Sandy Larsen Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 He also met with G. Gordon Liddy and E. Howard Hunt at a crucial time relative to Watergate to discuss various ways of poisoning or introducing drugs to someone to incapacitate such a target. (If you want to believe that the target was actually Jack Anderson, I hope you don't also believe in unicorns, but the point is that Liddy and Hunt had someone in their sights for that kind of operation. Who that actually might have been is addressed in the book.) Didn't both Hunt and Liddy later admit there had been a plot to kill Jack Anderson? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashton Gray Posted January 18, 2016 Author Share Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) He also met with G. Gordon Liddy and E. Howard Hunt at a crucial time relative to Watergate to discuss various ways of poisoning or introducing drugs to someone to incapacitate such a target. (If you want to believe that the target was actually Jack Anderson, I hope you don't also believe in unicorns, but the point is that Liddy and Hunt had someone in their sights for that kind of operation. Who that actually might have been is addressed in the book.) Didn't both Hunt and Liddy later admit there had been a plot to kill Jack Anderson? Yes. That's what I just said in what you quoted. So what? If they had "admitted" that they met with Gunn because they wanted to kill a unicorn, it would have had just as much substance as their "admission" that they had wanted to kill Anderson. Here's just how asinine their "confession" about Anderson was: Tuesday, 15 February 1972 The CIA begins an illegal domestic spying operation, called Project Mudhen, with 16 CIA agents deployed to conduct surveillance on Jack Anderson and his staff. Project Mudhen is being run from the CIA's Office of Security. c. Wednesday, 1 March 1972 Douglas "Ragtop" Caddy begins doing "volunteer" work with G. Gordon Liddy—who has "special clearances" from the CIA. c. Friday, 17 March 1972 Douglas "Ragtop" Caddy meets with "former" CIA operative E. Howard Hunt, and with the General Counsel of the CIA, Lawrence Houston. Houston and Hunt have both been in the CIA since its inception. Houston was the very architect of the creation of the CIA, "a principal draftsman of the legislative proposal to abolish the CIG and establish the CIA." One former assistant general counsel of the CIA, A. John Radsan, has called Houston “the ultimate intelligence insider.” On or about the same day... Friday, 17 March 1972 CIA Director Richard Helms meets with Jack Anderson in the Montpelier Room restaurant at the Madison Hotel in the District of Columbia. Project Mudhen is continuing. Friday, 24 March 1972 "Former" CIA veteran E. Howard Hunt, and G. Gordon Liddy—who has "special clearances" from CIA—meet with "former" CIA scientist Dr. Edward Gunn to discuss methods of drugging or poisoning someone. At the time, Gunn is on the staff of "former" CIA Office of Security veteran James McCord, at McCord Associates in Rockville, Maryland. Project Mudhen is continuing. According to Gunn and Liddy, at no time was the name of the intended target of such operation discussed. [NOTE: Liddy claimed falsely in his autobiography that this took place in February. See Hougan et al. for reasons why it didn't, and why this is the most likely date for the meeting.] Wednesday, 12 April 1972 James McCord receives $65,000 ($375,348.91 in today's dollars) from G. Gordon Liddy, purportedly to purchase electronic eavesdropping equipment. On the same day the CIA discontinues Project Mudhen, ostensibly the surveillance of columnist Jack Anderson. [NOTE: Project Mudhen likely was serving a different purpose: illegal recordings by the CIA of telephone conversations that later would be used by G. Gordon Liddy to dictate phony "logs" that Sally Harmony would type up under the pretense that they had come from bugs in DNC headquarters—which bugs never were planted. That's why Mudhen ends on the same day as the transfer of money from Liddy to McCord.] So if you want to go right on believing Liddy's "admission" that he and Hunt were targeting Anderson with a drugging or poisoning operation, feel free. But it's football playoffs season, so: "C'mon, man!" Liddy and Hunt and their army of Miami goons also "admitted" that they had broken into DNC headquarters in the Watergate over Memorial Day weekend and planted two bugs there, which they claim later were "monitored" by Alfred Baldwin. But there was no "first break-in" at DNC headquarters over Memorial Day weekend 1972. There were no "bugs" planted in DNC headquarters at the Watergate at any relevant time. There were no "logs" of eavesdropping over any such "bugs," because there were no bugs. The logs were created strictly from Liddy's lying lips, dictated and given to Sally Harmony to type up. Their "confessions" all were lies, an elaborate vicious hoax, a scripted fiction of "talking points" that none of them can keep straight—and fiction doesn't leave a paper trail. If you want to discuss Watergate any further, join me in the Watergate forum. I only have responded to this point because of Edward Gunn's involvement, and his history of devising surreptitious poison delivery systems for the CIA, including times relevant to the Kennedy assassination. I will attempt to answer there valid questions going to pertinent facts, but I am not going to have a lot of time to devote to it in the coming months. Ashton Gray Edited January 18, 2016 by Ashton Gray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) If you want to discuss Watergate any further, join me in the Watergate forum. I only have responded to this point because of Edward Gunn's involvement, and his history of devising surreptitious poison delivery systems for the CIA, including times relevant to the Kennedy assassination. --- Hi Ashton, welcome back. This subject interests me the most. MK/NAOMI Larry Hancock's Nexus, pg 36 <quote on, emphasis in original> Confirmation of the MKNAOMI project was revealed in 1977, when Carter administration Defense Secretary Brown requested an internal review of CIA projects which had involved the Department of Defense. The Department of Defense's legal counsel conducted the investigation and among other things reported back that MKNAOMI had begun in the early 1950's and was "intended to stockpile severely incapacitating and lethal materials and to develop gadgetry for dissemination of these materials." A June 29, 1975 CIA memorandum has also been located which documents the SOD/CIA relationship and confirms that no written records were kept; management was by verbal instruction and "human continuity." The memo refers to "swarms of project requests" and cites examples of suicide pills, chemicals to anesthetize occupants to facilitate building entries, "L-pills" and aphrodisiacs for operational use. The memo notes "some requests for support approved by the CIA had apparently involved assassination." <quote off> According to a civilian DOD employee the MK/NAOMI project at Ft. Detrick involved CIA men operating under military cover. From the Church Com. testimony of top civilian weapons developer Charles Senseney: http://www.aarclibra..._6_Senseney.pdf <quote on> Q: Were you aware that the CIA was working with Fort Detrick? Mr. Senseney: After a while. Not when I first went with the SO Division, but it became apparent later. Q: Did the CIA people use a false name to describe themselves? Mr. Senseney: Staff Support Group. Q: And that was a false name; was it not? Mr.Senseney: And it was also--you asked another question earlier this morning, at least someone did, P600 was their funding citation. Q: P600 was their funding citation? And the Staff Support Group was a false name? And who was it designed to mislead? Mr. Senseney: I don't know. Q: Is that a name that sounds like an Army group? Mr. Senseney: Well, you would have thought so to begin, because the first two that I was aware of were a colonel in the Air Force and a colonel in the Army. It looked like an Army support group of some sort at the start. Q: So both the name and the personnel made it look as if it was an Army group. even though, in fact, it was CIA personnel? Mr. Senseney: That's right. <quote off> More interesting MN/NAOMI material... Hank Albarelli's A Secret Order, pg 14 <quote on> [D]uring WWII George Hunter White and a number of other [Federal Bureau of Narcotics] agents assigned to the Office of Strategic Services (OSS), precursor to the CIA, worked very closely in New York City with Port Security and the Office of Naval Intelligence on what is now commonly called Operation Underworld. This was the top-secret project that involved freeing infamous gangster Charles "Lucky" Luciano from prison in return for his, and the Mafia's, assistance with security at America's ports and the Allied invasion of Italy. All the FBN agents assigned to work on Operation Underworld went on to become covert operatives of the CIA, and would become involved with Projects MK/ULTRA and MK/NAOMI. <quote off> MN/NAOMI consisted of diabolical doctors, mobbed up drug agents, and dart gun toting CIA men operating as military brass. A supra-insitutional high-tech death squad. Ashton, got anything on MK/NAOMI? Edited January 18, 2016 by Cliff Varnell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon G. Tidd Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 Ashton, You know clearly and deeply a lot about Watergate. Clearly and deeply. Do you see a connection between the JFK assassination and Watergate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Neal Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) Ashton Gray, on 17 Jan 2016 - 1:12 PM, said: There were only six who said they saw the would prior to the throat butchery by Dr. Perry. Ashton, By "throat butchery" are you referring to your belief that Perry created the 'throat wound' with a large-bore needle, the tracheostomy procedure, or surgery performed later that resulted in the ragged throat wound as described by Humes et al at Bethesda? Tom Edited January 18, 2016 by Tom Neal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashton Gray Posted January 19, 2016 Author Share Posted January 19, 2016 If you want to discuss Watergate any further, join me in the Watergate forum. I only have responded to this point because of Edward Gunn's involvement, and his history of devising surreptitious poison delivery systems for the CIA, including times relevant to the Kennedy assassination. --- Hi Ashton, welcome back. This subject interests me the most. MK/NAOMI Hiya, Cliff. Thanks for the warm welcome, and it's great to see you still around these parts. The best information I've seen on the subject of MK/Naomi is in H.P. Albarelli, Jr.'s book, A Terrible Mistake, subtitled The Murder of Frank Olson and the CIA's Secret Cold War Experiments. If you haven't read it I recommend it to your attention. He quotes Sidney Gottlieb in a number of places about it, e.g.: The Church Committee blurred the lines between all these programs, MKULTRA, ARTICHOKE, Bluebird, QKHILLTOP, Chemical Corps, NAOMI, SHADE, all of them became one and I was ... I didn’t have any problem with answering for them all, but I didn’t ... I didn’t oversee all these projects. Let’s leave it at that. I've found precious little about the program outside of that book. We all still suffer from Richard Helms and Sidney Gottlieb having destroyed so many CIA records of their atrocities. Some time ago a colleague sent me some PDFs of several logs of FOIA requests where MK/Naomi is mentioned, but only in titles of a few documents that are listed. I believe that one of the logs came from a place called The Government Attic, and the other was from The Black Vault website. Don't hold me to that; it's from recollection. I wish I could help more. Good luck with it. Ashton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashton Gray Posted January 19, 2016 Author Share Posted January 19, 2016 Ashton, You know clearly and deeply a lot about Watergate. Clearly and deeply. Do you see a connection between the JFK assassination and Watergate? Hi, Jon. Happy to make your acquaintance. Like many people, I do feel there is a connection between the two events, but Watergate and its consequences have long been the focus of my research. I am in awe of the many competent people who have done such magnificent work on the JFK assassination, and it was only by virtue of being an heir to their wealth of knowledge that I made this brief side-foray into the question of the front throat wound. The very obvious connection between the two events is the CIA. If we knew exactly how, these would no longer be controversial issues. As far as I'm concerned, my research has convinced me beyond any shred of doubt that it is the biggest and best-funded, best-protected criminal organization that ever has existed on Earth, hiding behind a self-created opaque veil of "national security." I don't know how the little record we have access to of their activities could leave any doubt about that in anyone's mind. Ashton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashton Gray Posted January 19, 2016 Author Share Posted January 19, 2016 (edited) Ashton Gray, on 17 Jan 2016 - 1:12 PM, said: There were only six who said they saw the would prior to the throat butchery by Dr. Perry. Ashton, By "throat butchery" are you referring to your belief that Perry created the 'throat wound' with a large-bore needle, the tracheostomy procedure, or surgery performed later that resulted in the ragged throat wound as described by Humes et al at Bethesda? Tom Yes. Okay, that was just a little levity, Tom. Pleased to meet you. Seriously, I don't have any "belief" about the throat wound having been created with a large-bore needle. After I presented my evidence in the first two posts in this thread that the pre-tracheostomy wound in his throat could not have been created by a bullet entering from the front, Mark Stapleton asked "what the hell was it." I proffered the piercing needle as one possibility, that's all. As I've elaborated on since, the CIA already had a history of not dissimilar artifice in various plans to assassinate world leaders. I have yet to see anyone effectively counter the facts I presented in the first post in this thread, and introduce any rational way a bullet could have penetrated his throat in that location without damaging the clothing covering that part of his throat. I stand by my original thesis that it could not possibly have been a front-entry bullet wound. As for what it was, Mark Stapleton asked a good question. I'm certainly open to other ideas of what it might have been. It does seem likely to me that the medical cuttings on the throat were to obliterate any clear analysis of what it had been, but whether that was intentional or not, it certainly accomplished that purpose. If it hadn't, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The original hole was not, and could not have been, a bullet shot at him from the front. Ashton Edited January 19, 2016 by Ashton Gray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 A fragment from the nose of a frangible bullet either entering low in the back of the skull, or glancing off the base of the rear of the skull and impacting the vertebrae at C3/C4, could have made the wound in the throat. If it had expended all of its energy by the time it exited the throat, it may not have gone through the shirt collar. Where did it go? I'd check JFK's briefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 If you want to discuss Watergate any further, join me in the Watergate forum. I only have responded to this point because of Edward Gunn's involvement, and his history of devising surreptitious poison delivery systems for the CIA, including times relevant to the Kennedy assassination. --- Hi Ashton, welcome back. This subject interests me the most. MK/NAOMI Hiya, Cliff. Thanks for the warm welcome, and it's great to see you still around these parts. The best information I've seen on the subject of MK/Naomi is in H.P. Albarelli, Jr.'s book, A Terrible Mistake, subtitled The Murder of Frank Olson and the CIA's Secret Cold War Experiments. If you haven't read it I recommend it to your attention. He quotes Sidney Gottlieb in a number of places about it, e.g.: The Church Committee blurred the lines between all these programs, MKULTRA, ARTICHOKE, Bluebird, QKHILLTOP, Chemical Corps, NAOMI, SHADE, all of them became one and I was ... I didn’t have any problem with answering for them all, but I didn’t ... I didn’t oversee all these projects. Let’s leave it at that. I've found precious little about the program outside of that book. We all still suffer from Richard Helms and Sidney Gottlieb having destroyed so many CIA records of their atrocities. Some time ago a colleague sent me some PDFs of several logs of FOIA requests where MK/Naomi is mentioned, but only in titles of a few documents that are listed. I believe that one of the logs came from a place called The Government Attic, and the other was from The Black Vault website. Don't hold me to that; it's from recollection. I wish I could help more. Good luck with it. Ashton Thank you, Ashton. Do you know which CIA project Dr. Edward M. Gunn worked with -- MKNAOMI, MKULTRA, MKDELTA, or did he report directly to Dr. Sidney Gottlieb, head of CIA Technical Services? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashton Gray Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 Do you know which CIA project Dr. Edward M. Gunn worked with -- MKNAOMI, MKULTRA, MKDELTA, or did he report directly to Dr. Sidney Gottlieb, head of CIA Technical Services? I don't know the exact answer to the question you've asked. There's a good deal of information that has been developed right here in the forum on Gunn, which you can find with a forum search. William Kelly and Robert Howard, for example, have done some very admirable research that includes info on Gunn. One thing I find more than a little fascinating in relation to this particular forum is this passage from H. P. Albarelli's A Terrible Mistake: The CIA’s Dr. Edward Gunn spent hours developing a delivery device, and on November 22, 1963 at a meeting in Paris, France, the device was handed over to a would-be assassin. Reads the CIA report: “It is likely that at the very moment President Kennedy was shot, a CIA officer was meeting with a Cuban agent in Paris and giving him an assassination device for use against Castro.” I don't think that needs further comment from me. According to this document, "CIA Inspector General's Report on Plots to Assassinate Fidel Castro," Gunn was Chief, Operations Division, Office of Medical Services in the CIA: http://www.angelfire.com/ny/syzergy/castroreport.htm There are probably better copies of that around, but that will do. I know of no source that has nailed down with anything approximating accuracy which of the alphabet-soup mind-control programs Gunn would have been directly involved in. Given the shredding parties of Richard Helms and Sidney Gottlieb to cover up their barbaric crimes against humanity, it's unlikely that we'll ever know. Ashton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 A fragment from the nose of a frangible bullet either entering low in the back of the skull, or glancing off the base of the rear of the skull and impacting the vertebrae at C3/C4, could have made the wound in the throat. If it had expended all of its energy by the time it exited the throat, it may not have gone through the shirt collar. Where did it go? I'd check JFK's briefs. I bumped this post, just in case Mr. Grey did not see it. As this addresses the actual topic of this thread, unlike many of the recent posts here, I thought it worthwhile to bring it back to the spotlight. Incidentally, the notion of the throat wound being caused by a fragment that had just enough energy left to break through the skin was proposed by a Parkland doctor (which one escapes me at the moment * ) while he was testifying to the Warren Commission. I believe he was attempting to explain why the throat wound was such a clean wound without ragged edges. * I've tried to find which doctor referred to the throat wound as being caused by a very low velocity bullet or fragment, to no avail. Anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Mitcham Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 (edited) Nurse Bowron in 1993. ”... I grabbed a gurney in the hall and together with an orderly ran to the entrance.I saw that the person in the back of the car was injured so I climbed in to render what assistance I could until such a time as we could move him to a trolley, then to the trauma room (others were assisting the Governor in the front seat). I saw that there was a massive amount of blood on the back seat and in order to find the cause, I lifted his head and my fingers went into a lrage wound at the back of his head; I turned his head a seeing the size of the wound realized that I could not stop the bleeding. I turned his head back and saw an entry wound in the front of the throat. " Seems the throat wound was there before the victim was moved into Parkland. The throat wound was above the tie, not behind it. The shirt shows cuts behind the tie, not a bullet hole. Mr. Dulles. I see. Dr. Carrico. The entrance. All we knew this was a small wound here.Mr. Dulles. ‘I see. And you put your hand right above where your tie is? Dr. Carrico. Yes, sir ; just where the tie---Mr. Dulles. A little bit to the left.Dr. Carrico. To the right.Mr. Dulles. Yes; to the right. Note the way Dulles interrupted Dr Carrico when he was describing exactly where the throat wound was. Edited January 20, 2016 by Ray Mitcham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Nurse Bowron in 1993. ”... I grabbed a gurney in the hall and together with an orderly ran to the entrance.I saw that the person in the back of the car was injured so I climbed in to render what assistance I could until such a time as we could move him to a trolley, then to the trauma room (others were assisting the Governor in the front seat). I saw that there was a massive amount of blood on the back seat and in order to find the cause, I lifted his head and my fingers went into a lrage wound at the back of his head; I turned his head a seeing the size of the wound realized that I could not stop the bleeding. I turned his head back and saw an entry wound in the front of the throat. " Seems the throat wound was there before the victim was moved into Parkland. The throat wound was above the tie, not behind it. The shirt shows cuts behind the tie, not a bullet hole. Mr. Dulles. I see. Dr. Carrico. The entrance. All we knew this was a small wound here.Mr. Dulles. ‘I see. And you put your hand right above where your tie is? Dr. Carrico. Yes, sir ; just where the tie--- Mr. Dulles. A little bit to the left. Dr. Carrico. To the right. Mr. Dulles. Yes; to the right. Note the way Dulles interrupted Dr Carrico when he was describing exactly where the throat wound was. Aint nothin' like a man that does his homework, Ray. Good show! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon G. Tidd Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 When JFK was brought into Parkland, who was the first medical person to see him? Who removed his jacket, shirt, and tie? Who was present when these items of clothing were removed? Were the shirt and tie cut in order to remove them? If not, how were the shirt and tie removed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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