

jfkassassinationforum.com/topic12298.msg383527

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/sbt-clips.html

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the gif in post 163.

His hand and cuff go across his body exactly the same relative distance the lapel does.

Perhaps he felt a chill out here in the open so the wind was indeed a source, just not the direct one.

Edited by Clive Largey

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Post-election phone call on November 7, 1962:

JOHN F. KENNEDY -- "I don't know why we do anything for Dallas."

JOHN CONNALLY -- "I'll tell you, they just murdered all of us."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This frame 270 shows Connally turning round to look at JFK. David, do you really think he did this nearly three seconds after being shot in the back?

What makes you think Connally should have instantly collapsed into a heap in the car after he was shot?

I know that there have been some conspiracists over the years who have advocated the notion that John Connally was not hit by ANY bullet until AFTER President Kennedy was shot in the head. But it's fairly obvious (to me) that when looking at the Zapruder Film in motion, Connally has been injured well prior to Z313. It's very clear (to me) that he is exhibiting a considerable amount of distress just after Z-Film frame 224 and in the frames that immediately follow....

Z-FilmClipSBTInMotion.gif

Plus, we know from Governor Connally's own testimony and his many public interviews after the assassination (three of which can be found below) that he didn't say "My God, they're going to kill us all" until AFTER he was hit by the bullet....

"I immediately, when I was hit, I said, "Oh, no, no, no." And then I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all"." -- John Connally; 1964 WC Testimony

"Then I said right after I was hit, I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all"." -- John Connally; 1978 HSCA Testimony

And we can easily see in the above Z-Film excerpt that Mr. Connally's mouth is moving and he is most certainly SAYING SOMETHING as he turns around in his seat.

Now, conspiracy theorists can always argue that we really can't KNOW for a fact WHAT the Texas Governor was uttering as we see his mouth moving in the above pre-Z313 frames, but that argument is not a very strong one in light of the testimony of both John and Nellie Connally, who testified that the ONLY words being uttered by the Governor immediately after he was shot were "Oh, no, no, no" and "My God, they're going to kill us all".

Perhaps what we need is a really good lip reader to examine the Zapruder Film to nail down exactly what words Governor Connally is saying in the silent film.

Plus, the theory about Connally not being hit by a bullet until after the JFK head shot is defeated by the additional testimony of John Connally, who always said the third shot (the head shot to JFK) occurred AFTER Connally himself had already been hit. That fact is very plain whenever listening to Mr. Connally recount the events of 11/22/63.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7UZlseF-KY

ALSO SEE:

jfkassassinationforum.com/topic12298.msg383527

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/sbt-clips.html

So you believe some of what Connally says but not all? 'Cos it doesn't suit your theory. Got it!

Edited by Ray Mitcham

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So you believe some of what Connally says but not all? 'Cos it doesn't suit your theory. Got it!

And by that, can I assume that you DO believe ALL of John Connally's testimony and statements? Including this statement?....

"All of the shots came from the same place--from back over my right shoulder. They weren't in front of us. They weren't at the side of us. There were no sounds like that emanating from those directions." -- John Connally; 1967; CBS-TV

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So you believe some of what Connally says but not all? 'Cos it doesn't suit your theory. Got it!

And by that, can I assume that you DO believe ALL of John Connally's testimony and statements? Including this statement?....

"All of the shots came from the same place--from back over my right shoulder. They weren't in front of us. They weren't at the side of us. There were no sounds like that emanating from those directions." -- John Connally; 1967; CBS-TV

Nice dodge, Dave. So you agree that he was right when he said he wasn't hit by the first shot. He knew when he was shot, but, as far as where the shots came from, how would he know?

Edited by Ray Mitcham

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nice dodge, Dave. So you agree that he was right when he said he wasn't hit by the first shot. He knew when he was shot, but, as far as where the shots came from, how would he know?

Well....uh....let me think....

Maybe he could tell by the sound of the shots?

Could that possibly have been it?

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah...because no one else was fooled by the acoustic qualities of Dealy Plaza, why should Connally be any different?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mark Knight, of course, will just ignore the fact that John Connally's "ALL OF THE SHOTS CAME FROM BACK OVER MY RIGHT SHOULDER" testimony is buttressed by all of the physical evidence that was found in a building that was located BACK OVER CONNALLY'S RIGHT SHOULDER.

Funny coincidence there, huh?

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mark Knight, of course, will just ignore the fact that John Connally's "ALL OF THE SHOTS CAME FROM BACK OVER MY RIGHT SHOULDER" testimony is buttressed by all of the physical evidence that was found in a building that was located BACK OVER CONNALLY'S RIGHT SHOULDER.

Funny coincidence there, huh?

You just don't get it, do you, Dave. Connallly actually felt the shot hit him so he should know when it did. He heard the shots and thought they came from behind him. Vast difference but then you wouldn't understand that as it does't fit your scenario.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You just don't get it, do you, Dave[?] Connallly [sic] actually felt the shot hit him[,] so he should know when it did. He heard the shots and thought they came from behind him. Vast difference[,] but then you wouldn't understand that as it [doesn't] fit your scenario.

You must be joking this time, Ray. The things you mentioned above regarding Governor Connally fit the "Lone Assassin" and "SBT" scenarios beautifully. In fact, it's perfect.

Everything John Connally has said over the years regarding the things he had first-hand knowledge of has been perfectly consistent with the Single-Bullet Theory and the overall "Oswald Did All The Shooting From The Sixth Floor Of The Book Depository" scenario.

Connally was hit in the back by the shot that was directly IN-BETWEEN the two shots he heard coming from "back over my right shoulder".

Ergo, the shot he felt hit him (but did not hear) obviously ALSO had to have come from the same general direction as the two shots he did hear---i.e., from behind him.

There's nothing inconsistent or unbelievable about any of Connally's testimony whatsoever. And it fits the SBT to a tee.

As for JBC's belief that he and JFK were struck by different bullets --- that belief almost certainly stemmed in large part from his wife's belief that JFK reacted first and then JBC reacted after Kennedy.

But Nellie certainly wasn't aware of all of these ultra-fast reactions that took place an instant after Z224. No way she saw all this flinching and lapel movement and grimacing and arm raising and tie displacement. What Nellie saw, instead, were her husband's SECONDARY and VOLUNTARY reactions, which began just a short time later. And in her mind, she thought the reactions of the two victims were separated by a lengthier period of time than they really were. And who could blame her? I think any of us probably would have thought the same thing Nellie thought, given the circumstances.

But if I had a chance to show the late Mrs. Connally and the late Governor Connally the in-motion GIF clips presented below, I'm confident that I could make SBT believers out of both of them in less than 15 minutes....

110.+Z223-Z224+Toggling+Clip.gif

Z224-Z225-Zapruder-Film-Clip.gif

109Z225-Z226TogglingClip.gif

Z-FilmClipSBTInMotion3.gif

Z-FilmClipSBTInMotion2.gif

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BTW, it is illogical to jump on the concept of a 'lapel flip'. In fact there may well have been no 'lapel flip'. That was probably just a Posner invention, as part of his SB scenario in CC. There is a shadow coming through the side window of the limo. That's all...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BTW, it is illogical to jump on the concept of a 'lapel flip'. In fact there may well have been no 'lapel flip'. That was probably just a Posner invention, as part of his SB scenario in CC. There is a shadow coming through the side window of the limo. That's all...

I disagree, Pam. As do many others -----> jfk-archives/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-940.html

You really think this is merely a "shadow", Pam? ....

Z-FilmClipSBTInMotion3.gif

Plus, how does the "side window" play any part in this at all? We're not looking through that side window to see Connally's lapel. The lapel is to the left (east) of the window. What am I not understanding about your "side window" claim, Pam? Am I not understanding the angles that you think are involved here?

In addition, I could also make a pretty fair argument that, at least in part, Connally's necktie is bulging outward as a result of the lapel physically touching the tie and causing it to move too. It's hard to tell, but I think what I just said about the lapel hitting the tie could possibly have some merit.

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My comments in red.

You just don't get it, do you, Dave[?] Connallly [sic] actually felt the shot hit him[,] so he should know when it did. He heard the shots and thought they came from behind him. Vast difference[,] but then you wouldn't understand that as it [doesn't] fit your scenario.


You must be joking this time, Ray. The things you mentioned above regarding Governor Connally fit the "Lone Assassin" and "SBT" scenarios beautifully. In fact, it's perfect.

Everything John Connally has said over the years regarding the things he had first-hand knowledge of has been perfectly consistent with the Single-Bullet Theory and the overall "Oswald Did All The Shooting From The Sixth Floor Of The Book Depository" scenario.

Connally was hit in the back by the shot that was directly IN-BETWEEN the two shots he heard coming from "back over my right shoulder".

Ergo, the shot he felt hit him (but did not hear) obviously ALSO had to have come from the same general direction as the two shots he did hear---i.e., from behind him.

No " ergo" about it. It is your assumption.

There's nothing inconsistent or unbelievable about any of Connally's testimony whatsoever. And it fits the SBT to a tee.

As for JBC's belief that he and JFK were struck by different bullets --- that belief almost certainly stemmed in large part from his wife's belief that JFK reacted first and then JBC reacted after Kennedy.

"almost certainly stemmed in large part......" Again, totally your assumption.

But Nellie certainly wasn't aware of all of these ultra-fast reactions that took place an instant after Z224. No way she saw all this flinching and lapel movement and grimacing and arm raising and tie displacement. What Nellie saw, instead, were her husband's SECONDARY and VOLUNTARY reactions, which began just a short time later. And in her mind, she thought the reactions of the two victims were separated by a lengthier period of time than they really were. And who could blame her? I think any of us probably would have thought the same thing Nellie thought, given the circumstances.

"And in her mind......" Are you serious? How do you know what was in her mind? Did she tell you? Do you write crime fiction by any chance?

But if I had a chance to show the late Mrs. Connally and the late Governor Connally the in-motion GIF clips presented below, I'm confident that I could make SBT believers out of both of them in less than 15 minutes....

110.+Z223-Z224+Toggling+Clip.gif

Z224-Z225-Zapruder-Film-Clip.gif

109Z225-Z226TogglingClip.gif

Z-FilmClipSBTInMotion3.gif

Z-FilmClipSBTInMotion2.gif

Edited by Ray Mitcham

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ergo, the shot he felt hit him (but did not hear) obviously ALSO had to have come from the same general direction as the two shots he did hear---i.e., from behind him.

No "ergo" about it. It is your assumption.

So, you think it's more reasonable to believe that the shots that Connally said he heard coming FROM BEHIND really came from the FRONT (or at least one of those shots anyway), even though we KNOW that at least one of the shots that was fired that day definitely DID come from behind Connally (based on the fact Connally was physically hit by that bullet IN THE BACK, which means it HAD to have come "from behind")?

Is that about the size of your argument, Ray?

If so, you need to re-think a few things. Because that theory is really bizarre and unreasonable (from virtually every perspective).

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now