Curtis LeMay and John F. Kennedy

[Tim Gratz]

Stephen, a few minor things:

1) There is no "red alert" on Defcon, to the best of my knowledge. There are just different, higher levels of Defcom depending on the circumstances. They were not alwways elevated and it would not be LeMay who would make the decision whether or not to elevate them.

2) LeMay never advocated dumping our entire nuclear stockpile on Cuba. Not only would that be overkill, it would also leave us defenseless against the Soviets.

3) The Soviets probably made the deal with JFK during the CMC because they were afraid of the American military, including LeMay. JFK deserves great credit for his handling of the crisis but I suspect he saw some value in having the Soviets understand the military pressures on him. In "Thirteen Days" as RFK is negotiating the final deal, the Russian comments to him that he and JFK are the "good guys". The military provided the "backbone" needed to make JFK's implicit threat of military action plausible.

[Ron Ecker]

JFK aide (and suspect in any AF1 body snatching) Godfrey McHugh was an Air Force brigadier general.

He made up a ridiculous story about having to slap a terrified LBJ to bring him back to his senses on AF1.

His official online Air Force biography makes no mention of his service as military aide to JFK:

http://www.af.mil/bios/bio.asp?bioID=6402

[Charles Drago]

Few discussions of LeMay within the contexts of Northwoods and Dallas are fulfilling absent consideration of General Thomas Sarsfield "In the Clear" Power, who succeeded LeMay as CIC of the Strategic Air Command in 1957 and held that office through November, 1964.

When asked, in Moscow, why he declined to pursue the top spot at MI6, Kim Philby responded, in essence, that the number two position afforded the same perspective enjoyed at number one, with the added benefit of operating in the top man's shadow.

Bill Hayden would take this point.

And then there's the matter of Colonel Howard Burris.

I am most assuredly not arguing that LeMay should get a pass. I am suggesting, however, that we endeavor to avoid being blinded by the glare off his brass and to look into what may be obscured by his shadow.

Charles

[William Kelly]

Just saw "Thirteen Days" on TNT. A great movie. It certainly showed the clash between the Kennedys and the military and showed JFK in what many considered his noblest hour.

But for Myra to call Gen. LeMay a "prime suspect" in the assassination is pure hogwash. There is not one scintilla of evidence linking LeMay to the assassination. This reminds me of Robert Welch calling President Eisenhower a Communist. And another example of why VB can riducule the assassination research community.

[William Kelly]

Just saw "Thirteen Days" on TNT. A great movie. It certainly showed the clash between the Kennedys and the military and showed JFK in what many considered his noblest hour.

But for Myra to call Gen. LeMay a "prime suspect" in the assassination is pure hogwash. There is not one scintilla of evidence linking LeMay to the assassination. This reminds me of Robert Welch calling President Eisenhower a Communist. And another example of why VB can riducule the assassination research community.

Tim, "Thirteen Days" is a good movie, and a fitting Prequil to the assassination of JFK.

As for evidence of LeMay's involvement in latter, if the conspiracy was indeed a coup and not renegade elements, then all components of the NSC were either compromised or complicent.

BK

[Myra Bronstein]

The prime suspect in the JFK assassination is Gen. Curtis LeMay.

After all, he detested both JFK and RFK.

In fact, the Kennedys were trying to put him in jail and/or deport him on the very date that JFK was assassinated.

He had made threats against the life of JFK.

Jack Ruby had ties to the organization he headed.

While hospitalized and sedated in the 1980s, he made statements about killing kennedy when Kennedy got to Dallas.

At the time of the assassination, David Ferrie was working for him.

Oops, sorry, that description fits Carlos Marcello, not Curtis LeMay! As far as I know, LeMay had a distinguished and unblemished military record and no history of ever participating in any criminal enterprise. And unless I missed something he never expressed to anyone taking any violent action against the Kennedys. Nor did he have any connection with Jack Ruby.

Me thinkust the Tim doth protest to much.

LeMay was a cold war lunatic, during his time in the JCS, defcom was CONSTANTLY on red alert, he advocated dropping America's entire nuclear stockpile on the Soviet Union, and doing the same thing to Cuba, he was also one of the main supports/advocates of operation Nortwoods. He christened Kennedy a "no win chief" and an appeaser of Communism.

Does this mean he was instumental in the assassination, no, but neither does it earn him a get out of jail free card. I find it entirely reasonable that LeMays troubled relationship with his Chief is examined in light of his well documented enmity towards all things Kennedy.

I'll clarify.

LeMay is one of many prime suspects, listed them in post #5 of this thread:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=106828

[Charles Drago]

Myra,

You're right: LeMay is near the top of the facilitator/false sponsor tier.

I recently posted this on the "Curtis LeMay and John F. Kennedy" thread:

Few discussions of LeMay within the contexts of Northwoods and Dallas are fulfilling absent consideration of General Thomas Sarsfield "In the Clear" Power, who succeeded LeMay as CIC of the Strategic Air Command in 1957 and held that office through November, 1964.

When asked, in Moscow, why he declined to pursue the top spot at MI6, Kim Philby responded, in essence, that the number two position afforded the same perspective enjoyed at number one, with the added benefit of operating in the top man's shadow.

Bill Hayden would take this point.

And then there's the matter of Colonel Howard Burris.

I am most assuredly not arguing that LeMay should get a pass. I am suggesting, however, that we endeavor to avoid being blinded by the glare off his brass and to look into what may be obscured by his shadow.

Charles

[Norman T. Field]

According to Kruschev's (sp?) memoirs, the USSR backed down on the CMC cuz JFK agreed to remove our missles from Turkey, thus achieving the goal which caused missles to be placed in Cuba to begin with. NOT any Soviet fear of the US armed forces.

[William Kelly]

According to Kruschev's (sp?) memoirs, the USSR backed down on the CMC cuz JFK agreed to remove our missles from Turkey, thus achieving the goal which caused missles to be placed in Cuba to begin with. NOT any Soviet fear of the US armed forces.

Norman,

That's just Tim Gratz, not to be taken tooo seriously. He knows all about the missles in Turkey (and listening posts), but must play the fear factor as if the cold war is ongoing.

The Ruskie Generals had to save face too.

Per your interest in organized crime Chicago style, have you read Michael J. Cain's bio of bro Richard - the Life & Death of R C, Chicago Cop and Mafia Hitman"?

Also re: your interest in Hinkley, have you read the article Hinkley & Co. that I think is posted on this forum under appropriate caterogry?

Bill Kelly

[Kathleen Collins]

But for Myra to call Gen. LeMay a "prime suspect" in the assassination is pure hogwash. There is not one scintilla of evidence linking LeMay to the assassination. This reminds me of Robert Welch calling President Eisenhower a Communist. And another example of why VB can riducule the assassination research community.

Did anyone actually investigate LeMay regarding the Assassination of John Kennedy? He was top dog in the autopsy room that night and would not allow certain procedures. I was reading about LeMay last night. What a horrible man. If Castro sneezed, he'd send Cuba to kingdom come. I never realized how isolated Kennedy and his brother were, facing a military desperately wanting to use nuclear weapons. Kennedy couldn't control the military, the CIA, J. Edgar Hoover, the Cuban Exiles. He had problems with big business and the oil barons. His brother foolishly rampaged the Mafia. Because of all this, I doubt he'd get re-elected in 1964. Why did they have to kill him? And I don't think anyone hated Kennedy more than Curtis LeMay. It was almost visceral.

I'm curious as to how Nixon at that time would have handled these problems with Cuba, Soviet, etc.

Kathy

[Tim Gratz]

Myra, of course you do not meet my point that there is no evidence--none, zip, sqat--linking LeMay to the assassination.

Why there isn't even a face in Dealey Plaza that looks even vaguely like him!

But absence of evidence never seems to bother many members from defaming the reputation of people who spent years serving this country!

I think there should be a law change allowing the descendants of people who are so defamed to sue--at least up to grandchildren.

[Tim Gratz]

Kathleen wrote:

Because of all this, I doubt he'd get re-elected in 1964. Why did they have to kill him?

Kathleen, this is, I think, a very good question, the answer to which could very well lead to some answers re who the conspirators were.

I believe I have discussed it before.

I can think of two potential reasons for removing JFK by violence rather than through constitutional procedures.

The first is that something was going on that required, to serve the needs of the conspirators, his immediate removal from office.

If this is the case, it could point to LBJ and it could also point to his nemesis Fidel, who we were still trying to kill in November of 1963. Remember if Cubela was indeed a double agent he would have reported to Fidel that he had received assurance that JFK's brother endorsed the plot to kill Castro. This possibility could also point to the Mafia which was desperate to end RFK's campaign against them--and also possibly Jimmy Hoffa.

The second possibility that I can see is that someone had such personal hatred for JFK that they wanted to see him dead not just defeated or otherwise removed from office. That could include anti-Castro exiles who felt betrayed by JFK over both the BOP and the deal ending the CMC. The problem I have with this explanation is since the CMC ended in October of 1962, why would they wait so long?

Edited August 14, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Tim Gratz]

Kathleen wrote:

Did anyone actually investigate LeMay regarding the Assassination of John Kennedy? He was top dog in the autopsy room that night and would not allow certain procedures.

Kathleen, respectfully, what is your basis for asserting that LeMay was even in the autopsy room?

Here is what my quick research found:

In 1992, Dr. Humes recalled the scene: "The President's military aides from the Air Force, Army, and Navy were all present, and they were all in dress uniforms, but they weren't generals and their influence on the autopsy was zero," Humes recalled. "The only high-ranking officer was Admiral Burkley [JFK's personal physician] and he left shortly after the autopsy began to join Jackie and Bobby upstairs."

Edited August 14, 2007 by Tim Gratz

[Alan Kent]

The prime suspect in the JFK assassination is Gen. Curtis LeMay.

After all, he detested both JFK and RFK.

In fact, the Kennedys were trying to put him in jail and/or deport him on the very date that JFK was assassinated.

He had made threats against the life of JFK.

Jack Ruby had ties to the organization he headed.

While hospitalized and sedated in the 1980s, he made statements about killing kennedy when Kennedy got to Dallas.

At the time of the assassination, David Ferrie was working for him.

Oops, sorry, that description fits Carlos Marcello, not Curtis LeMay! As far as I know, LeMay had a distinguished and unblemished military record and no history of ever participating in any criminal enterprise. And unless I missed something he never expressed to anyone taking any violent action against the Kennedys. Nor did he have any connection with Jack Ruby.

Follow this thread; the picture blurs:

1.) Johnny Rosselli, just prior to his demise, confided to his long-time attorney Tom Wadden that he had been involved in planning the assassination of President Kennedy.

2.) One of Rosselli's closest friends throughout his life was Chicago gangster Charles "Babe" Baron. Baron, suspected of involvement in at least two Depression-era murders, worked in Meyer Lansky-owned Cuban casinos, AND was a Brigadier General in the Illinois National Guard. In 1963, Baron was apparently on active military duty at the Pentagon. (Your tax dollars at work...)

3.) The HSCA discovered (through an interview with Tony Zoppi) that one of Baron's close friends was Gen. Curtis Lemay. An investigator found that Baron was visiting Lemay the very week that they had spoken to Zoppi.

4.) Lemay fudged his post-assassination travel itinerary to his biographer, Thomas Coffey, claiming that he had to rush to arrive in Washington in time for the funeral, when Air Force records make it clear that he arrived about 7:30 PM on the evening of the assassination. In time to be seen later that evening by Paul O'Conner in the Bethesda morgue. Where he seemingly had no official reason to be...

This story can be expanded a bit (sources available upon request). It proves nothing. It is, I submit, a very provocative, intersting collection of information, worthy of further examination. One should juxtapose it with some of Lemay's opinions about the Kennedy administration that were expressed in oral history interviews he gave during the 70's and 80's, in which he really "cut loose" about the danger he believed these men posed.

[Tim Gratz]

Alan,

You wrote:

Johnny Rosselli, just prior to his demise, confided to his long-time attorney Tom Wadden that he had been involved in planning the assassination of President Kennedy

I have read lots about Rosselli but have not seen this before. Do you have a source for it?

Interesting that O'Connor states that LeMay was present at the autopsy.

Thanks!