Was Oswald an Intelligence Agent?

[Larry Hancock]

Tommy, I've posted this in other threads but it sometimes gets lost in the shuffle. The bottom line on the U2 was that the Soviets tracked it on its very first missions, and American signals intelligence was very good at monitoring Soviet communications so they actually recorded the Russian tracking messages and the dialog about the height of the U2, its flight path etc. There had been some hope the Soviet radar did not have the capability of reliably following the U2 at its operational altitude but that proved to be wrong and the US was well aware that the Soviets could track the U2, consistently launched interceptors and fired on the aircraft - unsuccessfully. Some methods were taken to reduce the U2's radar visibility but they proved relatively fruitless.

The only question was at what point the Soviets would field anti-aircraft missiles with the ability to actually hit the U2 at its operational altitudes and when the aircraft would get an assignment that would take it within range. I should also mention, given Oswald's duties on approach radar at Atsuki, he would not have been able to observe the plane on its actual mission path and most likely at its max height since that occurred well outside the range of approach control radar.

Bottom line is that the Soviets knew everything they needed to know about the U2 from its first missions. Those interested can find the research and details in two books on US surveillance aircraft by Curtis Peebles, Shadow Flights and Dark Eagles.

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy, I've posted this in other threads but it sometimes gets lost in the shuffle. The bottom line on the U2 was that the Soviets tracked it on its very first missions, and American signals intelligence was very good at monitoring Soviet communications so they actually recorded the Russian tracking messages and the dialog about the height of the U2, its flight path etc. There had been some hope the Soviet radar did not have the capability of reliably following the U2 at its operational altitude but that proved to be wrong and the US was well aware that the Soviets could track the U2, consistently launched interceptors and fired on the aircraft - unsuccessfully. Some methods were taken to reduce the U2's radar visibility but they proved relatively fruitless.

The only question was at what point the Soviets would field anti-aircraft missiles with the ability to actually hit the U2 at its operational altitudes and when the aircraft would get an assignment that would take it within range. I should also mention, given Oswald's duties on approach radar at Atsuki, he would not have been able to observe the plane on its actual mission path and most likely at its max height since that occurred well outside the range of approach control radar.

Bottom line is that the Soviets knew everything they needed to know about the U2 from its first missions. Those interested can find the research and details in two books on US surveillance aircraft by Curtis Peebles, Shadow Flights and Dark Eagles.

Larry,

So if what you say is true, do you think that would have precluded the ONI from sending Oswald to Russia as a false defector?

P. D. Scott seems to think that ONI and Marine G-2 documents suggest that the ONI and Marine Corps collaborated before Oswald applied for a "hardship discharge" (or whatever it was called -- to take care of his "injured" - at - work mother) to ensure ahead of time that he would be granted that discharge. That is, if I'm understanding what he says...

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/S%20Disk/Scott%20Peter%20Dale/Item%2002.pdf

--Tommy

Edited January 20, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Larry Hancock]

Tommy, I really don't understand what value that would be for ONI. As Jon said, ONI's intelligence collection has to do with information that benefits the Navy, Soviet naval capabilities and technology, deployments, a host of other things but none really fit with Oswald.

On the other hand, there were several CIA Soviet Intelligence desk programs going on related to using college students placed within the Soviet Union, Greg Parker had done great work and described that in some detail, I mention it in SWHT but where escapes me right at the moment. The goal there was to gain political and social open source intelligence that could best be obtained circulating inside the Soviet Union and within a student community. That would dovetail much more with Oswald's interest in overseas education and his apparent "routing" towards a college work overseas...the only thing is that of the instances Greg describes, most had to do with students attending Eastern establishment type universities where the CIA had a strong old boy network which could be used to identify candidates.

My guess is that if there was an intelligence connection it would have happened under the Soviet Desk of the CIA and not military intelligence. I do vaguely recall the PDS remarks about the discharge and some anomalies there. Its wild speculation on my part but if Oswald had become visible to the CIA as having shown an interest in the Soviets - visiting their embassy or writing them - or given his general interests in the Soviet system he might have also become visible to the CIA. In that instance someone could have come up with some ideas for using him and simply asked the Marines to facilitate making him available though an accelerated discharge. ONI might simply have been asked for observations on him or to see if there had been some "entanglement" in his Japanese tour that would bring using him in question. But that's just a wild guess. What we do know is that the CIA was not bashful about reaching out and assisting the Eastern establishment college students ....getting them into special foreign education programs, getting them grants, etc. Its a stretch but Oswald's interest in European study has a lot more anomalies in and around it than anybody pays much attention to these days. There's a very good book on that by George Michael Evica that I would highly recommend.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Larry Hancock

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy, I really don't understand what value that would be for ONI. As Jon said, ONI's intelligence collection has to do with information that benefits the Navy, Soviet naval capabilities and technology, deployments, a host of other things but none really fit with Oswald.

On the other hand, there were several CIA Soviet Intelligence desk programs going on related to using college students placed within the Soviet Union, Greg Parker had done great work and described that in some detail, I mention it in SWHT but where escapes me right at the moment. The goal there was to gain political and social open source intelligence that could best be obtained circulating inside the Soviet Union and within a student community. That would dovetail much more with Oswald's interest in overseas education and his apparent "routing" towards a college work overseas...the only thing is that of the instances Greg describes, most had to do with students attending Eastern establishment type universities where the CIA had a strong old boy network which could be used to identify candidates.

My guess is that if there was an intelligence connection it would have happened under the Soviet Desk of the CIA and not military intelligence.

Larry,

Thanks.

Question: What do you make of P.D. Scott's analysis in this essay? Specifically, his view that ONI and Marine G-2 collaborated ahead of time on Oswald's "hardship" discharge from active Marine Corp duty? Am I reading Scott correctly on that? If so, what are your thoughts on the subject?

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/S%20Disk/Scott%20Peter%20Dale/Item%2002.pdf

Thanks again,

--Tommy

Edited January 20, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Larry Hancock]

I'm afraid the honest answer is that I just don't remember it well to comment... Right off the top of my head I don't know why that would be necessary. All you need are some letters and documents relating to his mother's medical problem, some certifications such as by the Red Cross that confirm the need and its simply a Corps personnel process. If ONI would going that route I can't see why you would need "collaboration" since they would need to have the pieces in place in his personnel file for the cover story and backstop anyway? If you can give me a link to where I can look at it I'll offer an opinion but I just wouldn't feel comfortable based on my vague recollection of the issue.

[Thomas Graves]

I'm afraid the honest answer is that I just don't remember it well to comment... Right off the top of my head I don't know why that would be necessary. All you need are some letters and documents relating to his mother's medical problem, some certifications such as by the Red Cross that confirm the need and its simply a Corps personnel process. If ONI would going that route I can't see why you would need "collaboration" since they would need to have the pieces in place in his personnel file for the cover story and backstop anyway? If you can give me a link to where I can look at it I'll offer an opinion but I just wouldn't feel comfortable based on my vague recollection of the issue.

Larry,

(See page 5:)

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/S%20Disk/Scott%20Peter%20Dale/Item%2002.pdf

--Tommy

PS Of course now I'm afraid that you're going to conclude that I misinterpreted what Scott said. Which I probably did. LOL

Edited January 20, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Larry Hancock]

Tommy, I'll take a look when I get a chance....it just dawned on me there might be a very simple explanation. ONI also does very routine stuff like security clearance checks and personnel investigations. Its possible that for a hardship discharge the Corps might simply ask them to verify the hardship or the claims behind the request to make sure it was legitimate. I'll get back to this once I read the material you linked...

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy, I'll take a look when I get a chance....it just dawned on me there might be a very simple explanation. ONI also does very routine stuff like security clearance checks and personnel investigations. Its possible that for a hardship discharge the Corps might simply ask them to verify the hardship or the claims behind the request to make sure it was legitimate. I'll get back to this once I read the material you linked...

Larry,

I just looked at it again and of course I was wrong. I made the cardinal sin of "going from memory" and confused his "hardship" discharge from active duty (before his "defection") with his "undesireable" discharge from the Marine Reserves which came after his "defection".

OK, so Oswald was not sent to Russia by the ONI. Maybe by the CIA, but not by the ONI. Got it.

Sorry...

(Egg on face)

--Tommy

Edited January 20, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Larry Hancock]

No problem here Tommy, I have the same issues and really have to force myself to go back to original material before commenting.....

I do think the question of whether Oswald might have been "directed" towards a program that would have involved placing students in Russian

foreign exchange programs via college study is worth some attention - and whether Oswald might have been "re-targeted" right in the middle of

that to some outstanding issue with American's in Russia at the time. The best place to tackle all that would be a mix of Greg Parker's work,

George Micahel Evica's book and Bill Simpich's recent work.

[Thomas Graves]

No problem here Tommy, I have the same issues and really have to force myself to go back to original material before commenting.....

I do think the question of whether Oswald might have been "directed" towards a program that would have involved placing students in Russian

foreign exchange programs via college study is worth some attention - and whether Oswald might have been "re-targeted" right in the middle of

that to some outstanding issue with American's in Russia at the time. The best place to tackle all that would be a mix of Greg Parker's work,

George Micahel Evica's book and Bill Simpich's recent work.

Thanks, Larry. I feel a little bit better now.

Here's another thought: Since the Ruskies already knew all about the U2 (and the U.S. knew that the Ruskies knew), the only reason the ONI (in collaboration with the CIA and/or FBI) might have sent Oswald to Russia was to intentionally create a revocation or non-revocation of Oswald's citizenship "issue" with the State Department in a attempt to somehow smoke out suspected moles in the "Commie ridden" State Department.

Too far fetched? I suppose it is. Oh well, back to the drawing board...

--Tommy

PS Do you believe that the ONI had a false defector program in the late 1950's? CIA? Air Force? Who else, if anyone?

Do you think Robert Webster defected on his own (for the love of his Russian girlfriend)?

Edited January 20, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Larry Hancock]

That's probably a little far fetched Tommy but it is interesting that when Oswald made remarks about turning over information to the Soviets...which he did in the US embassy which we know was bugged by the Soviets...should it not have triggered some sort of serious investigation of what he might have known and be turning over. Should not State have immediately gone to the Navy/Marines/ ONI. How solid is the paper trial that they took a purported defector offering information seriously? Or were those remarks just for Soviet consumption.

Interestingly we know that in Mexico City in 1962, Richard Case Nagell went into the US embassy, stated he was renouncing his citizenship, that he had worked for military intelligence and that he planned to offer information to interested foreign nations...and their is no evidence that incident (which is documented in SWHT) triggered a security investigation either. Given the fact that Nagell had indeed held clearances and worked for CIC, it should have. So was that just part of another security test? Or was the State Department routinely and egregiously following down on its security responsibilities?

[Thomas Graves]

That's probably a little far fetched Tommy but it is interesting that when Oswald made remarks about turning over information to the Soviets...which he did in the US embassy which we know was bugged by the Soviets...should it not have triggered some sort of serious investigation of what he might have known and be turning over. Should not State have immediately gone to the Navy/Marines/ ONI. How solid is the paper trial that they took a purported defector offering information seriously? Or were those remarks just for Soviet consumption.

Interestingly we know that in Mexico City in 1962, Richard Case Nagell went into the US embassy, stated he was renouncing his citizenship, that he had worked for military intelligence and that he planned to offer information to interested foreign nations...and their is no evidence that incident (which is documented in SWHT) triggered a security investigation either. Given the fact that Nagell had indeed held clearances and worked for CIC, it should have. So was that just part of another security test? Or was the State Department routinely and egregiously following down on its security responsibilities?

Larry,

I think there are indications that at least the CIA took seriously Oswald's treat to commit espionage.

I read in Oswald and the CIA or somewhere that there were Marine Corps witnesses to the effect that there were two investigations of Oswald at El Toro right after he "defected" to Russia, a cursory "known" investigation by the ONI, probably by the retired ONI special agent from Texas whom I interviewed a few years ago in La Jolla (who told me he was, ironically, a good friend of Paul Bentley, the DPD polygraph officer who helped arrest Oswald at the theater), and a much more serious "secret" and in-depth investigation by "men in suits" (CIA?), who even brought with them a stenographer to take notes. When I asked the retired ONI special agent what kind of clothes he would have worn to his investigation of Oswald at El Toro (which he said he probably did because "he was the best investigator the ONI had"), he said "casual clothes", and when I asked him if he would have had a stenographer help him do that investigation, he said "no".

Strangely, even though he could remember, in response to my questions, how long his small WW II ship was and where he was when he heard about the attack on Pearl Harbor, for the life of him he couldn't remember where he was when he heard JFK had been shot.

He's the same guy who told me, in response to my question, that the Dallas ONI office "was in the postal building, in the building that JFK was killed from". I think he might have been hinting, inadvertently, that the assassination "command center" was in the same building that the ONI office was located in -- The Terminal Annex Building.

But I digress...

--Tommy

Edited January 20, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Jon G. Tidd]

Was Oswald an ONI agent? If he was, he would have been [a] recruited by ONI to be an agent, trained by ONI in a way specific to his mission(s), [c] debriefed periodically by ONI. Oswald also would have had some value to ONI by virtue of his access to certain persons or information in which ONI was interested.

None of this appears to me to have been the case in his "defection" to the USSR.

Maybe he was recruited by ONI and trained initially in Japan, where he visited bars in which bar girls working for communists were eliciting information from American sailors. The more likely ONI approach, however, would have been to turn one of the bar girls. The U.S. dollar worked wonders in those days.

[Larry Hancock]

In regard to Tommy's point, certainly it would be expected that when news of Oswald in Russia became widely known, the ONI would do investigations. The point I was making was whether or not the State Department had initiated any alerts or warnings about his statement about providing info to the Soviets. I they did and that paper trail exists between State and on to Navy and ONI then things are as they should be. On the other hand if that trail is not there and there is no sign of proper security reporting in pretty much real time from the State Dept to CIA Soviet Desk and to Navy/ONI, then it might suggest something more complex.

I certainly can't question Jon's point about recruiting the bar girls but its also possible that Oswald himself might have reported an approach by a bar girl and matters proceeded from there; if he was inclined to play spy then that could have been an easy start.

[Thomas Graves]

In regard to Tommy's point, certainly it would be expected that when news of Oswald in Russia became widely known, the ONI would do investigations. The point I was making was whether or not the State Department had initiated any alerts or warnings about his statement about providing info to the Soviets. I they did and that paper trail exists between State and on to Navy and ONI then things are as they should be. On the other hand if that trail is not there and there is no sign of proper security reporting in pretty much real time from the State Dept to CIA Soviet Desk and to Navy/ONI, then it might suggest something more complex.

I certainly can't question Jon's point about recruiting the bar girls but its also possible that Oswald himself might have reported an approach by a bar girl and matters proceeded from there; if he was inclined to play spy then that could have been an easy start.

Larry,

Going from memory again, but I've read that Oswald really didn't "belong" in that bar (the Queen Bee?) in the first place. It was supposedly a "classy joint" which catered to officers, not enlisted men, and would have been too expensive for him. That and the fact that he had a beautiful Japanese girlfriend (who I believe worked at the Queen Bee) and that he contracted a venereal disease "in the line of duty" in Japan suggests to me that he was performing some sort of intelligence mission at that bar, and that his "operational expenses" there were being paid for by someone else, perhaps the ONI.

I've read that at least some of the beautiful girls who worked at the Queen Bee were suspected of being KGB agents whose job it was to ply military secrets from U.S. officers who had, perhaps, imbibed just a wee bit too much liquor there and, of course, simultaneously fallen "in love" with the girls who were giving them so much "attention".

I think Oswald might have been sent to the Queen Bee by his ONI / Marine Corps superiors who realized that the girls would assume that Oswald, being just a poor enlisted man (a Private!), must himself be an intelligence agent, that they would probably try to "turn" him, and that this would afford the ONI an excellent opportunity to have Oswald feed the KGB some incorrect military information.

Just wondering: Did Oswald pretend to his Queen Bee girlfriend (who was seen with Oswald in other places than the Queen Bee) that she had effectively "turned" him?

--Tommy

Edited January 21, 2015 by Thomas Graves