"Bush killed Kennedy"

[Richard J. Smith]

"Aren't you describing a military covert operation? I have no doubt that a hit planned and carried out by the military would go down exactly as you say. But there is plenty of evidence that this was not a military operation in Dallas. The military's direct role in all this could be basically confined to cleaning up afterwards with a sham autopsy back in Washington. There is evidence that the ambush in Dallas may have been carried out by anti-Castro Cuban exiles, managed by CIA operatives, and there was some sloppy shooting involved. There is also photographic evidence that some operatives connected to the CIA and anti-Castro Cubans were there to see it, if they weren't directly involved, from a street corner, as ill advised as it may seem. They wanted to be there and have suffered no consequences for it, nor did they expect any, because they knew the government would protect them and they had nothing to fear.

There is little doubt in my mind that the black man seen with a rifle in a TSBD window was a Cuban shooter (probably Herminio Diaz Garcia), not a sniper from any branch of the military. There is little doubt in my mind that the black man on the sidewalk who held up a fist or hand as the limo went by was a Cuban and not a military man, and if not simply a signaler may have been a potential walk-up shooter.

It made sense to use Cubans in this killing if the intent was to blame Cubans (that is, Castro) for it, for an invasion of Cuba. Any Cuban shooter, if killed or captured (and eliminated a la Oswald) was a potential patsy who could be tied to Castro as a double agent or whatever.

In sum, I think the shooting differed from a military operation such as you describe because it was not a military operation. It was carried out by some fearless Cubans and arrogant rogue federal agents who took all the risks, with the military and powers that be having to step in and cover up in a rather haphazard fashion when Oswald got taken alive and a lone nut scenario was put into effect."

Ron,

I agree 100% with your assessment. It's one of the very few things that Al and I don't agree on, and we've had many spirited discussions on this subject previously. I also recall a post of yours from another forum concerning the likelihood of the "familiar faces" in Dealey Plaza. The odds are astronomical that so many "assets" would have identical twins in DP that day.

RJS

Edited November 19, 2004 by Richard J. Smith

[Ron Ecker]

I also recall a post of yours from another forum concerning the likelihood of the "familiar faces" in Dealey Plaza. The odds are astronomical that so many "assets" would have identical twins in DP that day.

I would like to see a statistician consider the question. There would seem to be enough data to consider the odds, though I know nothing about statistics.

Looking at Altgens 3 (The Killing of a President, pp. 12-13), from the James Arthur Lewis lookalike on the lamppost on the left, to the Lucien Conein lookalike on the right, both inclusive, there are 18 people. (This includes the grinning Latino, partially cropped out in Groden, standing below and in front of the Lewis lookalike.)

If we consider only the 4 strongest lookalikes (Pakse Man on the lamppost, later photographed at Morales's Pakse Base in Laos; Rip Robertson; Gerry Patrick Hemming; and Conein), 4 out of 18 people is 22 percent.

What are the odds that out of 18 people who happen to be standing on a corner for a parade, 4 of them, or 22 percent, would look like men who worked as employees or contractors for the same intelligence agency, but actually are not those men?

If we add the Lewis lookalike, or else the McCord/Barnes lookalike, that's 5 men, or 28 percent of the 18 parade watchers. If we add both of those lookalikes, that's 6 or 33 percent.

I would think that the odds against just 2 (11 percent) or 3 (17%) of these men not being who they look like (operatives all connected in some way to the same agency), out of 18 people on the street, would be very high.

Now somebody on the Education Forum ought to know a statistician.

Ron

[James Richards]

Given the discussion here on Covert Operations and the like, I thought I would post this link which may provide a broad overview and if anyone is interested, may initiate a direction for further research.

FWIW.

http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/427/427lect02.htm

James

Edited November 19, 2004 by James Richards

[Wim Dankbaar]

I believe that Lord was telling the truth about Dubya pressuring

him on instructions from his father.

Jack

-------------------------

MMM, we agree again! Let's concentrate on where we agree

By the way, for people who don't know, here's Lord's original letter to President Carter:

http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/pageONE.jpg

http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/pageTWO.jpg

http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/pageTHREE.jpg

Let's add another question: If we assume that Bush befriended Felix Rodriguez during the Bay of Pigs and Operation 40, and if we assume that Luis Posada Carrilles was on Dealey Plaza when JFK was killed, blows up a cuban airliner in 1976 (when Bush is CIA director), escapes from prison 9 years later to go to work under Bush's friend Felix Rodriguez in Bush's Iran/Contra operation, ....... then what would be the chance that Bush does not know that Posada was on Dealey Plaza that day?

Wim

PS: It's abundantly clear that Bushes and Cuban exiles are two sides of the same coin. That's why Florida is their state. You see what I mean with arrogance of power.

Edited November 19, 2004 by Wim Dankbaar

[John Ritchson]

Greetings All:

Personally there is no question in my mind that GHWB was involved in the murder of Jack Kennedy although proving it in a court of law is as John Simkin stated paramount with respect to any and all of the possible conspirators.

We of the JFK Assassination Research Community must, IMO, employ the concept of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt which is a much higher standard than guilt by the preponderance of the evidence, since we are dealing here with a "CRIMINAL"

as opposed to a "CIVIL" case, and if we are to have any hope at all of reopening the JFK case, we must be very carefull in our treatment of the facts of the matter.

This is especially critical with respect to public accusations of those possible conspirators who are still highly placed within the U.S. government, even extending to those who are not highly placed but still connected to these government officials.

While I think it is important to discuss any and all possibilities; to speculate, hypothosize, and such, there exists a thin line between proposing a connection and actually levying a public accusation, and as I believe Al and Tosh and most certainly myself can well attest, it is damned dangerous to cross that line. When I refer to "DANGEROUS" I mean that literally. People have died in pursuit of the truth of the matter and I personally am getting more than a little tired of watching my friends becoming casualities in this "WAR" we are engaged in, and make no bones about it folks, this is a war with perhaps the future of our civilization at stake, that we are engaged in, even though at this point I think we are winning.

Remember, in the U.S. there is no statute of limitations with respect to a capital crime such as murder and with respect to the JFK case, the district attorney of Dallas still has ultimate jurisdiction in the matter, the power to reopen this case, convene a grand jury and levy indictments if the grand jury finds probable cause in the matter to do so. But, I believe compelling the Dallas DA to reopen the matter is going to require extrordinating evidence well beyond any reasonable doubt which I firmly believe we now possess if we can just get our ducks lined up in a row as it were.

I am convinced that for my part, using the physical evidence, I can prove in a court of law that Lee Oswald did not kill JFK and I stand prepared to do just exactly that. This however, is just the beginning but sufficient I think to warrant the convening of a grand jury and once convened they will have the power to force testimony from any and all possible conspirators who are still living including GHWB. They will also have the power to force the exhumation of JFK's body for a state of the art forensic examination which I consider crucial in exonorating Lee Oswald as the "LONE NUT" assassin. This I am convinced is the one thing the conspirators fear most and the thing they will do anything to prevent.

The law demands and I think history demands that we hold ourselves to the very highest standards, so "KUDOS" to John Simkin and the rest who I think exemplifies such standards because I think we all, myself included, occasionally need to be reminded of just what is at stake here.

This then is my perspective on this issue such as it is and with greatest respect and well wishes for all of the members of this forum I will end this little

"RANT" until next time that is.

[Al Carrier]

I'm not trying to make connections Al.  The connections are there. 

It seems we can hardly agree on anything.  This is again the case with this issue.  I believe your expertise and assumptions blocking an objective judgement.

Felix Rodriguez was involved in operations of similar magnitude, like tracking down and killing Che Guevara, the CIA drugrunning from South East Asia under Ted Shackley (another Bush friend) and later from Central and South America, , Guillermo Novo was involved in the murder of Orlando Letelier and the coup against Allende in Chile, as was David Atlee Philllips.  Posada Carrilles worked alongside Rodriguez in Iran Contra (who was their boss?) and with Orlando Bosch he blew up a cuban airline killing 73 passengers.  Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis did Watergate You may proclaim these are operations of lesser magnitude, you may proclaim these people are not professionals but rather dummies with the IQ of snails, you may proclaim they are not associated with the Government , you may proclaim they had nothing to do with Dallas 1963, you may even proclaim they do not directly tie in with George Bush ........  as long as I may proclaim that I happen to disagree with you.

Wim

PS: So Johnny Roselli was not involved in the assassination? Otherwise he would have been killed within a day, instead of 1976?  To what extent do you believe Tosh by the way? People like Eladio del Valle and David Ferrie were just coincidental deaths?  Charles Rogers killed his parents just because he felt like it?  Morales is a candidate for you, right?  Why took he so long to be killed, despite talking?  Was he a professional or also a snail?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let me try this again. Either I am not getting my point across, or like Tosh referred to, most cannot conceive this type of operation or personnel who would be involved in this and carry it out the way it was done.

The problem most are having here is that they are trying to tie the assassination of the president into known motivated individuals who were working with intelligence personnel in the overthrow of Castro. That are locked into that motivation for the shooting and have determined in their own minds that THEY would have to be the ones involved in the assassination in DP. Although the names that are mentioned here by Wim, Ron and Richard are well researched and have the motivation and connections that one would point a finger at, they are hardly capable of staging and carrying out an operation as we saw in DP.

Rodriguez was involved in a main force body to track down and murder Che. Their was no secrecy in the hit and no fear of being captured. His sloppy work in D.C. showed how capable he was in a true covert operation. Several others have been named that had operational status in Nicaragua in the '80's, but again worked with the likes of Pastora and Bermudez on poor quality operations that either involved main body forces or failed assassination attempts of the covert caliber. Compare that to executions and assassinations of Sandanista Governors and Cuban Death Squad commanders in totally controllled regions of Nicaragua and you find individuals as Tosh referred to when he used the term "shadow". In FRANg33 ops, they were covertly called "Sandmen".

The anti-Castro Cuban league of the 60's produced many radical and dangerous individuals who were capable of and succeeded in murder. That does not make an assassin on the streets of America as we see in the case of the JFK Assassination. Here we had three teams work their way into position in an extremely small plaza without detection, fire off three coordinated vollies of shots to sound like three shots total from one or two directions, hitting the target and one other occupant in a moving vehicle surrounded by security, and leave undetected. Their is an art in this type of operation, forgive the term. This art involved highly trained personnel who had no motivation other than following orders and who were controlled prior to and after the incident and will never be identified. They would not utilize a signaller within feet of the target who would pump their fist or pump an open umbrella on a clear day, as it would not be needed. They would not have high ranking officials of the likes of Lou Conein, Edward Lansdale or GHW Bush watching their performance as these individuals would not know the final gameplan, would not want to and would not be within miles of such an operation.

To look at moderate to poor quality photos of persons in the plaza and connect them to who you all have is really stretching it. You cannot put a likelihood on the odds of people resembling people. Take a photo of a crowded sidewalk in NYC and do the same comparisons and you will find similar or better results.

To answer Wims last paragraph; Roselli had a career with organized crime. He also had associated himself with the likes of O'Connell and the likes. He was being called before a government fact finding commission. Think there were other reasons he would have been silenced? Same goes for Files buddy Nicoletti. Del Valle and Ferrie would be trusted with prior information on the assassination, huh. Now these were two stable gentlemen LOL. Rogers is a pipedream of many who was no more stable and connecting his murder and murdurous rampage on his parents is rediculous. Morales was no snail and his death warrant was signed by his own weakness for alcohol and his inability to control himself when he was intoxicated.

I believe it was Ron who referred to the assassination as sloppy shooting so it could not have been a military covert operation. Firing three shot volley of multiple shots from three location in sequence at a moving target of varying speed, elevation, changing angles and periodic obstructions and accomplishing the act and only hitting one additional person in the car? Getting in and getting out undetected? And you call that sloppy.

Shadow teams in Central America could infiltrate the region because they are selected by not only their skills, but also their appearance and linguistic abilities. They can move amongst the villagers and blend in. Their appearance is consistant, they eat the same food and become part of the region.

I ask all to take the time to visit and walk the plaza and get an appreciation for what these shooting teams had to deal with in getting into position, accomplishing the feat and getting out and you may reconsider the thought of it being Cuban revoloutionaries and the presence of the officials previously mentioned.

This is a forty-year old mystery where nobody has come forward (aside from the prison profit Files) to give direct insight. Wonder why that is?

Al

[Richard J. Smith]

"This is a forty-year old mystery where nobody has come forward (aside from the prison profit Files) to give direct insight. Wonder why that is?"

Al,

You KNOW how difficult it is for me to agree with Wim on anything!! But on this topic of the exiles and some mob participation at least, we may just be on the same page. As I said, you and I have debated this often. I think I can effectively and briefly answer the question you posed above. Regarding the mob(specifically the Mafia), they have a code of silence called "omerta". When they are "made", they take a vow to remain true to the cause and remain silent, under penalty of death. There were very few who talked back then(Joe Valachi is the only one I remember), and anyone who they even thought would talk was whacked. I have no doubt of limited involvement by Roselli and Martino, and Sam Momo. It's outlined very nicely by Larry Hancock in Someone Would Have Talked. Regarding the Cubans, I recall from The Last Investigation Gaeton Fonzi bringing Antonio Veciana to the retired spooks affair to confront David Phillips(the purpose of which was to confirm Phillips as Maurice Bishop). Veciana agreed to do it, then suffered a case of memory loss when they actually confronted Phillips. He has remained silent ever since. The Cubans have a code of silence much the same as omerta. They just aren't going to talk. What you will get is a slew of anti Castro rhetoric. Those involved who DO talk, like Gerry Hemming, always stop short of providing the full story. You know my position. IMO, the exiles were the boots on the ground, and the DP photos allegedly of Duran, Vidal Santiago, Robertson, DeTorres, Lewis, and others is much more than just coincidence.

RJS

[Wim Dankbaar]

To John Ritchson,

Thanks for that post, I agree a 100%. Especially on the exhumation. I would like to emphasize that the only person who came close to exhumation, was Joe West. And look what happened to him. The thought that Joe was murdered, is the main reason that James Files decided to talk. Joe located Files, but died not knowing that Files was on the grassy knoll. It is important to realize that. The fact that Joe pushed for exhumation, tells me that Joe was a sincere researcher, no matter how disinfo sharks tried to smear his reputation.

And frankly, I still don't understand why the exhumation suit had to die with Joe.

As for Bush, I think he would be convicted if all the evidence were presented in a court of law. There would be no way to talk himself out of it without perjuring himself, just like Phillips did. However, the American legal system has grown so corrupt in favor of the conspirators, that a fair investigation or trial will never happen again, unless maybe there is some kind of revolution.

I am certain that these cubans (Posada and Novo) who were just pardoned and released (again) in Panama, were involved in the JFK assassination and know George Bush personally as one of their CIA superiors, since before the Bay of Pigs. Not only from testimony of other people, but also from the clear protection that Bush has been giving them and their friends, throughout their careers. They have the goods on Bush and are therefore a tremendous liability to him. That is the only reason they were pardoned. Especially at their age, there is always the risk they might talk and cash their chip. It is of course ridiculous that Washington had nothing to do with their release. It is of course ridiculous that these men are pardoned if they were awaiting trial for an assassination attempt on a foreign leader, whether it is Fidel Castro or not. Keep in mind that if the attempt would have been succesful, a lot of innocent people would have blown away with Castro, as they were planning to do it with heavy explosives. It is the more ridiculous if you know that Posada is still wanted by Venezuala, since he escaped from prison there and did not finish his sentence for killing 73 people on a cuban airline jet.

Of course this is outrageous for any person with a basic sense of justice. So what can you do to prevent an outrage from the public? Simple: you make sure they don't know about it. No mainstream outlet is reporting on this affair and its connection to Bush. Only the usual progressive media.

Wim

To Al Carrier and/or Tosh I would like to ask if they know anything about a blackop in Mexico in 1966 or 1967, wherein the operatives were betrayed and left holding the bag, much like in the movie "Clear and Present Danger".

[Al Carrier]

"This is a forty-year old mystery where nobody has come forward (aside from the prison profit Files) to give direct insight. Wonder why that is?"

Al,

You KNOW how difficult it is for me to agree with Wim on anything!! But on this topic of the exiles and some mob participation at least, we may just be on the same page. As I said, you and I have debated this often. I think I can effectively and briefly answer the question you posed above. Regarding the mob(specifically the Mafia), they have a code of silence called "omerta". When they are "made", they take a vow to remain true to the cause and remain silent, under penalty of death. There were very few who talked back then(Joe Valachi is the only one I remember), and anyone who they even thought would talk was whacked. I have no doubt of limited involvement by Roselli and Martino, and Sam Momo. It's outlined very nicely by Larry Hancock in Someone Would Have Talked. Regarding the Cubans, I recall from The Last Investigation Gaeton Fonzi bringing Antonio Veciana to the retired spooks affair to confront David Phillips(the purpose of which was to confirm Phillips as Maurice Bishop). Veciana agreed to do it, then suffered a case of memory loss when they actually confronted Phillips. He has remained silent ever since. The Cubans have a code of silence much the same as omerta. They just aren't going to talk. What you will get is a slew of anti Castro rhetoric. Those involved who DO talk, like Gerry Hemming, always stop short of providing the full story. You know my position. IMO, the exiles were the boots on the ground, and the DP photos allegedly of Duran, Vidal Santiago, Robertson, DeTorres, Lewis, and others is much more than just coincidence.

RJS

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Richard,

Apparently "omerta" only exists as long as their is no pressure of prosecution on those who can break this silence. Look at the insider informant information that has taken down several crime families. Tell John Gotti about "omerta". Do you really think the people who planned the assassination would rely on this mafia code of silence?

Veciana walked Fonzi to Phillips and then backed off. Was Veciana approached prior to that? Some code of silence. Why did he back off? Could it be as he said that he wanted to restore the ties to the CIA in order to go after Castro again? Why has he remained silent since? Maybe because he was shot in the face and lived. Does this really sound like a silencing technique for someone who could provide insight into the assassination of a president. Would you put your faith in him to remain silent if he had anything to provide insight?

You really don't believe in Hemming do you? This guy is a blowhard and spends more time telling everyone how great and important he was and provides nothing of substance. Would you rely on a "Soldier of Fortune" such as this to have knowlege of the assassination? Would you expect him to keep his big mouth shut? The man is a legend in his own mind.

It is true the anti-Castro Cubans were utilized by the CIA in Central America in the mid-eighties, but their tactics were sloppy and barbaric and if it wasn't for discipline, the "shadow personnel" that Tosh referred to who watched their tactics would have eliminated them because of what they did. Most may find this hard to swallow, but the true operatives in C.A. had morals and detested the torture and killing of innocents. Executing and Assassinating ranking regional officials and Cuban DS personnel was justifiable at the time, but not what was done by the likes of Alarcon and others.

What it comes down to is professional operation and control.

Wim refers to those released recently and pardoned by the current administration. They were as roque and uncontrollable as you will find. And they are still alive. Enough proof that they were not involved.

Al

[Ron Ecker]

I believe it was Ron who referred to the assassination as sloppy shooting so it could not have been a military covert operation. Firing three shot volley of multiple shots from three location in sequence at a moving target of varying speed, elevation, changing angles and periodic obstructions and accomplishing the act and only hitting one additional person in the car? Getting in and getting out undetected? And you call that sloppy.

Al,

In using the word sloppy, I had in mind not so much the shot or shots that hit Connally, but at least one shot that missed the entire limousine and hit the street.

Ron

[Wim Dankbaar]

Ron,

There was much more that was "sloppy" in my opinion. Asking Files to be the backup shooter on the morning of the assassination was sloppy. The frontal shots (the fatal headshot and throath shot) were sloppy. It demolished the "Oswald from behind theory" right from the start. Not killing the patsy right away was sloppy. Having Jim Braden and the tramps detained, was sloppy. Needing to have Jack Ruby (with his clear connections to Chicago, Florida and New Orleans organized crime) kill Oswald was sloppy. Killing Tippit instead of Oswald, was sloppy. and on and on and on. In the end it did not really matter, with the highest echelons of government twisting, surpressing, killing and altering the evidence.

Wim

[John Ritchson]

Ron,

There was much more that was "sloppy" in my opinion.  Asking Files to be the backup shooter on  the morning of the assassination was sloppy. The frontal shots (the fatal headshot and throath shot) were sloppy. It demolished the "Oswald from behind theory" right from the start.  Not killing the patsy right away was sloppy.  Having Jim Braden and the tramps detained, was sloppy.  Needing to have Jack Ruby (with his clear connections to Chicago, Florida and New Orleans organized crime) kill Oswald was sloppy.  Killing Tippit instead of Oswald, was sloppy. and on and on and on. In the end it did not really matter, with the highest echelons  of government twisting, surpressing, killing and altering the evidence.

Wim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wim, IMO the one thing the conspirators could not and did not account for is the advent of modern computer technology that enables us to examine the JFK case in detail unimagined in 1963. Say what you will about Gates, Wosniak and Jobs but

they have literally changed the world and have made possible this examination in retrospect.

However, in 1963 given the fluid dynamics of any assassination scenerio, the prosecution and execution of the JFK murder was carried out with a precision consistant with the times all other factors concidered. They_the "Conspirators", have managed to maintain their damage control through 41 years of research to the contrary of the LN scenerio despite the best efforts of the assassination research community to bring to light the truth of the matter. Thus, even with the "Sloppiness" factored in, one must still acknowledge the "Effectivness" of their

actions.

That said, I now think we have them on the run as it were and it remains my firm conviction that sooner rather than later the whole plot will unravel and it will unravel at an exponential rate. I can almost feel the desperation in their continuing efforts at maintaining the great illusion and the time will soon come when we can bury the LN scenerio once and for all.

Respectfully:

[Tim Carroll]

There was much more that was "sloppy" in my opinion.  Asking Files to be the backup shooter on the morning of the assassination was sloppy.

Wim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wim,

The idea that Files was asked to be the backup shooter, to choose the location and the weapon at around 10:30 that morning is not sloppy; it's unbelievable.

Tim

[Jack White]

There was much more that was "sloppy" in my opinion.  Asking Files to be the backup shooter on the morning of the assassination was sloppy.

Wim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wim,

The idea that Files was asked to be the backup shooter, to choose the location and the weapon at around 10:30 that morning is not sloppy; it's unbelievable.

Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Precisely. Could not happen. Did not happen. Would never happen.

Only possible Files scenario...maybe someone DID set him up as an alternate PATSY.

Jack

[Wim Dankbaar]

Wim,

The idea that Files was asked to be the backup shooter, to choose the location and the weapon at around 10:30 that morning is not sloppy; it's unbelievable.

Tim

-----------------------

Tim,

It does not sound plausible, I agree. But you have to keep in mind that opposite forces were at work that day. Roselli was originally scheduled to be a shooter, then he came in on an abort team and was afraid to go ahead.

Nicoletti needed a replacement for him. Also, don't forget Files was not supposed to shoot, He was to be only backup. You could even argue that the sloppiness of the other shooters in the Plaza, caused Files to shoot. in a way, the sloppiness of the operation clinched it.

If you believe the abort team of Tosh, then you can also appreciate the possibility for last minute decisions.

Lastly, if it is so unbelievable, why would Files make it up? If Files is a xxxx, don't you think he himself has considered that this is "unbeliavable"? Don't you think he would have woven a more believable tale? Have you thought about that? Most people that say Files is a hoax, at least agree that he is a rather clever hoax. Do you think he is not only a hoax, but a dumb hoax too?

In effect, what you're saying is that if Files would have lied by saying he was supossed to be one of the shooters right from the start, he would have been more believable.

Anyway, my answer to that is that if you're telling the truth, you can't make it more believable than it was, it's just a pity that it is "unbelievable" for many. But then again, there was also a time nobody believed the earth was round!

Wim

Edited November 23, 2004 by Wim Dankbaar