Did Gloria Calvery almost catch up to Marion Baker?

[Thomas Graves]

Tom Craven next to Wiegman in (CC1 POTP 383)

"We thought it was motorcycle backfire but after we found out there were shots being fired from the TSBD...".

Logic.

I almost completely sure the video I linked to yesterday is from Wiegman but it could be mixed with some of Craven's footage. Trask, usually quite a good source, seems to have glossed over the fact that they were at the Trade Mart for a good ten minutes and gives the reader the impression through Craven's memory(rather than the above footage that tells another story) that they left with Johns almost immediately.

PS.

I'm sorry if this is going too off topic but I was original inspired by the idea of people interpreting the Darnell and Couch footage as people panicking, I read it completely differently and I'm not going to keep banging on about it.

Thanks for accommodating me.

Clive,

Was Wiegman "panicking" when he ran down Elm Street with his camera running?

Why did he do that? Had he heard the shots?

Do you think the people around the TSBD and the "island" were acting as though nothing unusual had happened when they were caught on film in Couch / Darnell?

Why were so many of them still looking down Elm Street after the limo had disappeared under the Triple Underpass? To get one last look at Lady Bird? (Just kidding.)

Do you think they were only reacting (in Wiegman as well as Couch / Darnell) to what they could see happening down the street and / or on the Grassy Knoll? Or had they heard the shots? Was it a combination?

Was Baker "panicking" when he ran across Elm Street Extension towards the TSBD?

Why did he do that? Had he heard the shots?

Were Shelley and Lovelady "panicking" when they started running as Running Lady ran past them?

Why were they walking down Elm Street Extension, anyway? Had they heard the shots?

Etc.

--Tommy

Edited September 15, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

[...]

Anyway, you disagree, what can I do? I don't have much more.

Clive,

Correct. I disagree.

I guess your whole point is that one of the two guys wearing khaki in front of the TSBD during the motorcade couldn't have turned to look at the TSBD in response to having heard a shot or shots coming from there. Ditto A. J. Millican and the black women next to him down on Elm Street.

--Tommy

Well, I haven't commented on this at all but the President has gone by them already, so for some there is not much use in continuing to watch the back of a head when there are other VIPs that they may recognise passing directly in front of them.

I don't see anything noteworthy with the Khaki guy either, he takes his eye of the motorcade for a second, as do many, many others all alone the parade route. He might have heard something sure, a pop, a bang, someone shouting something stupid, anything.

You have to look at Dorman again sometime Tommy and watch the lack of reaction on the south side there by the intersection, it completely supports this theory. Betzner is one we know and recognise, he heard the first shot he said immediately after he took his photo on Elm and yet he just stands there watching the limo with woman and children near him.

Isn't he supposed to at least look around and see if he himself is in harms way?

Anyway it is what it is, the films support it but it isn't about no one hearing anything and lying about it, in that regard I'd say many heard something but this is and my own point, they showed no outward signs of being scared of these sounds, these sounds later became shots.

Willis is another one we know well and claimed he recognised the first shot as gunfire, I am totally convinced that he, like everyone else directly opposite him, just stood there and made no move to protect himself or his family.

I have have no way of knowing what this really signifies but one firecracker followed by "two booms" that are obviously to everyone as gunfire is clearly out of the question.

Everything starts with the unmissable head shot, the reaction in the crowd starts there and spreads. Wiegman too sets off a minor chain of events outside the TSBD.

That's what the films say.

It get's worse.

At this point I'm even willing to believe the possibility that even that man and woman on the pedestal may have missed the whole thing, they certainly do not seem afraid of any sound they are alleged to have heard.

Now, how can you capture something on film like that but not be aware of it?

Hi Clive

Considering how loud a rifle report directly above them and pointed in their general direction would have been, don't you find it odd that there are no startle reactions visible on the faces of the bystanders, not even as late as the Altgens 6 photo?

Robert,

Well I guess that proves it. No shots were fired from the TSBD.

--Tommy

On the contrary, Thomas. Shots may very well have been fired from the TSBD AND the Dal-Tex Building. The question to ask is, what kind of shots were fired?

[Thomas Graves]

Exactly, Robert.

I was just kidding.

Seriously, perhaps a silenced shot or two were fired from the TSBD and / or Dal-Tex and were heard by only a few people in special places, acoustically-speaking.

--Tommy

Edited September 15, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Linda Giovanna Zambanini]

Robert,

I'm looking for Shelly and I only see one guy on the steps who is wearing a coat and tie. I'm talking about the guy behind Frazier.

But he seems to be wearing a hat, too, and looks kinda broad-shouldered. Was Bill Shelly known to wear a hat?

Do you think Shelley was already over on the "corner of the park" when this footage was taken, conferring with Gloria Calvery?

Or already inside, calling his wife?

--Tommy

Regarding your belief that Lovelady , in the gif, can be seen rising up from a sitting position on the steps, I just remembered that in Wiegman and Altgens 6 we can see Lovelady standing on the steps just to the left of the center hand railing, watching the motorcade! Can you think of any reason he (or anyone) would have knelt or sat down on the steps after hearing what sounded (to many) like shots being fired as the President of the United States was passing by? Don't you think he would have been interested in seeing what was going on? I find it implausible that he would have sat down to eat his lunch at that point, so that's why I'm leaning towards interpreting your "rising Lovelady on the steps" as the back side and scarfed head (light colored scarf) of an older woman slowly climbing the steps and using the left handrail as she does so.

Just to show you how fair I am, I will allow you the possibility that Lovelady didn't kneel down or sit down at all, but that he climbed one step backwards in the gif. But wouldn't that have been rather awkward and obvious? I don't know. I can only imagine what that would look like. And why would he have moved from the center hand railing to the left edge of the steps? To have a worse view of what was goin' on down on Elm?

Hi Tommy!

Actually, I don't think Molina is wearing a hat - that's his very dark (but graying) hair and I also think he's wearing either sunglasses or those glasses that automatically darken - if they existed in '63. At any rate - dark glasses. As you know I believe he's the 2nd TLR cameraman on the steps - and in one of the blowups i made from the Towner film we see he's looking down in the viewfinder and shading his eyes w/ is right hand. (This IS done by TLR photographers sometimes in facing bright sun - i have an example of it). We can see his forehead and hairline - he has very dark hair and there's a white/silver rim all along the hairline and in the temple area even more. It's also a high hairline - ie: receding a bit. You can also see a bit of his left eyebrow ridge and orbit.... so using that as a landmark we can see how "high" his hairline is.

His described his physical traits in his extensive FBI file. He said in his description he was 5'7 1/2" & 164# and "stocky" and had a "fair" complexion, brown eyes, with a large mole in his LEFT eyebrow, and that his hair was "dark, graying, and balding in front" ("balding in front" could mean a wide variety of things - it could just mean "receding" or "thinning" which it appears his hairline is very high - i would say receding. But i don't see any circular-type shiny dome for example.). So what i see in that photo blowup jives with his description of himself. He was 39 at the time, if i remember correctly.

Also to me, in Altgens 6 he doesn't appear to have a suit and tie on - but a short sleeved white shirt (I'm sure a dress shirt). Actually, I just looked at it again to make sure... and his arms are crossed over his head and you can see his long sleeves are rolled or pushed up to just above elbow level - you can see the fabric bunched up there. He may have on a tie (probably given his job) - but i can't see one. That being said - it could be a light colored tie that's being bleached out by the bright sun he's standing in OR Mr Williams standing in front of him could be blocking the view of it. Hope this helps!

PS: Here he is today...well not "today" but in '88:

IMO that is NOT Shelley - irregardless of what WBF says about Shelly having on a white dress shirt and tie. Shelley is much skinnier and narrower in the shoulders. And he was filmed or photographed on 11/22 without AND with a black suit jacket on. Also Shelley did not have dark hair - he had blondish/reddish hair! (Obviously the guy in the blowup - who, IMO, must be Molina, decidedly does not have strawberry blonde hair! So that should help eliminate the man in the middle there right off the bat.) Remember, Buell also says Shelley was PM, when Shelley is 1/2 way to the RR yard with Lovelady! And when PM is to his right and Frazier SHELLEY (edited 9/16/15, 8:15pm; just reread this - sorry for the typo! ) in his black jacket and tie are to his left! Shelley cannot be TWO people at the same time! And that's the lie Buell got caught in by saying PM was Shelley.

Buell has also said there were no cameras on the steps, in fact, no cameras he could see anywhere around the steps(!), when there were at least 2 he was staring down on either side of him! He's lying and he knows he's lying! He has a lotta splainin' to do!

Edit : sorry keep thinking of things to say! You will also please note in that photo of Joe Molina he has MASSIVE ears! Check it out - wowza!! And notice the giant, dark - let's just call it "canal" - in the middle of it. Now look at the area on my TLR cameraman blowup where his left ear is. There is no exact outline of an "ear" one can see, but there is a huge light colored area there in the shape of an ear - and in the middle of that an equally huge dark area - just as we see with Molina's ears. There's no doubt it's Molina - plus geographically he's in the right area of the steps.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Linda Giovanna Zambanini

[Thomas Graves]

Robert,

I'm looking for Shelly and I only see one guy on the steps who is wearing a coat and tie. I'm talking about the guy behind Frazier.

But he seems to be wearing a hat, too, and looks kinda broad-shouldered. Was Bill Shelly known to wear a hat?

Do you think Shelley was already over on the "corner of the park" when this footage was taken, conferring with Gloria Calvery?

Or already inside, calling his wife?

--Tommy

Regarding your belief that Lovelady , in the gif, can be seen rising up from a sitting position on the steps, I just remembered that in Wiegman and Altgens 6 we can see Lovelady standing on the steps just to the left of the center hand railing, watching the motorcade! Can you think of any reason he (or anyone) would have knelt or sat down on the steps after hearing what sounded (to many) like shots being fired as the President of the United States was passing by? Don't you think he would have been interested in seeing what was going on? I find it implausible that he would have sat down to eat his lunch at that point, so that's why I'm leaning towards interpreting your "rising Lovelady on the steps" as the back side and scarfed head (light colored scarf) of an older woman slowly climbing the steps and using the left handrail as she does so.

Just to show you how fair I am, I will allow you the possibility that Lovelady didn't kneel down or sit down at all, but that he climbed one step backwards in the gif. But wouldn't that have been rather awkward and obvious? I don't know. I can only imagine what that would look like. And why would he have moved from the center hand railing to the left edge of the steps? To have a worse view of what was goin' on down on Elm?

Hi Tommy!

Actually, I don't think Molina is wearing a hat - that's his very dark (but graying) hair and I also think he's wearing either sunglasses or those glasses that automatically darken - if they existed in '63. At any rate - dark glasses. As you know I believe he's the 2nd TLR cameraman on the steps - and in one of the blowups i made from a Towner film screen capture of him looking down into the viewfinder - you can see his very dark hair and it seems to have a silver rim around it at the hairline.

His described his physical traits in his extensive FBI file. He said in his description he was 5'7 1/2" & 164# and "stocky" and had a "fair" complexion, brown eyes, with a large mole in his LEFT eyebrow, and that his hair was "dark, graying, and balding in front" ("balding in front" could mean a wide variety of things - it could just mean "receding" or "thinning" which it appears his hairline is very high. But i don't see any circular-type shiny dome for example.). So what i see in that photo blowup jives with his description of himself. He was 39 at the time, if i remember correctly.

Also to me, in Altgens 6 he doesn't appear to have a suit and tie on - but a short sleeved white shirt (I'm sure a dress shirt). Actually, I just looked at it again to make sure... and his arms are crossed over his head and you can see his long sleeves are rolled or pushed up to just above elbow level - you can see the fabric bunched up there. He may have on a tie (probably given his job) - but i can't see one. That being said - it could be a light colored tie that's being bleached out by the bright sun he's standing in OR Mr Williams standing in front of him could be blocking the view of it. Hope this helps!

Linda,

I think we're talking about different people.

If you could indicate who you're talking about with an arrow or a circle, then I'll either confirm or deny.

I would do it myself, but I don't know how.

--Tommy

Edited September 15, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

Someone please refresh my memory for me. How tall were Lovelady and Shelley?

[Robert Prudhomme]

bump

[Linda Giovanna Zambanini]

Hi Tommy! Really?! To save time so I don't have to download that Darnell still in your post then circle things and upload it to imgur so I can post it here - I will just explain. If it's still not clear, let me know.

I'm talking about the big (wide) guy in the white shirt to the immediate right of Frazier (ie: to Frazier's immediate left). He has a black horizontal "stripe" near the top of his face - those are sunglasses, IMO. From a distance, that stripe may give the impression he has on a hat. But if you blow it up it looks like sunglasses to me. I can see how you would think it's may be a gray hat with a black hatband - but it's not, IMO. In that Darnell still he does not have his arms crossed over his head shading his eyes as he did in in Altgens 6 (I think he's the same guy...).

Now there is a person in that Darnell still, just to the right of "Molina", and down a step or 2 that has her arm/ hand up shading her eyes. And immediately below her is the woman I've previously said I think is Carolyn Arnold (who, my interpretation is, returned to the steps after the shots, and seems to be gazing westward down Elm from that higher vantage point, trying to see what's happening.) I have no idea who the person is with his/her arm/hand shading his/her eyes - it might be Pauline Sanders, who was on the landing originally to the right of Molina, OR it might be Sarah Stanton, whom Sanders said was "next to" her - just a guess. Or it might be somebody who ran back to the steps, like Carolyn A. and climbed up there to have a look.

It's possible it's Sanders since this is right after the shots. She said she stayed on the steps "for a moment" after the shots, then went out to the island to get a better look down Elm, also "for a moment", then returned to her 2nd floor office.


Btw...in making this post I looked up Pauline Sanders - she has a findagrave page - d. 1996.

Stanton didn't have one - she died in '92 - so I ended up researching her and making a findagrave page for her here. Her full name was Sarah Juanita Dean Stanton. Maiden name "Dean".
However, and this is weird, she also went by Sarah Dean Daniel - I found a probate record for her with that name, in parenthesis, listed under her other name. So I searched for Sarah Daniel and Sara Dean Daniel and found out she went by Sarah Daniel in the 1940 Census - and she was listed as the 18yo niece of a Martin family: Steven D. Martin (head) and Willa D. Martin (wife). So I'm pretty lost as to what exactly is going on in that family tree! Maybe her parent's died or were killed early? But that doesn't explain the surname Daniel. She obviously has a sister or brother or both, because the inscription on her headstone says "Sister" at the top. I've pretty much given up on it for the moment...

Linda,

I think we're talking about different people.

If you could indicate who you're talking about with an arrow or a circle, then I'll either confirm or deny.

I would do it myself, but I don't know how.

--Tommy

Edited September 17, 2015 by Linda Giovanna Zambanini

[Linda Giovanna Zambanini]

Someone please refresh my memory for me. How tall were Lovelady and Shelley?

I think Lovelady was 5'8" - think I read it on here in fact and I was sort of surprised because I had in my mind that he was shorter - like 5'5" or something. Not sure about Shelley - but he looks tall. I just googled Shelley's ht...haven't found it yet. Keep getting hits about the length of the "rifle" package! But also... hits for Intelius, radaris etc... saying Wm Hoyt Shelley is 89yo and living in Irving! Is that possible? I didn't realize he was still around.

[Linda Giovanna Zambanini]

Hi Tommy! Sorry I didn't make it clear. I'm referring to this guy in the middle of the landing or 1st step (Molina said he was on the landing - but must've moved around a bit into the sunlight).

Also, I don't think I made it clear above - in case you didn't know, that dark image I posted - that's a still of TLR Cameraman #2 from the TOWNER film. Here you go...Darnell.:

Edited September 17, 2015 by Linda Giovanna Zambanini

[Thomas Graves]

Hi Tommy! Sorry I didn't make it clear. I'm referring to this guy in the middle of the landing or 1st step (Molina said he was on the landing - but must've moved around a bit into the sunlight).

Also, I don't think I made it clear above - in case you didn't know, that dark image I posted - that's a still of TLR Cameraman #2 from the TOWNER film. Here you go...Darnell.:

Linda,

I agree about the Molina figure, but I still think he's wearing a coat, tie, and hat.

Question: Where is Shelley?

Question: Is that Lovelady rising up on the far left, or a woman wearing a light-colored scarf on her head and climbing the steps?

--Tommy

Edited September 17, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Linda Giovanna Zambanini]

Hi Tommy! Sorry I didn't make it clear. I'm referring to this guy in the middle of the landing or 1st step (Molina said he was on the landing - but must've moved around a bit into the sunlight).

Also, I don't think I made it clear above - in case you didn't know, that dark image I posted - that's a still of TLR Cameraman #2 from the TOWNER film. Here you go...Darnell.:

Linda,

I agree about the Molina figure, but I still think he's wearing a coat, tie, and hat.

Question: Where is Shelley?

Question: Is that Lovelady rising up on the far left, or a woman wearing a light-colored scarf on her head and climbing the steps?

--Tommy

I do see in this version of Darnell that has a lot of lavender/purple in it "Molina" looks like he has on a dark coat. AND I can barely make out what may be a tie knot. But i'm not sure if he really has on a coat or it's just the shading of this photo. In Altgens 6 Molina (the guy with his arms over his head) doesn't look like he has a coat on - just a white shirt. The guy to the left of him (his rt) is wearing a black suit and tie and white shirt. Or are you saying that that suit and tie man in Altgens 6 is Molina and and white shirt man is Shelley?

Very interesting Tommy...To (try to) disprove you about the jacket/suit coat i went to my (fairly clear) Darnell Zip file and clicked thru the whole sequence and - low and behold - i do see that Molina seems to have on a gray suit jacket with the front open and a white shirt in the middle in each and every frame he's visible (it could be some color besides "gray" of course) but the point is we can see a darker jacket contrasted with a white shirt. You are right! My bad! Good work, my man!

Now...at the same time we can see Lovelady and Shelley trotting down the Elm Extension together. (To me in the clear anim. gif of them - i think Gerda made, didn't she? - those 2 are definitely Shelley and Lovelady. The hair, the build, dress etc... looks like them - and "Shelley" has on a black suit jacket it appears. So the guy you and I are calling "Molina" left behind on the steps next to Frazier and PM must definitely be Molina.

So when did Altgens 6 Molina put on a jacket? Had he taken it off and laid it on the landing behind him? in Altgens6 Molina I can only see him wearing a white shirt w/ rolled up shirt sleeves. And btw... i don't think Altgens 6 Molina OR Darnell Molina has on a hat. We don't see a hat on his head as he's taking photos with his TLR - just his dark hair with a gray or salt & pepper rim. What are your ideas on this? Are you thinking he put on a suit jacket and hat (which he had laid aside during the motorcade) in time to be filmed with them on in Darnell? (I suppose that's possible). Are you thinking he put it back on planning to soon make an exit (like LHO did)? Or just to return to the office? Good find on the "gray" jacket! I await your ideas (and those of others) on this....

Edited September 18, 2015 by Linda Giovanna Zambanini

[Linda Giovanna Zambanini]

...

I remember telling you guys *I* wrote it up - I was quite happy with my hard work - and that I had used some of the photos you guys had found of her found before I even joined that thread (and I also used photos I found of her grave marker and wedding announcement) to make her memorial. So yes, that's my handiwork.

Later! Time for lunch and finishing and posting my little project...

Linda,

if I had known it was yours at first, I would have not used the phrase "taking liberties" and I doubt Robert would have either, my sincere apologies to you. The way you present your work here speaks for itself and I thank you for continuing to share it and your thoughts with us.

I knew reasonably well how you made the connections to that being Calvary on film but I suppose it had something to do with it being presented on a website outside of the research community as fact that ever so slightly "irked" us.

Thank you, Clive! Apology definitely accepted! Would you like for me to make some changes to that part of the findagrave memorial? Maybe put in some conditional qualifiers like "it looks like" or "it's thought to be" or something along those lines?

[Clive Largey]

Why not leave it like it is for now Linda? We may find another positive lead yet.

Also Tommy,

I'm missing your point with all those questions about the alleged panic sorry.

The answer however is no, there was no panic in response to gunfire up near the intersection despite what some have said in their testimony because, there is no evidence of it, on film, anywhere, if you find some I'd love to see it.

[Thomas Graves]

Why not leave it like it is for now Linda? We may find another positive lead yet.

Also Tommy,

I'm missing your point with all those questions about the alleged panic sorry.

The answer however is no, there was no panic in response to gunfire up near the intersection despite what some have said in their testimony because, there is no evidence of it, on film, anywhere, if you find some I'd love to see it.

Dear Clive.

No need to exaggerate. You were the one who used the word "panic," not I.

--Tommy