Did Gloria Calvery almost catch up to Marion Baker?

[Thomas Graves]

2 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

The woman appears to be running with her arms crossed in front of her chest as if holding her head scarf against her bosom.

Was she a really fast runner to have been standing down on Elm Street during the assassination but running down the TSBD-side of Elm Street Extension in Couch / Darnell?

--  Tommy

Edited December 26, 2016 by Thomas Graves
spacing

[Robin Unger]

Zapruder mirror image

Edited December 26, 2016 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

[Bill Miller]

4 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Was she a really fast runner to have been standing down on Elm Street during the assassination but running down the TSBD-side of Elm Street Extension in Couch / Darnell?

--  Tommy

Thomas,

I guess one can say that she was as fast as she needed to be. It took Patrolman Baker around 2.5secs to cross the Elm Street extension. But before Baker started his run he had just heard the radio call about getting some officers in the RR yard to see what just occurred there. If I remember correctly, it took 10 or more seconds after the shoots for the limo to pass under the underpass. In this image below - I do not see woman "K" as she appears to have already fled her position along the street as so many other people were in the process of doing.

Mr. BELIN - After you parked your motorcycle, did you notice anything that was going on in the area?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. As I parked here

Mr. BAKER - At this point, I looked down here as I was parking my motorcycle and these people on this ground here, on the sidewalk, there were several of them falling, and they were rolling around down there, and all these people were rushing back, a lot of them were grabbing their children, and I noticed one, I didn't know who he was, but there was a man ran out into the crowd and back. (Note:  I suspect who Baker saw was Dave Wiegman leaving his car and running towards the crowd - in the direction of the knoll)

Mr. BELIN - Did you notice anything else?
Mr. BAKER - Except there was a woman standing--well, all these people were running, and there was a woman screaming, "Oh, they have shot that man, they have shot that man."

Mr. BELIN - All right.
Is there anything else you saw there, Officer Baker, before you ran to the building?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir; not at that time.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Then what did you do after surveying the situation?
Mr. BAKER - I had it in mind that the shots came from the top of this building here.
Mr. BELIN - By this building, you are referring to what?
Mr. BAKER - The Book Depository Building.

Mr. BAKER - Well, now, let me say this. From this position here.
Mr. BELIN - That is position "B" on Exhibit 361?
Mr. BAKER - There were people running all over this here.

Mr. BAKER - As those shots rang out, why they started running, you know, every direction, just trying to get back out of the way.
Mr. DULLES - For the record, by this area right here, you have that little peninsula between the Elm Street extension and the Building?
Mr. BAKER - That is right. This little street runs down in front of the building down here to the property of the railroad tracks and this is all a parkway.
Mr. DULLES - Yes. I just wanted to get it for the record.
Mr. BELIN - You then ran into the Building, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - That is correct, sir.
Mr. BELIN - What did you see and what did you do as you ran into the building?
Mr. BAKER - As I entered this building, there was, it seems to me like there was outside doors and then there is a little lobby.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Mr. BAKER - And then there are some inner doors and another door you have to go through, a swinging door type.
As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "I am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into the swinging door.
 

After a simple cross reference of the images against the witnesses statements - it looks like Calvery got the jump on Patrolman Baker as he parked his bike - dismounted it while standing it up in the street - accessed the situation down the street for a moment while hearing the radio call that was made - and then while running to the steps of the TSBD there enters a woman running for the entrance of the building. All captured on film for those who wish to examine it carefully.

Hope the additional breakdown was something you found helpful. 

Edited December 26, 2016 by Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

4 hours ago, Dave Curbow said:

Good to see you back, Bill. Solid analysis.

Dave

Thanks, Dave. As you know it is just a process of putting the pieces of the puzzle together to attempt to get an idea of what unfolded during that period of intense shock and mayhem.

[Thomas Graves]

6 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Thomas,

I guess one can say that she was as fast as she needed to be. It took Patrolman Baker around 2.5secs to cross the Elm Street extension. But before Baker started his run he had just heard the radio call about getting some officers in the RR yard to see what just occurred there. If I remember correctly, it took 10 or more seconds after the shoots for the limo to pass under the underpass. In this image below - I do not see woman "K" as she appears to have already fled her position along the street as so many other people were in the process of doing.

Mr. BELIN - After you parked your motorcycle, did you notice anything that was going on in the area?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. As I parked here

Mr. BAKER - At this point, I looked down here as I was parking my motorcycle and these people on this ground here, on the sidewalk, there were several of them falling, and they were rolling around down there, and all these people were rushing back, a lot of them were grabbing their children, and I noticed one, I didn't know who he was, but there was a man ran out into the crowd and back. (Note:  I suspect who Baker saw was Dave Wiegman leaving his car and running towards the crowd - in the direction of the knoll)

Mr. BELIN - Did you notice anything else?
Mr. BAKER - Except there was a woman standing--well, all these people were running, and there was a woman screaming, "Oh, they have shot that man, they have shot that man."

Mr. BELIN - All right.
Is there anything else you saw there, Officer Baker, before you ran to the building?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir; not at that time.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Then what did you do after surveying the situation?
Mr. BAKER - I had it in mind that the shots came from the top of this building here.
Mr. BELIN - By this building, you are referring to what?
Mr. BAKER - The Book Depository Building.

Mr. BAKER - Well, now, let me say this. From this position here.
Mr. BELIN - That is position "B" on Exhibit 361?
Mr. BAKER - There were people running all over this here.

Mr. BAKER - As those shots rang out, why they started running, you know, every direction, just trying to get back out of the way.
Mr. DULLES - For the record, by this area right here, you have that little peninsula between the Elm Street extension and the Building?
Mr. BAKER - That is right. This little street runs down in front of the building down here to the property of the railroad tracks and this is all a parkway.
Mr. DULLES - Yes. I just wanted to get it for the record.
Mr. BELIN - You then ran into the Building, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - That is correct, sir.
Mr. BELIN - What did you see and what did you do as you ran into the building?
Mr. BAKER - As I entered this building, there was, it seems to me like there was outside doors and then there is a little lobby.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Mr. BAKER - And then there are some inner doors and another door you have to go through, a swinging door type.
As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "I am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into the swinging door.
 

After a simple cross reference of the images against the witnesses statements - it looks like Calvery got the jump on Patrolman Baker as he parked his bike - dismounted it while standing it up in the street - accessed the situation down the street for a moment while hearing the radio call that was made - and then while running to the steps of the TSBD there enters a woman running for the entrance of the building. All captured on film for those who wish to examine it carefully.

Hope the additional breakdown was something you found helpful. 

Yep.  

Very fast runner.  Ran up the grass and found her way to Elm Street Extension, and across it, in near world record time.  All the while "clutching something to her bosom."

--  Tommy

PS  Speaking of examining something closely, were you ever able to spot  'dark complected' Gloria Calvery standing with Karan Hicks and / or Carol Arnold on the grass right after the assassination in that photo you demanded I find for you?  And the photo showing them walking, not running, up the sidewalk towards the TSBD?  (You're welcome.)

Edited December 26, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Bill Miller]

5 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Yep.  

Very fast runner.  Ran up the grass and found her way to Elm Street Extension, and across it, in near world record time.  All the while "clutching something to her bosom."

--  Tommy

PS  Speaking of examining something closely, were you ever able to spot  'dark complected' Gloria Calvery standing with Karan Hicks and / or Carol Arnold on the grass right after the assassination in that photo you demanded I find for you?  And the photo showing them walking, not running, up the sidewalk towards the TSBD?  (You're welcome.)

 

Taking the numbers as they have been reported to be - Baker made it to the entrance of the TSBD within 20 seconds of the shooting. Let's do the math ...

From the moment of the last shot at Z313 - it took 9.6secs for the limo to disappear from view into the underpass using Zapruder's film as a time clock.

As Dave Wiegman's car turns onto Elm Street - his camera pans the crowd near the light and Baker's cycle is not yet parked along the curb. The line of people are visible in the first few frames of his film. As Wiegman jumps from the car and starts to run towards the knoll - he filmed what looks to be 8 of the 17 people that had been standing along the street when the shooting took place.  

 

Of those 8 out of 17 people ... the lady in question in the white top and black skirt (marked with a "K" in Robin's Zapruder film frame enlargement) is no longer at the curb. Meanwhile Baker is believed to be parking his motorcycle and pausing momentarily to assess the situation down the street. The Couch/Darnell films pick up Patrolman Baker in motion around the middle of the island and heading towards the TSBD. As Baker steps onto the extension - there is a woman seen coming from the left and running towards the steps. Baker appears to arrive to the steps ahead of Calvery/running woman.

A world class run would be 100 yards in 6 seconds. I don't see a 40 to 45 yard run in just under 20 seconds as impressive as you have attempted to make it out to be. No world class running time needed ... just an understanding of the time clock involved and the distance needed to travel.

And to wish to discuss Calvery as being the Hispanic/dark skinned looking woman as being Gloria Calvery is a waste of forum space and time at this point in light of knowing what Gloria Calvery really looked like. I will leave the 'two Calvery' conspiracy theory to those who cannot tell a dark skinned woman from a light skinned one. It makes as much sense as wanting to debate whether the dark skinned man on the south pasture is Roy Truly or not ....

 

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2016 by Bill Miller

[Thomas Graves]

Dear Oh-So Politic Mr. Miller,

Evidently you haven't noticed that "dark-skinned" Calvery's face is in the shade in that photo of her walking up the sidewalk with those two other gals.

Pity, that.

--  Tommy

PS  Don't you know it's against EF rules to denigrate another member's posts by suggesting, no matter how "subtlely," that they are "a waste of time and space"?

Do you think you're a moderator or something?

Edited December 26, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Robin Unger]

[Bill Miller]

1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Oh-So Politic Mr. Miller,

Evidently you haven't noticed that "dark-skinned" Calvery's face is in the shade in that photo of her walking up the sidewalk with those two other gals.

Pity, that.

--  Tommy

PS  Don't you know it's against EF rules to denigrate another member's posts by suggesting, no matter how "subtlely," that they are "a waste of time and space"?

Do you think you're a moderator or something?

Two things .....

1 -  Are you saying that the the woman with the very dark hair on the left is the woman on the right in this side by side illustration?  (Yes or No)

2 - Please cite the forum rule that says that someone cannot say the following, " And to wish to discuss Calvery as being the Hispanic/dark skinned looking woman as being Gloria Calvery is a waste of forum space and time at this point in light of knowing what Gloria Calvery really looked like "  ( I look forward to reading that rule )

[Thomas Graves]

Dear William,

The answer to your oh-so-well phrased rhetorical question is "probably."  I do see a likeness between Face-In-The-Shade-Woman and Younger-Gloria-For-Sure in all those high school photographs in which her face is well lit by either a camera's flash or full-on studio lights.  Oh yeah, and photographed straight-on rather than in semi-profile and with her face angled downward, too.

--  Tommy

PS  Your cute little defecating bull in another post reminds of when you and Miles Scull used to exchange graphic, juvenile insults.  

Edited December 27, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Bill Miller]

2 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear William,

The answer to your oh-so-well phrased rhetorical question is "probably."  I do see a likeness between Face-In-The-Shade-Woman and Younger-Gloria-For-Sure in all those high school photographs in which her face is well lit by either a camera's flash or full-on studio lights.  Oh yeah, and photographed straight-on rather than in semi-profile and with her face angled downward, too.

--  Tommy

PS  Your cute little defecating bull in another post reminds of when you and Miles Scull used to exchange graphic, juvenile insults.  

Glad you liked the bull - saves time from typing the initials "B S" which I saw in one of the post I had read.

Also, you forgot to cite the  rule that says that it is against the Education Forum Rules to state an opinion that 'to discuss the Hispanic/dark skinned looking woman as being Gloria Calvery is a waste of forum space and time at this point in light of knowing what Gloria Calvery really looked like.' You see, I think you are making that up. So again, cite the rule or file a report and James Gordon can find it for us if there is a such a rule.

Lastly, you gave no details as to why you think two images are of the same person. Having two eyes - a nose - and a mouth does not mean they are photos of the same woman. All you said was, "I do see a likeness between Face-In-The-Shade-Woman and Younger-Gloria-For-Sure ... ".  The wedding photo of Gloria was taken 3 months prior to the assassination - feel free to use it for your comparison if you like. So let me hear what likenesses they share in your opinion to help me better see it for myself.

Thanks!

Edited December 27, 2016 by Bill Miller

[Thomas Graves]

2 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Glad you liked the bull - saves time from typing the initials "B S" which I saw in one of the post I had read.

Also, you forgot to cite the  rule that says that it is against the Education Forum Rules to state an opinion that to discuss Calvery as being the Hispanic/dark skinned looking woman as being Gloria Calvery is a waste of forum space and time at this point in light of knowing what Gloria Calvery really looked like. You see, I think you are making that up. So again, cite the rule or file a report and James Gordon can find it for us.

Lastly, you gave no details as to why you think two images are of the same person. Having two eyes - a nose - and a mouth does not mean they are photos of the same woman. So let me hear what likenesses they share in your opinion.

Dear William,

I've already told you that, facially, they look to me like they could be the same person, especially when I take into consideration the fact that the photos were taken 3 or 4 years apart and were taken during a period of time in a young woman's life (from approx. 17 to 21) when, I suppose, she is still losing "baby fat" from her face, and also taking into consideration the factors I mentioned earlier: shade versus fairly harsh full-face lighting, semi-profile versus frontal, downward tilt versus straight ahead.  I like her basically roundish face, slightly pointed chin, high and curvy eyebrows, nose, cheeks, and probably a few other things as well.  A lot of "researchers" say she's too dark complected, not realizing her face is in the shade, and not taking into account the fact that her face is slightly "washed out" and pale-looking in the high school photos.

Should we take a poll?

--  Tommy.

Oh yeah!  And the fact that DCW is frowning while Glora Jean is smiling (and wearing glasses).

Edited December 27, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Bill Miller]

1 minute ago, Thomas Graves said:

 I like her basically roundish face, slightly pointed chin, high and curvy eyebrows, nose, cheeks, and probably a few other things as well. 

Let us start with the eyebrows that you mentioned. Are you saying that both women have the same "high and curvy" eyebrow shape? 

[Sandy Larsen]

 

Although it is true that alleged-Calvary's face in this photo is being shaded, the same is true of Hicks's face. Clearly alleged-Calvary has a dark complexion.

Yet in every photo that is known to be of Calvary she appears to be light complected.

Another difference is that alleged-Calvary in the photo above isn't wearing glasses. Yet in every photo that is known to be of Calvary she is wearing glasses.

 

Now, look at the size of Calvary's features in this photo. She has smallish eyes, nose, and especially lips. All are smaller than those of the woman she is standing with. (You may need to zoom in to see her eyes.)

Yet if you look at alleged-Calvary in the photo at the top of this post, you will see that her features are on the large side. Compare her eyes, nose, and lips with Hicks's and Reed's to get an idea.

I don't have all the photos of Calvary in front of me, but it seems that she is wearing a smallish hair style in all of them. Unlike the large hairstyle alleged-Calvary is wearing in the above photo.

All in all I see very little reason to believe the DCW and Calvary are the same woman.