Al Carrier Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 To be close at the fire, surpress and handle evidence, control the aftermath, make sure everything is going right, and if not, take corrective action. This was not yet the age of Internet and mobile phones. Frankly, I believe that if the planners would NOT have been there, a lot more would have gone wrong. (Wim) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Wim, A covert operation such as this would be carried out by as few persons as possible and they would be the assault team. I firmly believe their were three teams firing on the motorcade in DP and that in itself is a large number considering the size of the plaza. The planners would hand down the order to a person who would have access to such teams. This person would be provided with the details of the route and it would be passed onto the teams who would then study the area within days of the assault and determine the ambush location and what would be needed for it. In all likelihood, anyone of importance on the planning level would not even know where it would go down. If it would have gone wrong in DP and the assault would not have been carried out, there would have been plans for another try, as we see Dallas was the third plan in the three week period leading to the assassination. If it would have went bad after the shots rang out, it is my opinion that it would have been too late to correct it and there would have been several dead Dallas Police Officers left in the plaza. To believe in the look-a-likes as many do, then they would have exposed themselves without cause. And to believe they were the likes of Lou Conein, GHW Bush, Maj Gen Lansdale, etc, is rediculous. The persons in DP involved in this could not be asssociated with the government and would be eliminated within days of the hit. That is reality. Al[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Simkin Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 A covert operation such as this would be carried out by as few persons as possible and they would be the assault team. I firmly believe their were three teams firing on the motorcade in DP and that in itself is a large number considering the size of the plaza. The planners would hand down the order to a person who would have access to such teams. This person would be provided with the details of the route and it would be passed onto the teams who would then study the area within days of the assault and determine the ambush location and what would be needed for it. In all likelihood, anyone of importance on the planning level would not even know where it would go down. If it would have gone wrong in DP and the assault would not have been carried out, there would have been plans for another try, as we see Dallas was the third plan in the three week period leading to the assassination. If it would have went bad after the shots rang out, it is my opinion that it would have been too late to correct it and there would have been several dead Dallas Police Officers left in the plaza. To believe in the look-a-likes as many do, then they would have exposed themselves without cause. And to believe they were the likes of Lou Conein, GHW Bush, Maj Gen Lansdale, etc, is rediculous. The persons in DP involved in this could not be asssociated with the government and would be eliminated within days of the hit. That is reality. Great post. This is how it would have been done. It is possible that someone like Morales might have been there to coordinate the operation. However, it is highly unlikely that anyone senior to Morales would have been anywhere near Dallas on the day of the assassination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wim Dankbaar Posted November 18, 2004 Author Share Posted November 18, 2004 Okay Al and John, great posts. Have it your way, let's shutdown this thread. It's ridiculous. It's also ridiculous that Howard Hunt, Luis Posada, Felix Rodriguez, Orlando Bosch, Frank Sturgis, Guillermo Novo were in Dallas, or are associated with the government. The whole JFK assassination had nothing to do with the government. Their pardons have nothing to do with the government either. It's just coincidence and sheer luck. Wim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Carrier Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 Okay Al and John, great posts.Have it your way, let's shutdown this thread. It's ridiculous. It's also ridiculous that Howard Hunt, Luis Posada, Felix Rodriguez, Orlando Bosch, Frank Sturgis, Guillermo Novo were in Dallas, or are associated with the government. The whole JFK assassination had nothing to do with the government. Their pardons have nothing to do with the government either. It's just coincidence and sheer luck. Wim <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Wim, May I suggest that you take a deep breath and calm down. You are trying to make connections to the assassination on persons who were ruthless and had a hatred to Kennedy but have the intelligence of a snail. I know many operational persons who were active for the period of '60-'83 and beyond who were called upon for unsavory tasks but would not be trusted with something of this magnitude beyond a day, let alone 40+ years. Motive does not mean they would be used. Operatives of the magnitude of DP 11/22/63 would be professionals who would be eliminated after their use was considered accomplished. They would have no motive, aside from carrying out an order. They would be shielded from outside operational personnel and would simply carry out their assignment and then disappear. You believe in Tosh. Maybe you should ask him about who I am talking about. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 (edited) Al, Aren't you describing a military covert operation? I have no doubt that a hit planned and carried out by the military would go down exactly as you say. But there is plenty of evidence that this was not a military operation in Dallas. The military's direct role in all this could be basically confined to cleaning up afterwards with a sham autopsy back in Washington. There is evidence that the ambush in Dallas may have been carried out by anti-Castro Cuban exiles, managed by CIA operatives, and there was some sloppy shooting involved. There is also photographic evidence that some operatives connected to the CIA and anti-Castro Cubans were there to see it, if they weren't directly involved, from a street corner, as ill advised as it may seem. They wanted to be there and have suffered no consequences for it, nor did they expect any, because they knew the government would protect them and they had nothing to fear. There is little doubt in my mind that the black man seen with a rifle in a TSBD window was a Cuban shooter (probably Herminio Diaz Garcia), not a sniper from any branch of the military. There is little doubt in my mind that the black man on the sidewalk who held up a fist or hand as the limo went by was a Cuban and not a military man, and if not simply a signaler may have been a potential walk-up shooter. It made sense to use Cubans in this killing if the intent was to blame Cubans (that is, Castro) for it, for an invasion of Cuba. Any Cuban shooter, if killed or captured (and eliminated a la Oswald) was a potential patsy who could be tied to Castro as a double agent or whatever. In sum, I think the shooting differed from a military operation such as you describe because it was not a military operation. It was carried out by some fearless Cubans and arrogant rogue federal agents who took all the risks, with the military and powers that be having to step in and cover up in a rather haphazard fashion when Oswald got taken alive and a lone nut scenario was put into effect. Ron Edited November 18, 2004 by Ron Ecker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wim Dankbaar Posted November 18, 2004 Author Share Posted November 18, 2004 (edited) I'm not trying to make connections Al. The connections are there. It seems we can hardly agree on anything. This is again the case with this issue. I believe your expertise and assumptions blocking an objective judgement. Felix Rodriguez was involved in operations of similar magnitude, like tracking down and killing Che Guevara, the CIA drugrunning from South East Asia under Ted Shackley (another Bush friend) and later from Central and South America, , Guillermo Novo was involved in the murder of Orlando Letelier and the coup against Allende in Chile, as was David Atlee Philllips. Posada Carrilles worked alongside Rodriguez in Iran Contra (who was their boss?) and with Orlando Bosch he blew up a cuban airline killing 73 passengers. Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis did Watergate You may proclaim these are operations of lesser magnitude, you may proclaim these people are not professionals but rather dummies with the IQ of snails, you may proclaim they are not associated with the Government , you may proclaim they had nothing to do with Dallas 1963, you may even proclaim they do not directly tie in with George Bush ........ as long as I may proclaim that I happen to disagree with you. Wim PS: So Johnny Roselli was not involved in the assassination? Otherwise he would have been killed within a day, instead of 1976? To what extent do you believe Tosh by the way? People like Eladio del Valle and David Ferrie were just coincidental deaths? Charles Rogers killed his parents just because he felt like it? Morales is a candidate for you, right? Why took he so long to be killed, despite talking? Was he a professional or also a snail? Edited November 18, 2004 by Wim Dankbaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanet Clark Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 (edited) Now this gets to the heart of the debate. What happened and who was involved? Wim's link reminded me of the FBI memo's central assumption, that George Bush of the CIA was a known authority on the mood of the Cuban exile community in Miami in late 1963. That is a fact. John and Al have good points, but we must not bend the evidence to what we EXPECT a covert executive sanction to be, we must look at what actually happened. This is about POWER. The fact that the lookalikes were there means they were participants, brazen activists. The Secret Service motorcade took a sweeping side street detour, slowed to a crawl, slower than 10 miles an hour, and then volley after volley struck the President, the Governor and the vehicle....planes flew in and out, witnesses were murdered, people told improbable tales, so what are we to make of that? The people who appear in the photos were showing solidarity, and complicating the job of researchers for years to come. They were participant witnesses, sucked into compromising proximity, much like the members of P2, who gave Licio Gelli compromising material about themselves...to be in Dealey was a sign of POWER, to be in the know, to be there when the changing of the guard occurred. Sure, a tight squad of deniable and expendable mercenaries would be Standard Operating Procedure, but that is not what happened...they all shared responsibility, just like they would share power after the renegade Kennedy was eliminated...this was theater, intimidation and a grand public power play, and the more the merrier. The lookalikes really do look like the principals, and GHW Bush is one of the principals. By drawing in a large group and mildly exposing all of them, the planners showed their power, their cunning, their reach...we wish it hadn't happened, we may even wish that only one guy did it, or a team of angry CUbans or Mafiosos did it, but that is just not the case. The evidence shows otherwise... Shanet (it must be late November again) Edited November 18, 2004 by Shanet Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Plumlee Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 To be close at the fire, surpress and handle evidence, control the aftermath, make sure everything is going right, and if not, take corrective action. This was not yet the age of Internet and mobile phones. Frankly, I believe that if the planners would NOT have been there, a lot more would have gone wrong. (Wim) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Wim, A covert operation such as this would be carried out by as few persons as possible and they would be the assault team. I firmly believe their were three teams firing on the motorcade in DP and that in itself is a large number considering the size of the plaza. The planners would hand down the order to a person who would have access to such teams. This person would be provided with the details of the route and it would be passed onto the teams who would then study the area within days of the assault and determine the ambush location and what would be needed for it. In all likelihood, anyone of importance on the planning level would not even know where it would go down. If it would have gone wrong in DP and the assault would not have been carried out, there would have been plans for another try, as we see Dallas was the third plan in the three week period leading to the assassination. If it would have went bad after the shots rang out, it is my opinion that it would have been too late to correct it and there would have been several dead Dallas Police Officers left in the plaza. To believe in the look-a-likes as many do, then they would have exposed themselves without cause. And to believe they were the likes of Lou Conein, GHW Bush, Maj Gen Lansdale, etc, is rediculous. The persons in DP involved in this could not be asssociated with the government and would be eliminated within days of the hit. That is reality. Al[/i] <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The previous post should be noticed: It takes one to know one. This was a well planned hit and did not just pop to the surface overnight; an operation ran by a few 'good old buddy' type personal who just decided one day to kill a President because they were pissed. Covert OPS don't work that way.These assault teams, three in all were "shadow personal" to be used once and then past into the voids of lost and none existence operations. There was or is a world out there that the average 8 to 5 personal can even begun to comprehend. We have to look beyond the norm and forget the land of names and faces. These assassins were a special breed. A hit and disappear team; a team drifting through that plaza much like a vapor. Years later these same type teams used to prowl the jungles of southeast Asia and Central America. To find them is like chasing a shadow. By the time you see their hit, they are gone and your left scratching your head wondering which way they went. Thats 'Black Ops" Its a specialty. Some take pride in it even today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 Wim... for once I am in complete agreement with what you say. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Is this view based on the evidence or is it just a deep prejudice against Bush? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> John...there is a ton of evidence on the BUSH CRIME FAMILY. Do a Google search. I have studied the Bushes for nearly ten years. Yes, I am prejudiced against CRIMINALS. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Simkin Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 John...there is a ton of evidence on the BUSH CRIME FAMILY. Do a Google search. I have studied the Bushes for nearly ten years. Yes, I am prejudiced against CRIMINALS. I am also prejudiced against the Bush family (especially the current one in power). I also accept they are a family of crooks. However, I will refrain from agreeing that the Bush family were involved in the assassination of JFK until I see the evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wim Dankbaar Posted November 19, 2004 Author Share Posted November 19, 2004 (edited) Jack, Talking about George W. , do you think that Billy Lord was lying, or do you you think he was succedfully intimidated and discredited? Wim Edited November 19, 2004 by Wim Dankbaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wim Dankbaar Posted November 19, 2004 Author Share Posted November 19, 2004 (edited) Does anyone know about the whereabouts of Desmond Fitzgerald and Charles Cabell on 11/22/1963? Wim Edited November 19, 2004 by Wim Dankbaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Gratz Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 Does anyone know about the whereabouts of Desmond Fitzgerald and Charles Cabell on 11/22/1963?Wim <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Although many early reports had Fitzgerald with Cubela in Paris on 11/22/1963, apparently Fitzgerald was in the DC area having lunch when he heard the news. See the book, The Best Men by Evan Thomas re Fitzgerald's activities after the assassination. Do not know about Cabell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 Jack,Talking about George W. , do you think that Billy Lord was lying, or do you you think he was succedfully intimidated and discredited? Wim <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I believe that Lord was telling the truth about Dubya pressuring him on instructions from his father. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 Tosh, These assassins were a special breed. A hit and disappear team; a team drifting through that plaza much like a vapor. This was a good post. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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