Was Oswald an Intelligence Agent?

[Thomas Graves]

Thomas, the way I understand this, OSWALD was released from duty because his mother had a problem with her nose.

The discharge designation had nothing to do with his 'defection' to Russia.

Robert,

He was given a "hardship discharge" from active duty because of his mother's injury, and placed in the Marine Corps reserves.

He was still in the Marine Corps reserves when he showed up a month-and-a-half later at the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, tried to renounce his citizenship, and told the consul that he was planning to commit espionage. Some time later, the Marine Corps gave him an "undesirable discharge" from the Marine Corps reserves. The reason they gave for doing that was that (they thought, mistakenly, that) he had renounced his citizenship.

So you're partly right-- the designation "hardship discharge" [edit: "dependency leave"] was obviously not based on his "defection" because his "defection" hadn't even happened yet.

But his final "undesirable discharge", which came a lot later, was based on his "defection" in the sense that the Marine Corps claimed, albeit erroneously, that its reason for giving it to him was that he had "renounced his citizenship" in the U.S. Embassy in Moscow.

What's fascinating is that the Marine Corps (and ONI) refused to believe what the State Department kept telling them-- that Oswald hadn't renounced his citizenship. Instead they chose to believe the conclusion that Marguerite Oswald had arrived at when she misinterpreted a rather ambiguously-written newspaper article.

--Tommy

Edited January 25, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Mady]

Thomas, I did not know that, thank you for the information.

[Thomas Graves]

...P.D. Scott seems to think that ONI and Marine G-2 documents suggest that the ONI and Marine Corps collaborated before Oswald applied for a "hardship discharge" (or whatever it was called -- to take care of his "injured" - at - work mother) to ensure ahead of time that he would be granted that discharge. That is, if I'm understanding what he says...

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/S%20Disk/Scott%20Peter%20Dale/Item%2002.pdf

--Tommy

Well, Tommy, thanks for contributing this piece by Peter Dale Scott that speaks about Oswald and the alleged Russian connection.

Paul B. asked me to look at it, and I did, and I'm not moved by the arguments therein.

Like most folks here, I've examined the Oswald literature for many years -- yet I, for one, can't bring myself to believe that Oswald was a full-fledged Intelligence Officer.

Lee Harvey Oswald was a wannabe. He really, really WANTED to be a full-fledged Intelligence Officer. That appears to have been his life's dream.

Oswald made himself available to the Intelligence community at every opportunity, evidently -- and sometimes far too much -- like letting people get ahold of his birth certificate, and so on.

Oswald wanted it too much -- and that's probably the main reason he was never hired by any Intelligence Agency.

Yes -- there is plenty of evidence that Oswald was trying to break into the Intelligence business. No -- there isn't nearly enough evidence that he actually made the grade.

Yes, the CIA even thought of interviewing him at one time. No, they never hired him.

Lee Harvey Oswald lived in dire poverty -- and that was hardly a "front." The main problem with Oswald was that he was head-strong (like most men in their early 20's) and did things his own way.

I suspect that Oswald left Russia before he was advised to do so -- he had a new wife and started a family, and he never gave up his American Citizenship, and he wanted to COME HOME. He did.

Yet after he did, his Marine Discharge status was reduced. That's hardly the result of following ORDERS.

There is some evidence that Oswald didn't like being controlled so much -- he wanted more freedom. But that's too expensive for an Intelligence Officer. Oswald was ambitious -- maybe too ambitious.

The evidence shows that Oswald lived as just one more part-time "flunky" of the CIA and other Intelligence Agencies -- not unlike Gerry Patrick Hemming, Frank Sturgis, Johnny Roselli, David Ferrie and many other street people who have at some point confessed to participation in the JFK murder.

Harder evidence is what I seek -- but from Peter Dale Scott I generally find innuendo and rumors and connections as loose as so-called "deep structures". No -- I want harder evidence.

I might add here, Tommy, that I still appreciate your excellent riddle -- if Oswald was an Intelligence Agent, then how did he become a PATSY?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[emphasis added by T. Graves]

Paul,

Unfortunately you've quoted here a recent post of mine that I later told Larry Hancock I had posed in error. P.D. Scott didn't say that Marine Corps G-2 and the ONI had collaborated on Oswald's "hardship discharge" ahead of time, but that they collaborated on his final "undesirable discharge" ahead of time. I got them mixed up. But I still do highly suggest reading the P.D. Scott article Oswald, Marine Corps Intelligence, and the Assault on the State Department : http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/S%20Disk/Scott%20Peter%20Dale/Item%2002.pdf

[Edit: Actually the first "discharge" was called a "dependency release," not a "hardship discharge." See http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=327226 ]

Interestingly, the Marine Corps based its decision for the latter, (the undesireable discharge ) on bad information that Marguerite Oswald had given to FBI agent John Fain -- that, based on her interpretation of a newspaper article, Lee had renounced his citizenship (when in fact he hadn't). Then later she screwed things even more when she told Lee, who was still in Russia, that the Marine Corps had given him a "dishonorable" discharge rather than the less severe "undesirable" one they had given him!

PS The title of this thread is "Was Oswald an Intelligence Agent?", not "Was Oswald a Full-Fledged Intelligence Officer".

Do you think that most CIA agents and contract agents are "flunkies" and "street people"? I'm not asking you about officers here, but agents. Or are they "flunkies" and "street people" only in comparison to officers?

I don't know what you mean by the sentences in your post that I've highlighted in green. Please elaborate. I.e., When was the CIA thinking about hiring Oswald?, Who might have advised Oswald to stay longer in Russia?, and What makes you think Oswald wanted to be a "full-fledged Intelligence Officer" rather than a "flunky", "street person", run-of-the mill Intelligence Agent? His childhood hero, Herbert Philbrick, wasn't a FBI officer, but more like an FBI informant when he was "leading three lives".

Last but not least. For your information, Oswald was given a "reduced" undesirable discharge while he was still in Russia. Apparently the only reason the Marine Corps "reduced" it from a potential honorable one was because Marine G-2 and the ONI believed Marguerite Oswald's faulty interpretation of a newspaper article more than they believed the determinations of the (allegedly "commie ridden") State Department.

Which in my mind leaves open the possibility that Oswald was sent to Russia as an intelligence agent, and that Marine Corps gave him an undesirable discharge (which was not as bad as a dishonorable one) because it mistakenly believed Oswald had not followed the plan, but had "gone rogue" by actually renouncing his citizenship. But he hadn't.

I'm going to finish this long post with an interesting passage from P.D. Scott's article:

"It is possible, however, that the Marine Intelligence interest in Oswald dates back to before his alleged 'defection' to the Soviet Union. It has not been explained why Oswald's officer signed an affidavit in support of Oswald's passport application on September 4, 1959, or why his passport application (to visit Russia!) should refer to a Defense Card which in theory was only issued one week later.(33) MCAS El Toro approved Oswald's [dependency] release from active duty in September, on the ground that his mother in Fort Worth needed his support (WR 688-89; 19 WH 665). Yet the records suggest that the Marines knew very well that Oswald would soon leave the U.S., even while it pretended to think that he was going to work in Fort Worth.(34)"

--Tommy

Edited January 23, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Brancato]

Paul T - the part of the PDS article I thought you would find interesting was about Otepka, the far right, the Senate internal security, subcommittee, Walker, etc. These were not 'arguments' by professor Scott to be agreed or disagreed with, but statements of history and facts. Of course, this section of his article is not particularly germain to the subject of this thread.

[Jon G. Tidd]

Thomas Graves @ post #228:

I've read that Oswald objected to his reduced discharge status and made attempt to have his original discharge status restored.

Assuming all this is true, it tells me Oswald was acting on his own; and that he and Marguerite were clumsy.

No intelligence service would have constructed, or allowed to be constructed, a less than honorable discharge for one its agents. Such a discharge is a permanent stain on one's character and would have diminished not enhanced Oswald's value as an agent. It would hamper not increase his ability to gain trust. Trust is central to any intelligence function.

[Thomas Graves]

...P.D. Scott seems to think that ONI and Marine G-2 documents suggest that the ONI and Marine Corps collaborated before Oswald applied for a "hardship discharge" (or whatever it was called -- to take care of his "injured" - at - work mother) to ensure ahead of time that he would be granted that discharge. That is, if I'm understanding what he says...

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/S%20Disk/Scott%20Peter%20Dale/Item%2002.pdf

--Tommy

Well, Tommy, thanks for contributing this piece by Peter Dale Scott that speaks about Oswald and the alleged Russian connection.

Paul B. asked me to look at it, and I did, and I'm not moved by the arguments therein.

Like most folks here, I've examined the Oswald literature for many years -- yet I, for one, can't bring myself to believe that Oswald was a full-fledged Intelligence Officer.

Lee Harvey Oswald was a wannabe. He really, really WANTED to be a full-fledged Intelligence Officer. That appears to have been his life's dream.

Oswald made himself available to the Intelligence community at every opportunity, evidently -- and sometimes far too much -- like letting people get ahold of his birth certificate, and so on.

Oswald wanted it too much -- and that's probably the main reason he was never hired by any Intelligence Agency.

Yes -- there is plenty of evidence that Oswald was trying to break into the Intelligence business. No -- there isn't nearly enough evidence that he actually made the grade.

Yes, the CIA even thought of interviewing him at one time. No, they never hired him.

Lee Harvey Oswald lived in dire poverty -- and that was hardly a "front." The main problem with Oswald was that he was head-strong (like most men in their early 20's) and did things his own way.

I suspect that Oswald left Russia before he was advised to do so -- he had a new wife and started a family, and he never gave up his American Citizenship, and he wanted to COME HOME. He did.

Yet after he did, his Marine Discharge status was reduced. That's hardly the result of following ORDERS.

There is some evidence that Oswald didn't like being controlled so much -- he wanted more freedom. But that's too expensive for an Intelligence Officer. Oswald was ambitious -- maybe too ambitious.

The evidence shows that Oswald lived as just one more part-time "flunky" of the CIA and other Intelligence Agencies -- not unlike Gerry Patrick Hemming, Frank Sturgis, Johnny Roselli, David Ferrie and many other street people who have at some point confessed to participation in the JFK murder.

Harder evidence is what I seek -- but from Peter Dale Scott I generally find innuendo and rumors and connections as loose as so-called "deep structures". No -- I want harder evidence.

I might add here, Tommy, that I still appreciate your excellent riddle -- if Oswald was an Intelligence Agent, then how did he become a PATSY?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[emphasis added by T. Graves]

Paul,

Unfortunately you've quoted here a recent post of mine that I later told Larry Hancock I had posed in error. P.D. Scott didn't say that Marine Corps G-2 and the ONI had collaborated on Oswald's "hardship discharge" ahead of time, but that they collaborated on his final "undesirable discharge" ahead of time. I got them mixed up. But I still do highly suggest reading the P.D. Scott article Oswald, Marine Corps Intelligence, and the Assault on the State Department : http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/S%20Disk/Scott%20Peter%20Dale/Item%2002.pdf

[Edit: Actually the first "discharge" was called a "dependency release," not a "hardship discharge." See http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=327226 ]

Interestingly, the Marine Corps based its decision for the latter, (the undesireable discharge ) on bad information that Marguerite Oswald had given to FBI agent John Fain -- that, based on her interpretation of a newspaper article, Lee had renounced his citizenship (when in fact he hadn't). Then later she screwed things even more when she told Lee, who was still in Russia, that the Marine Corps had given him a "dishonorable" discharge rather than the less severe "undesirable" one they had given him!

Now--

I don't know what you mean by the sentences in your post that I've highlighted in green. Please elaborate. I.e., When was the CIA thinking about hiring Oswald?, Who might have advised Oswald to stay longer in Russia?, and What makes you think Oswald wanted to be a "full-fledged Intelligence Officer" rather than a "flunky", "street person", "run-of-the mill" contract agent? (His childhood hero, Herbert Philbrick, wasn't a FBI officer, but more like an FBI informant when he was "leading three lives".)

The title of this thread is "Was Oswald an Intelligence Agent?", not "Was Oswald a Full-Fledged Intelligence Officer". Do you think that most CIA agents and contract agents are "flunkies" and "street people"? I'm not asking you about officers here, but agents. Or are they "flunkies" and "street people" only in comparison to officers?

For your information, Oswald was given the above-mentioned undesirable discharge while he was still in Russia, apparently because Marine G-2 and the ONI believed Marguerite Oswald's faulty interpretation of a newspaper article more than they believed the determinations of the (allegedly "commie ridden") State Department.

Which in my mind leaves open the possibility that Oswald was sent to Russia as an intelligence agent, and that the Marine Corps gave him an undesirable discharge (which was not as bad as a dishonorable one) only because it mistakenly believed that Oswald had not followed the plan, but had "gone rogue" by actually renouncing his citizenship. But he hadn't.

I'm going to finish this long post with an interesting passage from P.D. Scott's article:

"It is possible, however, that the Marine Intelligence interest in Oswald dates back to before his alleged 'defection' to the Soviet Union. It has not been explained why Oswald's officer [1st Lieut. Ayers] signed an affidavit in support of Oswald's passport application on September 4, 1959, or why his passport application (to visit Russia!) should refer to a Defense Card which in theory was only issued one week later.(33) MCAS El Toro approved Oswald's [dependency] release from active duty in September, on the ground that his mother in Fort Worth needed his support (WR 688-89; 19 WH 665). Yet the records suggest that the Marines knew very well that Oswald would soon leave the U.S., even while it pretended to think that he was going to work in Fort Worth.(34)"

--Tommy

PS In his analysis of the issues surrounding Oswald's "Department of Defense I.D. Card" and his passport, AARB researcher Doug Horne comes to the conclusion that there was nothing necessarily sinister about the interplay of the timing involved, but does point out the interesting coincidence that the Marine Corps officer who was "in the middle of it all," 1st Lieut. Alexander C. (or G.?) Ayers, received a short-lived (two-and-one-half month) and ostensibly unnecessary security clearance of "secret" on September 11, 1959, the same day that Oswald was (honorably) discharged from active duty and placed in the Marine Corps Reserve.

Horne also points out that the affidavit attached to Oswald's passport application, which affidavit verified that Oswald was being released from active duty, was not actually signed by 1st Lieut. Ayers (whose name was typed in the signature area), but by Oswald's friend, 1st Sgt. Zack Stout, whose signature appears above Ayers' typed name. Horne theorizes that Oswald had Stout sign it because he didn't want Ayers to know he was applying for a passport and planning to travel abroad in the near future, since Lieut. Ayers already knew about his "dependency release" and alleged intention to go help his mother in Fort Worth.

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/02/Doc-0031.txt

edited and bumped

Edited January 24, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

Paul,

Unfortunately you've quoted here a recent post of mine that I later told Larry Hancock I had posed in error. P.D. Scott didn't say that Marine Corps G-2 and the ONI had collaborated on Oswald's "hardship discharge" ahead of time, but that they collaborated on his final "undesirable discharge" ahead of time. I got them mixed up. But I still do highly suggest reading the P.D. Scott article Oswald, Marine Corps Intelligence, and the Assault on the State Department : http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/S%20Disk/Scott%20Peter%20Dale/Item%2002.pdf

Interestingly, the Marine Corps based its decision for the latter, (the undesireable discharge ) on bad information that Marguerite Oswald had given to FBI agent John Fain -- that, based on her interpretation of a newspaper article, Lee had renounced his citizenship (when in fact he hadn't). Then later she screwed things even more when she told Lee, who was still in Russia, that the Marine Corps had given him a "dishonorable" discharge rather than the less severe "undesirable" one they had given him!

PS The title of this thread is "Was Oswald an Intelligence Agent?", not "Was Oswald a Full-Fledged Intelligence Officer".

Do you think that most CIA agents and contract agents are "flunkies" and "street people"? I'm not asking you about officers here, but agents. Or are they "flunkies" and "street people" only in comparison to officers?

I don't know what you mean by the sentences in your post that I've highlighted in green. Please elaborate. I.e., When was the CIA thinking about hiring Oswald?, Who might have advised Oswald to stay longer in Russia?, and What makes you think Oswald wanted to be a "full-fledged Intelligence Officer" rather than a "flunky", "street person", run-of-the mill Intelligence Agent? His childhood hero, Herbert Philbrick, wasn't a FBI officer, but more like an FBI informant when he was "leading three lives".

Last but not least. For your information, Oswald was given a "reduced" undesirable discharge while he was still in Russia. Apparently the only reason the Marine Corps "reduced" it from a potential honorable one was because Marine G-2 and the ONI believed Marguerite Oswald's faulty interpretation of a newspaper article more than they believed the determinations of the (allegedly "commie ridden") State Department.

Which in my mind leaves open the possibility that Oswald was sent to Russia as an intelligence agent, and that Marine Corps gave him an undesirable discharge (which was not as bad as a dishonorable one) because it mistakenly believed Oswald had not followed the plan, but had "gone rogue" by actually renouncing his citizenship. But he hadn't...

--Tommy

Well, Tommy, I've read that P.D. Scott article Oswald, Marine Corps Intelligence, and the Assault on the State Department: and again I find no hard evidence, but mainly innuendo in that writing.

Here's my take on it -- Lee Oswald went to the USSR on behalf of the ONI (or other Intelligence Agency, but let's say ONI for now). So, it makes sense to me that if the ONI were pleased with Oswald's handling of his sworn duties, there is no way they would have allowed the Marines to reduce his discharge status.

I sincerely doubt that Oswald's MOTHER had anything at all to do with the Marine's decision. Not at all.

The Marines didn't know what Oswald was doing in the USSR, but they trusted the ONI and related Agencies implicitly. Now, at the end of his tour, the ONI gave the Marines a mixed opinion of Oswald's performance of his duties in the USSR.

IMHO, Oswald wasn't supposed to get married, or if he did, he wasn't supposed to rush back to the USA on his own accord. There was still work for him to do in the USSR (as a dangle, presumably).

Oswald quit early. That was his fault, I gather. Now, that's no crime -- and it's not treason or anything like that. But it didn't make the ONI happy, and when the Marines asked the ONI how their Marine discharged his duties with them, the ONI shook their heads and said something like, "Well, it could have been better."

Based on that, the Marines changed Oswald's status. That's the most likely scenario, IMHO, because the notion that the Marines would take their clues from somebody's mother is basically nonsense, IMHO.

As for the sentences you highlighted in my post, Tommy:

(1) You must have forgotten about the Soviet Division CIA officer Thomas B. Casasin who wrote on 11-25-63 that he had considered "laying on of interviews" with Oswald upon his return from the Soviet Union. So, that would have been sometime in 1962.

(2) I think the ONI/CIA wanted Oswald to stay longer in Russia because the CIA was trying to get MORE dangles into the USSR at the time -- so how could they afford to LOSE one?

(3) Why do I think Oswald wanted to be a "full-fledged Intelligence Officer?" FOR THE MONEY, CLEARLY. Howard Hunt drove a very nice car -- Oswald couldn't afford a car (even after he learned to drive). CIA Officers made GOOD MONEY. There was Oswald in Dallas, watching people close to his own age making great money as ENGINEERS for Oil Companies and Bell Helicopter -- and there he was, scrimping for CHUMP CHANGE when he had a wife, a baby and another baby on the way. It was embarrassing.

(4) Do I think most CIA Agents and contract Agents were "flunkies" and "street people"? No, not generally -- however, during the Cuba Crisis, when the CIA was desperate to kill Fidel Castro, then yes. In 1961-1963 the CIA would scrape the bottom of the barrel for anything, even inside the Mafia, for heaven's sake, or people like David Ferrie, Thomas Beckham, Johnny Roselli and other felons.

It's the period of time I'm speaking of -- the specific history of 1961-1963, which is very different from 1971-1973, from 1981-1983, 1991-1993, what to speak of the 21st century. I hope that's clear.

As should be clear from the foregoing, I'd rely more on common sense than on Ivory Tower "deep structures." Oswald's mother -- nonsense!

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 24, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

Paul,

Unfortunately you've quoted here a recent post of mine that I later told Larry Hancock I had posed in error. P.D. Scott didn't say that Marine Corps G-2 and the ONI had collaborated on Oswald's "hardship discharge" ahead of time, but that they collaborated on his final "undesirable discharge" ahead of time. I got them mixed up. But I still do highly suggest reading the P.D. Scott article Oswald, Marine Corps Intelligence, and the Assault on the State Department : http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/S%20Disk/Scott%20Peter%20Dale/Item%2002.pdf

Interestingly, the Marine Corps based its decision for the latter, (the undesireable discharge ) on bad information that Marguerite Oswald had given to FBI agent John Fain -- that, based on her interpretation of a newspaper article, Lee had renounced his citizenship (when in fact he hadn't). Then later she screwed things even more when she told Lee, who was still in Russia, that the Marine Corps had given him a "dishonorable" discharge rather than the less severe "undesirable" one they had given him!

PS The title of this thread is "Was Oswald an Intelligence Agent?", not "Was Oswald a Full-Fledged Intelligence Officer".

Do you think that most CIA agents and contract agents are "flunkies" and "street people"? I'm not asking you about officers here, but agents. Or are they "flunkies" and "street people" only in comparison to officers?

I don't know what you mean by the sentences in your post that I've highlighted in green. Please elaborate. I.e., When was the CIA thinking about hiring Oswald?, Who might have advised Oswald to stay longer in Russia?, and What makes you think Oswald wanted to be a "full-fledged Intelligence Officer" rather than a "flunky", "street person", run-of-the mill Intelligence Agent? His childhood hero, Herbert Philbrick, wasn't a FBI officer, but more like an FBI informant when he was "leading three lives".

Last but not least. For your information, Oswald was given a "reduced" undesirable discharge while he was still in Russia. Apparently the only reason the Marine Corps "reduced" it from a potential honorable one was because Marine G-2 and the ONI believed Marguerite Oswald's faulty interpretation of a newspaper article more than they believed the determinations of the (allegedly "commie ridden") State Department.

Which in my mind leaves open the possibility that Oswald was sent to Russia as an intelligence agent, and that Marine Corps gave him an undesirable discharge (which was not as bad as a dishonorable one) because it mistakenly believed Oswald had not followed the plan, but had "gone rogue" by actually renouncing his citizenship. But he hadn't...

--Tommy

Well, Tommy, I've read that P.D. Scott article Oswald, Marine Corps Intelligence, and the Assault on the State Department: and again I find no hard evidence, but mainly innuendo in that writing.

Here's my take on it -- Lee Oswald went to the USSR on behalf of the ONI (or other Intelligence Agency, but let's say ONI for now). So, it makes sense to me that if the ONI were pleased with Oswald's handling of his sworn duties, there is no way they would have allowed the Marines to reduce his discharge status.

I sincerely doubt that Oswald's MOTHER had anything at all to do with the Marine's decision. Not at all.

The Marines didn't know what Oswald was doing in the USSR, but they trusted the ONI and related Agencies implicitly. Now, at the end of his tour, the ONI gave the Marines a mixed opinion of Oswald's performance of his duties in the USSR.

IMHO, Oswald wasn't supposed to get married, or if he did, he wasn't supposed to rush back to the USA on his own accord. There was still work for him to do in the USSR (as a dangle, presumably).

Oswald quit early. That was his fault, I gather. Now, that's no crime -- and it's not treason or anything like that. But it didn't make the ONI happy, and when the Marines asked the ONI how their Marine discharged his duties with them, the ONI shook their heads and said something like, "Well, it could have been better."

Based on that, the Marines changed Oswald's status. That's the most likely scenario, IMHO, because the notion that the Marines would take their clues from somebody's mother is basically nonsense, IMHO.

As for the sentences you highlighted in my post, Tommy:

(1) You must have forgotten about the Soviet Division CIA officer Thomas B. Casasin who wrote on 11-25-63 that he had considered "laying on of interviews" with Oswald upon his return from the Soviet Union. So, that would have been sometime in 1962.

(2) I think the ONI/CIA wanted Oswald to stay longer in Russia because the CIA was trying to get MORE dangles into the USSR at the time -- so how could they afford to LOSE one?

(3) Why do I think Oswald wanted to be a "full-fledged Intelligence Officer?" FOR THE MONEY, CLEARLY. Howard Hunt drove a very nice car -- Oswald couldn't afford a car (even after he learned to drive). CIA Officers made GOOD MONEY. There was Oswald in Dallas, watching people close to his own age making great money as ENGINEERS for Oil Companies and Bell Helicopter -- and there he was, scrimping for CHUMP CHANGE when he had a wife, a baby and another baby on the way. It was embarrassing.

(4) Do I think most CIA Agents and contract Agents were "flunkies" and "street people"? No, not generally -- however, during the Cuba Crisis, when the CIA was desperate to kill Fidel Castro, then yes. In 1961-1963 the CIA would scrape the bottom of the barrel for anything, even inside the Mafia, for heaven's sake, or people like David Ferrie, Thomas Beckham, Johnny Roselli and other felons.

It's the period of time I'm speaking of -- the specific history of 1961-1963, which is very different from 1971-1973, from 1981-1983, 1991-1993, what to speak of the 21st century. I hope that's clear.

As should be clear from the foregoing, I'd rely more on common sense than on Ivory Tower "deep structures." Oswald's mother -- nonsense!

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Paul,

I don't understand why you are fixated on the idea that Oswald wanted to be a "full-fledged intelligence officer" rather than "just" an agent.

How does that help your overall theory?

--Tommy

Edited January 24, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Steven Gaal]

The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments:
Shortcut to: http://www.archives.gov/iwg/declassified-records/rg-226-oss/

http://www.jfk-online.com/ce2899p2.html

=================

Johnston, Bertram L Cover name used to place Allen Dulles evening radiotelephone calls

Who was with LHO Clinton, Louisiana ??

Was Oswald an Intelligence Agent?

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https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.conspiracy.jfk/OxmuoDjZ04k

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mshack

5/24/99

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=================

A few bits from William Davy's just-released book, Let Justice Be Done: New Light on the Jim Garrison Investigation, regarding QKENCHANT: p. 195: A document notes that J. Monroe SULLIVAN [at whose Trade Mart Clay Shaw spoke on November 22, 1963] "was

A few bits from William Davy's just-released book, Let Justice Be Done:
New Light on the Jim Garrison Investigation, regarding QKENCHANT:

p. 195: A document notes that J. Monroe SULLIVAN [at whose Trade Mart
Clay Shaw spoke on November 22, 1963] "was granted a covert security

approval on 10 December 1962 so that he could be used in Project

QKENCHANT. SHAW has #402897-A." The "has," present tense, is from the
document dated March 16, 1967.
p. 196: "Reference is made to your request for a Covert Security
Approval on Subject [E. Howard Hunt], dated 3 June 1970, for utilization
under Project QKENCHANT." Was Hunt an "unwitting" participant in the
Project? He had the same kind of clearance as Sullivan and Shaw.
p. 197: A CIA computer printout sheet:
/N SHAW,CLAY SR S333959

/A BERTRAND,CLAY /YM

/D SER 1951

/R IW R402897-A 2088478 67
[Note the 67; same year as the above-quoted QKENCHANT memo.]

p. 200: Another note in the CIA's Shaw file says:
"Y # file- 33412 destroyed."

p. 288: On January 12, 1954, Guy Persac Johnson of New Orleans was
granted a covert security clearance for use in Project QKENCHANT; he was
considered the same year for use as a contract agent in Guam, and was
described as "already in liaison with the Agency."

p. 314: The CIA responded to Davy that information on QKENCHANT was
still classified, and they could release no information regarding what
the program was.

And regarding ZRCLIFF:

p. 88: Soldier of Fortune Leslie Norman Bradley considered for
employment as a pilot with ZRCLIFF

p. 297: The CIA has also refused to say what ZRCLIFF was

p. 311: Operations in William Harvey's Staff D (location of ZR projects)
routinely involved "forged and backdated" 201 files.

Martin

########o#o#########

========o=========

Lisa Pease

6/21/99

Other recipients:

=================

Dave Reitzes (drei...@aol.com) wrote: : Goodness! More fun from the people who brought us the QK/ENCHANT fiasco, in

Dave Reitzes (drei...@aol.com) wrote:

: Goodness! More fun from the people who brought us the QK/ENCHANT fiasco, in

: which it was alleged that Shaw's unwitting use as a source of DCS information
: somehow made him a clandestine operative of the CIA.

Yet another lie from Reitzes.

Please cite anywhere that I or CTKA ever "alleged" that "Shaw's unwitting
use as a source of DCS information somehow made him a clandestine operative."

Lie #1: I never said any such thing.

Lie #2: Shaw was QUITE witting in his work for the CIA, and offered to do
more. See his contact reports from the fifties.

Lie #3: His clearance for QK/ENCHANT was not related to the domestic
contacts division. The CIA has not revealed what this project was, but
Guy Johnson and E. Howard Hunt also had clearance for it.

The point was that Shaw KNOWINGLY lied on the stand when he denied ever
having worked "for or with" the CIA.

: The following is the basis for Lisa Pease and Martin Shackelford's claim about
: ZR/CLIFF and Clay Shaw.

Lie #4: Neither I nor Martin have made a claim about ZR/Cliff and Clay
Shaw. What we have both noted, however, is that the CIA had a document
that made the connection, and that the Bill Davy's book, which had been
previously excerpted in Probe, had the reference to this.

: Bill Davy writes that freelance pilot Leslie Norman Bradley was once considered

: for a CIA operation called ZR/CLIFF, "but for unknown reasons the offer of
: employment was withdrawn" (Davy, Let Justice Be Done, 88; citing CIA memo,
: March 3, 1967, author unknown. Document id #1993.06.28.15:29:52:780280, JFK Box
: # JFK1, Volume F, Folder 7).

--

Lisa Pease

"Human history becomes more and more a
race between education and catastrophe."

- H. G. Wells

Real History Archives: www.RealHistoryArchives.com

Probe/CTKA: www.webcom.com/ctka

Edited January 24, 2015 by Steven Gaal

[Paul Trejo]

Paul,

I don't understand why you are fixated on the idea that Oswald wanted to be a "full-fledged intelligence officer" rather than "just" an agent.

How does that help your overall theory?

--Tommy

Well, Tommy, in my theory, the most compelling reason for Lee Harvey Oswald to play ball with those who were FRAMING him would be some great desire or need that he himself had.

Insofar as Lee Oswald urgently wanted to be hired as a salaried CIA Officer (with all the money that comes with it) then lying liars like Guy Banister, Clay Shaw, David Ferrie, Jack S. Martin and Fred Crisman could lie to Lee Oswald and tell him that they were in the CIA, and that they could guarantee a job for Lee in the CIA if only he would do what they wanted -- without asking questions.

In order to explain the bizarre behavior of Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orleans and Mexico City in the summer of 1963 (which he did not repeat before or after that period) we must go further than NOLA DA Jim Garrison and specify Lee Oswald's motivation for cooperating with these people who worked day and night from April through September 1963 -- practically a half year -- to FRAME Lee Harvey Oswald as a Fake Officer of a Fake FPCC in New Orleans.

With the 21st century release of the Edwin Lopez Report we now have the full dossier that Lee Harvey Oswald took with him to Mexico City in order to demand an instant, no-waiting Visa into Cuba. It was a phony list of "Communist" credentials, including a fake Communist Party card, and a bunch of news clippings and paperwork carefully forged by Guy Banister with the help of Carlos Bringuier (DRE) and Ed Butler (INCA) to show that Lee Oswald was a "Director" of an alleged FPCC branch in New Orleans.

The Lopez Report reveals the full intentions of Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City in his ridiculous and fruitless demands to obtain an instant Visa into Cuba. Oswald demanded, shouted, cried and even produced a loaded pistol in two days of stupid, childish behavior to make this "dossier" work for him.

We can no longer deny that Guy Banister -- who was behind Oswald's Fake FPCC in New Orleans -- was also directly behind Oswald's Mexico City episode. Also, since Bill Simpich has shown evidence that CIA rogue David Morales and his team impersonated Lee Harvey Oswald and Sylvia Duran in Mexico City, at least partly to link Oswald's name with KGB Agent Valerie Kostikov, we may now suggest that David Morales was completely aware of Guy Banister's plot in New Orleans.

In other words, Oliver Stone's movie, JFK should have gone the extra mile to portray the Mexico City period, with David Morales playing his part there. Morales' involvement with Guy Banister is practically guaranteed in the Mexico City episode.

But back to your question, Tommy. What in the world would have motivated Lee Harvey Oswald to spend SIX MONTHS of 1963 being sheep-dipped as a Fake Director of a Fake FPCC in New Orleans and then taking this farce to Mexico City to play it out there? The best explanation, IMHO, is that Lee Harvey Oswald was promised -- by his lying, back-stabbing FRAMERS -- a full-time job in the CIA, with all the money that this entailed.

It would have been the fulfillment of his childhood dreams, for one thing -- and for another thing it would have let Oswald take care of his wife and children like a grown man -- rather than a drop-out who couldn't hold down a steady job.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

<edit typos>

Edited January 24, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Jon G. Tidd]

Paul Trejo,

I think you're right that Oswald (Marina's husband) was a drop-out who couldn't hold a steady job. He doesn't appear to be materialistic and doesn't appear to have much use for formal education, so I can't necessarily agree that his goal was to become a "CIA officer".

On the other hand, Oswald may have lived in a fantasy world. He did things that are impossible to understand unless one assumes either his strings were being pulled or he was living out some of his fantasies. I'm inclined to believe he acted out some of his fantasies with the help of others who thought they could exploit him.

Marina knew him for sure. She once described him as playing games. That may be one of the truthful things she said.

If Oswald was acting out fantasies with the help of others he would have been easy to set-up. Anyone who knew the deal with him could have done it.

[Paul Trejo]

Paul Trejo,

I think you're right that Oswald (Marina's husband) was a drop-out who couldn't hold a steady job. He doesn't appear to be materialistic and doesn't appear to have much use for formal education, so I can't necessarily agree that his goal was to become a "CIA officer".

On the other hand, Oswald may have lived in a fantasy world. He did things that are impossible to understand unless one assumes either his strings were being pulled or he was living out some of his fantasies. I'm inclined to believe he acted out some of his fantasies with the help of others who thought they could exploit him.

Marina knew him for sure. She once described him as playing games. That may be one of the truthful things she said.

If Oswald was acting out fantasies with the help of others he would have been easy to set-up. Anyone who knew the deal with him could have done it.

Well, Jon, I suspect that you're guessing. Anything is possible if one merely guesses.

What evidence do you have to claim that Oswald "doesn't appear to be materialistic" or that he "doesn't appear to have much use for formal education"?

Let me deal with these one at a time:

(1) Oswald openly claimed to be a Marxist (though NOT a Communist). Now, for anybody who has read Marx (as Oswald claimed that he had) they surely know that Marx was first and foremost a Materialist. It was a point of pride for Marx (and for Oswald) that Religion was for dummies. Atheists, by definition, are Materialists -- for that is all that remains for them.

(2) As for the claim that Oswald evaded "formal education," this doesn't square with many facts we know about Lee Harvey Oswald. For one thing, Oswald publicly claimed on the radio to have "read Marx, yes sir, as well as other philosophers."

As somebody who works at a University with an interest in academia, I can tell you with certainty that college students who read lots of philosophy amount to at most 2% of students. From the viewpoint of philosophy professors, they amount to the top 2% of the 3% of the American population that went to college in 1963. (With 190m Americans in 1963, only 6m went to college that year).

So, people who read lots of philosophy are academic rarities. Just to read lots of philosophy actually amounts to a formal education. (Of course, people who don't read philosophy won't have a clue about what I just said.)

But beyond reading philosophy, Lee Harvey Oswald decided he would teach himself to speak Russian. In fact, he spoke Russian so well that he impressed native speakers like Marina Oswald and George De Mohrenschildt. That's a very rare achievement for an adult -- and it's an ACADEMIC achievement (like reading philosophy). Oswald came from the slums, but he had a lot of brains. Let's look at his other interests:

(i) Radar spy and U2 airplane tracking codes.

(ii) Advanced photographic techniques.

(iii) Microdot coding.

(iv) Current events and contemporary politics.

Sorry, Jon, but that sort of self-education is far, far from a "fantasy world."

No way was Lee Harvey Oswald "impossible to understand" as you said. He was underprivileged, and he was a pain in the ass to those who interacted with him, because he looked down on so many lesser educated people.

We can figure out Lee Harvey Oswald if we get rid of the baggage of the Warren Commission conclusion (the Lone Nut nonsense) as well as the baggage of Jim Garrison's followers who tried to make Oswald look like an innocent bystander.

Lee Harvey Oswald was probably a very arrogant young man -- but in no way was he living in a "fantasy world."

Oswald was probably smart enough to see beyond the baloney of Guy Banister -- if he hadn't also been caught in his own web of deceit. Oswald was running from Dallas justice because he had just tried to assassinate Ex-General Edwin Walker. He had no clue (at first) that Guy Banister and David Ferrie invited him to New Orleans precisely because they knew he had tried to kill Edwin Walker.

But they knew how to LIE to Oswald. By offering him a job in the CIA (possibly also using David Atlee Phillips and his work against the FPCC and his drive to murder Fidel Castro), Lee Harvey Oswald finally believed his ship had come in, and all his hard work had not been in vain.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 27, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Jon G. Tidd]

Paul Trejo,

You write:

"What evidence do you have to claim that Oswald "doesn't appear to be materialistic" or that he "doesn't appear to have much use for formal education"?

As to being materialistic, he didn't own anything of value, had little money, and seems not to have had any desire for worldly things.

By formal education I mean the sort of instruction given in high school and college.

[Paul Brancato]

Thats a big leap Paul, but typical of you. Banister and Ferrie invited Oswald to NO because they knew he had tried to kill Walker. Then 'they' used Phillips to get Oswald to think he would finally get a real job. When you write this stuff you know we will catch it, but you do so anyway because you are so enamored of your theory that you want casual passersby on this site to be sure to read it from you first. Then you suggest that Jon is 'guessing' when he opines about Oswald.

[Larry Hancock]

Perhaps Paul is not aware of Oswald's interest in going overseas for a college education....or a variety of the possible intelligence connctions associated with that interest. If not I would

highly recommend George Michael Evica's work, available in his book A Certain Arrogance.

http://www.amazon.com/Certain-Arrogance-Sacrificing-Manipulation-Intelligence/dp/0984185844/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1422147201&sr=1-1&keywords=george+michael+evica