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By the end of November, 1963, J. Edgar Hoover’s final story was that the 6.5 Carcano with a 4x18 power scope was priced by Klein’s at $19.95 ($21.45 including postage).  But the $12.78 mail order rifle was reported nationwide by news and television reporters for an entire week after the assassination of JFK (11/23/63 through 11/29/63).  If the FBI had REALLY collected and analyzed legitimate mail order documents, which obviously would have included the sale price, by the day after President Kennedy’s murder, and if the FBI had REALLY determined that the handwriting was that of “Lee Harvey Oswald,” on the mail order documents, isn’t it AMAZING that they didn’t even come close to settling on the final price of the rifle with scope until nearly a week later!  More and more magic!

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17 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

No, Sandy, the phrase "Any Bank" is not the literal requirement.... any bank means INSERT the name of any bank - as in The First Natl Bank of Chicago.  I work at a bank and posted an endorsement above already.   Go to a bank, any bank in America, and ask someone who knows.

Jason,

Please note the phrase "ANY BANK, BANKER, OR TRUST CO." in the endorsement on the top right photostat below of the 1963 voucher to Lee Harvey Oswald from the Texas Employment Commission.

State.jpg

 

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For the record, here are a few of the documents demonstrating how the Warren Commission lied to us about the 6.5 Carcano that allegedly killed President Kennedy. To look even more deeply into the untruths the Warren Commission presented, see...

Oswald Did NOT Purchase a Rile from Klein's

And to look deeper yet, see...

The Mail Order Rifle

In the meantime, here are the simplest documents to understand.  It should only take minutes to see what is going on here.  Following the money is easy....  Everything is under $25!  The phony money order (see top right of the image below) is for $21.45.


Money%20Order.jpg

But the FBI for an ENTIRE WEEK said the rifle that killed JFK cost $12.78!

 

Airtight.jpg

 

Enmeshes.jpg

 

Berkshire_Eagle.jpg

 

FBI informant/U.S. Postal Inspector Harry Holmes believed the Carcano was sold, WITH SCOPE, for $12.78,

and that's what confused J. Edgar Hoover!

 

Klein's-Ads.jpg

 

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21 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Please note the phrase "ANY BANK, BANKER, OR TRUST CO." in the endorsement on the top right photostat below of the 1963 voucher to Lee Harvey Oswald from the Texas Employment Commission.

So what?

First National Bank in Chicago most certainly satisfies the "any bank, banker or trust company" requirement. As far as I can see, the only argument the conspiracy theorists can make now in support of the idea that additional markings are still needed on the CE788 money order is to argue that this requirement was not met....

"The endorsement of the sending bank should be dated and should show the American Bankers Association transit number of the sending bank in prominent type on both sides."

But, as I stated two or three years ago in a similar "Money Order" thread, it's quite possible that the Hidell money order was part of a bulk transfer of postal money orders which was accompanied by a cash letter (deposit ticket), which could very well have had those stamps on it (i.e., the date and the ABA transit numbers).

To believe the Hidell money order is fraudulent at this stage in the lengthy PMO discussion is silly, especially when we KNOW it was found just exactly where it should have been found --- in Alexandria/Washington --- on 11/23/63.

And we also have information in CD75 coming from a First National Bank Vice President (Wilmouth) verifying that First National DID handle the $21.45 Postal Money Order in question. (Unless CTers want to argue that the $21.45 M.O. mentioned by Wilmouth is a DIFFERENT $21.45 M.O. entirely.)

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CD75.png

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 The-Hidell-Money-Order-Logo.png
 

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JIM HARGROVE SAID:

Warren Commission loyalists want us to believe that this uncashed, unendorsed money order is legitimate proof of purchase by “A. Hidell” of a rifle that was shipped to Hidell via a Dallas P.O. Box under the name of “Oswald,” contrary to U.S. postal regulations, for a price of… well… first it was $12.78 for a rifle without a scope as pointed out by dozens of American dailies for nearly a week after the assassination.

As one example of many, a Nov. 23 article by the New York Times wire service, picked up in daily newspapers in many cities, including the Nov. 24 Salt Lake Tribune, reported the following: “Handwriting, analyzed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in Washington as Oswald's on an assumed-name order to a Chicago mail order house last March 20 for a $12.78 rifle, similar to the assassination weapon.”

When the saga of Dial Ryder and the scope didn't pan out, the FBI apparently lost all its reports of a $12.78 rifle without a scope. But, like magic, "Oswald's handwriting" suddenly appeared on a new and improved money order, this time for $21.45 for a rifle with a scope.

A magic money order to purchase a magic rifle that shot magic bullets. It was truly an age of miracles!


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Jim,

There's no "magic" or "miracles" of any kind involved here at all. And there's no sinister or underhanded cover-up involved either. The reason why the media was reporting the $12.78 cost for the rifle (sans the scope) was quite simple --- they were simply referring to the Klein's ads that were currently running in various magazines in November of 1963. Between the time Oswald ordered his rifle in March '63 and the time of the assassination eight months later, the price of the Italian carbine (without the scope attached) in the Klein's advertisements had decreased by 10 cents, from $12.88 to $12.78.

And it's highly unlikely that any of the people in the press still had ready access to any Klein's magazine ads from eight or nine months earlier. So they were merely reporting on the CURRENT price of the gun in their TV and newspaper reports, without bothering to factor in the proper "With Scope" price. Big deal.

And even Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry told reporters on 11/23/63:

"I believe the gun was supposed to cost twelve dollars and seventy-eight cents, I believe. I believe it was advertised in some magazine for that." (See the video clip below.)

http://dvp-video-audio-archive.blogspot.com/2012/03/interviews-with-jesse-curry.html

As for any "new and improved money order, this time for $21.45 for a rifle with a scope" --- that's a lot of baloney too, because as early as 11/23/63, we find documentation showing that a money order that was definitely handled by Klein's Sporting Goods AND the First National Bank of Chicago in the amount of $21.45 was recovered at the Federal Records Center in Alexandria, Virginia, on the night of November 23rd, the day after the assassination. This documentation is all laid out in a goodly amount of detail in Commission Document #75 and Commission Document #87.

So, Jim Hargrove, do you think that the FBI and Secret Service reports that appear in CD75 and CD87 are phony documents of some kind? And do you think that a money order in the amount of $21.45 was NOT actually found at the Records Center in Alexandria at all?

Edited by David Von Pein
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24 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

So what?

First National Bank in Chicago most certainly satisfies the "any bank, banker or trust company" requirement.

David.... The

Pay to the Order of
The First National Bank of Chicago

stamp is just Klein's rubber stamp.  Please show me the endorsement of the sending bank(s), along with the ABA transit number(s), which Sandy has proved were required to be printed on both sides of the Magic Money Order by federal regulations.  

Have I missed all this?  All I see below are dated FBI initals.  Where are the sending bank endorsements and the ABA transit numbers?  Please point to them on the image below.

Money%20Order.jpg

 

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Jim,

Repeating what I said in an earlier post on this page....

As far as I can see, the only argument the conspiracy theorists can make now in support of the idea that additional markings are still needed on the CE788 money order is to argue that this requirement was not met....

"The endorsement of the sending bank should be dated and should show the American Bankers Association transit number of the sending bank in prominent type on both sides."

But, as I stated two or three years ago in a similar "Money Order" thread, it's quite possible that the Hidell money order was part of a bulk transfer of postal money orders which was accompanied by a cash letter (deposit ticket), which could very well have had those stamps on it (i.e., the date and the ABA transit numbers).

To believe the Hidell money order is fraudulent at this stage in the lengthy PMO discussion is silly, especially when we KNOW it was found just exactly where it should have been found --- in Alexandria/Washington --- on 11/23/63.

And we also have information in CD75 coming from a First National Bank Vice President (Wilmouth) verifying that First National DID handle the $21.45 Postal Money Order in question. (Unless CTers want to argue that the $21.45 M.O. mentioned by Wilmouth is a DIFFERENT $21.45 M.O. entirely.)

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31 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

it's quite possible that the Hidell money order was part of a bulk transfer

Please offer even the slightest bit of evidence for your theory.

Please show how Federal regulations permitted your "bulk transfer," without bank endorsements AND/OR ABA transit numbers shown, on BOTH sides of the Money Order,  as required by Federal regulations.   Awaiting your EVIDENCE!

Edited by Jim Hargrove
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5 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

.... as I stated two or three years ago in a similar "Money Order" thread, it's quite possible that the Hidell money order was part of a bulk transfer of postal money orders which was accompanied by a cash letter (deposit ticket), which could very well have had those stamps on it (i.e., the date and the ABA transit numbers).

 

David,

The federal regulation clearly states that the cash items (checks, PMOs, etc.) are to be stamped. There is no provision for stamping the cash letter (deposit slip) instead.

 

 

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4 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Perhaps banker Jason Ward can shed some light on the concept of "cash letters" and "bulk transfers" of U.S. Postal Money Orders.

Sorry, we barely submit anything in paper form anymore and although I recall bulk transfers from earlier in my career, I don't have any details to share.   I respond to you because you have a grip on rational thought -however- the whole topic should be at most two posts long: a non-banker asking for a banker's opinion followed by an answer in the next post.  If you don't believe ME, ok, simply print out the back of the money order and bring it to your bank and ask if this is a valid endorsement.   The fact is with a large commercial depositor, no one at any stage of processing is checking the endorsement - it could be a scribble, it could be in Chinese, it could be missing entirely.   The endorsement means almost nothing (in this case), likewise any "missing" endorsement or ABA number means nothing.   The Fed promulgated guidelines and has since time began never enforced them in routine daily transactions.  Then and now processing occurs without signatures, with missing dates, and with all kinds of arguably invalid attributes.   To imagine Klein's is in on the assassination is why CTers are seen as the lunatic fringe.

Imagining you can read a tiny snippet of federal regulations and become an expert on check processing without any bank experience is ridiculous.

Edited by Jason Ward
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4 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

From the 1960 regulations:

1960-FRB-Regulations--Number-12.png

 

 

Right! That is the only thing said about the preparation of cash letters (deposit slips) in the regulation. Note that there is nothing said about bank stamps being located on the letters.

In fact, the purpose of this particular provision in the regulation is to state that a cash letter submitted need NOT include descriptions of the individual items. Only amounts. Which is the reason the sending bank itself is admonished to keep a record of all item descriptions in order to reconstruct the items sent in the event the items get lost.

 

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5 hours ago, David Von Pein said:


From the 1960 regulations:

FRB-Regulations-1969.png

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http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/10/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1058.html


David,

That provision -- that the Federal Reserve Bank may accept a non-endorsed item -- is not found in the 1960 regulations. It was introduced in 1969. (See here.) So it is irrelevant to the rifle PMO.

 

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From the 11/24/63 UPI story shown graphically above (emphasis added):

Police chief Jesse Curry wove police evidence tighter around Oswald.  He said the FBI reported that Oswald bought the Italian 6.5 Carcano bolt-action rifle with a telescopic sight from a Chicago mail order house for $12.78.

The handwriting on the mail order was Oswald’s, Curry said.

This information could only have come from the FBI.  Harry Holmes had indeed shown around an ad for a $12.78 Carcano from Field & Stream, but the conclusion that Oswald’s handwriting was on the order for the $12.78 Carcano could only have come from the FBI.  It was nearly a week before the FBI publicly fixed Hoover’s error in thinking the $12.78 rifle included a scope.  It was fixed by simply creating an uncashed, unprocessed Magic Money Order® (most probably with Harry Holmes’ help), and by simply stating a corrected price for Klein’s mail order Carcano, which was $19.95 ($21.45 including postage).

WC loyalists are simply unable to explain the obvious absence of sending bank endorsements and ABA transit numbers, required to be stamped on BOTH SIDES of the Magic Money Order.  All they can do is speculate without offering any evidence whatsoever.

This is just the tip of the iceberg of all that is wrong with the so-called evidence for the Magic Rifle®. For one other example, Chief Curry also told reporters that "handwriting, analyzed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation in Washington as Oswald's, on an assumed name order to a Chicago mail order house last March 20 for a $12.78 rifle, similar to the assassination weapon."  Curry's information, that the postal money order used to pay for the rifle was issued on MARCH 20, 1963, is exactly what the FBI told the Secret Service and their informant Harry Holmes. If the FBI really determined the handwriting on a March 20 order coupon to be Oswald's, isn’t it remarkable that the WC eventually concluded that the order that was sent to Kleins by Oswald/Hidell from Dallas a week before it was allegedly created?

For far more details on the FBI’s dramatically evolving story on the Magic Rifle, see:

Oswald Did NOT Purchase a Rifle from Kleins

and 

MAIL ORDER RIFLE

Both write-ups are by John Armstrong.

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