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#136 Kathleen Collins

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 09:08 AM

Karyn Kupcinet is another whose death has been linked to the Kennedy assassination. I am not convinced but it is an interesting story.

Irv Kupcinet was a well-known journalist and television talk show host. He knew Jack Ruby in Chicago in the 1940s. According to W. Penn Jones (Forgive My Grief, 1966) Kupcinet kept in contact with Ruby and discovered that he was involved in a plot to assassinate President John F. Kennedy. Jones argues that Kupcinet passed this information on to his daughter Karyn. In his book, Forgive My Grief, Jones reports that "a few days before the assassination, Karyn Kupcinet, 23, was trying to place a long distance telephone call from the Los Angeles area. According to reports, the long distance operator heard Miss Kupcinet scream into the telephone that President Kennedy was going to be killed."

Karyn Kupcinet's body was discovered on 30th November, 1963. Police estimated that she had been dead for two days. The New York Times reported that she had been strangled. Her actor boyfriend, Andrew Prine was the main suspect but he was never charged with the murder and the crime remains unsolved.

Some researchers have claimed that there was a strong link between the death of Kupcinet and the assassination of John F. Kennedy. It was argued that the conspirators were trying to frighten Kupcinet from telling what he knew. Irv Kupcinet rejected this idea. He wrote in the Chicago Sun-Times (9th November, 1992): "The NBC Today Show on Friday carried a list of people who died violently in 1963 shortly after the death of President John F. Kennedy and may have had some link to the assassination. The first name on the list was Karyn Kupcinet, my daughter. That is an atrocious outrage. She did die violently in a Hollywood murder case still unsolved. That same list was published in a book years ago with no justification or verification. The book left the impression that some on the list may have been killed to silence them because of knowledge of the assassination. Nothing could be further from the truth in my daughter's case."

http://www.spartacus...JFKkupcinet.htm

Karyn Kupcinet


If you would like to see Karyn Kupcinet, she's on youtube.



She is in the audience with Steve Allen. It's the Jerry Lewis Show Premiere Pt 2, 1963. She appears at 6:42 in the video. The whole video is about 11 minutes.


There is a scene with Karyn Kupcinet acting in Jerry Lewis' movie Ladies Man. Here's the link:

http://www.youtube.c...Ladies Man&aq=f

She came from Chicago and looks healthy in this movie. She was anorexic. Her death remains a mystery. Even Dr. Cyril Wecht can't call it. The girl had no luck.

You can see Karyn Kupcinet in the Ladies Man with Jerry Lewis, spring 1961, on my new blog.

whatpricefame.blogspot.com

Kathy C

Edited by Kathleen Collins, 24 November 2010 - 07:31 AM.


#137 Peter McGuire

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:35 PM

Gary Underhill was found dead on 8th May 1964. He had been shot in the head and it was officially ruled that he had committed suicide. However, in his book, Destiny Betrayed, James DiEugenio claimed that the bullet entered the right-handed Underhill's head behind the left ear.


Underhill allegedly said "that the Kennedy murder wasn't as cut and dried as it might appear."

There were too many murders or "suicides" surrounding this case.

Edited by Peter McGuire, 31 March 2011 - 08:36 PM.


#138 Guest_Tom Scully_*

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 07:36 AM

Kathy,

I will respond to your question posted on the 'Simulated Assassination' gone awry? thread, in this post, after the quote box.


http://www.maebrusse...s%20Pt%201.html

http://www.pittsburg...l/s_739551.html
http://www.ajweberma...2/nodulec29.htm
.....ALLEN DORFMAN
.... In 1979, Gerald Denono, a mafia hit man under federal protective custody, gave a diary to the FBI that he said he stole from Dr. Canale, a New Orleans physician linked to CARLOS MARCELLO. The entry dated January 5, 1973, read: "Fitz OK Al Dorfman chi ok.--Tony Pro Jersey ok ($500,---to C.C. = nix OK." This signified that a payment was made to NIXON through Charles Colson which had been okayed by Teamsters Allen Dorfman, Tony Provenzano and Frank Fitzsimmons. [NY Post 11.16.79] The name of Allen Dorfman surfaced in an off-shoot of the FBI's ABSCAM investigation. Allen Dorfman was involved in an attempt to bribe Senator Howard W. Cannon, (Dem.- Nevada) to sponsor favorable legislation. These charges were never proven because Allen Dorfman was gunned down gang-land style in Chicago.

After the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, the Warren Commission received several reports that indicated an on-going relationship between RUBY and the Dorfmans. Justice Department investigator Walter Sheridan received information that RUBY had recently received money from one of the Dorfmans. Assistant United States Attorney Robert D. Peloquin was assigned to investigate the matter. Robert D. Peloquin, who at the time was part of United States Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy's "Get Hoffa Squad," was called off the case by his boss, Herbert J. Miller. [FBI 44-24016-112,1247; 62-109060-1528] Herbert J. Miller informed Robert Peloquin that he had contacted the source of the information concerning RUBY and the Dorfmans, and the source had refused to substantiate the information. Herbert J. Miller ordered "no further inquiry in this matter" because "the story would give Hoffa an opportunity to criticize the Justice Department for trying to tie Hoffa in with President Kennedy's murder." J. Edgar Hoover agreed: "I do wish Justice Department would mind it's own business." [FBI DC-44-1639 BL-E-cover pg; FBI CG 44-645- DWS: pl6, cover page B]....



Tom Scully -- do you think Red Dorfman had Karyn Kupcinet killed to shock Chicago about learning too much about Ruby and his connections?

Kathy C


I would prefer to just post yes because Karyn's father, Irv's behavior after Karyn's death and for the rest of his life seems that of a prominent yet incurious newspaper gossip and society columnist behaving as if he was under control by intimidation or other coercive influence. Irv Kupcinet knew Ruby and worked closely with Jimmy Colitz, one of Ruby's oldest and closest Chicago friends.

I cannot understand how Dorfman or anyone who at the least, was plotting to dispatch Ruby to permanently silence Oswald, would not take care to avoid any knowledge of the plot to be learned by a newspaper gossip columnist.

Kupcinet and his wife had 20 years experience avoiding antagonizing the numerous mob associates they regularly came in contact with in the course of their strong and regular presence around Chicago mob hangouts.

By 28 November, Dorfman and the organization he presumably needed permission from to permanently silence Kupcinet, his wife, her brother, and Jimmy and Ira Colitz, et al, through the murder of Karyn, had to know that their man, Earl Warren was going to chair the commission investigating Oswald and Ruby, and I suspect the Chicago organization was optimistic that Albert Jenner would be placed in an influential position on Warren's investigative team.

The organization Dorfman was part of was organized nationally and whatever part Dorfman and his organization played in the two murders and in the cover up, the details of the plot have mostly remained secret for 47 years.

I can't imagine Dorfman taking a unilateral decision to order the murder of Karyn, and why would the organization he needed to obtain permission from, be inclined to grant it for such a risky, secondary murder? Ruby had been coerced into giving up his future and risking his life without any influence beyond assumed threats, the accused assassin of JFK was dead as planned, and Warren was in charge of the cover up.

History has unfolded since in ways that show how powerful, influential, and well organized the people Dorfman, his step son, Ruby, Albert Jenner, and I suspect, Obama today have to answer to. Dorfman had to fear and respect them too much to order the murder of Karyn on his own. IMO, the organization by late November, had the success influenced confidence not to risk approving Karyn's murder.

#139 Kathleen Collins

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 03:26 PM

Kathy,

I will respond to your question posted on the 'Simulated Assassination' gone awry? thread, in this post, after the quote box.



http://www.maebrusse...s%20Pt%201.html

http://www.pittsburg...l/s_739551.html
http://www.ajweberma...2/nodulec29.htm
.....ALLEN DORFMAN
.... In 1979, Gerald Denono, a mafia hit man under federal protective custody, gave a diary to the FBI that he said he stole from Dr. Canale, a New Orleans physician linked to CARLOS MARCELLO. The entry dated January 5, 1973, read: "Fitz OK Al Dorfman chi ok.--Tony Pro Jersey ok ($500,---to C.C. = nix OK." This signified that a payment was made to NIXON through Charles Colson which had been okayed by Teamsters Allen Dorfman, Tony Provenzano and Frank Fitzsimmons. [NY Post 11.16.79] The name of Allen Dorfman surfaced in an off-shoot of the FBI's ABSCAM investigation. Allen Dorfman was involved in an attempt to bribe Senator Howard W. Cannon, (Dem.- Nevada) to sponsor favorable legislation. These charges were never proven because Allen Dorfman was gunned down gang-land style in Chicago.

After the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, the Warren Commission received several reports that indicated an on-going relationship between RUBY and the Dorfmans. Justice Department investigator Walter Sheridan received information that RUBY had recently received money from one of the Dorfmans. Assistant United States Attorney Robert D. Peloquin was assigned to investigate the matter. Robert D. Peloquin, who at the time was part of United States Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy's "Get Hoffa Squad," was called off the case by his boss, Herbert J. Miller. [FBI 44-24016-112,1247; 62-109060-1528] Herbert J. Miller informed Robert Peloquin that he had contacted the source of the information concerning RUBY and the Dorfmans, and the source had refused to substantiate the information. Herbert J. Miller ordered "no further inquiry in this matter" because "the story would give Hoffa an opportunity to criticize the Justice Department for trying to tie Hoffa in with President Kennedy's murder." J. Edgar Hoover agreed: "I do wish Justice Department would mind it's own business." [FBI DC-44-1639 BL-E-cover pg; FBI CG 44-645- DWS: pl6, cover page B]....



Tom Scully -- do you think Red Dorfman had Karyn Kupcinet killed to shock Chicago about learning too much about Ruby and his connections?

Kathy C


I would prefer to just post yes because Karyn's father, Irv's behavior after Karyn's death and for the rest of his life seems that of a prominent yet incurious newspaper gossip and society columnist behaving as if he was under control by intimidation or other coercive influence. Irv Kupcinet knew Ruby and worked closely with Jimmy Colitz, one of Ruby's oldest and closest Chicago friends.

I cannot understand how Dorfman or anyone who at the least, was plotting to dispatch Ruby to permanently silence Oswald, would not take care to avoid any knowledge of the plot to be learned by a newspaper gossip columnist.

Kupcinet and his wife had 20 years experience avoiding antagonizing the numerous mob associates they regularly came in contact with in the course of their strong and regular presence around Chicago mob hangouts.

By 28 November, Dorfman and the organization he presumably needed permission from to permanently silence Kupcinet, his wife, her brother, and Jimmy and Ira Colitz, et al, through the murder of Karyn, had to know that their man, Earl Warren was going to chair the commission investigating Oswald and Ruby, and I suspect the Chicago organization was optimistic that Albert Jenner would be placed in an influential position on Warren's investigative team.

The organization Dorfman was part of was organized nationally and whatever part Dorfman and his organization played in the two murders and in the cover up, the details of the plot have mostly remained secret for 47 years.

I can't imagine Dorfman taking a unilateral decision to order the murder of Karyn, and why would the organization he needed to obtain permission from, be inclined to grant it for such a risky, secondary murder? Ruby had been coerced into giving up his future and risking his life without any influence beyond assumed threats, the accused assassin of JFK was dead as planned, and Warren was in charge of the cover up.

History has unfolded since in ways that show how powerful, influential, and well organized the people Dorfman, his step son, Ruby, Albert Jenner, and I suspect, Obama today have to answer to. Dorfman had to fear and respect them too much to order the murder of Karyn on his own. IMO, the organization by late November, had the success influenced confidence not to risk approving Karyn's murder.


Thank you, Tom. Honestly, the more I look at it the more her death seems like suicide. She was obsessed with her weight. I think, although slight in stature, she was big-boned like her father. When you have to have a lot of plastic surgery trying to be a TV actress, and take a lot of methamphetamine, I think that wears away self-confidence and sanity. Also, the man who lived beneath her, David Lange, may have killed her, then blacked out. He was a heavy drinker. He thought it was a bad dream possibly and then went up to her apartment the day after Thanksgiving to find out. She was dead. It wasn't a dream.

Kathy C

#140 Guest_Tom Scully_*

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 07:28 PM

On stage at the Monterey Pop Festival:



“They’re shooting this for television. I’m sure they’re going to edit this out. I want to say it anyway, even though they will edit it out. When President Kennedy was killed, he was not killed by one man. He was shot from a number of different directions, by different guns. The story has been suppressed, witnesses have been killed, and this is your country, ladies and gentlemen.”

- David Crosby Monterey Pop Festival 5/17/1967

#141 William Kelly

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 07:45 PM

On stage at the Monterey Pop Festival:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Bb4DpejUUA

"They're shooting this for television. I'm sure they're going to edit this out. I want to say it anyway, even though they will edit it out. When President Kennedy was killed, he was not killed by one man. He was shot from a number of different directions, by different guns. The story has been suppressed, witnesses have been killed, and this is your country, ladies and gentlemen."

- David Crosby Monterey Pop Festival 5/17/1967


Whose the guy who says "David was just trying to be hip"?

#142 Kathleen Collins

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 09:01 PM


On stage at the Monterey Pop Festival:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Bb4DpejUUA

"They're shooting this for television. I'm sure they're going to edit this out. I want to say it anyway, even though they will edit it out. When President Kennedy was killed, he was not killed by one man. He was shot from a number of different directions, by different guns. The story has been suppressed, witnesses have been killed, and this is your country, ladies and gentlemen."

- David Crosby Monterey Pop Festival 5/17/1967


Whose the guy who says "David was just trying to be hip"?

I think his name was Gene. When they did "Turn, Turn, Turn," he was the lead singer and he used to wear these little square glasses. I guess he didn't like anyone else being cool.

Kathy C

#143 Kathleen Collins

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 09:08 PM

Of course some people believe that the death of Karyn Kupcinet was related to the JFK case. I discovered this post on a conspiracy-related website called thecloakofdarkness.blogspot.com (it is not clear who is behind the blog or who posted this but there is now also a web-site dedicated to Kupcinet:

http://groups.yahoo....Karyn_Kupcinet/

The website states there is a book being written on her life, a collaboration between her niece Karu and a writer named Paul Fecteau. They have a website: www.research@paulfecteau.com

Re Mr. Fecteau:

http://www.washburn....u/biography.htm

John might want to ask him if he or Kari think her death was in fact related to the JFK case.

****************************************************************************


Karyn Kupcinet, Stage Name "Tammy Windsor"

Last night I was watching a Hawaiian Eye episode. I recognized Karyn Kupcinet and I thought she was not listed in the credits. I've had this episode for a few years. At the end, I noticed a number of credits. But why not her? I looked at the credits and found "The Clerk," which would describe the role Karyn had in this show. How I knew it was her was I'm looking at this girl and I start to see the mouth, the nose, the cheekbones of -- Irv Kupcinet! "The Clerk" was played by Tammy Windsor. Well this was a pseudonym I didn't know about. She is listed in IMDB and TV-Tome. But in most of the shows, I think she was known as Karyn Kupcinet. Not an easy name. There was a gossip columnist in Hollywood who kept begging her to change her name as people couldn't pronounce it. (Except in Chicago) People would pronounce the name as Ka-reen Kup-cin-ay. The name "Karyn" was another selection of hers. She was born as Roberta Lynn Kupcinet. They were having a hard time with her name. The parents were calling her Bobbe Lynn. Finally, Karyn was at some children's party and she came over to her parents and said, "This cookie is from your cookie." And so she was called Cookie. I don't know how old she was when her name first changed. I recall reading an old copy of Who's Who in the Midwest. Irv was listed, as was Essee, his wife, Jerry, his son and Cookie (deceased).

Biographers all thought she only appeared in one film, Jerry Lewis' The Ladies Man. I found out she appeared in the 1960 version of the film The Little Shop of Horrors. I think she plays "The Teenager," unless I'm thinking of one of her TV shows. Jack Nicholson is in the movie and I think it's a cult film. They're selling it on Amazon.com for $0.01 and shipping is $2.98. Just make sure which version you're getting. There was a Broadway version, etc.


I was wrong. Karyn's first appearance on Hawaiian Eye went uncredited. I looked at the cast and it said "Tammy Windsor" as the Clerk. The IMDb is wrong about this too.

She is not in Little Shop of Horrors.

Kari, Paul Fecteau and the Kupcinet family all believe David Lange, her downstairs neighbor, committed the act.

Paul Fecteau is a member here.

Kathy C

#144 Christopher Hall

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 11:35 PM



On stage at the Monterey Pop Festival:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Bb4DpejUUA

"They're shooting this for television. I'm sure they're going to edit this out. I want to say it anyway, even though they will edit it out. When President Kennedy was killed, he was not killed by one man. He was shot from a number of different directions, by different guns. The story has been suppressed, witnesses have been killed, and this is your country, ladies and gentlemen."

- David Crosby Monterey Pop Festival 5/17/1967


Whose the guy who says "David was just trying to be hip"?

I think his name was Gene. When they did "Turn, Turn, Turn," he was the lead singer and he used to wear these little square glasses. I guess he didn't like anyone else being cool.

Kathy C



Gene Clark is the person to whom you were referring.

He was the main songwriter for the Byrds, which was, of course, an country rock supergroup (and included bassist Chris Hillman (who is still at it and whom I still listen to quite a bit), Gram Parsons (for the Byrds' 1st record (I believe), the inimitable Roger McGuin (known for his mastery of the 6 string guitar) and drummer Michael Clarke).

I never knew that Crosby made these comments. It would be interesting to know the source of his belief. I was only 10 in 1967 and believed the ubiquitous SBT pap which existed at that time.

Perhaps Crosby was reading or listening to Mark Lane.

I saw Crosby a few years later with CSN & Y and and also with Graham Nash in Hollywood.

There were some epic performances turned in at the Monterey Pop Festival, with Hendrix's pouring lighter fluid on his guitar and torching it being the most memorable.

Janis Joplin also had a great performance at Monterey.

I live around 100 miles or so from Manchester, Tn, where Bonaroo takes place, but at my age the notion of hanging around a pasture in Tn in June for 2 - 3 days doesn't interest me. But the music sure does.

Edited by Christopher Hall, 21 July 2011 - 11:47 PM.


#145 William Kelly

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 01:45 AM




On stage at the Monterey Pop Festival:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Bb4DpejUUA

"They're shooting this for television. I'm sure they're going to edit this out. I want to say it anyway, even though they will edit it out. When President Kennedy was killed, he was not killed by one man. He was shot from a number of different directions, by different guns. The story has been suppressed, witnesses have been killed, and this is your country, ladies and gentlemen."

- David Crosby Monterey Pop Festival 5/17/1967


Whose the guy who says "David was just trying to be hip"?

I think his name was Gene. When they did "Turn, Turn, Turn," he was the lead singer and he used to wear these little square glasses. I guess he didn't like anyone else being cool.

Kathy C



Gene Clark is the person to whom you were referring.

He was the main songwriter for the Byrds, which was, of course, an country rock supergroup (and included bassist Chris Hillman (who is still at it and whom I still listen to quite a bit), Gram Parsons (for the Byrds' 1st record (I believe), the inimitable Roger McGuin (known for his mastery of the 6 string guitar) and drummer Michael Clarke).

I never knew that Crosby made these comments. It would be interesting to know the source of his belief. I was only 10 in 1967 and believed the ubiquitous SBT pap which existed at that time.

Perhaps Crosby was reading or listening to Mark Lane.

I saw Crosby a few years later with CSN & Y and and also with Graham Nash in Hollywood.

There were some epic performances turned in at the Monterey Pop Festival, with Hendrix's pouring lighter fluid on his guitar and torching it being the most memorable.

Janis Joplin also had a great performance at Monterey.

I live around 100 miles or so from Manchester, Tn, where Bonaroo takes place, but at my age the notion of hanging around a pasture in Tn in June for 2 - 3 days doesn't interest me. But the music sure does.




Thanks Chris,

I just wondered who would dismiss David Crosby's remarks, which have been repeated over the years, and worn into a solid belief that the official story of the assassination is wrong.

His long term endorsement of conspiracy and his long held belief that it is an important and significant issue transends Gene Clarks' off hand dismissal of his feelings as just "trying to be hip."

I guess he also thinks Hendrix was just trying to be hip too? The bootleg recordings of Hendrix's London pub sessions are what makes him legend, not just his official recordings.

Thanks for the background,

BK



#146 Christopher Hall

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 10:07 PM





On stage at the Monterey Pop Festival:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Bb4DpejUUA

"They're shooting this for television. I'm sure they're going to edit this out. I want to say it anyway, even though they will edit it out. When President Kennedy was killed, he was not killed by one man. He was shot from a number of different directions, by different guns. The story has been suppressed, witnesses have been killed, and this is your country, ladies and gentlemen."

- David Crosby Monterey Pop Festival 5/17/1967


Whose the guy who says "David was just trying to be hip"?

I think his name was Gene. When they did "Turn, Turn, Turn," he was the lead singer and he used to wear these little square glasses. I guess he didn't like anyone else being cool.

Kathy C



Gene Clark is the person to whom you were referring.

He was the main songwriter for the Byrds, which was, of course, an country rock supergroup (and included bassist Chris Hillman (who is still at it and whom I still listen to quite a bit), Gram Parsons (for the Byrds' 1st record (I believe), the inimitable Roger McGuin (known for his mastery of the 6 string guitar) and drummer Michael Clarke).

I never knew that Crosby made these comments. It would be interesting to know the source of his belief. I was only 10 in 1967 and believed the ubiquitous SBT pap which existed at that time.

Perhaps Crosby was reading or listening to Mark Lane.

I saw Crosby a few years later with CSN & Y and and also with Graham Nash in Hollywood.

There were some epic performances turned in at the Monterey Pop Festival, with Hendrix's pouring lighter fluid on his guitar and torching it being the most memorable.

Janis Joplin also had a great performance at Monterey.

I live around 100 miles or so from Manchester, Tn, where Bonaroo takes place, but at my age the notion of hanging around a pasture in Tn in June for 2 - 3 days doesn't interest me. But the music sure does.




Thanks Chris,

I just wondered who would dismiss David Crosby's remarks, which have been repeated over the years, and worn into a solid belief that the official story of the assassination is wrong.

His long term endorsement of conspiracy and his long held belief that it is an important and significant issue transends Gene Clarks' off hand dismissal of his feelings as just "trying to be hip."

I guess he also thinks Hendrix was just trying to be hip too? The bootleg recordings of Hendrix's London pub sessions are what makes him legend, not just his official recordings.

Thanks for the background,

BK



What struck me about Crosby's remarks was their timing (just 3 years post-assassination), which makes them rather prescient from my perspective. Particularly in view of the fact that I thought that Vietnam was all that anyone talked about at that time.

I wonder what Crosby thinks about the JFK assassination now.

I think that Clark's dismissiveness is a reflection on his worldview, which his comment would lead us to believe to be rather shallow.

Being hip was a commonplace objective at that time.

From a music history standpoint, I feel privileged to have been able to experience the genisis and development of rock and its many sub-genres. There were some immensely talented musicians at that time. We can only wonder what a good many of those musicians who didn't make it (e.g. The 27 Club, which included, among others, Hendrix, Joplin, Morrison, Gram Parsons) would have done if they had lived longer.

A lot of music from back then reflected the influence of blues and, particularly in the case of the Byrds, CSN & Y and the Fling Burrito Brothers, country.

I forgot about Jimi's sojourn to London.

I think he went out to San Francisco when he returned (which may have been where he was from - I forget).

A little known fact about Jimi is that one of his earliest gigs was with the Isley Brothers - not exactly the context in which we normally think of Jimi.

And the fact that when he played at Woodstock only around 10% of the 400,000 attendees were still around (perhaps BK, I can only imagine).

#147 Lee Farley

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 10:30 PM

I forgot about Jimi's sojourn to London.


The Handel Museum opened up Jimi's former London home for a short exhibition last year. I visited when it opened. It was a nice couple of hours. The Handel Museum ran the exhibition because Jimi lived in a property next door to where composer George Handel lived in the 18th Century.

http://news.bbc.co.u...don/8686207.stm

#148 Guest_Tom Scully_*

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Posted 23 July 2011 - 12:47 AM

Apparently, Lou Adler's praise of Crosby's Monterey, CT statements, was not solely contradicted by Gene Clark.:

Consider that Gene Clark had already departed from the Byrds and was not performing with Crosby when he reacted to Crosby's CT statements. There are references posted on forums describing Roger McGuinn's reaction to Crosby's comments, like this one.: (post #3)

http://www.stevehoff...ad.php?t=215251

"...I think the look McGuinn gave Crosby during the latter's Kennedy assassination lecture from the stage at Monterey in Monterey Pop said it all..."

Gene Clark:


"David was just trying to be hip, c'mon give me a break, we all knew the same.... we all knew that. He didn't know any more than anyone else. He was just being Mr. Cool up there, I resented it, frankly."

Roger McGuinn claimed he wrote "He was a friend of mine," on the night of 22 November.

David Crosby was said to have upset the other members of the group because of his growing dominance of the group generally, as well as his surprise, unilateral introduction of McGuinn's song at Monterey.:


http://www.turnmeondeadman.com/index.php?option=com_jfk&task=ViewJFKTrack&jfkID=20&Itemid=88

....The Byrds perform the song as a solemn elegy to President John F. Kennedy, with McGuinn lamenting the passing of a "leader of a nation for such a precious time". The lyrics seem to suggest that the Byrds accept the ruling of the Warren Commission that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone in the assassination of JFK. After singing, "His killing had no purpose, no reason or rhyme" they describe the shooting, "From a sixth floor window a gunman shot him down." When the Byrds performed this song at the Monterey International Pop Festival in 1967, however, David Crosby told the audience that he did not accept this explanation of the Kennedy assassination. Prefacing his remarks with "I'm sure that they'll edit this out," he told the audience, "When President Kennedy was killed, he was not killed by one man. He was shot from a number of different directions by different guns. The story has been suppressed, witnesses have been killed, and this is your country, ladies and gentlemen." The rest of the Byrds were reportedly upset with Crosby because his remarks resulted in a lack of television coverage of the Byrds performance, not to mention that Crosby performed the following day with Buffalo Springfield without informing any the members of the Byrds....

http://www.snopes.co...idden/horse.asp


I posted the video of Crosby at Monterey because I was impressed that Crosby was documented as being on the cutting edge of JFK Assassination opinion, and publicly expressing it, at that time. The other members of the Byrds seemed to be practicing the same self-censorship that is so common among the career minded stenographers in the contemporary press.

Edited by Tom Scully, 23 July 2011 - 01:05 AM.


#149 Kathleen Collins

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 01:48 AM

Kathy,

I will respond to your question posted on the 'Simulated Assassination' gone awry? thread, in this post, after the quote box.



http://www.maebrusse...s%20Pt%201.html

http://www.pittsburg...l/s_739551.html
http://www.ajweberma...2/nodulec29.htm
.....ALLEN DORFMAN
.... In 1979, Gerald Denono, a mafia hit man under federal protective custody, gave a diary to the FBI that he said he stole from Dr. Canale, a New Orleans physician linked to CARLOS MARCELLO. The entry dated January 5, 1973, read: "Fitz OK Al Dorfman chi ok.--Tony Pro Jersey ok ($500,---to C.C. = nix OK." This signified that a payment was made to NIXON through Charles Colson which had been okayed by Teamsters Allen Dorfman, Tony Provenzano and Frank Fitzsimmons. [NY Post 11.16.79] The name of Allen Dorfman surfaced in an off-shoot of the FBI's ABSCAM investigation. Allen Dorfman was involved in an attempt to bribe Senator Howard W. Cannon, (Dem.- Nevada) to sponsor favorable legislation. These charges were never proven because Allen Dorfman was gunned down gang-land style in Chicago.

After the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, the Warren Commission received several reports that indicated an on-going relationship between RUBY and the Dorfmans. Justice Department investigator Walter Sheridan received information that RUBY had recently received money from one of the Dorfmans. Assistant United States Attorney Robert D. Peloquin was assigned to investigate the matter. Robert D. Peloquin, who at the time was part of United States Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy's "Get Hoffa Squad," was called off the case by his boss, Herbert J. Miller. [FBI 44-24016-112,1247; 62-109060-1528] Herbert J. Miller informed Robert Peloquin that he had contacted the source of the information concerning RUBY and the Dorfmans, and the source had refused to substantiate the information. Herbert J. Miller ordered "no further inquiry in this matter" because "the story would give Hoffa an opportunity to criticize the Justice Department for trying to tie Hoffa in with President Kennedy's murder." J. Edgar Hoover agreed: "I do wish Justice Department would mind it's own business." [FBI DC-44-1639 BL-E-cover pg; FBI CG 44-645- DWS: pl6, cover page B]....



Tom Scully -- do you think Red Dorfman had Karyn Kupcinet killed to shock Chicago about learning too much about Ruby and his connections?

Kathy C


I would prefer to just post yes because Karyn's father, Irv's behavior after Karyn's death and for the rest of his life seems that of a prominent yet incurious newspaper gossip and society columnist behaving as if he was under control by intimidation or other coercive influence. Irv Kupcinet knew Ruby and worked closely with Jimmy Colitz, one of Ruby's oldest and closest Chicago friends.

I cannot understand how Dorfman or anyone who at the least, was plotting to dispatch Ruby to permanently silence Oswald, would not take care to avoid any knowledge of the plot to be learned by a newspaper gossip columnist.

Kupcinet and his wife had 20 years experience avoiding antagonizing the numerous mob associates they regularly came in contact with in the course of their strong and regular presence around Chicago mob hangouts.

By 28 November, Dorfman and the organization he presumably needed permission from to permanently silence Kupcinet, his wife, her brother, and Jimmy and Ira Colitz, et al, through the murder of Karyn, had to know that their man, Earl Warren was going to chair the commission investigating Oswald and Ruby, and I suspect the Chicago organization was optimistic that Albert Jenner would be placed in an influential position on Warren's investigative team.

The organization Dorfman was part of was organized nationally and whatever part Dorfman and his organization played in the two murders and in the cover up, the details of the plot have mostly remained secret for 47 years.

I can't imagine Dorfman taking a unilateral decision to order the murder of Karyn, and why would the organization he needed to obtain permission from, be inclined to grant it for such a risky, secondary murder? Ruby had been coerced into giving up his future and risking his life without any influence beyond assumed threats, the accused assassin of JFK was dead as planned, and Warren was in charge of the cover up.

History has unfolded since in ways that show how powerful, influential, and well organized the people Dorfman, his step son, Ruby, Albert Jenner, and I suspect, Obama today have to answer to. Dorfman had to fear and respect them too much to order the murder of Karyn on his own. IMO, the organization by late November, had the success influenced confidence not to risk approving Karyn's murder.


I've read the above paragraph about Ruby and the Dorfmans. It feels very ominous. I'm believing again that Dorfman spoke to Kup on the phone about Ruby, and Karyn was in Palm Springs too. And an idea came to him to kill Karyn to shock Chicago and keep Kupcinet away from any investigation of Ruby. Irv was the most popular man in Chicago, yet the mob may have killed his daughter. His best friend was Sidney Korshack, mafia lawyer, a man investigated so many times and never anything found that he did that was illegal. If the hit came from Chicago, I'm sure he would know. He met Irv at the airport and later identified the remains of Irv's daughter.

Then Frank Sinatra Jr was kidnapped. Who worked harder to get Kennedy in as President than Sinatra? That was another smokescreen, a way to distract the public. And then the Beatles came over to America. (I don't think the British were behind any of it. Lyndon LaRouche did.)

They have a huge bronze statue of Kup now, welcoming everyone to Chicago.

Kathy C

#150 John Simkin

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 07:58 PM

Walter Krivitsky worked for the KGB. He defected to the United States in 1937. Krivitsky once told Whittaker Chambers: "Any fool can commit a murder, but it takes an artist to commit a good natural death."

Krivitsky was found dead in the Bellevue Hotel in Washington on 10th February, 1941. At first it was claimed that Krivitsky had committed suicide. However, others claimed his hiding place had been disclosed by a Soviet mole working for MI5 and had been murdered by Soviet agents. Whittaker Chambers definitely believed that he had been killed by the KGB: "He had left a letter in which he gave his wife and children the unlikely advice that the Soviet Government and people were their best friends. Previously he had warned them that, if he were found dead, never under any circumstances to believe that he had committed suicide."

http://www.spartacus...SSkrivitsky.htm




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