Oswald's Coke

[Ken Davies]

I agree Robert. David VP has nothing but non sequitors and circular arguments. He also seems to delight in calling people conspiracy theorists. I don't like labels, or LIBELS. The man cannot respond to the questions posed on this thread, without insult.

That speaks volumes.

[David Von Pein]

David VP has nothing but non sequitors and circular arguments.

For example....?

Is believing the evidence to be authentic in the JFK and Tippit murder cases really something I should be ashamed of?

And let's face facts, Ken -- if the evidence is authentic, then Oswald's guilty.

Edited September 28, 2013 by David Von Pein

[William Kelly]

You need to grow a thicker skin, I'll tell you that. And turning on the "ALL CAPS" key certainly doesn't help your weak arguments at all either, Bill. (Am I allowed to complain about Bill SCREAMING AT ME through this tidal wave of needless capital letters?)

HEY DAVE, I'LL STOP SCREAMING AT YOU WHEN YOU STOP CALLING EVERYONE A CONSPIRACY THEORISTS.

AND I DON'T DISCARD THE EVIDENCE THAT IMPLICATES OSWALD, I JUST RECOGNIZE IT FOR WHAT IT IS, AND NONE OF IT PROVES HE WAS IN THE SIXTH FLOOR WINDOW WITH A RIFLE IN HIS HAND WHEN JFK CAME BY.

But it sure points in that direction, wouldn't you agree Bill?

And, of course, you also have to call Howard Brennan a xxxx too. Don't forget that.

I DON'T CALL HIM A xxxx, BUT I HAVE REVIEWED HIS CONTRIBUTION TO THE CASE BUT YOU HAVEN'T READ HOW HE STOOD IN FRONT OF THE TSBD FRONT DOOR FOR FIFTEEN MINUTES TELLING EVERYONE THAT THE SHOOTER WAS IN THE SIXTH FLOOR WINDOW BUT THEY DIDN'T SECURE THE BUILDING OR "DISCOVER" THE SNIPERS NEST FOR OVER A HALF HOUR. BRENNAN SAID HE WOULD RECOGNIZE THE SNIPER AGAIN IF HE SAW HIM, BUT DIDN'T RECOGNIZE OSWALD WHEN HE WALKED OUT THE FRONT DOOR IN FRONT OF BRENNAN?

AND THE COKE BOTTLE IS SIGNIFICANT AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN FOUND.

Why? And what possible evidentiary value would it have had even if it had been found? We know he DID have a Coke after the shooting. Reid verifies that fact.

Do you think maybe some "nitrates" could have been detected on the soda bottle, Bill?

IT WOULD HAVE TOLD US WHERE HE WAS WHEN HE DISPOSED OF IT.

BUT WHAT ABOUT BUELL WESLEY FRAZER - HE SAYS HE SAW OSWALD WALKING UP HOUSTON AT THAT SAME TIME - HAVING EXITED THE BACK LOADING DOCK, WITHOUT COKE IN HAND, AND WALK ACROSS HOUSTON AND THEN ELM?

Frazier came up with that story (AFAIK) for the first time in the 2002 interview with Gary Mack below:

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/event/178017

But what did Buell say in his affidavit on the very day of the assassination? Here's what he said:

"I did not see Lee anymore after about 11:00 AM today." -- B.W. Frazier; 11/22/63

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fnUXqaMoRpw/TvxpsigRUwI/AAAAAAAABzY/mDQwRYPV0lE/s1600-h/Buell-Wesley-Frazier-Affidavit.png

SO YOU ACCUSED FRAZER OF BRINGING THE RIFLE TO THE BUILDING EVEN THOUGH HE DENIES IT, AND YOU ACCUSE HIM OF LYING WHEN HE TELLS GARY MACK AND EVERYBODY ELSE AT THE MOST RECENT TV INTERVIEW?

NOW DAVE, DON'T TELL ME WHAT A CONSPIRACY THEORIST BELIEVES, BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO KNOW THAT, I WANT TO KNOW WHICH WAY OSWALD LEFT THE BUILDING.

Well, we've got Robert MacNeil and/or Pierce Allman to possibly give us a clue on that, Bill. One of those two men (and possibly even both of them) probably ran into Oswald right after the shooting. And I believe I'm correct in saying that both of those men (MacNeil & Allman) were near the front entrance of the Depository when the alleged encounter(s) with Oswald took place.

OKAY, BUT HOW COME AFTER ALL THE ATTENTION IS CALLED TO THE TSBD AND THE CAMERAS ARE FOCUSED ON IT, WE DON'T HAVE ONE THAT SHOWS OSWALD LEAVING? AND HOW COME AFTER CALMLY DIRECTING THE REPORTERS TO A PHONE, HE COULD'T GO OUT THE BACK DOOR AS FRAZER NOW CLAIMS?

BILL KELLY SAID:

>>> "JUST DON'T LUMP ME IN WITH EVERYONE ELSE YOU DON'T LIKE AND KEEP CALLING ME A CONSPIRACY THEORIST BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE A THEORY TO PROMOTE." <<<

You're promoting the unreasonable theory that Oswald didn't even fire a single shot at President Kennedy. And therefore that makes you one of the "Anybody But Oswald" conspiracy theorists I often refer to in my Internet posts. Based on your posts, you are indeed a member of that strange club. Why not face it? That's where the "guys like you" comes from.

AS I SAID, THE SIXTH FLOOR SHOOTER COULD STILL BE A LONE NUTTER, BUT IT WASN'T OSWALD, SO WHAT CONSPIRACY THEORY AM I PROMOTING?

REPRISE:

BILL KELLY SAID:

>>> "I DON'T HAVE A THEORY TO PROMOTE." <<<

Yeah, right Bill. That must be why you said this just two hours ago:

"I don't know who the Sixth Floor Sniper was but I suspect he too was an employee of the TSBD or a cop and knew that there was no hurry to leave the scene, as he wouldn't be considered a suspect since Ozzie the Rabbit had been set loose and everyone would follow him." -- William Kelly; 9/27/13

If the above isn't a "theory to promote", then what is it?

NO DAVE, I DON'T KNOW WHO KILLED KENNEDY OR PROMOTE THE IDEA THAT ANYONE DID, I KEEP AN OPEN MIND AND FOLLOW THE LEADS. AND IN FACT, THE SIXTH FLOOR SNIPER, WHOEVER HE IS, COULD STILL BE A LONE NUTTER LIKE YOU WANT.

[Ken Davies]

Name calling, shame, your choice, your game.

The truth will out.

[Ken Davies]

David VP, what evidence? There was no trial, there was no cross examination of WC "witnesses", there was no representation for Oswald. I have been sifting through the mountains of written material since 1964. Based on all that I Have read, seen, and heard at conferences, etc., and based upon 34 years of legal practice, I don't believe that there was enough "evidence" to convict Oswald of anything. If you want to prove with "evidence" anything in this case, then the onus is on you.

The onus is not on anyone to accept the work of the WC.

If you want to rely on US government conclusions, then the last one by the HSCA was that there was more than one shooter.

[David Von Pein]

SO YOU ACCUSED FRAZIER OF BRINGING THE RIFLE TO THE BUILDING EVEN THOUGH HE DENIES IT, AND YOU ACCUSE HIM OF LYING WHEN HE TELLS GARY MACK AND EVERYBODY ELSE AT THE MOST RECENT TV INTERVIEW?

Here again, Bill, you're using the word "accused" in a manner that doesn't apply at all. The rifle was most certainly in Wes Frazier's back seat on 11/22/63. It's the only explanation that fits the sum total of the evidence--and it perfectly explains Oswald's double "curtain rod" lie.

I'd like for some conspiracist to explain what Oswald had in that 38-inch paper bag found right there in the Sniper's Nest (with Oswald's prints on the bag--so we KNOW he handled it) if it wasn't the rifle in that bag that day? We know it wasn't curtain rods. This, again, is extremely easy to figure out. Why do CTers deny the obvious regarding that paper bag too? Just why?

(And as a reminder -- Bob Studebaker, L.D. Montgomery, and J.C. Day all testified they saw that empty paper bag lying in the Sniper's Nest, on the floor, before Day picked it up. So the "planting" idea is not going to fly.)

As for Frazier's newer tale about seeing Oswald coming down Houston Street -- I, for one, don't believe that part of Buell's story. But even if it is true--so what? It doesn't affect anything relating to the evidence and Oswald's guilt.

But even you, Bill, surely recognize the contradiction in Frazier's story. I already posted the relevant quote from his Nov. 22 affidavit. Which should we believe--his 1963 story or his 2002/2013 story?

HOW COME AFTER ALL THE ATTENTION IS CALLED TO THE TSBD AND THE CAMERAS ARE FOCUSED ON IT, WE DON'T HAVE [A PICTURE OR FILM] THAT SHOWS OSWALD LEAVING?

Beats me. But, as I said already, there's no picture (AFAIK) of MacNeil or Allman in front of the TSBD either. So, why not? You're picking and choosing.

AND HOW COME AFTER CALMLY DIRECTING THE REPORTERS TO A PHONE, HE COULD'T GO OUT THE BACK DOOR AS FRAZIER NOW CLAIMS?

Huh?

The reporters saw Oswald in FRONT of the building. You think Oswald, who was already outside in front of the building, would then have wanted to go back inside the building and then come right back out again via the back door? That's not very logical, Bill.

NO DAVE, I DON'T KNOW WHO KILLED KENNEDY OR PROMOTE THE IDEA THAT ANYONE DID, I KEEP AN OPEN MIND AND FOLLOW THE LEADS. AND IN FACT, THE SIXTH FLOOR SNIPER, WHOEVER HE IS, COULD STILL BE A LONE NUTTER LIKE YOU WANT.

So you think it could be a lone assassin (but not Oswald), even though all the evidence leads back to Oswald's rifle, Oswald's bullets, Oswald's shells, Oswald's prints, and even an identification of Oswald by a witness?

Come on Bill. Why are you denying the obvious?

And you do realize, do you not, that virtually all of the Dallas detectives who worked on the case have had no hesitation in expressing their beliefs that Oswald was guilty--and that he acted alone? Are all the DPD detectives part of some cover-up?

I'm not counting Jesse Curry in that group of DPD people, since he decided to turn into somewhat of a CTer in his later years; but even Curry is on record saying he had no doubt that Oswald "is the man who killed the President" (Curry; TV interview; 11/23/63).

And, of course, DPD Captain Fritz told the world on that same day (11/23/63) that the case against Oswald was "cinched". Was he out to frame an innocent man for two murders too (including the murder of one of his fellow DPD police officers)? That, IMO, is a notion that is just too crazy to even talk about.

I think it is important to take note of those statements made by the Dallas Police officers (and the Police Chief and Captain Fritz), because they were the ones interrogating Oswald and they were the ones who collected most of the evidence in the JFK and Tippit cases. So why shouldn't the opinions and statements made by the DPD people be some of the most important (and relevant) in the whole case? IMO, they are some of the most important statements and opinions--since those people were closer to Lee Harvey Oswald (and the evidence) than any other people alive when the assassination occurred in November of 1963.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KhoxU7EOQM&list=PL0O5WNzrZqIPQLpS3HuL0xa35eRABBQFB&index=7

Edited September 28, 2013 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

David VP, what evidence?

Oh, I don't know Ken -- maybe that pile of stuff collected from the TSBD and that other pile of shells (and many witnesses) collected from the area of Tenth Street & Patton Avenue. Plus that revolver that was wrested out of Oswald's own hands in the theater. (You know, the gun that killed J.D. Tippit.)

So we're only talking about ALL the bullets, ALL SEVEN bullet shells (covering both murders), BOTH guns (which were both Oswald's), the fingerprints, the fibers, the paper bag, and Oswald's own highly incriminating actions and provable lies. (Not to mention the dozen or so witnesses who fingered Oswald near 10th & Patton.)

Doesn't ANY of that stuff qualify as "evidence" in your world, Ken? If not, why not?

There was no trial, there was no cross examination of WC "witnesses", there was no representation for Oswald. I have been sifting through the mountains of written material since 1964. Based on all that I Have read, seen, and heard at conferences, etc., and based upon 34 years of legal practice, I don't believe that there was enough "evidence" to convict Oswald of anything. If you want to prove with "evidence" anything in this case, then the onus is on you. The onus is not on anyone to accept the work of the WC.

The Warren Commission isn't even needed to solve this case and prove that Oswald was a double-murderer. The DPD already proved that (double) fact by the end of the second day (11/23/63).

The Warren Commission didn't collect ANY of the evidence that hangs Oswald for both the Kennedy and Tippit killings. The Dallas Police collected virtually all of it. The WC merely evaluated that evidence after Jack Ruby intervened.

Tell me this, Ken -- If there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE against Oswald (as you seem to be suggesting very strongly), then what made the DPD decide to charge Lee Oswald with two murders before midnight on November 22, 1963?

Do people usually get officially charged with TWO murders by the police department if there is absolutely no evidence against them whatsoever?

If you want to rely on US government conclusions, then the last one by the HSCA was that there was more than one shooter.

Based on a "4th Shot" Dictabelt conclusion that has been totally shredded of all value. Naturally, most CTers totally ignore the many many holes in the HSCA's acoustics theory.

Show me a conspiracist who will stop promoting an already-debunked theory about the assassination of John F. Kennedy, and I'll show you a miracle for the ages.

DVP's JFK Archives / The Conspiracy Myths Continue

DVP's JFK Archives / Debunking The Acoustics Evidence

Quoting-Common-Sense.blogspot.com

Edited September 28, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

Dave!! You're still here! LOL don't you have anything better to do on a Friday night?

Do you leave your computer long enough to empty your bowels and bladder or have you got something else rigged up for that, just so you don't miss some evil CT trying to post something malicious?

[David Von Pein]

Dave!! You're still here! LOL don't you have anything better to do on a Friday night?

Orders from my Langley bosses, Robert. I've got no choice. Earl Warren chained me to my desk in September 1964 and I haven't had a free day since. Nobody can find the key to the damn leg irons either.

Edited September 28, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

Dave!! You're still here! LOL don't you have anything better to do on a Friday night?

Orders from my Langley bosses, Robert. I've got no choice. Earl Warren chained me to my desk in September 1964 and I haven't had a free day since. Nobody can find the key to the damn leg irons either.

I don't believe a word of it, Dave. I know guys like you, though. Still living in their mother's basement and spend so much time on the computer, they haven't seen the light of day in years.

Pathetic, actually.

[David Von Pein]

My house doesn't have a basement, Bob. So, looks like you've struck out again.

Edited September 28, 2013 by David Von Pein

[William Kelly]

SO YOU ACCUSED FRAZIER OF BRINGING THE RIFLE TO THE BUILDING EVEN THOUGH HE DENIES IT, AND YOU ACCUSE HIM OF LYING WHEN HE TELLS GARY MACK AND EVERYBODY ELSE AT THE MOST RECENT TV INTERVIEW?

Here again, Bill, you're using the word "accused" in a manner that doesn't apply at all. The rifle was most certainly in Wes Frazier's back seat on 11/22/63. It's the only explanation that fits the sum total of the evidence--and it perfectly explains Oswald's double "curtain rod" lie.

I'd like for some conspiracist to explain what Oswald had in that 38-inch paper bag found right there in the Sniper's Nest (with Oswald's prints on the bag--so we KNOW he handled it) if it wasn't the rifle in that bag that day? We know it wasn't curtain rods. This, again, is extremely easy to figure out. Why do CTers deny the obvious regarding that paper bag too? Just why?

IT ISN'T CTS WHO CLAIM OSWALD DIDN'T BRING THE RIFLE TO THE TSBD IN THE BACK OF FRAZER'S CAR - IT'S FRAZER HIMSELF AND HIS SISTER WHO MAKE THAT CLAIM. PLEASE CHECK THE SIXTH FLOOR/CBS INTERVIEW WITH FRAZER ON YOUTUBE.

(And as a reminder -- Bob Studebaker, L.D. Montgomery, and J.C. Day all testified they saw that empty paper bag lying in the Sniper's Nest, on the floor, before Day picked it up. So the "planting" idea is not going to fly.)

HOW COME THERE'S NOT PHOTO OF IT ON THE FLOOR AGAIN? AND WHEN PRESENTED THE BAG FOUND IN THE SNIPER'S NEST FRAZER SAID IT WASN'T THE ONE OSWALD HAD IN THE BACK SEAT OF HIS CAR. WHAT'S GOING ON HERE?

As for Frazier's newer tale about seeing Oswald coming down Houston Street -- I, for one, don't believe that part of Buell's story. But even if it is true--so what? It doesn't affect anything relating to the evidence and Oswald's guilt.

But even you, Bill, surely recognize the contradiction in Frazier's story. I already posted the relevant quote from his Nov. 22 affidavit. Which should we believe--his 1963 story or his 2002/2013 story?

HOW COME AFTER ALL THE ATTENTION IS CALLED TO THE TSBD AND THE CAMERAS ARE FOCUSED ON IT, WE DON'T HAVE [A PICTURE OR FILM] THAT SHOWS OSWALD LEAVING?

Beats me. But, as I said already, there's no picture (AFAIK) of MacNeil or Allman in front of the TSBD either. So, why not? You're picking and choosing.

AND HOW COME AFTER CALMLY DIRECTING THE REPORTERS TO A PHONE, HE COULD'T GO OUT THE BACK DOOR AS FRAZIER NOW CLAIMS?

Huh?

The reporters saw Oswald in FRONT of the building. You think Oswald, who was already outside in front of the building, would then have wanted to go back inside the building and then come right back out again via the back door? That's not very logical, Bill.

NO DAVE, I DON'T KNOW WHO KILLED KENNEDY OR PROMOTE THE IDEA THAT ANYONE DID, I KEEP AN OPEN MIND AND FOLLOW THE LEADS. AND IN FACT, THE SIXTH FLOOR SNIPER, WHOEVER HE IS, COULD STILL BE A LONE NUTTER LIKE YOU WANT.

So you think it could be a lone assassin (but not Oswald), even though all the evidence leads back to Oswald's rifle, Oswald's bullets, Oswald's shells, Oswald's prints, and even an identification of Oswald by a witness?

Come on Bill. Why are you denying the obvious?

WHAT'S OBVIOUS IS THAT NO ONE - IN CHIEF CURRY'S WORDS - PUT OSWALD IN THE WINDOW WITH THE GUN IN HIS HANDS

And you do realize, do you not, that virtually all of the Dallas detectives who worked on the case have had no hesitation in expressing their beliefs that Oswald was guilty--and that he acted alone? Are all the DPD detectives part of so......

I'm not counting Jesse Curry in that group of DPD people, since he decided to turn into somewhat of a CTer in his later years; but even Curry is on record saying he had no doubt that Oswald "is the man who killed the President" (Curry; TV interview; 11/23/63).

And, of course, DPD Captain Fritz told the world on that same day (11/23/63) that the case against Oswald was "cinched". Was he out to frame an innocent man for two murders too (including the murder of one of his fellow DPD police officers)? That, IMO, is a notion that is just too crazy to even talk about.

FRITZ ALSO SAID OSWALD WAS NOT CRAZY AND THOSE WHO INTERROGATED HIM SAID THEY BELIEVED HE WAS COACHED AND TRAINED IN COUNTER-INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES - NOW WHO WOULD TRAIN HIM IN THAT?

I think it is important to take note of those statements made by the Dallas Police officers (and the Police Chief and Captain Fritz), because they were the ones interrogating Oswald and they were the ones who collected most of the evidence in the JFK and Tippit cases. So why shouldn't the opinions and statements made by the DPD people be some of the most important (and relevant) in the whole case? IMO, they are some of the most important statements and opinions--since those people were closer to Lee Harvey Oswald (and the evidence) than any other people alive when the assassination occurred in November of 1963.

I AGREE AND WILL SOON START A THREAD ON OSWALD'S INTERROGATIONS - SO MAYBE WE CAN COME TO SOME AGREEMENT ON WHAT HE SAID

AS FOR YOUR LITANY OF COPS - CONSIDER THAT BENTLEY - WHO ARRESTED OSWALD AT THE THEATER - WAS THE RECIPIENT OF THE LETTER FROM THE ONI OFFICER WHO INVESTIGATED OSWALD IN CALIFORNIA INFORMING BENTLEY THAT "ONI HAD AN EXTENSIVE FILE ON OSWALD." WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT FILE?

AND THE COP WHO WAS HANDCUFFED TO OSWALD - HE LATER ACCIDENTLY SHOT A RESEARCHER IN HIS HOME WHILE BEING INTERVIEWED BY THE SIXTH FLOOR.

AND WHO WAS THE DETECTIVE IN CHARGE OF JUVENILE? WHOSE SON CAME TO WORK WITH HIM THAT DAY AND BROUGHT ALONG A PAL WHO OVERHEARD THE COPS IN THE BATHROOM SAY THAT TIPPIT WAS KILLED BY ANOTHER COP? WHO WAS THAT DETECTIVE AGAIN?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KhoxU7EOQM&list=PL0O5WNzrZqIPQLpS3HuL0xa35eRABBQFB&index=7

[Robert Prudhomme]

So, Dave, enquiring minds want to know: How many hours a day are you at your computer, and when is the last time you went outside?

[David Von Pein]

You're one to talk, Bob. You've been here almost as much as I have the last few days. Which is quite evident by the way you've been following me around like a puppy dog.

Edited September 28, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

No you are wrong there, Dave. I'm an independent contractor, and that allows me to check in every few hours to see what is happening.

You, on the other hand, get here in the early morning and don't leave until WAY after midnight; probably only getting up to take a crap. It is 10:14 P.M. here on the West Coast, what is it in Indiana, 2:14 A.M.??

Get a life!