Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Thanks Tommy, that answers a lot - Lovelady and Shelley walk/run west on Elm, turn around to see Baker run to the front steps, then go to the end of Elm - just past the end of the TSBD building, stop at the first track, which if you look at the aerial photo Tommy posted, is right there at the end of Elm alley, and then they walk to the loading dock and enter the building through the west side door - and see the lady - Vickie Adams.

Lovelady then asks somebody what time is it?

How come they didn't ask him what time it was? What time was it?

It had to be something like 12:3? something.

And by then Baker and Truly were on the way up, right?

Would you please show me, in either Lovelady's or Shelley's testimony, where it is claimed they saw Victoria Adams anywhere on the 1st floor, immediately after they re-entered the TSBD?

[William Kelly]

Thanks Tommy, that answers a lot - Lovelady and Shelley walk/run west on Elm, turn around to see Baker run to the front steps, then go to the end of Elm - just past the end of the TSBD building, stop at the first track, which if you look at the aerial photo Tommy posted, is right there at the end of Elm alley, and then they walk to the loading dock and enter the building through the west side door - and see the lady - Vickie Adams.

Lovelady then asks somebody what time is it?

How come they didn't ask him what time it was? What time was it?

It had to be something like 12:3? something.

And by then Baker and Truly were on the way up, right?

Would you please show me, in either Lovelady's or Shelley's testimony, where it is claimed they saw Victoria Adams anywhere on the 1st floor, immediately after they re-entered the TSBD?

Okay, they don't see Victoria Adams. They leave the front steps, run-walk to the end of Elm, walk to the back by way of the first rail road track and enter the west side door, and see Eddie Piper but not Victoria Adams. Adams says she too went out to the tracks and was ordered back into the building by a cop.

Shelley told the WC that when he reentered the TSBD from the west side door, he asked somebody (Piper?) what time it was, and the next question should have been - what time was it? -

Then he discussed whether there would be any more work that day - which is what Oswald said he hear Shelly talking about when he wandered off. The Warren Report says that Oswald claimed he heard Shelley say this "out front" but it is now apparent that this conversation took place in the rear of the TSBD, and if Frazier is correct in his having seen Oswald walk up Houston street, he must have exited the back, not the front.

What time was it when Shelley asked for the time?

[Thomas Graves]

Thanks Tommy, that answers a lot - Lovelady and Shelley walk/run west on Elm, turn around to see Baker run to the front steps, then go to the end of Elm - just past the end of the TSBD building, stop at the first track, which if you look at the aerial photo Tommy posted, is right there at the end of Elm alley, and then they walk to the loading dock and enter the building through the west side door - and see the lady - Vickie Adams.

Lovelady then asks somebody what time is it?

How come they didn't ask him what time it was? What time was it?

It had to be something like 12:3? something.

And by then Baker and Truly were on the way up, right?

Would you please show me, in either Lovelady's or Shelley's testimony, where it is claimed they saw Victoria Adams anywhere on the 1st floor, immediately after they re-entered the TSBD?

Okay, they don't see Victoria Adams. They leave the front steps, run-walk to the end of Elm, walk to the back by way of the first rail road track and enter the west side door, and see Eddie Piper but not Victoria Adams. Adams says she too went out to the tracks and was ordered back into the building by a cop.

Shelley told the WC that when he reentered the TSBD from the west side door, he asked somebody (Piper?) what time it was, and the next question should have been - what time was it? -

Then he discussed whether there would be any more work that day - which is what Oswald said he hear Shelly talking about when he wandered off. The Warren Report says that Oswald claimed he heard Shelley say this "out front" but it is now apparent that this conversation took place in the rear of the TSBD, and if Frazier is correct in his having seen Oswald walk up Houston street, he must have exited the back, not the front.

What time was it when Shelley asked for the time?

(emphasis added by T. Graves)

It seems strange that William Shelley, working as a supervisor at the TSBD, would ever have to ask someone what time it was.

Is looks like he's wearing a watch in these photographs. Short sleeved shirt?

--Tommy

Edited October 3, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

Thanks Tommy, that answers a lot - Lovelady and Shelley walk/run west on Elm, turn around to see Baker run to the front steps, then go to the end of Elm - just past the end of the TSBD building, stop at the first track, which if you look at the aerial photo Tommy posted, is right there at the end of Elm alley, and then they walk to the loading dock and enter the building through the west side door - and see the lady - Vickie Adams.

Lovelady then asks somebody what time is it?

How come they didn't ask him what time it was? What time was it?

It had to be something like 12:3? something.

And by then Baker and Truly were on the way up, right?

Would you please show me, in either Lovelady's or Shelley's testimony, where it is claimed they saw Victoria Adams anywhere on the 1st floor, immediately after they re-entered the TSBD?

Okay, they don't see Victoria Adams. They leave the front steps, run-walk to the end of Elm, walk to the back by way of the first rail road track and enter the west side door, and see Eddie Piper but not Victoria Adams. Adams says she too went out to the tracks and was ordered back into the building by a cop.

Shelley told the WC that when he reentered the TSBD from the west side door, he asked somebody (Piper?) what time it was, and the next question should have been - what time was it? -

Then he discussed whether there would be any more work that day - which is what Oswald said he hear Shelly talking about when he wandered off. The Warren Report says that Oswald claimed he heard Shelley say this "out front" but it is now apparent that this conversation took place in the rear of the TSBD, and if Frazier is correct in his having seen Oswald walk up Houston street, he must have exited the back, not the front.

What time was it when Shelley asked for the time?

I think we have pretty well established that it would have been impossible for Truly to give Bill Shelley an order to guard the elevators BEFORE Truly and Baker made their ascent up the stairs, for the simple fact that Truly/Baker had a far shorter distance to cover diagonally across the TSBD than Shelley/Lovelady did walking down to the parking lot and returning to the TSBD at the loading dock at the NW corner of the building. In other words, Truly/Baker were well on their way up the stairs before Shelley/Lovelady made it back inside the building.

What is really puzzling is this excerpt from the Warren Commission testimony of Victoria Adams:

"Mr. BELIN - When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?

Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Who did you see?

Miss ADAMS - Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.

Mr. BELIN - Where did you see them on the first floor?

Miss ADAMS - Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.

Mr. BELIN - You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?

Miss ADAMS - That's correct.

Mr. BELIN - It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that correct?

Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir."

According to Miss Adams, her and Sandra Styles began their descent from the 4th floor IMMEDIATELY after seeing Clint Hill climb onto the back of the limo. Considering the short distance to the 1st floor, she would have been at the 1st floor elevators at a time when Shelley/Lovelady were still walking down Elm St. to the parking lot. As I stated earlier, this is supported in the Stroud letter (02/06/64) in which Dallas US Attorney Marcia Joe Stroud tells WC Chief Counsel J. Lee Rankin:

“Miss Garner, Miss Adams’ supervisor, stated this morning that after Miss Adams went downstairs she (Miss Garner) saw Mr. Truly and the policeman come up.”

Sandra Styles was interviewed by researcher Barry Ernest post 2002 and she also confirmed Miss Adams' testimony concerning their rapid descent to the 1st floor following the last shot. However, she contradicts Miss Adams' by telling Mr. Ernest that she did NOT see Shelley/Lovelady at the 1st floor elevators.

Unfortunately, neither Garner nor Styles was asked to testify before the WC.

Considering everything we have, it seems highly probable that Miss Adams' testimony was altered by the Warren Commission to have her state that she saw Shelley/Lovelady at the elevators on the 1st floor when she arrived there from the 4th floor.

Further proof of alteration can be seen at the end of Miss Adams' testimony:

"Mr. BELIN - Miss ADAMS, you have the opportunity if you would like, to read this deposition and sign it before it goes to Washington, or you can waive the signing of it and just let the court reporter send it directly to us. Do you have any preference?

Miss ADAMS - I think I will let you use your own discretion.

Mr. BELIN - It doesn't make any difference to us. If it doesn't make any difference, we can waive it and you won't have to make another trip down here.

Miss ADAMS - That is all right.

Mr. BELIN - We want to thank you for your, cooperation. We know that it has taken time on your part. Would you also thank your employer?

Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir."

If Miss Adams waived the right to read her deposition and sign it, how can the Stroud letter, containing the corrections Miss Adams wished to be made in her deposition, be explained?

P.S. Miss Adams also told Ernest that she did not see Shelley/Lovelady on the 1st floor following her descent. She also denied waiving her right to go over her deposition prior to signing it.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme

[Chris Newton]

Would you please show me, in either Lovelady's or Shelley's testimony, where it is claimed they saw Victoria Adams anywhere on the 1st floor, immediately after they re-entered the TSBD?

Robert,

I thought Lovelady's testimony had been pretty much gone over with the proverbial "fine tooth comb". The fact that Lovelady brings up "Vickie" after the vaguest possible question from Ball reeks of "coaching". The "coaching" by lawyers (and prosecutors) of witnesses and "experts" is such a common practice that opposing lawyers will frequently ask deponents questions at length in the beginning of their testimonies to try to determine to what extent these sessions have gone. I have personally witnessed many "coaching" sessions. Keep in mind that in these recorded testimonies there is no opposing counsel so when the attorney wants to steer clear of a subject or ignore something that isn't part of the "agenda", it's quite easy to do so.

[Thomas Graves]

Thanks Tommy, that answers a lot - Lovelady and Shelley walk/run west on Elm, turn around to see Baker run to the front steps, then go to the end of Elm - just past the end of the TSBD building, stop at the first track, which if you look at the aerial photo Tommy posted, is right there at the end of Elm alley, and then they walk to the loading dock and enter the building through the west side door - and see the lady - Vickie Adams.

Lovelady then asks somebody what time is it?

How come they didn't ask him what time it was? What time was it?

It had to be something like 12:3? something.

And by then Baker and Truly were on the way up, right?

Would you please show me, in either Lovelady's or Shelley's testimony, where it is claimed they saw Victoria Adams anywhere on the 1st floor, immediately after they re-entered the TSBD?

Okay, they don't see Victoria Adams. They leave the front steps, run-walk to the end of Elm, walk to the back by way of the first rail road track and enter the west side door, and see Eddie Piper but not Victoria Adams. Adams says she too went out to the tracks and was ordered back into the building by a cop.

Shelley told the WC that when he reentered the TSBD from the west side door, he asked somebody (Piper?) what time it was, and the next question should have been - what time was it? -

Then he discussed whether there would be any more work that day - which is what Oswald said he hear Shelly talking about when he wandered off. The Warren Report says that Oswald claimed he heard Shelley say this "out front" but it is now apparent that this conversation took place in the rear of the TSBD, and if Frazier is correct in his having seen Oswald walk up Houston street, he must have exited the back, not the front.

What time was it when Shelley asked for the time?

(emphasis added by T. Graves)

It seems strange that William Shelley, working as a supervisor at the TSBD, would ever have to ask someone what time it was.

It looks like he's wearing a watch in these photographs. Short sleeved shirt?

Speaking of Eddie Piper,

Mr Ball; What did you and Billy Lovelady do?

Mr. Shelley: We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.

Mr. Ball: At the west end?

Mr. Shelley: Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.

Mr. Ball: When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?

Mr. Shelley: I saw Eddie Piper.

Mr. Ball: What was he doing?

Mr. Shelley: He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.

--Tommy

Given the fact that Shelley had just reentered the building, how did he know that "Piper had been watching the motorcade from the southwest corner of the shipping room?"

expanded and bumped

Edited October 3, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Richard Hocking]

In the opening post of this thread, Bill Kelly linked a video with a figure later nicknamed "college guy"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDccfK-RRE&feature=player_detailpage

going through the Cook / Cooper film, I noticed this guy:

He is just walking away from the Entrance Steps to the TSBD. Close resemblance to college guy.

The Youtube link to the Cook Cooper Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kaVM2-9f3Q&feature=player_detailpage

He appears briefly at around the 1:46 mark.

If it's the same guy, we should be able to get a relative Time Stamp for the unidentified video that Bill Kelly posted.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Richard Hocking

[William Kelly]

In the opening post of this thread, Bill Kelly linked a video with a figure later nicknamed "college guy"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDccfK-RRE&feature=player_detailpage

going through the Cook / Cooper film, I noticed this guy:

Cook_frame_0011-CollegeGuy-.gif

He is just walking away from the Entrance Steps to the TSBD. Close resemblance to college guy.

The Youtube link to the Cook Cooper Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kaVM2-9f3Q&feature=player_detailpage

He appears briefly at around the 1:46 mark.

If it's the same guy, we should be able to get a relative Time Stamp for the unidentified video that Bill Kelly posted.

That's a great find Richard. Does anybody recognize him?

[Thomas Graves]

In the opening post of this thread, Bill Kelly linked a video with a figure later nicknamed "college guy"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDccfK-RRE&feature=player_detailpage

going through the Cook / Cooper film, I noticed this guy:

Cook_frame_0011-CollegeGuy-.gif

He is just walking away from the Entrance Steps to the TSBD. Close resemblance to college guy.

The Youtube link to the Cook Cooper Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kaVM2-9f3Q&feature=player_detailpage

He appears briefly at around the 1:46 mark.

If it's the same guy, we should be able to get a relative Time Stamp for the unidentified video that Bill Kelly posted.

Nice catch, Richard.

I think "College Boy" can also be seen very briefly a little bit later, at 2:21 in the same Cook-Cooper Video. He's standing in the street at the far right of the frame, in the background, not far from the three-wheeler motorcycle. I think the tall blond woman so prominent at 1:47 is also visible to the left, behind the police car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kaVM2-9f3Q&feature=player_detailpage

--Tommy

Edited October 4, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Chris Newton]

If Miss Adams waived the right to read her deposition and sign it, how can the Stroud letter, containing the corrections Miss Adams wished to be made in her deposition, be explained?

...because Ms. Adams naively thought that everyone was out to do "the right thing" when she gave her testimony, just as most people are when put in that position. There are many witnesses that have stated that their testimonies were altered. I remember reading that she was surprised to read her testimony years later when she found it in a library copy of the WC Report.

The way it works when there is no "funny business" afoot is when you request to "read" (the question is normally "read or waive" these days) then a copy of the transcript is sent to your lawyer by the court reporting agency and you are charged a fee which is usually substantial - this is how legal transcriptionists get paid.

Asking to "read" may have been academic anyways if the powers that be were intent on altering it. They could have easily done so after the transcript was delivered. It's one of the reasons that most depositions today have a court reporter and a videographer.

[Richard Hocking]

In the opening post of this thread, Bill Kelly linked a video with a figure later nicknamed "college guy"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDccfK-RRE&feature=player_detailpage

going through the Cook / Cooper film, I noticed this guy:

Cook_frame_0011-CollegeGuy-.gif

He is just walking away from the Entrance Steps to the TSBD. Close resemblance to college guy.

The Youtube link to the Cook Cooper Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kaVM2-9f3Q&feature=player_detailpage

He appears briefly at around the 1:46 mark.

If it's the same guy, we should be able to get a relative Time Stamp for the unidentified video that Bill Kelly posted.

That's a great find Richard. Does anybody recognize him?

He shows up again in Skaggs #12 in front of the West Entrance column, behind the car.

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=24&pos=3

[Richard Hocking]

In the opening post of this thread, Bill Kelly linked a video with a figure later nicknamed "college guy"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDccfK-RRE&feature=player_detailpage

going through the Cook / Cooper film, I noticed this guy:

Cook_frame_0011-CollegeGuy-.gif

He is just walking away from the Entrance Steps to the TSBD. Close resemblance to college guy.

The Youtube link to the Cook Cooper Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kaVM2-9f3Q&feature=player_detailpage

He appears briefly at around the 1:46 mark.

If it's the same guy, we should be able to get a relative Time Stamp for the unidentified video that Bill Kelly posted.

Nice catch, Richard.

I think "College Boy" can also be seen very briefly a little bit later, at 2:21 in the same Cook-Cooper Video. He's standing in the street at the far right of the frame, in the background, not far from the three-wheeler motorcycle. I think the tall blond woman so prominent at 1:47 is also visible to the left, behind the police car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kaVM2-9f3Q&feature=player_detailpage

--Tommy

The tall blond woman bears a resemblance to the tall woman standing behind the Truly and Reid figures in the Weigman frame posted by Bjørn Gjerde in Post #872 of this thread.

Also in the Skaggs #12 photo, note the two black men standing on the steps. The one on the left I believe to be Roy Edward Lewis.

Could the black man next to him be Carl Edward Jones? OTOH his short stature brings to mind the reference from Fritz about Oswald eating lunch with "Junior" and a short black man whose name he could not recall.

http://www.jfkassass...?album=24&pos=3

[Richard Hocking]

Duncan, Is your Lewis suggestion based on physical resemblance, or do you have any information on Ron Lewis being in Dallas on 11/22/63?

Edit: one additional thought. If we know Ron Lewis' height, it could be used as a another factor to consider in the ID of college boy. Perhaps someone with a New Orleans focus might be able to chip in on this.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Richard Hocking

[Richard Hocking]

....

The tall blond woman bears a resemblance to the tall woman standing behind the Truly and Reid figures in the Weigman frame posted by Bjørn Gjerde in Post #872 of this thread.

Also in the Skaggs #12 photo, note the two black men standing on the steps. The one on the left I believe to be Roy Edward Lewis.

Could the black man next to him be Carl Edward Jones? OTOH his short stature brings to mind the reference from Fritz about Oswald eating lunch with "Junior" and a short black man whose name he could not recall.

http://www.jfkassass...?album=24&pos=3

Focusing back on the two black men on the steps in Skaggs 12, here is some WC testimony from Charles Givens (below). Givens was over on Record Street with Edward Shields when he heard the shots.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. GIVENS. Three.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you heard them?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, we broke and ran down that way, and by the time we got to the corner down there of Houston and Elm, everybody was running, going toward the underpass over there by the railroad tracks. And we asked--I asked someone some white fellow there, 'What happened ?" And he said, "Somebody shot the President." Like that. So I stood there for a while, and I went over to try to get to the building after they found out the shots came from there, and when I went over to try to get back in the officer at the door wouldn't let me in.

Mr. BELIN. Did you tell him you worked there?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes; but he still wouldn't let me in. He told me he wouldn't let no one in.

Mr. BELIN. This was the front of Elm Street?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes. So I goes back over to the parking lot and I wait until I seen Junior.

So Givens runs from Record Street over to the corner of Houston and Elm, then goes to the front entrance of the TSBD where the Officer at the door refuses to let him in.

The timing would work for him to be the short black man standing next to Roy Edward Lewis on the steps.

Earlier in his testimony, Givens references being with Junior Jarman at the start of the lunch break:

Mr. BELIN. Now what did you do when you got down there on the first floor?

Mr. GIVENS. When I got down to the first floor Harold Norman, James Jarman and myself, we stood over by the window, and then we said we was going outside and watch the parade, so we walked out and we stood there a while, and then I said, "I believe I will walk up to the parking lot."

All of this fits well with Oswald claiming he was having lunch and saw "Junior" and a short black man whose name he could not recall.

Edit: location typo

Edited October 4, 2013 by Richard Hocking

[Richard Hocking]

Skaggs 12 Cropped with photo of Charles Givens insert:

Skaggs-12-w-Givens_zps753d9083.jpg