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Robert Prudhomme

Did Gloria Calvery almost catch up to Marion Baker?

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I'm wondering how much time elapsed between this still

oswald%20and%20lovelady%20in%20the%20sam

and this still

vlcsnap-2015-05-15-11h16m34s82-1.png

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I'm wondering how much time elapsed between this still

oswald%20and%20lovelady%20in%20the%20sam

and this still

vlcsnap-2015-05-15-11h16m34s82-1.png

Robert,

How much time do you want?

Fifteen seconds? Twenty? Forty-five? A minute-and-a-half? What works best for you, Robert?

How far away do you think Running Woman was when she started running?

Did she run all the way from where she was standing during the motorcade?

PS I'm guessing 30 seconds.

What's your guess?

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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No, I would like to know exactly how much time elapsed between the two stills. From what I can see in the first still, Lovelady is standing on the upper steps, quite relaxed, and, like most people around him, does not appear to realize anything has gone seriously wrong with the motorcade.

I want to know how many seconds he and Shelley have to go from this relaxed state to being 25 steps down the Elm St. extension after, of course, running out to the concrete island and conversing with Gloria Calvery, who will need a few seconds to run up the street first.

P.S.

Why guess? Why not work out the exact time?

Edited by Robert Prudhomme

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No, I would like to know exactly how much time elapsed between the two stills. From what I can see in the first still, Lovelady is standing on the upper steps, quite relaxed, and, like most people around him, does not appear to realize anything has gone seriously wrong with the motorcade.

I want to know how many seconds he and Shelley have to go from this relaxed state to being 25 steps down the Elm St. extension after, of course, running out to the concrete island and conversing with Gloria Calvery, who will need a few seconds to run up the street first.

P.S.

Why guess? Why not work out the exact time?

Shelley and Lovelady could have fibbed a little in their affidavits and also gotten the sequence of events mixed up. The Couch / Darnell gif that Clive posted a few days ago shows "Shelley" and "Lovelady" apparently crossing over to "the park" (the extension of the 'island') after Running Woman has passed them.

G0yR7BN.gif

If so, then maybe that's when they had their conference with Gloria Calvery. Over there on the "island."

Regarding the timing, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out given the fact that Couch panned down towards the triple overpass and "caught" several cars, motorcycles, and known people in the general area of Elm Street and the Grassy Knoll.

Let us know what you come up with, Robert.

--Tommy :sun

PS What makes you think that Shelley spoke with Calvery on the concrete island and then walked partway down Elm Street Extension?

Maybe it was the other way around.

Or maybe they never spoke at all. Except at her wedding, of course.

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Clive,

Regarding your statement about "the other man" in post # 168,

I'm convinced that "the other man" is Lovelady because (among other things), you can see his distinctive combed-up-in-the-front hairdo in about half of the frames of the low-resolution gif you posted.

Shelley circled in red:

billshelley-2.jpg

--Tommy :sun

That is definitely Shelley, looking very sour (unhappy?) about being led to give his statement; or maybe that was just his natural expression.

This photo put me in mind of something Gary Mack wrote regarding Prayer Man. I believe it was his contribution to the "PM is Anyone but Oswald" campaign.

"On Sept. 19, 2013 Gary Mack wrote: The Prayer Man question has probably been answered. I recently sent the Couch and Darnell frames to Buell Frazier and asked what he thought. First, he wouldn’t confirm himself being on the top step because the image isn’t clear enough. He then re-confirmed that Lovelady and Shelley were out on the steps with him, just as he has always said, but he couldnt confirm Shelley, either, due to the image quality.

Next I asked about Shelley’s appearance and learned he was a little taller than Lovelady (who was 5’8”), had red hair and a slender build. When I asked if Shelley usually wore a coat and tie to work Buell said no, he “dressed daily in slacks and sport shirts.” And he repeated that he, Lovelady and Shelley stayed on the steps for “a short time” after the last shot, but he didn’t estimate how long.
So unless Buell Frazier is still part of the cover-up plot, TSBD “Miscellaneous Department” manager William Shelley, by elimination, must be Prayer Man. According to Shelley’s testimony, “I didn’t do anything for a minute” following the last shot, so the man was standing on the steps before, during and after the time Darnell and Couch filmed those brief scenes.
Gary Mack"
I guess the 6th Floor Museum doesn't have the photo of Shelley in a suit, eh? :)

Dear Robert,

Not sure what you're getting at regarding Shelley.

Can you see his distinctive hair style in the photo in which he's walking with Arce and Williams and Detective Brown to the police car?

Good! Well, that's a start at least.

If you look closely you can see that the man I claim is Shelley in Couch / Darnell has the same combed-up-in-front hairdoo in about half of the frames, which leads me to believe that we really are seeing that hairdo on him and not just "aberrations" or "artifacts" attendant to the film's development, poor resolution, etc.

Couch/Darnell

couchloveladyshelley7l8kc9.gif

Another good view of Shelley (L. and R.) and his hairdo (R.).

arcewilliamsarrestcrowufmz.gif

Credit: Gerda Dunckel

(Shelley on far right; Detective C. W. Brown in flashing red circle)

PlazaA.gif

--Tommy :sun

bumped

Edited by Thomas Graves

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For that to work, Calvery had to be up at the island within a few seconds of the last shot. Ditto for Lovelady and Shelley.

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For that to work, Calvery had to be up at the island within a few seconds of the last shot. Ditto for Lovelady and Shelley.

Dear Robert,

Why don't you spell out your current theory for us?

(There's nothing wrong with having a current theory, BTW.)

For example:

Where was Calvery during the motorcade?

Where was Shelley during the motorcade?

What were Shelley and Lovelady doing 10 seconds after the final shot? 20 seconds? 30 seconds? 40 seconds? 50 seconds? One minute? Two minutes? Three minutes? Four minutes? Five minutes?

Etc.

Thank you in advance,

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Thomas

We don't have a theory yet. That seems to be what gets most of us in trouble around here. We develop a theory and then refuse to see any other arguments.

I prefer to keep asking questions, and let the theory develop over time.

P.S.

Has anyone ever identified Shelley on the steps?

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Thomas

We don't have a theory yet. That seems to be what gets most of us in trouble around here. We develop a theory and then refuse to see any other arguments.

I prefer to keep asking questions, and let the theory develop over time.

P.S.

Has anyone ever identified Shelley on the steps?

Not that I know of, Robert.

Although some people seem to think (or perhaps used to think) that the guy wearing the coat and tie behind Frazier is Shelley, he honestly seems to me to be too broad-shouldered to be him. And the guy seems to be wearing a hat , too.

Molina said he was on the steps, so perhaps the guy behind Frazier is Molina.

Shelley was caught on film an hour or so later wearing his coat over his white shirt and tie. If Shelley is on the steps in Altgens or Wiegman or Couch/Darnell, I think he must not have been wearing his coat at the time.

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Tommy (& Robert, Clive et al),

Clive - first, thanks for the compliment on my findagrave memorial I made for her! I worked hard on that!

I'm just now reading this thread (I've been gone working on some major projects - down many rabbit holes! You'll see - fasten your seatbelts! :)

Tommy -- you are absolutely right about the woman hidden almost entirely behind and east of Alonzo! I blew up Altgens6 HUGE (and I do mean HUGE!) and looked where you said you could see a sliver of the other woman's face and hair there - it took a few seconds, but i found it! I could/can see some bushy dark blk hair and I even suddenly "saw" her left CAT EYE glasses frame sticking out!! I didn't see it until I pulled up her wedding announcement photo and put it up there to compare - then suddenly BAMMM!! Do you see it?! It has to be her! Great work on that - I never saw it before!

Robert - Those women are crammed in there like sardines by Millican, especially. We can see her better from the backside in Zapruder's view - but the reason we can't see her in Altgens is because of the extreme foreshortening of his lens - plus she must be standing back a bit, obviously. But she is there we can just catch a sliver, of her as Tommy pointed out. I do agree with your the point about the camera seeming to have a "slimming" effect on Baker - and if it made him look slimmer, it would make her look slimmer too (if we could all be so lucky!). Good catch!

Tommy -- As for earlier mentions in this thread of her in the graphics (mis)labeled "Calvary" (sic) with Reed and Hicks and calling her "dark complected".......I'm sorry, but that woman, whomever she is, is a relatively dark-skinned, middle-aged African-American woman! Calling her "dark-complected" (and not saying she's African-American) makes it sound like she's Mexican or Sicilian - or John Boehner drowning in his bottle of QT! LOL! (Actually, she looks a lot like the 60's singer Nancy Wilson, remember her?) There is no way that that middle-aged, black woman labeled "Calvary" [sic] is the actual 20 year old Gloria Jean Little Calvery - a pastey white woman!! You yourself, dug up her yearbook photos. She's pretty darned pale! I understand there's a wide continuum of "race" but, IMO, there's no way anyone could ever mistake her for a "dark-complected" Caucasian.

And like someone here said, are we even sure that "Reed" and "Hicks" ARE Reed and Hicks?? The person that made that graphic has had us thinking Gloria Calvery was a middleaged black woman, rather than a white 20 year old white woman - for years now!

Robert - I think it was you that said you didn't think she would move wander off to another place. Well, that very well could have happened! Maybe she did at first stand with Reed and Hicks (if that's even them) but then thought she'd get a better view if she was up by the Woodward group? Maybe she saw someone up there she knew and decided to move? It has happened before! Remember, it was Judy Johnson in the real "Truly group" who mentioned 2 ladies were with her in that lineup whom no one else in that group mentioned. It turns out, yes, they originally went out and stood in the Truly "line" but then either got bored or saw their other friends and went down near the Stemmons sign to watch the motorcade with them. Judy Johnson apparently didn't even realize they left. Ah... here it is, it was Judy Johnson! (I made a long write up of who was standing with whom in that group - and posted it in the Truly thread, which is how I discovered her error. Did you see that?):

"On November 22, 1963 I left my office, Room 200, Texas School
Book Depository Building, about 12 :15pm to go outside the building
to watch the President's Motorcade pass which was to pass along Elm
Street in front of the building. I was with Miss Jeannie Holt*, 2521
Pleasant Drive, Dallas, Texas, and Miss Stella Jacob*.....

We walked to the southwest corner of Elm and Houston
Streets and were joined by Mrs. Bonnie Richey...
Mrs. Carolyn Arnold...and Mrs. Betty Dragoo....

I was standing at this point on the sidewalk near

the edge of Elm Street at the time President John F. Kennedy was
shot."

Johnson is the only one in the Truly group who mentions Holt and Jacob being with them out by Elm in front of the TSBD. I found that Holt, Jacob and another woman Sharon Nelson (nee Simmons) were standing together on the sidewalk down near the Stemmon's sign, on the north side of Elm - they corroborated each other's statements about being together and not with the Truly Trio. I imagine in all the excitement - and the long line - they just were not even been missed by Johnson.

Now as for the findagrave memorial I made for her, and it saying Molina encountered her 20-30 secs. afterward in the lobby - that was MY ESTIMATE on it after reading Molina's testimony and from seeing the way she was booking it right behind Baker. (And Baker's time - if it's to be believed, that he ran up the steps and in the front door (which I tend to believe) is that he got to the steps about 15-20 secs. after the last shot. So, it was my estimate - that if she followed him up the steps and into the lobby she was ~10-15 feet behind him (it looked like in Darnell) so she probably got to the lobby in 20-30 seconds. And I had to write up a synopsis to post on findagrave - basically for the public who really don't care about or account for every little second of how this went down! So I estimated the best I could. Furthermore, I don't think 20-30 seconds is that far off the mark, if we assume she ran up the steps rt behind Baker and/or Truly (and if we assume Baker did run up the steps - which I do).

Now that estimate of mine of her being in the lobby and Molina seeing her come in ~ 20-30 seconds after the shots, was probably compounded by Molina's testimony where he said:

Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?
Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside. [granted he didn't see Baker enter]
Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.
Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards.
[by this I assumed he then went in the lobby after that 20-30 secs]
Mr. BALL. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before
you saw Truly go in?
Mr. MOLINA. No.
Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl. [if Truly came in 20-30 secs after the shots as Molina says above, and we know Calvery was not far behind him - or Baker and him - and Molina says he SAW her "come in" - then I assumed, pretty logically I think, that Molina had to have followed Truly in, and he was then almost immediately followed in by Calvery. He says he saw her come in so he had to have gone in just after Truly and before her. Does that make sense? ]
Mr. BALL. What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.

Ok so, point well taken that we don't know exactly when he was in the lobby, but she being hot on Baker's heels she had to have been in the lobby too maybe 5-10 sec later - where Molina said he saw her "come in" . (I'm aware you don't believe Baker even went up the steps then...)

As for the "other girl" he said she was "with" - that could've been Molina's assumption. She could have been any woman who came up the steps around that same time as Gloria and entered "with her". We see several women going up the steps in Darnell it could easily have been one of them. As I think it was Tommy pointed out, it doesn't mean they had to be pals or have run together from down near the Stemmons sign. We know that didn't happen - we only see one woman running behind Baker. And Molina goes on to say both of them were horrified, as if they shared the moment "together". They may have both been horrified - who wouldn't be - but that doesn't mean they were standing next to each other when JFK was shot - it was a collective horror.

As for Molina's story about running down to the grassy hill - to hear conversations. It seems I read somewhere else that he did head that way (toward the island? it's not clear where this little grassy hill area was) but didn't go far or stay long and turned around and came back. In fact, if I remember correctly it was Vickie Adams who testified she encountered him out front of the TSBD as she and Sandra came back around to the front of the bldg. (there journey was several minutes I think). So, my guess is he's confused the story in his mind or in the telling of it to the WC. I think he probably went in the lobby behind Baker and Truly, FIRST, where he saw Calvery who came in, logically, behind him. Then he must've decided to go out by the street or "grassy hill" - wherever that is - to see if he could learn anything else. That would jive with maybe 2 or 3 or 4 minutes after the shots based upon Vickie's timetable of running into him "out front". I find her to be a very trustworthy witness.

As for Shelley & Lovelady running down the Elm Extension - yes, I believe that is them in that animated gif. I think Gerda made that didn't she? She does great work. I agree with Tommy, it looks like them to me and it's existence catches them in their WC lie that they stayed on the front steps for 3 minutes - impossible! They are not seen there in Darnell! But Lovelady was seen there a little earlier in Wiegman (we don't see Shelley on the steps in Wiegman, IMO, because he's on the landing in the dark - Lovelady is a step or two down in the sun. Their whole "3 minute" fabrication was to make it look like Vickie and Sandra came down much later possibly AFTER Oswald! And if you recall in Shelley's very, very first statement - a Sheriff's Affidavit (?), he said he went inside to call his wife! From then on - like w/ Baker and Truly - it was one changing story after another! All to pin Oswald in the sniper's nest and the 2nd floor lunchroom (didn't happen!)

So, yes, I did make the (I think, logical) assumption that Molina was in the lobby ~20-30 secs after the shots and saw Gloria "come in" hot on Baker's heels maybe 5-10 seconds behind him. I can't imagine she would be running like a banjee after him only to stop when she reached the bottom step! And as for her route to the steps...it appears she was running down the Elm Ext. so, IMO, if that's her on Elm next Alonzo, she must've cut up the little hill and gone over that low wall and run down the Extension - the hypotenuse of the right triangle - not the longer Elm St sidewalk route.

Regardless, of how it went down second by second, there was no ill intent to mislead anyone nor any conspiratorial deviousness involved in my writing up her findagrave post! For godsakes - I'm NOT a LNer! And I remember telling you guys *I* wrote it up - I was quite happy with my hard work - and that I had used some of the photos you guys had found of her found before I even joined that thread (and I also used photos I found of her grave marker and wedding announcement) to make her memorial. So yes, that's my handiwork.

Later! Time for lunch and finishing and posting my little project...
:eat

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Robert - I think it was you that said you didn't think she would move wander off to another place. Well, that very well could have happened! Maybe she did at first stand with Reed and Hicks (if that's even them) but then thought she'd get a better view if she was up by the Woodward group? Maybe she saw someone up there she knew and decided to move? It has happened before! Remember, it was Judy Johnson in the real "Truly group" who mentioned 2 ladies were with her in that lineup whom no one else in that group mentioned. It turns out, yes, they originally went out and stood in the Truly "line" but then either got bored or saw their other friends and went down near the Stemmons sign to watch the motorcade with them. Judy Johnson apparently didn't even realize they left. Ah... here it is, it was Judy Johnson! (I made a long write up of who was standing with whom in that group - and posted it in the Truly thread, which is how I discovered her error. Did you see that?):

"On November 22, 1963 I left my office, Room 200, Texas School

Book Depository Building, about 12 :15pm to go outside the building

to watch the President's Motorcade pass which was to pass along Elm

Street in front of the building. I was with Miss Jeannie Holt*, 2521

Pleasant Drive, Dallas, Texas, and Miss Stella Jacob*.....

We walked to the southwest corner of Elm and Houston

Streets and were joined by Mrs. Bonnie Richey...

Mrs. Carolyn Arnold...and Mrs. Betty Dragoo....

I was standing at this point on the sidewalk near

the edge of Elm Street at the time President John F. Kennedy was

shot."

Johnson is the only one in the Truly group who mentions Holt and Jacob being with them out by Elm in front of the TSBD. I found that Holt, Jacob and another woman Sharon Nelson (nee Simmons) were standing together on the sidewalk down near the Stemmon's sign, on the north side of Elm - they corroborated each other's statements about being together and not with the Truly Trio. I imagine in all the excitement - and the long line - they just were not even been missed by Johnson.

Gloria Jeanne Holt, statement to FBI’s SAs Eugene P. Petrakis & A. Raymond Switzer, 18 March 1964:

Left the TSBD “at approximately 12.10 p.m.”

“I left the Depository building and walked down toward the Stemmons expressway underpass west of the building approximately fifty yards and took up a position on the curb on the south side of Elm Street to await the presidential procession. I was accompanied by Sharon Simmons, now Mrs Nelson, and Stella Jacob…I was still standing on the curb at the time the president was shot.” 22H652

Stella Mae Jacob, statement to the FBI’s SAs Eugene P. Petrakis & A. Raymond Switzer, 18 March 1964:

Left the TSBD “at approximately 12.00 p.m.”

“I left the Depository building and walked down toward the Stemmons expressway underpass west of the building approximately fifty yards and took up a position on the curb on the south side of Elm Street...I was accompanied by Sharon Simmons, now Mrs Nelson, and Jeanne Holt…I was still standing on the curb at the time President John F. Kennedy was shot,” 22H655.

Sharon Nelson (nee Simmons), statement to the FBI’s SA E.J. Robertson, 18 March 1964:

Left the TSBD “at about” 12.20 p.m.

“At the time President Kennedy was shot I was standing on the sidewalk on Elm Street midway between the Texas School Book Depository Building and the underpass on Elm Street. I was with Jeannie Holt…and Stella Jacob…,” 22H665.

The presence of these three south Elmers in a group, in the immediate aftermath of the assassination, was confirmed by Deputy Sheriff C.L. “Lummie” Lewis:

“I ran around the corner and came across Houston Street to Elm Street to the Park. I saw some people there. I began to talk to them getting names and information. I talked to the following named people: 1) Simmons, 2) Holt, 3) Jacobs. See statements taken from all three named people,” 19H526-7

We know the FBI comprehended the threat posed by the presence of these three women to the Z-fake because a) of the omission of any reference to the side of Elm Street from which Simmons observed the motorcade; and B) the near-simultaneous attempt, by the same FBI man who interviewed Simmons, but not Holt and Jacob, to relocate Jean Hill (from the south curb back towards the TSBD).

By separating Simmons from Holt and Jacob, then relocating Hill, the FBI reduced five women on the south curb of Elm facing Zapruder, to two - with Moorman & Hill temporarily supplanted by Jacob & Holt. That this effort was subsequently abandoned is neither here nor there - what we see is an aborted cover-up, which is of great value in and of itself.

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Dear Mr. Rigby,

Could you please post some photos of Simmons, Holt, and Jacob?

Or did the bad guys alter all of them?

The photos, I mean.

Thanks,

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Dear Mr. Rigby,

Could you please post some photos of Simmons, Holt, and Jacob?

Or did the bad guys alter all of them?

The photos, I mean.

Thanks,

--Tommy :sun

Delighted to at least partially assist, doubting Thomas. Here is Holt from the ROKC website thread, Minor Witnesses, courtesy of Stan Dane, who, to his additional credit, correctly identifies the side (south) of Elm on which she took temporary residence:

http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13242379-minor-witnesses

So, in the spirit of amicable reciprocity, a question for a question: where are the group of Holt, Jacob, and Simmons on the south curb of Elm facing Zapruder?

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Paul

Are you saying there were three more witnesses on the south side of Elm St. that were removed from the Zapruder film?

As the FBI reports for these women were all written by the same agent on the same day, are you sure he didn't get mixed up and write "south" instead of "north"?

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Paul

Are you saying there were three more witnesses on the south side of Elm St. that were removed from the Zapruder film?

As the FBI reports for these women were all written by the same agent on the same day, are you sure he didn't get mixed up and write "south" instead of "north"?

Yes; and there was a fourth female witness removed from the south curb. In citing her intial testimony, I touch upon the issue has kept troubling you in this thread - that is, the question of time.

Mrs CHARLES HESTER, 2619 Keyhold Street, Irving, Texas, advised that sometime around 12:30 p.m., on November 22, 1963, she and her husband were standing along the street at a place immediately preceding the underpass on Elm Street, where President Kennedy was shot. Mrs HESTER advised she heard two loud noises which sounded like gunshots, and she saw President KENNEDY slump in the seat of the car he was riding in. Her husband grabbed then grabbed her and shoved her to the ground. Shortly thereafter they went across to the north side of the street on an embankment in an attempt to gain shelter. She stated that she believes she and her husband actually had been in the direct line of fire. She did not see anyone with a gun when the shots were fired and stated she could not furnish any information as to exactly where the shots came from. After the President’s car had pulled away from the scene, she and her husband proceeded to their car and left the area as she was very upset,” 24H523

You're rightly puzzled by the problem of timings - when did such-and-such a witness move to where and at what speed. The problem partly arises because time - in the form of frames - were excised from the Z fake, condensing the execution sequence, with important consequences for what followed.

As to the question of an "innocent" mistake by the FBI man in his location of the group of three, look again at my earlier posting - this "error" was not isolated, but rather part of a series of moves designed to solve the problem posed by the Z fake: how to make reality, in the form of too many witnesses on the south curb, conform to the cinematic deception.

Edited by Paul Rigby

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