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Chris Bennett

How did the shooters get in and out of the TSBD?

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Excellent Richard... thanks... I hadn't noticed that before... yet I am puzzled by something in his report...

First off he IS a Deputy Sheriff... and did NOT recognize other deputy sheriffs...

Based on this report... and the fact that Fritz does not return to the TSBD until 12:58....

How can he be one of the first to the 6th floor and the first one to find the shells almost 30 minutes after the fact??

and if correct... Williams' chicken was actually in the Sniper's next abd not a few windows down... Was Williams the black man Rowland sees at 12:15?

and then who would have been the white jacketed man with glasses, or the man in the SW window....

between Sawyer's man on the elevator at 12:35... and these men coming down the stairs (remember that Sawyer brings uniformed officers with him to the 4th floor)

It's easy to see how ANYONE could have easily slipped in and out of that building

:blink:

Regarding the timeline of finding of the shells by the SE 6th floor window: We know Baker was the first officer to get to the 6th floor, but he only gives it a quick look to see if there are any people there.

Mooney must have arrived on the 6th floor very soon after Baker left. I would estimate roughly 5-6 minutes after the last shot ( ran from Houston and Main to the Parking area ... 30 seconds? Spent " a couple of minutes there" ... 2 minutes? Received word to go to the TSBD and ran over there ... another 30 seconds?). Throw in a minute or two to take the elevator to the 2nd floor and then the stairs up (passing the two plain clothes men he assumes are police officers, between the 2nd and 3rd floors) to the 6th floor ... Mooney should be there for his first look at approximately 12:35 to 12:37. He criss-crosses the 6th floor and decides there is no one there, and then goes to the seventh floor. He does not say how much time he spends on the 7th floor, which includes crawling into a dark cubby hole. At this point, he decides to go back down to the 6th floor and discovers the empty shells, chicken, soda and box configuration by the SE Window.

Mooney's report on 11/23/63 states, "... Inside this cubby hole affair was three more boxes so arranged as to provide what appeared to be a rest for a rifle On one of these cartons was a half-eaten piece of chicken." The chicken was in the Snipers Lair on one of the boxes used as a prop for the rifle.

His WC testimony 4 months later (3/25/64): ...

Senator Cooper. How far was the chicken, the piece of chicken you saw, and

the paper bag from the boxes near the window, and particularly the box

that had the crease in it?

Mr. Mooney. I would say they might have been 5 feet or something like that.

He wouldn't have had to leave the location. He could just maybe take one

step and lay it over there, if he was the one that put it there.

Senator Cooper. You mean if someone bad been standing near the box with

the crease in it?

Mr. MOONEY. Yes, sir.

The location of the chicken moves 5' to the West. Apparently, the WC did not want the sniper leaving greasy chicken fingerprints on the rifle.

It is unfortunate that neither Harkness or Mooney gives a description of the men on the stairs or the SS guys by the back door. Had they done so, we would be able to compare with the several witness descriptions of the men on the 6th floor seen by Brennan, Carr, Crawford, Edwards, Euins, Fischer, Henderson and Rowland. Not to mention individuals seen climbing into station wagons.

Bonnie Ray Williams testified he was on the 6th floor until 12:15-12:20, certainly makes him a possibility for the black man seen by Euins and Rowland, although Rowland describes an older looking man. The half-eaten chicken, the lunch remnants left on the boxes, give the impression that William's lunch was prematurely ended when the men on the 6th floor arrived.

Baker is first cop to go up the back steps with Truly and runs into Oswald in second floor lunchroom and Brown Jacket Man on Sixth Floor, who Truly identifies as an employee.

When Mooney goes up he runs into two or three Sheriff's officers coming down - one a plain clothes man - which means he was a detective or undercover guy, of which there were only a few.

Who were the cops coming down the steps when Mooney was going up?

BK

JFKcountercoup

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Baker is first cop to go up the back steps with Truly and runs into Oswald in second floor lunchroom and Brown Jacket Man on Sixth Floor, who Truly identifies as an employee.

When Mooney goes up he runs into two or three Sheriff's officers coming down - one a plain clothes man - which means he was a detective or undercover guy, of which there were only a few.

Who were the cops coming down the steps when Mooney was going up?

BK

JFKcountercoup

Bill,

I want you to know that I consider you to be a terrific researcher. However, I would like to ask you a couple of questions:

1) Of the "two or three men" that Mooney passed on the stairs, why do you say that only one of them was dressed in "plainclothes"? Mooney suggests that all of them were "plainclothes" (which I take to mean suit-wearing)?

2) How did you arrive at "two or three" guys? Mooney said "some".

FROM LUKE MOONEY'S WARREN COMMISSION TESTIMONY:

[...]

Mr. BALL - Where did you go?

Mr. MOONEY - Mr. Webster and Mr. Vickery were there with me at the time that we received these orders from another deputy.

Mr. BALL - They are deputy sheriffs?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir; they were plainclothes officers like myself, work in the same department, and we run right over to the building then, which we were only 150, 200 feet back--I assume it is that distance I haven't measured it. It didn't take us but a few seconds to get there. When we hit the rear part, these big iron gates, they have cyclone fencing on them--this used to be an old grocery store warehouse--Sachs & Co., I believe is correct. And I says let's get these doors closed to block off this rear entrance.

Mr. BALL - Were the doors open?

Mr. MOONEY - They were wide open, the big gates. So I grabbed one, and we swung them to, and there was a citizen there, and I put him on orders to keep them shut, because I don't recall whether there was a lock on them or not. Didn't want to lock them because you never know what might happen.

So he stood guard, I assume, until a uniformed officer took over.

We shut the back door--there was a back door on a little dock. And then we went in through the docks, through the rear entrance.

Officer Vickery and Webster said, "We will take the staircase there in the corner.

I said, "I will go up the freight elevator." I noticed there was a big elevator there. So I jumped on it. And about that time two women come running and said, "we want to go to the second floor."

I said, "All right, get on, we are going."

Mr. BALL - Which elevator did you get on?

Mr. MOONEY - It was the one nearest to the staircase, on the northwest corner of the building.

Mr. BALL - There are two elevators there?

Mr. MOONEY - I found that out later. I didn't know it at that time.

Mr. BALL - You took the west one, or the east one?

Mr. MOONEY - I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the staircase.

Mr. BALL - Did it work with a push button?

Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.

Mr. BALL - You were alone?

Mr. MOONEY - I was alone at that time.

Mr. BALL - Was there any reason for you to go to the sixth floor?

Mr. MOONEY - No, sir. That is what I say. I don't know why. I just stopped on that particular floor. I thought I was pretty close to the top.

Mr. BALL - Were there any other officers on the floor?

Mr. MOONEY - I didn't see any at that time. I assume there had been other officers up there. But I didn't see them. And I begin criss-crossing it, round and round, through boxes, looking at open windows---some of them were open over on the south side. And I believe they had started laying some flooring up there.

I was checking the fire escapes. And criss-crossing back and forth. And then I decided--I saw there was another floor. And I said I would go up. So I went on up to the seventh floor. I approached Officers Webster and Vickery. They were up there in this little old stairway there that leads up into the attic. So we climbed up in there and looked around right quick.

[...]

--Tommy :)

BTW, I wonder if deputy sheriffs Vickery and Webster had been any other floors when Mooney ran into them on the seventh?

And I also wonder who the "citizen" was whom Mooney asked to guard the big gates at the rear of the building. Evidently the guy was already there when Mooney arrived. (I'm thinking it might have been a case of having the fox guard the chicken house.) What do you think, Bill?

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Baker is first cop to go up the back steps with Truly and runs into Oswald in second floor lunchroom and Brown Jacket Man on Sixth Floor, who Truly identifies as an employee.

When Mooney goes up he runs into two or three Sheriff's officers coming down - one a plain clothes man - which means he was a detective or undercover guy, of which there were only a few.

Who were the cops coming down the steps when Mooney was going up?

BK

JFKcountercoup

Bill,

I want you to know that I consider you to be a terrific researcher. However, I would like to ask you a couple of questions:

1) Of the "two or three men" that Mooney passed on the stairs, why do you say that only one of them was dressed in "plainclothes"? Mooney suggests that all of them were "plainclothes".

2) How did you arrive at "two or three" guys? Mooney said "some".

I wonder if deputy sheriffs Vickery and Webster had been any other floors when Mooney ran into them on the seventh? I also wonder who the "citizen" was whom Mooney asked to guard the big gates at the rear of the building. Evidently the guy was already there when Mooney arrived. (I'm thinking it might have been a case of having the fox guard the chicken house.) What do you think, Bill?

FROM LUKE MOONEY'S WARREN COMMISSION TESTIMONY:

[...]

Mr. BALL - Where did you go?

Mr. MOONEY - Mr. Webster and Mr. Vickery were there with me at the time that we received these orders from another deputy.

Mr. BALL - They are deputy sheriffs?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir; they were plainclothes officers like myself, work in the same department, and we run right over to the building then, which we were only 150, 200 feet back--I assume it is that distance I haven't measured it. It didn't take us but a few seconds to get there. When we hit the rear part, these big iron gates, they have cyclone fencing on them--this used to be an old grocery store warehouse--Sachs & Co., I believe is correct. And I says let's get these doors closed to block off this rear entrance.

Mr. BALL - Were the doors open?

Mr. MOONEY - They were wide open, the big gates. So I grabbed one, and we swung them to, and there was a citizen there, and I put him on orders to keep them shut, because I don't recall whether there was a lock on them or not. Didn't want to lock them because you never know what might happen.

So he stood guard, I assume, until a uniformed officer took over.

We shut the back door--there was a back door on a little dock. And then we went in through the docks, through the rear entrance.

Officer Vickery and Webster said, "We will take the staircase there in the corner.

I said, "I will go up the freight elevator." I noticed there was a big elevator there. So I jumped on it. And about that time two women come running and said, "we want to go to the second floor."

I said, "All right, get on, we are going."

Mr. BALL - Which elevator did you get on?

Mr. MOONEY - It was the one nearest to the staircase, on the northwest corner of the building.

Mr. BALL - There are two elevators there?

Mr. MOONEY - I found that out later. I didn't know it at that time.

Mr. BALL - You took the west one, or the east one?

Mr. MOONEY - I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the staircase.

Mr. BALL - Did it work with a push button?

Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.

Mr. BALL - You were alone?

Mr. MOONEY - I was alone at that time.

Mr. BALL - Was there any reason for you to go to the sixth floor?

Mr. MOONEY - No, sir. That is what I say. I don't know why. I just stopped on that particular floor. I thought I was pretty close to the top.

Mr. BALL - Were there any other officers on the floor?

Mr. MOONEY - I didn't see any at that time. I assume there had been other officers up there. But I didn't see them. And I begin criss-crossing it, round and round, through boxes, looking at open windows---some of them were open over on the south side. And I believe they had started laying some flooring up there.

I was checking the fire escapes. And criss-crossing back and forth. And then I decided--I saw there was another floor. And I said I would go up. So I went on up to the seventh floor. I approached Officers Webster and Vickery. They were up there in this little old stairway there that leads up into the attic. So we climbed up in there and looked around right quick.

[...]

--Tommy :)

edited, expanded, bumped

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Baker is first cop to go up the back steps with Truly and runs into Oswald in second floor lunchroom and Brown Jacket Man on Sixth Floor, who Truly identifies as an employee.

When Mooney goes up he runs into two or three Sheriff's officers coming down - one a plain clothes man - which means he was a detective or undercover guy, of which there were only a few.

Who were the cops coming down the steps when Mooney was going up?

BK

JFKcountercoup

Bill,

I want you to know that I consider you to be a terrific researcher. However, I would like to ask you a couple of questions:

1) Of the "two or three men" that Mooney passed on the stairs, why do you say that only one of them was dressed in "plainclothes"? Mooney suggests that all of them were "plainclothes".

2) How did you arrive at "two or three" guys? Mooney said "some".

I wonder if deputy sheriffs Vickery and Webster had been any other floors when Mooney ran into them on the seventh? I also wonder who the "citizen" was whom Mooney asked to guard the big gates at the rear of the building. Evidently the guy was already there when Mooney arrived. (I'm thinking it might have been a case of having the fox guard the chicken house.) What do you think, Bill?

FROM LUKE MOONEY'S WARREN COMMISSION TESTIMONY:

[...]

Mr. BALL - Where did you go?

Mr. MOONEY - Mr. Webster and Mr. Vickery were there with me at the time that we received these orders from another deputy.

Mr. BALL - They are deputy sheriffs?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir; they were plainclothes officers like myself, work in the same department, and we run right over to the building then, which we were only 150, 200 feet back--I assume it is that distance I haven't measured it. It didn't take us but a few seconds to get there. When we hit the rear part, these big iron gates, they have cyclone fencing on them--this used to be an old grocery store warehouse--Sachs & Co., I believe is correct. And I says let's get these doors closed to block off this rear entrance.

Mr. BALL - Were the doors open?

Mr. MOONEY - They were wide open, the big gates. So I grabbed one, and we swung them to, and there was a citizen there, and I put him on orders to keep them shut, because I don't recall whether there was a lock on them or not. Didn't want to lock them because you never know what might happen.

So he stood guard, I assume, until a uniformed officer took over.

We shut the back door--there was a back door on a little dock. And then we went in through the docks, through the rear entrance.

Officer Vickery and Webster said, "We will take the staircase there in the corner.

I said, "I will go up the freight elevator." I noticed there was a big elevator there. So I jumped on it. And about that time two women come running and said, "we want to go to the second floor."

I said, "All right, get on, we are going."

Mr. BALL - Which elevator did you get on?

Mr. MOONEY - It was the one nearest to the staircase, on the northwest corner of the building.

Mr. BALL - There are two elevators there?

Mr. MOONEY - I found that out later. I didn't know it at that time.

Mr. BALL - You took the west one, or the east one?

Mr. MOONEY - I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the staircase.

Mr. BALL - Did it work with a push button?

Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.

Mr. BALL - You were alone?

Mr. MOONEY - I was alone at that time.

Mr. BALL - Was there any reason for you to go to the sixth floor?

Mr. MOONEY - No, sir. That is what I say. I don't know why. I just stopped on that particular floor. I thought I was pretty close to the top.

Mr. BALL - Were there any other officers on the floor?

Mr. MOONEY - I didn't see any at that time. I assume there had been other officers up there. But I didn't see them. And I begin criss-crossing it, round and round, through boxes, looking at open windows---some of them were open over on the south side. And I believe they had started laying some flooring up there.

I was checking the fire escapes. And criss-crossing back and forth. And then I decided--I saw there was another floor. And I said I would go up. So I went on up to the seventh floor. I approached Officers Webster and Vickery. They were up there in this little old stairway there that leads up into the attic. So we climbed up in there and looked around right quick.

[...]

--Tommy :)

edited, expanded, bumped

Tommy Terriffic,

You are correct, and I am guilty of sloppy wording, as I had read Mooney's testimony years ago and wondered who those guys were coming down the stairs and just wrote what I thought I remembered, and you are certainly more specific and correct.

I also think that Mooney was a Sheriff's deputy, and was standing outside the sheriff's office when the motorcade went by, standing with many other sherriff's office workers who were ordered to stand down on security, if I remember correctly. So how would he not be able to recognize and name his co-workers, or stop them and ask them a question?

And in saying they were plain clothes, that probably means not uniformed and not undercover - they were probably in suits and ties, and not like the guy standing among the homicide cops and boxes on the sixth floor.

Also Tommy, do you live in Rep. Darrell Issa's district north of San Diego ("where they play guitars all night and all day," as Bruce the Boss would say)?

BK

Edited by William Kelly

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David, ( and Tommy, Bill and anyone else who is interested)

I have put together a rough draft of a timeline of persons of interest in the TSBD just before and after the shots were fired. I am posting it here in the hopes of getting additional info from members who may be able to fill in some of the blanks, or make corrections. Ideally, I would like to be able to list and time-stamp witness sightings of unidentified (or known) persons who may have been involved in the plot.

Rough draft below. (*Note: I am aware of some of the conflicting statements)

Timeline:

12:00: Eddie Piper sees Oswald on the 1st floor of the TSBD.

12:05 –12:10: Bonnie Ray Williams goes to 6th floor to eat lunch (sees and hears no one) (?)(2)

12:12: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in hallway between front door and double doors a few minutes

before 12:15 (?)

12:15– 12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in the 1st floor Lunch Room

12:15: Arnold Rowland sees man with Rifle on 6th floor (slender, dark hair, light shirt open at neck; other man was dark)

12:15– 12:20: BRW takes elevator from 6th to 5th floor leaving partially eaten chicken behind (?) (sees and hears no one)

12:18: Howard Brennan sees man on 6th floor with Rifle. (w/m, early 30's, slender, 165-75,light clothing)

12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald on 1st floor near front of TSBD (? conflict w 12:12 sighting)

12:26- 12:30: Ruby Henderson sees two men on 6th/ or Top floor. One dark (Mexican or Negro), and was wearing a white shirt. The other man was the taller and lighter of the two

12:28: Richard Carr sees heavy set man, w hat, glasses, tan sport coat in 2ndwindow from East corner, 7th floor. (1)

12:29: Carolyn Walther sees two men w/ Rifle in 5th floor East corner Window. (one man wearing brown suit coat)

12:29 Fischer and Edwards see w/m in 6th floor east corner window

12:30: Shots fired at JFK Limo.

12:30 Amos Euins sees Black man with rifle in 6th floor corner window (later changed to white man)

12:30 Brennan sees white man w Rifle in 6th floor corner window

12:30: Jack Dougherty is 10 feet from West Elevator on 5th floor (within sight and sound of NW stairs); hears shot.

12:30: Dillard Picture shows Jarman, Norman and Williams in 5th floor windows. They say they run to West Window after shots.

12:31: Vicky Adams and Sandra Styles descend the NW Rear stairs from the 4th floor to the 1st floor (see & hear no one).

12:31: Otis Williams runs up NW stairway to 4th floor (sees no one) goes back to his 2nd floor office (?) (4)

12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (accomplices? may be Shelley & Lovelady according to Adams)

12:31: Officer Barnett runs to guard back of TSBD (and Fire Escape on East Side).

12:31:30: Officer Baker and Roy Truly on 2nd floor by NW stairway; claim to see Oswald in Lunch room. (WC testimony)

12:32: HSCA analysis show boxes in 6th floor window rearranged within 2 minutes of shooting.

12:32 – 12:33 Mrs. Reid returns to her 2nd floor office. Oswald calmly walks by her with coke in hand.

12:32– 12:36: Carr sees the same man he previously saw in the window, walk away from the TSBD and get into a Rambler Station Wagon

12:32– 12:33: Officer Baker sees man on 3rd or 4th floor, w/m, 30 yrs old, 5'9, 165 lb, dark hair, light brown jacket. Manager vouches for this man and Baker lets him go. (Baker 11/22/63 affidavit)

12:33: Officer Barnett moves from Back to guard Front entrance of TSBD

12:33 James Worrell see a man in a dark sportcoat and light colored pants dash out of the back of the TSBD about 3 minutes after shots fired at motorcade. Man was late 20's /early 30's, 5'8", dark brown hair. Ran South on Houston.

12:33– 12:34: Dougherty takes West Elevator down to 1st floor. (?) Talks to Givens.

12:33– 12:34: Baker and Truly on 5thfloor, spot East Elevator, but West elevator is missing

12:33– 12:36: Officers Mooney, Vickery and Webster arrive at 1st floor rear elevator. Vickery & Webster take stairs up. Mooney takes elevator up to 2nd floor, where power goes off, he switches to the stairs and encounters "two men he believes to be officers" in plain clothes coming down the stairs. He passes these men and continues up.

12:33– 12:36: In his report of 11/23/63, Det. Harry Weatherford claims that he, Mooney, Boone, Walters, and Webster all went into the rear ofthe TSBD together and ascend the stairs. Weatherford goes out the window to search the roof of the loading dock, then comes back in and searches the first floor [sic] with an "unknown DPD Detective"(?) Then he goes to the top floor and eventually joins Mooney & Co. on the 6th floor

12:34– 12:35: Lillian Mooneyham sees man standing behind boxes on 6th floor of TSBD.

12:34– 12:36: Officer Mooney arrives for first quick survey (does not go to "sniper lair") of 6th floor, sees no one, then goes up to 7th floor.

12:34: Sawyer enters Front of TSBD, enters Passenger elevator; runs into "this Man"; goes up to 4thfloor*

12:35: Baker and Truly are on roof of TSBD

12:35: Harkness arrives at rear (North Loading dock) door of TSBD. Sees "SS Agents".

12:36: Euins tells Officer Harkness shots came from 5th floor TSBD

12:37: Sawyer returns to 1st floor, goes out in front to set up Command Post.

Undetermined time: Mooney, Vickery, and Webster leave 7th floor, go down to 6th floor; Mooney discovers SE window box configuration, empty shells, chicken bones and soda. Shortly before 1:00 (?), Mooney Leans out window and Signals Fritz.

12:43-12:45: Description of suspect broadcast by DPD: w/m, 30, 5'10, 165, 30-30 Winchester Rifle

12:44: Roger Craig hears whistle. Sees Nash Rambler Station Wagon stop; sees w/m, 140-150, brown hair, in his 20's, white T shirt runs down slope and gets inside. Craig runs over to the Command Post in front of the TSBD entrance and encounters a SS Agent ("40 years old, sandy-haired with a distinct cleft in his chin. He was well-dressed in a gray business suit")

Undetermined time: Fritz arrives at TSBD (sometime before 1:00 ?)

1:22: Boone and Weitzman discover Rifle between boxes

Edited by Richard Hocking

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Richard, now don't be doing something reasonable and rational that will help make people understand what we are talking about, when its much more fun to just argue and bicker and call each other names.

FYI, Barry Krusch is also working on chronologies and has put together some of them here:

Chronologies - The Education Forum

It would be totally cool if someone would come up with a program that allows us to merge all of these chronologies together, though keeping their integrity, possibly by using a different color or font for each one.

They would have to be formalized into one style however, and minimized to basic tenants -

DATE - TIME - PLACE - PERSON -EVENT ie

1963 - Sept. 23 - 8 AM - New Orleans, La. - Lee H. Oswald - Leaves Apt. with two suitcases.

The whole idea of developing a usable chronology is to pare it down to basics so patterns can be seen - and not to clutter it up with extraneous facts that only confuse things.

I think Mary Ferrell's chrono (index cards, ala Bannister and CIA) and Ira Wood's are probably the best styles and should be duplicated, though the way you have done it is okay and works for me.

Just as you would like to isolate the items that refer to the movements of people to and from the Sixth Floor - Mary Ferrell tried to isolate all the items that had something to do with the Mexico City trip.

A chronology also works better with a diagram of the physical layout we are talking about., along with a list of the people mentioned and who they are. A source for each item entered would also help.

Paul Thompson's 9/11 Timeline is probably a good style to copy.

Complete 911 Timeline

Good luck to both Barry and Richard

BK

JFKCountercoup2

David, ( and Tommy, Bill and anyone else who is interested)

I have put together a rough draft of a timeline of persons of interest in the TSBD just before and after the shots were fired. I am posting it here in the hopes of getting additional info from members who may be able to fill in some of the blanks, or make corrections. Ideally, I would like to be able to list and time-stamp witness sightings of unidentified (or known) persons who may have been involved in the plot.

Rough draft below. (*Note: I am aware of some of the conflicting statements)

Timeline:

12:00: Eddie Piper sees Oswald on the 1st floor of the TSBD.

12:05 –12:10: Bonnie Ray Williams goes to 6th floor to eat lunch (sees and hears no one) (?)(2)

12:12: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in hallway between front door and double doors a few minutes

before 12:15 (?)

12:15– 12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in the 1st floor Lunch Room

12:15: Arnold Rowland sees man with Rifle on 6th floor (slender, dark hair, light shirt open at neck; other man was dark)

12:15– 12:20: BRW takes elevator from 6th to 5th floor leaving partially eaten chicken behind (?) (sees and hears no one)

12:18: Howard Brennan sees man on 6th floor with Rifle. (w/m, early 30's, slender, 165-75,light clothing)

12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald on 1st floor near front of TSBD (? conflict w 12:12 sighting)

12:26- 12:30: Ruby Henderson sees two men on 6th/ or Top floor. One dark (Mexican or Negro), and was wearing a white shirt. The other man was the taller and lighter of the two

12:28: Richard Carr sees heavy set man, w hat, glasses, tan sport coat in 2ndwindow from East corner, 7th floor. (1)

12:29: Carolyn Walther sees two men w/ Rifle in 5th floor East corner Window. (one man wearing brown suit coat)

12:29 Fischer and Edwards see w/m in 6th floor east corner window

12:30: Shots fired at JFK Limo.

12:30 Amos Euins sees Black man with rifle in 6th floor corner window(later changed to white man)

12:30 Brennan sees white man w Rifle in 6th floor corner window

12:30: Jack Dougherty is 10 feet from West Elevator on 5th floor (within sight and sound of NW stairs); hears shot.

12:30: Dillard Picture shows Jarman, Norman and Williams in 5th floor windows. They say they run to West Window after shots.

12:31: Vicky Adams and Sandra Styles descend the NW Rear stairs from the 4th floor to the 1st floor (see & hear no one).

12:31: Otis Williams runs up NW stairway to 4th floor (sees no one) goes back to his 2nd floor office (?) (4)

12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (accomplices? may be Shelley & Lovelady according to Adams)

12:31: Officer Barnett runs to guard back of TSBD (and Fire Escape on East Side).

12:31:30: Officer Baker and Roy Truly on 2nd floor by NW stairway; claim to see Oswald in Lunch room. (WC testimony)

12:32: HSCA analysis show boxes in 6th floor window rearranged within 2 minutes of shooting.

12:32 – 12:33 Mrs. Reid returns to her 2nd floor office. Oswald calmly walks by her with coke in hand.

12:32– 12:36: Carr sees the same man he previously saw in the window, walk away from the TSBD and get into a Rambler Station Wagon

12:32– 12:33: Officer Baker sees man on 3rd or 4th floor, w/m, 30 yrs old, 5'9, 165 lb, dark hair, light brown jacket. Manager vouches for this man and Baker lets him go. (Baker 11/22/63 affidavit)

12:33: Officer Barnett moves from Back to guard Front entrance of TSBD

12:33 James Worrell see a man in a dark sportcoat and light colored pants dash out of the back of the TSBD about 3 minutes after shots fired at motorcade. Man was late 20's /early 30's, 5'8", dark brown hair. Ran South on Houston.

12:33– 12:34: Dougherty takes West Elevator down to 1st floor. (?) Talks to Givens.

12:33– 12:34: Baker and Truly on 5thfloor, spot East Elevator, but West elevator is missing

12:33– 12:36: Officers Mooney, Vickery and Webster arrive at 1st floor rear elevator. Vickery & Webster take stairs up. Mooney takes elevator up to 2nd floor, where power goes off, he switches to the stairs and encounters "two men he believes to be officers" in plain clothes coming down the stairs. He passes these men and continues up.

12:33– 12:36: In his report of 11/23/63, Det. Harry Weatherford claims that he, Mooney, Boone, Walters, and Webster all went into the rear ofthe TSBD together and ascend the stairs. Weatherford goes out the window to search the roof of the loading dock, then comes back in and searches the first floor [sic] with an "unknown DPD Detective"(?) Then he goes to the top floor and eventually joins Mooney & Co. on the 6th floor

12:34– 12:35: Lillian Mooneyham sees man standing behind boxes on 6th floor of TSBD.

12:34– 12:36: Officer Mooney arrives for first quick survey (does not go to "sniper lair") of 6th floor, sees no one, then goes up to 7th floor.

12:34: Sawyer enters Front of TSBD, enters Passenger elevator; runs into "this Man"; goes up to 4thfloor*

12:35: Baker and Truly are on roof of TSBD

12:35: Harkness arrives at rear (North Loading dock) door of TSBD. Sees "SS Agents".

12:36: Euins tells Officer Harkness shots came from 5th floor TSBD

12:37: Sawyer returns to 1st floor, goes out in front to set up Command Post.

Undetermined time: Mooney, Vickery, and Webster leave 7th floor, go down to 6th floor; Mooney discovers SE window box configuration, empty shells, chicken bones and soda. Shortly before 1:00 (?), Mooney Leans out window and Signals Fritz.

12:43-12:45: Description of suspect broadcast by DPD: w/m, 30, 5'10, 165, 30-30 WinchesterRifle

12:44: Roger Craig hears whistle. Sees Nash Rambler Station Wagon stop; sees w/m, 140-150, brown hair, in his 20's, white T shirt runs down slope and gets inside. Craig runs over to the Command Post in front of the TSBD entrance and encounters a SS Agent ("40 years old,sandy-haired with a distinct cleft in his chin. He was well-dressed in a graybusiness suit")

Undeterminedtime: Fritz arrives at TSBD(sometime before 1:00 ?)

1:22: Boone and Weitzman discover Rifle between boxes

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Richard, now don't be doing something reasonable and rational that will help make people understand what we are talking about, when its much more fun to just argue and bicker and call each other names.

FYI, Barry Krusch is also working on chronologies and has put together some of them here:

Chronologies - The Education Forum

It would be totally cool if someone would come up with a program that allows us to merge all of these chronologies together, though keeping their integrity, possibly by using a different color or font for each one.

They would have to be formalized into one style however, and minimized to basic tenants -

DATE - TIME - PLACE - PERSON -EVENT ie

1963 - Sept. 23 - 8 AM - New Orleans, La. - Lee H. Oswald - Leaves Apt. with two suitcases.

The whole idea of developing a usable chronology is to pare it down to basics so patterns can be seen - and not to clutter it up with extraneous facts that only confuse things.

I think Mary Ferrell's chrono (index cards, ala Bannister and CIA) and Ira Wood's are probably the best styles and should be duplicated, though the way you have done it is okay and works for me.

Just as you would like to isolate the items that refer to the movements of people to and from the Sixth Floor - Mary Ferrell tried to isolate all the items that had something to do with the Mexico City trip.

A chronology also works better with a diagram of the physical layout we are talking about., along with a list of the people mentioned and who they are. A source for each item entered would also help.

JFKCountercoup2

Need links to first, third-fourth-fifth-sixth-seventh floors.

Paul Thompson's 9/11 Timeline is probably a good style to copy.

Complete 911 Timeline

Good luck to both Barry and Richard

BK

David, ( and Tommy, Bill and anyone else who is interested)

I have put together a rough draft of a timeline of persons of interest in the TSBD just before and after the shots were fired. I am posting it here in the hopes of getting additional info from members who may be able to fill in some of the blanks, or make corrections. Ideally, I would like to be able to list and time-stamp witness sightings of unidentified (or known) persons who may have been involved in the plot.

Rough draft below. (*Note: I am aware of some of the conflicting statements)

Timeline:

12:00: Eddie Piper sees Oswald on the 1st floor of the TSBD.

12:05 –12:10: Bonnie Ray Williams goes to 6th floor to eat lunch (sees and hears no one) (?)(2)

12:12: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in hallway between front door and double doors a few minutes

before 12:15 (?)

12:15– 12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in the 1st floor Lunch Room

12:15: Arnold Rowland sees man with Rifle on 6th floor (slender, dark hair, light shirt open at neck; other man was dark)

12:15– 12:20: BRW takes elevator from 6th to 5th floor leaving partially eaten chicken behind (?) (sees and hears no one)

12:18: Howard Brennan sees man on 6th floor with Rifle. (w/m, early 30's, slender, 165-75,light clothing)

12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald on 1st floor near front of TSBD (? conflict w 12:12 sighting)

12:26- 12:30: Ruby Henderson sees two men on 6th/ or Top floor. One dark (Mexican or Negro), and was wearing a white shirt. The other man was the taller and lighter of the two

12:28: Richard Carr sees heavy set man, w hat, glasses, tan sport coat in 2ndwindow from East corner, 7th floor. (1)

12:29: Carolyn Walther sees two men w/ Rifle in 5th floor East corner Window. (one man wearing brown suit coat)

12:29 Fischer and Edwards see w/m in 6th floor east corner window

12:30: Shots fired at JFK Limo.

12:30 Amos Euins sees Black man with rifle in 6th floor corner window(later changed to white man)

12:30 Brennan sees white man w Rifle in 6th floor corner window

12:30: Jack Dougherty is 10 feet from West Elevator on 5th floor (within sight and sound of NW stairs); hears shot.

12:30: Dillard Picture shows Jarman, Norman and Williams in 5th floor windows. They say they run to West Window after shots.

12:31: Vicky Adams and Sandra Styles descend the NW Rear stairs from the 4th floor to the 1st floor (see & hear no one).

12:31: Otis Williams runs up NW stairway to 4th floor (sees no one) goes back to his 2nd floor office (?) (4)

12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (accomplices? may be Shelley & Lovelady according to Adams)

12:31: Officer Barnett runs to guard back of TSBD (and Fire Escape on East Side).

12:31:30: Officer Baker and Roy Truly on 2nd floor by NW stairway; claim to see Oswald in Lunch room. (WC testimony)

12:32: HSCA analysis show boxes in 6th floor window rearranged within 2 minutes of shooting.

12:32 – 12:33 Mrs. Reid returns to her 2nd floor office. Oswald calmly walks by her with coke in hand.

12:32– 12:36: Carr sees the same man he previously saw in the window, walk away from the TSBD and get into a Rambler Station Wagon

12:32– 12:33: Officer Baker sees man on 3rd or 4th floor, w/m, 30 yrs old, 5'9, 165 lb, dark hair, light brown jacket. Manager vouches for this man and Baker lets him go. (Baker 11/22/63 affidavit)

12:33: Officer Barnett moves from Back to guard Front entrance of TSBD

12:33 James Worrell see a man in a dark sportcoat and light colored pants dash out of the back of the TSBD about 3 minutes after shots fired at motorcade. Man was late 20's /early 30's, 5'8", dark brown hair. Ran South on Houston.

12:33– 12:34: Dougherty takes West Elevator down to 1st floor. (?) Talks to Givens.

12:33– 12:34: Baker and Truly on 5thfloor, spot East Elevator, but West elevator is missing

12:33– 12:36: Officers Mooney, Vickery and Webster arrive at 1st floor rear elevator. Vickery & Webster take stairs up. Mooney takes elevator up to 2nd floor, where power goes off, he switches to the stairs and encounters "two men he believes to be officers" in plain clothes coming down the stairs. He passes these men and continues up.

12:33– 12:36: In his report of 11/23/63, Det. Harry Weatherford claims that he, Mooney, Boone, Walters, and Webster all went into the rear ofthe TSBD together and ascend the stairs. Weatherford goes out the window to search the roof of the loading dock, then comes back in and searches the first floor [sic] with an "unknown DPD Detective"(?) Then he goes to the top floor and eventually joins Mooney & Co. on the 6th floor

12:34– 12:35: Lillian Mooneyham sees man standing behind boxes on 6th floor of TSBD.

12:34– 12:36: Officer Mooney arrives for first quick survey (does not go to "sniper lair") of 6th floor, sees no one, then goes up to 7th floor.

12:34: Sawyer enters Front of TSBD, enters Passenger elevator; runs into "this Man"; goes up to 4thfloor*

12:35: Baker and Truly are on roof of TSBD

12:35: Harkness arrives at rear (North Loading dock) door of TSBD. Sees "SS Agents".

12:36: Euins tells Officer Harkness shots came from 5th floor TSBD

12:37: Sawyer returns to 1st floor, goes out in front to set up Command Post.

Undetermined time: Mooney, Vickery, and Webster leave 7th floor, go down to 6th floor; Mooney discovers SE window box configuration, empty shells, chicken bones and soda. Shortly before 1:00 (?), Mooney Leans out window and Signals Fritz.

12:43-12:45: Description of suspect broadcast by DPD: w/m, 30, 5'10, 165, 30-30 WinchesterRifle

12:44: Roger Craig hears whistle. Sees Nash Rambler Station Wagon stop; sees w/m, 140-150, brown hair, in his 20's, white T shirt runs down slope and gets inside. Craig runs over to the Command Post in front of the TSBD entrance and encounters a SS Agent ("40 years old,sandy-haired with a distinct cleft in his chin. He was well-dressed in a graybusiness suit")

Undeterminedtime: Fritz arrives at TSBD(sometime before 1:00 ?)

1:22: Boone and Weitzman discover Rifle between boxes

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[...]

It would be totally cool if someone would come up with a program that allows us to merge all of these chronologies together, though keeping their integrity, possibly by using a different color or font for each one.

[...]

I think it's a pretty good idea, Bill, as long as we limit it to the TSBD and its immediate environs, you know, like the big double outside "gates" at the back of the building which Mooney told an unknown Johnny On The Spot "citizen" to guard.

--Tommy :)

P.S. Bill, how many of the "two or three" guys Mooney passed on the stairs do you think were wearing "plainclothes"? One of them? All two of them" All three of them? Thanks!

Edited by Thomas Graves

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My comments in blue

David, ( and Tommy, Bill and anyone else who is interested)

I have put together a rough draft of a timeline of persons of interest in the TSBD just before and after the shots were fired. I am posting it here in the hopes of getting additional info from members who may be able to fill in some of the blanks, or make corrections. Ideally, I would like to be able to list and time-stamp witness sightings of unidentified (or known) persons who may have been involved in the plot.

Rough draft below. (*Note: I am aware of some of the conflicting statements)

Timeline:

12:00: Eddie Piper sees Oswald on the 1st floor of the TSBD.

12:05 –12:10: Bonnie Ray Williams goes to 6th floor to eat lunch (sees and hears no one) (?)(2)

12:12: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in hallway between front door and double doors a few minutes

before 12:15 (?)

12:15– 12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in the 1st floor Lunch Room

12:15: Arnold Rowland sees man with Rifle on 6th floor (slender, dark hair, light shirt open at neck; other man was dark)

12:15– 12:20: BRW takes elevator from 6th to 5th floor leaving partially eaten chicken behind (?) (sees and hears no one)

12:18: Howard Brennan sees man on 6th floor with Rifle. (w/m, early 30's, slender, 165-75,light clothing)

12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald on 1st floor near front of TSBD (? conflict w 12:12 sighting)

Was this from Summers'interview... cause I've read where 12:25 was related to Arnold... yet I think that Reid was a much more likelycandidate to have seen Oswald on the 2nd floor when she left to go outside...

12:26- 12:30: Ruby Henderson sees two men on 6th/ or Top floor. One dark (Mexican or Negro), and was wearing a white shirt. The other man was the taller and lighter of the two

12:28: Richard Carr sees heavy set man, w hat, glasses, tan sport coat in 2ndwindow from East corner, 7th floor. (1)

12:29: Carolyn Walther sees two men w/ Rifle in 5th floor East corner Window. (one man wearing brown suit coat)

Geneva Hine, the only employee in the Depository’s second floor offices, observes the electrical power and telephone system go dead.

"In the motorcade’s Vice Presidential limousine, Lyndon Johnson is later described as having his

ear up against a small walkie-talkie held over the back seat, listening to the device which is turned low.

(This description comes from Sen. Ralph Yarborough who is riding with Johnson.)"

12:29 Fischer and Edwards see w/m in 6th floor east corner window

12:30: Shots fired at JFK Limo.

12:30 Amos Euins sees Black man with rifle in 6th floor corner window (later changed to white man)

12:30 Brennan sees white man w Rifle in 6th floor corner window

12:30: Jack Dougherty is 10 feet from West Elevator on 5th floor (within sight and sound of NW stairs); hears shot.

12:30: Dillard Picture shows Jarman, Norman and Williams in 5th floor windows. They say they run to West Window after shots.

12:31: Vicky Adams and Sandra Styles descend the NW Rear stairs from the 4th floor to the 1st floor (see & hear no one).

12:31: Otis Williams runs up NW stairway to 4th floor (sees no one) goes back to his 2nd floor office (?) (4)

12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (accomplices? may be Shelley & Lovelady according to Adams)

12:31: Officer Barnett runs to guard back of TSBD (and Fire Escape on East Side).

12:31:30: Officer Baker and Roy Truly on 2nd floor by NW stairway; claim to see Oswald in Lunch room. (WC testimony)

12:32: HSCA analysis show boxes in 6th floor window rearranged within 2 minutes of shooting.

12:32 – 12:33 Mrs. Reid returns to her 2nd floor office. Oswald calmly walks by her with coke in hand.

12:32– 12:36: Carr sees the same man he previously saw in the window, walk away from the TSBD and get into a Rambler Station Wagon

12:32– 12:33: Officer Baker sees man on 3rd or 4th floor, w/m, 30 yrs old, 5'9, 165 lb, dark hair, light brown jacket. Manager vouches for this man and Baker lets him go. (Baker 11/22/63 affidavit)

12:33: Officer Barnett moves from Back to guard Front entrance of TSBD

12:33 James Worrell see a man in a dark sportcoat and light colored pants dash out of the back of the TSBD about 3 minutes after shots fired at motorcade. Man was late 20's /early 30's, 5'8", dark brown hair. Ran South on Houston.

12:33– 12:34: Dougherty takes West Elevator down to 1st floor. (?) Talks to Givens.

12:33– 12:34: Baker and Truly on 5thfloor, spot East Elevator, but West elevator is missing

12:33– 12:36: Officers Mooney, Vickery and Webster arrive at 1st floor rear elevator. Vickery & Webster take stairs up. Mooney takes elevator up to 2nd floor, where power goes off, he switches to the stairs and encounters "two men he believes to be officers" in plain clothes coming down the stairs. He passes these men and continues up.

12:33– 12:36: In his report of 11/23/63, Det. Harry Weatherford claims that he, Mooney, Boone, Walters, and Webster all went into the rear ofthe TSBD together and ascend the stairs. Weatherford goes out the window to search the roof of the loading dock, then comes back in and searches the first floor [sic] with an "unknown DPD Detective"(?) Then he goes to the top floor and eventually joins Mooney & Co. on the 6th floor

12:34– 12:35: Lillian Mooneyham sees man standing behind boxes on 6th floor of TSBD.

12:34– 12:36: Officer Mooney arrives for first quick survey (does not go to "sniper lair") of 6th floor, sees no one, then goes up to 7th floor.

12:34: Sawyer enters Front of TSBD, enters Passenger elevator; runs into "this Man"; goes up to 4thfloor*

Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most."

he goes up with two officers and comes down alone....

Goes behind TSBD: Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time I talked to the colored male (negro) who was standing at the door and asked him how long he had been there, and he said he had been there some 5 minutes or so. And I asked him if anyone had came out that door, and he said that they had not.

12:35: Baker and Truly are on roof of TSBD

12:35: Harkness arrives at rear (North Loading dock) door of TSBD. Sees "SS Agents".

12:36: Euins tells Officer Harkness shots came from 5th floor TSBD

12:37: Sawyer returns to 1st floor, goes out in front to set up Command Post.

Undetermined time: Mooney, Vickery, and Webster leave 7th floor, go down to 6th floor; Mooney discovers SE window box configuration, empty shells, chicken bones and soda. Shortly before 1:00 (?), Mooney Leans out window and Signals Fritz.

12:43-12:45: Description of suspect broadcast by DPD: w/m, 30, 5'10, 165, 30-30 Winchester Rifle

12:44: Roger Craig hears whistle. Sees Nash Rambler Station Wagon stop; sees w/m, 140-150, brown hair, in his 20's, white T shirt runs down slope and gets inside. Craig runs over to the Command Post in front of the TSBD entrance and encounters a SS Agent ("40 years old, sandy-haired with a distinct cleft in his chin. He was well-dressed in a gray business suit")

Undetermined time: Fritz arrives at TSBD (sometime before 1:00 ?)

12:51:

"Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been more than 20 or 25 minutes at the very most.[/b]

Mr. STERN - Then you arrived at the Book Depository Building, and did you see any police officers outside the building?

Mr. SORRELS - Yes; there were officers. I recall seeing officers. I could not say any specific one.

Now, as I came into the back of the building, there was a colored man standing on the rear platform, a loading platform. And he was just standing there looking off into the distance. I don't think he knew what happened.

And I said to him, ""Did you see anyone run out the back?""

He said, ""No, sir.""

""Did you see anyone leave the back way?""

""No, sir.""

Mr. STERN - Did you get his name?

Mr. SORRELS - No, sir; I did not. I did not stop to do that, because I figured he was an employee of the building.

Enters TSBD from rear and is directed to Truly"

Truly's timeline from Lumpkin to Fritz is VERY interesting... check Truly's testimony for WHEN he tells Fritz and what is occurring

btw - I created a spreadsheet - time across the top, people along the side... filling in the boxes as to what happens when so we can trace a person OR time and see all that happens... Need some serious time to fill in the boxes with what's already known... labor of love yet nowhere near complete

This is great stuff... thanks Richard

DJ

1:22: Boone and Weitzman discover Rifle between boxes

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My comments in blue

David, ( and Tommy, Bill and anyone else who is interested)

I have put together a rough draft of a timeline of persons of interest in the TSBD just before and after the shots were fired. I am posting it here in the hopes of getting additional info from members who may be able to fill in some of the blanks, or make corrections. Ideally, I would like to be able to list and time-stamp witness sightings of unidentified (or known) persons who may have been involved in the plot.

Rough draft below. (*Note: I am aware of some of the conflicting statements)

Timeline:

12:00: Eddie Piper sees Oswald on the 1st floor of the TSBD.

12:05 –12:10: Bonnie Ray Williams goes to 6th floor to eat lunch (sees and hears no one) (?)(2)

12:12: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in hallway between front door and double doors a few minutes

before 12:15 (?)

12:15– 12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald in the 1st floor Lunch Room

12:15: Arnold Rowland sees man with Rifle on 6th floor (slender, dark hair, light shirt open at neck; other man was dark) Which window? At the far other end of the building from "LHO's so-called Sniper's Nest?

12:15– 12:20: BRW takes elevator from 6th to 5th floor leaving partially eaten chicken behind (?) (sees and hears no one)

12:18: Howard Brennan sees man on 6th floor with Rifle. (w/m, early 30's, slender, 165-75,light clothing) Which window? "LHO's" so-called Sniper's Nest?

12:25: Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald on 1st floor near front of TSBD (? conflict w 12:12 sighting)

Was this from Summers' interview... cause I've read where 12:25 was related to Arnold... yet I think that Reid was a much more likely candidate to have seen Oswald on the 2nd floor when she left to go outside...

12:26- 12:30: Ruby Henderson sees two men on 6th/ or Top floor. One dark (Mexican or Negro), and was wearing a white shirt. The other man was the taller and lighter of the two

12:28: Richard Carr sees heavy set man, w hat, glasses, tan sport coat in 2ndwindow from East corner, 7th floor. (1)

12:29: Carolyn Walther sees two men w/ Rifle in 5th floor East corner Window. (one man wearing brown suit coat)

Geneva Hine, the only employee in the Depository’s second floor offices, observes the electrical power and telephone system go dead.

"In the motorcade’s Vice Presidential limousine, Lyndon Johnson is later described as having his

ear up against a small walkie-talkie held over the back seat, listening to the device which is turned low.

(This description comes from Sen. Ralph Yarborough who is riding with Johnson.)"

12:29 Fischer and Edwards see w/m in 6th floor east corner window

12:30: Shots fired at JFK Limo.

12:30 Amos Euins sees Black man with rifle in 6th floor corner window (later changed to white man)

12:30 Brennan sees white man w Rifle in 6th floor corner window Which corner window, East or West?

12:30: Jack Dougherty is 10 feet from West Elevator on 5th floor (within sight and sound of NW stairs); hears shot.

12:30: Dillard Picture shows Jarman, Norman and Williams in 5th floor windows. They say they run to West Window after shots. Which windows, exactly?

12:31: Vicky Adams and Sandra Styles descend the NW Rear stairs from the 4th floor to the 1st floor (see & hear no one).

12:31: Otis Williams runs up NW stairway to 4th floor (sees no one) goes back to his 2nd floor office (?) (4)

12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (accomplices? may be Shelley & Lovelady according to Adams)

12:31: Officer Barnett runs to guard back of TSBD (and Fire Escape on East Side).

12:31:30: Officer Baker and Roy Truly on 2nd floor by NW stairway; claim to see Oswald in Lunch room. (WC testimony)

12:32: HSCA analysis show boxes in 6th floor window rearranged within 2 minutes of shooting.

12:32 – 12:33 Mrs. Reid returns to her 2nd floor office. Oswald calmly walks by her with coke in hand.

12:32– 12:36: Carr sees the same man he previously saw in the window, walk away from the TSBD and get into a Rambler Station Wagon Walk away from a back TSBD door?

12:32– 12:33: Officer Baker sees man on 3rd or 4th floor, w/m, 30 yrs old, 5'9, 165 lb, dark hair, light brown jacket. Manager vouches for this man and Baker lets him go. (Baker 11/22/63 affidavit)

12:33: Officer Barnett moves from Back to guard Front entrance of TSBD

12:33 James Worrell see a man in a dark sportcoat and light colored pants dash out of the back of the TSBD about 3 minutes after shots fired at motorcade. Man was late 20's /early 30's, 5'8", dark brown hair. Ran South on Houston.

12:33– 12:34: Dougherty takes West Elevator down to 1st floor. (?) Talks to Givens.

12:33– 12:34: Baker and Truly on 5thfloor, spot East Elevator, but West elevator is missing

12:33– 12:36: Officers Mooney, Vickery and Webster arrive at 1st floor rear elevator. Before entering the TSBD, Mooney told a "citizen" to guard the big back gates, which he apparently did. Vickery & Webster take stairs up. On the first floor, two women (Victoria Adams and a coworker?) rush up to Mooney as he's getting on the elevator and ask him to take them up to the second floor. Mooney takes himself and the two women, in the elevator up to 2nd floor, Mooney and the two women enter an office and he takes a quick look around and then goes back to the elevator to continue going to the upper floors. The elevator doesn't work now because the power is off. He switches to the stairs and encounters "two men he believes to be officers" in plain clothes coming down the stairs. He passes these men and continues up. TWO men?

12:33– 12:36: In his report of 11/23/63, Det. Harry Weatherford claims that he, Mooney, Boone, Walters, and Webster all went into the rear of the TSBD together and ascend the stairs. Mooney said he ascended the stairs alone. Weatherford goes out the window to search the roof of the loading dock, then comes back in and searches the first floor [sic] with an "unknown DPD Detective"(?) Then he goes to the top floor and eventually joins Mooney & Co. on the 6th floor. Mooney said he ascended the stairs from the 2nd floor to the 6th floor, briefly looked around the 6th floor, then ascended the stairs to the 7th floor where he encountered plainclothes sheriff's deputies Webster and Vickery. They start searching a dark

12:34– 12:35: Lillian Mooneyham sees man standing behind boxes on 6th floor of TSBD. Do we know which window?

12:34– 12:36: Officer Mooney arrives for first quick survey (does not go to "sniper lair") of 6th floor, sees no one, then goes up to 7th floor.

12:34: Sawyer enters Front of TSBD, enters Passenger elevator; runs into "this Man"; goes up to 4thfloor*

Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most."

he goes up with two officers and comes down alone....

Goes behind TSBD: Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time I talked to the colored male (negro) who was standing at the door and asked him how long he had been there, and he said he had been there some 5 minutes or so. And I asked him if anyone had came out that door, and he said that they had not. Could this "colored male" be the same "citizen" Mooney asked/told to guard the big back double "gates", according to his Warren Commission testimony?

12:35: Baker and Truly are on roof of TSBD

12:35: Harkness arrives at rear (North Loading dock) door of TSBD. Sees "SS Agents".

12:36: Euins tells Officer Harkness shots came from 5th floor TSBD

12:37: Sawyer returns to 1st floor, goes out in front to set up Command Post.

Undetermined time: Mooney, Vickery, and Webster leave 7th floor, go down to 6th floor; Mooney discovers SE window box configuration, empty shells, chicken bones and soda. Shortly before 1:00 (?), Mooney Leans out window and Signals Fritz. Was the "soda" a Dr Pepper?

12:43-12:45: Description of suspect broadcast by DPD: w/m, 30, 5'10, 165, 30-30 Winchester Rifle

12:44: Roger Craig hears whistle. Sees Nash Rambler Station Wagon stop; sees w/m, 140-150, brown hair, in his 20's, white T shirt runs down slope and gets inside. Craig runs over to the Command Post in front of the TSBD entrance and encounters a SS Agent ("40 years old, sandy-haired with a distinct cleft in his chin. He was well-dressed in a gray business suit")

Undetermined time: Fritz arrives at TSBD (sometime before 1:00 ?)

12:51:

"Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been more than 20 or 25 minutes at the very most.[/b]

Mr. STERN - Then you arrived at the Book Depository Building, and did you see any police officers outside the building?

Mr. SORRELS - Yes; there were officers. I recall seeing officers. I could not say any specific one.

Now, as I came into the back of the building, there was a colored man standing on the rear platform, a loading platform. And he was just standing there looking off into the distance. I don't think he knew what happened.

And I said to him, ""Did you see anyone run out the back?""

He said, ""No, sir.""

""Did you see anyone leave the back way?""

""No, sir.""

Mr. STERN - Did you get his name?

Mr. SORRELS - No, sir; I did not. I did not stop to do that, because I figured he was an employee of the building. Could this "colored man" be the same black guy Haygood had earlier encountered at the rear of the TSBD?

Enters TSBD from rear and is directed to Truly"

Truly's timeline from Lumpkin to Fritz is VERY interesting... check Truly's testimony for WHEN he tells Fritz and what is occurring

btw - I created a spreadsheet - time across the top, people along the side... filling in the boxes as to what happens when so we can trace a person OR time and see all that happens... Need some serious time to fill in the boxes with what's already known... labor of love yet nowhere near complete

This is great stuff... thanks Richard

DJ

1:22: Boone and Weitzman discover Rifle between boxes

I TRIED to hilight my comments and questions in green. Sorry if I've messed up your comments, questions, colors, guys!

--Tommy :)

Edited by Thomas Graves

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[...]

It would be totally cool if someone would come up with a program that allows us to merge all of these chronologies together, though keeping their integrity, possibly by using a different color or font for each one.

[...]

I think it's a pretty good idea, Bill, as long as we limit it to the TSBD and its immediate environs, you know, like the big double outside "gates" at the back of the building which Mooney told an unknown Johnny On The Spot "citizen" to guard.

--Tommy :)

P.S. Bill, how many of the "two or three" guys Mooney passed on the stairs do you think were wearing "plainclothes"? One of them? All two of them" All three of them? Thanks!

I don't know and I'm not going to speculate.

Didn't Mooney talk about this later on and give more details?

It's his opinion that matters, not mine.

BK

JFKcountercoup

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[...]

It would be totally cool if someone would come up with a program that allows us to merge all of these chronologies together, though keeping their integrity, possibly by using a different color or font for each one.

[...]

I think it's a pretty good idea, Bill, as long as we limit it to the TSBD and its immediate environs, you know, like the big double outside "gates" at the back of the building which Mooney told an unknown Johnny On The Spot "citizen" to guard.

--Tommy :)

P.S. Bill, how many of the "two or three" guys Mooney passed on the stairs do you think were wearing "plainclothes"? One of them? All two of them" All three of them? Thanks!

I don't know and I'm not going to speculate.

Didn't Mooney talk about this later on and give more details?

It's his opinion that matters, not mine.

BK

JFKcountercoup

Bill,

I just now found your earlier post explaining all this. Sorry for all the "harassment"!

--Tommy :)

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Baker is first cop to go up the back steps with Truly and runs into Oswald in second floor lunchroom and Brown Jacket Man on Sixth Floor, who Truly identifies as an employee.

When Mooney goes up he runs into two or three Sheriff's officers coming down - one a plain clothes man - which means he was a detective or undercover guy, of which there were only a few.

Who were the cops coming down the steps when Mooney was going up?

BK

JFKcountercoup

Bill,

I want you to know that I consider you to be a terrific researcher. However, I would like to ask you a couple of questions:

1) Of the "two or three men" that Mooney passed on the stairs, why do you say that only one of them was dressed in "plainclothes"? Mooney suggests that all of them were "plainclothes".

2) How did you arrive at "two or three" guys? Mooney said "some".

I wonder if deputy sheriffs Vickery and Webster had been any other floors when Mooney ran into them on the seventh? I also wonder who the "citizen" was whom Mooney asked to guard the big gates at the rear of the building. Evidently the guy was already there when Mooney arrived. (I'm thinking it might have been a case of having the fox guard the chicken house.) What do you think, Bill?

FROM LUKE MOONEY'S WARREN COMMISSION TESTIMONY:

[...]

Mr. BALL - Where did you go?

Mr. MOONEY - Mr. Webster and Mr. Vickery were there with me at the time that we received these orders from another deputy.

Mr. BALL - They are deputy sheriffs?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir; they were plainclothes officers like myself, work in the same department, and we run right over to the building then, which we were only 150, 200 feet back--I assume it is that distance I haven't measured it. It didn't take us but a few seconds to get there. When we hit the rear part, these big iron gates, they have cyclone fencing on them--this used to be an old grocery store warehouse--Sachs & Co., I believe is correct. And I says let's get these doors closed to block off this rear entrance.

Mr. BALL - Were the doors open?

Mr. MOONEY - They were wide open, the big gates. So I grabbed one, and we swung them to, and there was a citizen there, and I put him on orders to keep them shut, because I don't recall whether there was a lock on them or not. Didn't want to lock them because you never know what might happen.

So he stood guard, I assume, until a uniformed officer took over.

We shut the back door--there was a back door on a little dock. And then we went in through the docks, through the rear entrance.

Officer Vickery and Webster said, "We will take the staircase there in the corner.

I said, "I will go up the freight elevator." I noticed there was a big elevator there. So I jumped on it. And about that time two women come running and said, "we want to go to the second floor."

I said, "All right, get on, we are going."

Mr. BALL - Which elevator did you get on?

Mr. MOONEY - It was the one nearest to the staircase, on the northwest corner of the building.

Mr. BALL - There are two elevators there?

Mr. MOONEY - I found that out later. I didn't know it at that time.

Mr. BALL - You took the west one, or the east one?

Mr. MOONEY - I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the staircase.

Mr. BALL - Did it work with a push button?

Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.

Mr. BALL - You were alone?

Mr. MOONEY - I was alone at that time.

Mr. BALL - Was there any reason for you to go to the sixth floor?

Mr. MOONEY - No, sir. That is what I say. I don't know why. I just stopped on that particular floor. I thought I was pretty close to the top.

Mr. BALL - Were there any other officers on the floor?

Mr. MOONEY - I didn't see any at that time. I assume there had been other officers up there. But I didn't see them. And I begin criss-crossing it, round and round, through boxes, looking at open windows---some of them were open over on the south side. And I believe they had started laying some flooring up there.

I was checking the fire escapes. And criss-crossing back and forth. And then I decided--I saw there was another floor. And I said I would go up. So I went on up to the seventh floor. I approached Officers Webster and Vickery. They were up there in this little old stairway there that leads up into the attic. So we climbed up in there and looked around right quick.

[...]

--Tommy :)

edited, expanded, bumped

Tommy Terriffic,

You are correct, and I am guilty of sloppy wording, as I had read Mooney's testimony years ago and wondered who those guys were coming down the stairs and just wrote what I thought I remembered, and you are certainly more specific and correct.

I also think that Mooney was a Sheriff's deputy, and was standing outside the sheriff's office when the motorcade went by, standing with many other sherriff's office workers who were ordered to stand down on security, if I remember correctly. So how would he not be able to recognize and name his co-workers, or stop them and ask them a question?

And in saying they were plain clothes, that probably means not uniformed and not undercover - they were probably in suits and ties, and not like the guy standing among the homicide cops and boxes on the sixth floor.

Also Tommy, do you live in Rep. Darrell Issa's district north of San Diego ("where they play guitars all night and all day," as Bruce the Boss would say)?

BK

Bill,

This is your post which I hadn't read until about ten minutes ago. Sorry!

As regards how deputy sheriff Mooney could possibly not recognize a couple of other Dallas County deputy sheriffs, the only thing I can think of is 1) maybe the sheriff's department was really, really big, and 2) maybe the fact that Mooney was usually in his office processing writs and such would explain how he couldn't recognize some other street-type deputy sheriffs, if indeed that's what the "two or three" guys who passed him on the stairs were.

--Tommy :)

P.S. Issa represents the 49th District which is many miles north of La Jolla. Camp Pendleton, where LHO was stationed/trained for a while, is in the 49th Congressional District. Oceanside (pop. 183,000) is the biggest city in the District and is very near Camp Pendleton. Lots of conservative Marines and ex-Marines and Navy live there.

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Thanks everyone for your thoughts and analysis. This has been fascinating reading, especially the timeline.

Look forward to learning more!

-Chris

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My comments in blue

...

12:51:

"Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been more than 20 or 25 minutes at the very most.[/b]

Mr. STERN - Then you arrived at the Book Depository Building, and did you see any police officers outside the building?

Mr. SORRELS - Yes; there were officers. I recall seeing officers. I could not say any specific one.

Now, as I came into the back of the building, there was a colored man standing on the rear platform, a loading platform. And he was just standing there looking off into the distance. I don't think he knew what happened.

And I said to him, ""Did you see anyone run out the back?""

He said, ""No, sir.""

""Did you see anyone leave the back way?""

""No, sir.""

Mr. STERN - Did you get his name?

Mr. SORRELS - No, sir; I did not. I did not stop to do that, because I figured he was an employee of the building.

Enters TSBD from rear and is directed to Truly"

Truly's timeline from Lumpkin to Fritz is VERY interesting... check Truly's testimony for WHEN he tells Fritz and what is occurring

btw - I created a spreadsheet - time across the top, people along the side... filling in the boxes as to what happens when so we can trace a person OR time and see all that happens... Need some serious time to fill in the boxes with what's already known... labor of love yet nowhere near complete

This is great stuff... thanks Richard

DJ

...

David and Tommy,

Will be updating the Timeline as I go through your suggestions and additions. Keep it coming. I have also found some additional interesting sources. I am trying to get an updated timeline as my available time permits. Next version will hopefully have references attached.

David: it sounds like your Spreadsheet project is very close to what we are looking at on the timeline.

Bill: You said, "It would be totally cool if someone would come up with a program that allows us to merge all of these chronologies together, though keeping their integrity, possibly by using a different color or font for each one."

That would be an incredible tool, and it is exactly what digital databases are designed to do. I know that everything involved in this Timeline (for example) has been researched and discussed by many others over the years. There are volumes of data out there. The task would be to funnel all the good stuff into a central repository. One of the problems is that so much of the resource data is in PDF format. That adds an additional layer of complexity in translating the pdf data into a text format that would importable into a database. Lots of manual work if you know of a dedicated group of people with sufficient time available.

smile.gif

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