Who saw Baker enter the TSBD?

[Robert Prudhomme]

See if this works.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Here is a close up of the steps.

You can see the person in front of PM has bent over to listen to the person standing in front of him. This person appears to be wearing a dark top and a liht coloured skirt; precisely what Gloria Calvary was wearing.

[Thomas Graves]

Here is a close up of the steps.

You can see the person in front of PM has bent over to listen to the person standing in front of him. This person appears to be wearing a dark top and a liht coloured skirt; precisely what Gloria Calvary was wearing.

Sorry Bob,

I don't see the Calvary figure you're talking about. Could you please be a little more specific as to where she is in this clip?

Thanks,

--Tommy

[Thomas Graves]

Gloria Calvary is running to the left of Baker, you can see that in the small gif, as the other one has cropped her movements out.

Wrong dress and blouse/sweater/jacket colors. Reversed from what she was photographed wearing a few moments earlier on Elm Street.

--Tommy

[Robert Prudhomme]

Bart

I know exactly what you are saying. Gloria Calvary cannot be at the steps, for the simple fact she witnessed the assassination way down the street by the Stemmons Freeway sign, and there is simply no way she could have made it to the stairs before Baker, right?

However, this is just the tip of the iceberg, isn't it? Everything pivots around Baker's arrival at the TSBD, yet none of the witnesses are able to synchronize themselves with that.

Both Shelley and Lovelady testify to Gloria Calvary returning to the steps with the news of the shooting. Although he alters the story greatly, Shelley also mentions Calvary in his first day statement, but in this version she is across the street at the little island, and he runs over to her. I think it safe to assume that, at some point, Calvary actually did return to the steps to share the news of the shooting.

Considering that Calvary is described as a Caucasian woman, and the Calvary woman seen in your photo does not appear to be Caucasian, is it possible she was misidentified?

Thomas

It is hard to see in this gif, and I am trying to find another gif and a still I saw that shows things better. However, if you look very closely, you can see it.

Look at PM, then go down the steps, staying on the west side of the steps. See the person in the light coloured shirt? There is a dark shape seen against his chest, which is a person standing below him. If you look VERY closely, you can see an almost white shape below this person which I believe is a skirt. Gloria Calvary? Also, you can see the person in the light coloured shirt (Lovelady?) raise his head up, as if he has been listening to the other person, and straightens up at the unusual sight of a cop running toward him.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Prudhomme]

Yes, Joe Molina did state that. Unfortunately, Mr. Molina never told us just how long after the shooting he was standing in the lobby when Gloria Calvary came in. It must have been a fair amount of time, as this other piece of Molina's testimony tells us he did not go directly into the TSBD, following the shooting.

"Mr. MOLINA. Well, I heard the shots.

Mr. BALL. Where--what was the source of the sound?
Mr. MOLINA. Sort of like it reverberated, sort of kind of came from the west side; that was the first impression I got. Of course, the first shot was fired then there was an interval between the first and second longer than the second and third.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, I just stood there, everybody was running and I didn't know what to do actually, because what could I do. I was just shocked.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Yes, this fellow come to me---Mr. Williams said, somebody said, somebody was shooting at the President, somebody, I don't know who it was. There was some shooting, you know, and this fellow said "What can anybody gain

371

by that"; he just shook his head and I just stood there and shook my head. I didn't want to .think what was happening, you know, but I wanted to find out so I went down to where the grassy slope is, you know, and I was trying to gather pieces of conversation of the people that had been close by there and somebody said "Well, the President has been shot and I think they shot somebody else", something like that."

[Robert Prudhomme]

I don't quite follow your line of thinking here, Bart, or what this has to do with Gloria Calvary. Victoria Adams left the rear of the TSBD, spent an undetermined amount of time at the rail yard, stopped to listen to radio transmissions on Baker's motorcycle radio and only then returned to the front entrance of the TSBD, where she encountered Molina. Had Molina just returned from the "grassy slope" area or was he about to go there? Had he already spoken to Gloria Calvary, or was she about to return to the TSBD? Did Gloria Calvary go directly back to her work place, or did she linger in the lobby for an undetermined amount of time? Make careful note of the fact that Molina does not say he went into the lobby before going down to the "grassy slope" and we can only assume he entered the lobby after returning from the "grassy slope".

Something that all of us should consider is that 1) Gloria Calvary may have been misidentified at the location by the Stemmons Freeway sign or 2) Ms. Calvary was at the Stemmons Freeway sign, but did not linger in that area following the shooting, and made a very hasty return to the entrance to the TSBD. This would mean photos identifying her as remaining in the pergola area for several minutes are mistaken. I would like to remind everyone she was listed as being Caucasian by the FBI, and that the woman in the photo does not appear to be Caucasian.

Re: FBI report for Pauline Sanders. Do you see Ms. Sanders' signature on this report?

Edited May 10, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas Graves]

I don't quite follow your line of thinking here, Bart, or what this has to do with Gloria Calvary. Victoria Adams left the rear of the TSBD, spent an undetermined amount of time at the rail yard, stopped to listen to radio transmissions on Baker's motorcycle radio and only then returned to the front entrance of the TSBD, where she encountered Molina. Had Molina just returned from the "grassy slope" area or was he about to go there? Had he already spoken to Gloria Calvary, or was she about to return to the TSBD? Did Gloria Calvary go directly back to her work place, or did she linger in the lobby for an undetermined amount of time? Make careful note of the fact that Molina does not say he went into the lobby before going down to the "grassy slope" and we can only assume he entered the lobby after returning from the "grassy slope".

Something that all of us should consider is that a) Gloria Calvary may have been misidentified at the location by the Stemmons Freeway sign or Ms. Calvary was at the Stemmons Freeway sign, but did not linger in that area following the shooting, and made a very hasty return to the entrance to the TSBD. This would mean photos identifying her as remaining in the pergola area for several minutes are mistaken. I would like to remind everyone she was listed as being Caucasian by the FBI, and that the woman in the photo does not appear to be Caucasian.

Re: FBI report for Pauline Sanders. Do you see Ms. Sanders' signature on this report?

What kind and color of clothes was Pauline Sanders wearing that day? Dark bottom and light top, by any chance? (Too lazy to check, myself.) Just thinking that maybe, just maybe, that's Sanders (or somebody else) running towards the TSBD in Darnell/Couch and that Calvary has either already arrived or is trailing behind Sanders somewhere.

--Tommy

Edited May 10, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Ian Lloyd]

See if this works.

Very interesting gif for a number of reasons:

1. I must concur with Bob regarding the size/build of the cop running compared to Marrion Baker - Baker seems shorter and stockier than the cop seen in the gif IMO;

2. The way the people are moving back toward the TSBD seems to give the impression that this was somewhat later than the "Baker time" - again IMO;

3. I wonder what causes "stetson man" to turn and look up toward the top of the TSBD? Similarly for the guy just coming into "shot" from the right;

4. In the background is what appears to be another cop running though I can't tell exactly where he is running to - it looks initially like he runs to the "island" but he may be running down the small side street of Elm. Who is he and where did he come from?;

5. There also appears to be a woman running up along the side of the building toward the TSBD entrance - who is she?

Overall, looking at how many people that cop has to run past/through, it is surprising how many people didn't seem to recall seeing him. I guess it also depends on who was asked.

[Thomas Graves]

See if this works.

Very interesting gif for a number of reasons:

1. I must concur with Bob regarding the size/build of the cop running compared to Marrion Baker - Baker seems shorter and stockier than the cop seen in the gif IMO;

2. The way the people are moving back toward the TSBD seems to give the impression that this was somewhat later than the "Baker time" - again IMO;

3. I wonder what causes "stetson man" to turn and look up toward the top of the TSBD? Similarly for the guy just coming into "shot" from the right;

4. In the background is what appears to be another cop running though I can't tell exactly where he is running to - it looks initially like he runs to the "island" but he may be running down the small side street of Elm. Who is he and where did he come from?;

5. There also appears to be a woman running up along the side of the building toward the TSBD entrance - who is she?

Overall, looking at how many people that cop has to run past/through, it is surprising how many people didn't seem to recall seeing him. I guess it also depends on who was asked.

I think the people "moving back towards the TSBD" were doing so only because they wanted to see what the running policeman was going to do there. Note that they are moving quickly. IMHO, they are doing that in order not to "miss" anything.

--Tommy

[Ian Lloyd]

See if this works.

Very interesting gif for a number of reasons:

1. I must concur with Bob regarding the size/build of the cop running compared to Marrion Baker - Baker seems shorter and stockier than the cop seen in the gif IMO;

2. The way the people are moving back toward the TSBD seems to give the impression that this was somewhat later than the "Baker time" - again IMO;

3. I wonder what causes "stetson man" to turn and look up toward the top of the TSBD? Similarly for the guy just coming into "shot" from the right;

4. In the background is what appears to be another cop running though I can't tell exactly where he is running to - it looks initially like he runs to the "island" but he may be running down the small side street of Elm. Who is he and where did he come from?;

5. There also appears to be a woman running up along the side of the building toward the TSBD entrance - who is she?

Overall, looking at how many people that cop has to run past/through, it is surprising how many people didn't seem to recall seeing him. I guess it also depends on who was asked.

I think the people "moving back towards the TSBD" were doing so only because they wanted to see what the running policeman was going to do there. Note that they are moving quickly. IMHO, they are doing that in order not to "miss" anything.

--Tommy

Not all of the people are "...moving quickly." IMO.

[Thomas Graves]

See if this works.

Very interesting gif for a number of reasons:

1. I must concur with Bob regarding the size/build of the cop running compared to Marrion Baker - Baker seems shorter and stockier than the cop seen in the gif IMO;

2. The way the people are moving back toward the TSBD seems to give the impression that this was somewhat later than the "Baker time" - again IMO;

3. I wonder what causes "stetson man" to turn and look up toward the top of the TSBD? Similarly for the guy just coming into "shot" from the right;

4. In the background is what appears to be another cop running though I can't tell exactly where he is running to - it looks initially like he runs to the "island" but he may be running down the small side street of Elm. Who is he and where did he come from?;

5. There also appears to be a woman running up along the side of the building toward the TSBD entrance - who is she?

Overall, looking at how many people that cop has to run past/through, it is surprising how many people didn't seem to recall seeing him. I guess it also depends on who was asked.

I think the people "moving back towards the TSBD" were doing so only because they wanted to see what the running policeman was going to do there. Note that they are moving quickly. IMHO, they are doing that in order not to "miss" anything.

--Tommy

Not all of the people are "...moving quickly." IMO.

The few people who are moving directly towards towards the TSBD are already close to the TSBD and are moving very quickly except for perhaps one lady in a black raincoat who might me moving about as fast as she can, or who perhaps remembers the adage "Real ladies don't run." Her final stride across the street is a long one, though, so perhaps she's decided to finally "get a move on."

Notice how all the kids are starting to run down Elm Street towards the Grassy Knoll? Do you think they just stood there watching patiently for a long time first? I rather doubt it.

Also, see the rear part of the convertible car in the left foreground at the beginning of the clip? That's a press car that was in the motorcade, and it takes off again in a few seconds, as it follows the other cars ahead of it in the motorcade as they race down Elm Street, following JFK's limo.

(I'm not going to argue with you, or even "debate" it any further.)

--Tommy

Edited May 10, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

I believe Pauline Sanders was standing on the TSBD steps. Not sure what she was wearing.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas Graves]

See if this works.

Very interesting gif for a number of reasons:

1. I must concur with Bob regarding the size/build of the cop running compared to Marrion Baker - Baker seems shorter and stockier than the cop seen in the gif IMO;

2. The way the people are moving back toward the TSBD seems to give the impression that this was somewhat later than the "Baker time" - again IMO;

3. I wonder what causes "stetson man" to turn and look up toward the top of the TSBD? Similarly for the guy just coming into "shot" from the right;

4. In the background is what appears to be another cop running though I can't tell exactly where he is running to - it looks initially like he runs to the "island" but he may be running down the small side street of Elm. Who is he and where did he come from?;

5. There also appears to be a woman running up along the side of the building toward the TSBD entrance - who is she?

Overall, looking at how many people that cop has to run past/through, it is surprising how many people didn't seem to recall seeing him. I guess it also depends on who was asked.

I think the people "moving back towards the TSBD" were doing so only because they wanted to see what the running policeman was going to do there. Note that they are moving quickly. IMHO, they are doing that in order not to "miss" anything.

--Tommy

Not all of the people are "...moving quickly." IMO.

The few people who are moving directly towards towards the TSBD are already close to the TSBD and are moving very quickly except for perhaps one lady in a black raincoat who might me moving about as fast as she can, or who perhaps remembers the adage "Real ladies don't run." Her final stride across the street is a long one, though, so perhaps she's decided to finally "get a move on."

Notice how all the kids are starting to run down Elm Street towards the Grassy Knoll? Do you think they just stood there watching patiently for a long time first? I rather doubt it.

Also, see the rear part of the convertible car in the left foreground at the beginning of the clip? That's a press car that was in the motorcade, and it takes off again in a few seconds, as it follows the other cars ahead of it in the motorcade as they race down Elm Street, following JFK's limo.

(I'm not going to argue with you, or even "debate" it any further.)

--Tommy

bumped

Edited May 10, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

Hate to say it but, that looks like Lovelady on the steps, west side, leaning over to hear what someone is telling him; right where he testified he was for 3-4 minutes following the shots.