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Steve Thomas

Harvey Lee Oswald

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Can anyone explain this?

 

A letter from Anatoly Dobrynin to the U.S. State Department concerning Harvey Lee Oswald's request for Soviet citizenship is dated December 11, 1963. It says that Harvey Lee Oswald's request for USSR Citizenship was denied. It doesn't say when he applied for that citizenship, but the character reference memo from the Minsk Radio factory is dated December 11, 1961 and refers to “Citizen” Harvey Lee Oswald.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&relPageId=447&search=%22Harvey_Lee%20Oswald%22


On page 430 of CE 985, there is a Certificate dated January 1, 1960 that “Comrade”, Lee Harvey Oswald was employed as an assembler at the Minsk Radio Plant.


On page 433 of that CE Exhibit, it says that “Citizen” Harvey Lee Oswald was hired as a regulator at the Minsk Radio Plant on January 13, 1960.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&relPageId=447&search=%22Harvey_Lee%20Oswald%22


So, “Comrade” Lee Harvey Oswald went from being employed as an assembler in the Minsk Plant on January 1, 1960 to being “Citizen” Harvey Lee Oswald hired as a “regulator in the experimental shop of the plant” on January 13th The character reference provided on page 433 says that his work as a regulator was unsatisfactory.

 

I'm flummoxed.

 

Steve Thomas

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And we're supposed to believe that this man was a trained Radar Operator when everything in his Marine files points to him being an unskilled mechanic...

Which in turn means the training HARVEY rec'd was not the same as LEE.

Oswald was a non-citizen alien who had an Alien Identity card...  why they switch the name around and use "Citizen" may simply be clerical BS....

Not sure if you ever saw this Steve but I found this pdf

5a0b27d4630b5_FoldernameforFBIreportsonSSnumberbeinghisSSNnumber.jpg.40335cd7211713512415c05a1cd6552d.jpg

containing reports related to his Marine Service and something as strange appears...

The FBI writes that the SELECTIVE SERVICE NUMBER for LEE HARVEY OSWALD 43-354-39-37  is actually his Social Security number 43-354-3937

5a0b273df02c4_SocialSecnumberusedforSelectiveServiceFBIreportsaysitsfake.thumb.jpg.c3dc38331c5b53ba3efdb716c2657aeb.jpg

 

Now Steve Gaal posted this a while back - which makes this number even more suspect...   what IS going on?

5a0b2747ed892_OswaldSocialSecuritynumber.thumb.jpg.13b5c46cfbf7a1027097e7176eb70991.jpg

 

 

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2 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Oswald was a non-citizen alien who had an Alien Identity card...  why they switch the name around and use "Citizen" may simply be clerical BS....

 

David,

 

I don't think so myself. There's something else going on that I don't understand.

 

In his request for a visa to leave the USSR, Lee Harvey Oswald wrote that he was born in New Orleans, Texas, and that while in the USSR, he was employed as an assembler.

He makes no mention of being a regulator in the experimental shop of the plant.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&search="Harvey_Lee+Oswald"#relPageId=451&tab=page

pp. 437-439.

 

Very weird.

 

Steve Thomas

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The next page asks - 

"Other Citizenship" and he replies "NONE"...  ??   and "Worked at a Radio plant as Assembler"

Are you thinking that they're talking about 2 different people?

 

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1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

The next page asks - 

"Other Citizenship" and he replies "NONE"...  ??   and "Worked at a Radio plant as Assembler"

Are you thinking that they're talking about 2 different people?

 

David,

 

I know it sounds crazy, but yes, I actually do. I think the Harvey Lee Oswald persona was created long before we knew it to be, but by who or why or how, I don't know.

Look on page 435 of that application

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&search="Harvey_Lee+Oswald"#relPageId=449&tab=page

 

It says: Father's Middle Name: and it's typed in: Harvey - It's typed in Father's [Middle] Name and the word Middle is enclosed in handwritten brackets.

Since we know that Oswald's father didn't have a Harvey in it, it makes me wonder what that whole line is all about.

It also lists his occupation as a Regulator, but on pp. 437 and 438, he gives his occupation as an Assembler.

I think the two identities are being mixed together.

 

Steve Thomas

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Consider this Steve:

In Russia and many non-American countries the Father's name is included in the full proper name of a person.  We don't follow that exactly here but only kinda sorta....

George Herbert Walker Bush for example includes family names as "middle" names...  moreso even with women:  Ruth Avery Hyde Paine...  Hyde being her father's name

This is a few pages earlier...  I don't think this particular point adds to your theory.  But hey, you know I'm liking it....

img_1135_424_300.png

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12 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Consider this Steve:

In Russia and many non-American countries the Father's name is included in the full proper name of a person.  We don't follow that exactly here but only kinda sorta....

George Herbert Walker Bush for example includes family names as "middle" names...  moreso even with women:  Ruth Avery Hyde Paine...  Hyde being her father's name

This is a few pages earlier...  I don't think this particular point adds to your theory.  But hey, you know I'm liking it....

 

David,

 

I agree.

 

Jean-Rene Souetre's father's name was Rene Jean.

 

Steve Thomas

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On 11/14/2017 at 1:53 PM, David Josephs said:

The next page asks - 

"Other Citizenship" and he replies "NONE"...  ??   and "Worked at a Radio plant as Assembler"

Are you thinking that they're talking about 2 different people?

 

Final Report of the Assassinations Records Review Board September 30, 1998

Chapter 6 Part 1: The Quest for Additional Information and Records in Federal Government Offices

p. 83

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=3611&relPageId=106&search=%22Harvey_Lee%20Oswald%22

The Review Board also sought to determine whether the FBI maintained a file in Mexico City on a “Harvey Lee Oswald” under the file number 105-2137.... Some of the documents in the (Mexico Ciity Legal Attache) Legat's file contain notations for routing records to a file numbered 105-2137, and were captioned “Harvey Lee Oswald”, but it did not find such a file.”

Peter Dale Scott before the ARRB: October 11, 1994.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=145535&search=105-2137#relPageId=36&tab=page

p. 36.

I want to suggest to you that the FBI may have been tracking all of this in a file which I am quite sure has never been seen by the Warren Commission, never been seen by the House Committee, and never certainly by me or by the Archives today. I have found a reference to it in a cover sheet which I am going to leave with you. It is Mexico City File 105-2137, which is then struck out and replaced with a different file number with a different name, Lee Harvey Oswald. I hope you will pursue that original file. I predict that it will lead to some third agency which has been protected in here...”

 

Steve Thomas

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On 11/14/2017 at 4:04 PM, Steve Thomas said:

David,

 

 I think the Harvey Lee Oswald persona was created long before we knew it to be, but by who or why or how, I don't know.

 

Final Report of the Assassinations Records Review Board September 30, 1998

Chapter 6 Part 1: The Quest for Additional Information and Records in Federal Government Offices

p. 83

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=3611&relPageId=106&search=%22Harvey_Lee%20Oswald%22

The Review Board also sought to determine whether the FBI maintained a file in Mexico City on a “Harvey Lee Oswald” under the file number 105-2137.... Some of the documents in the (Mexico Ciity Legal Attache) Legat's file contain notations for routing records to a file numbered 105-2137, and were captioned “Harvey Lee Oswald”, but it did not find such a file.”

 

Peter Dale Scott before the ARRB: October 11, 1994.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=145535&search=105-2137#relPageId=36&tab=page

p. 36.

I want to suggest to you that the FBI may have been tracking all of this in a file which I am quite sure has never been seen by the Warren Commission, never been seen by the House Committee, and never certainly by me or by the Archives today. I have found a reference to it in a cover sheet which I am going to leave with you. It is Mexico City File 105-2137, which is then struck out and replaced with a different file number with a different name, Lee Harvey Oswald. I hope you will pursue that original file. I predict that it will lead to some third agency which has been protected in here...”

 

The "all of this" Scott refers to is the Mexico City affair.

 

Steve Thomas


 

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3 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Peter Dale Scott before the ARRB: October 11, 1994.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=145535&search=105-2137#relPageId=36&tab=page

p. 36.

I hope you will pursue that original file. I predict that it will lead to some third agency which has been protected in here...”


 

According to both Chief Curry (4H181) and Captain Will Fritz,(4H248) the Dallas Police did not have Lee Harvey Oswald in their police files. Moreover, they had never even heard of him.


According to Will Fritz; someone, whose name he could not remember gave him Oswald's Beckley address before he even began interrogating Oswald at 2:20 PM:
(4H207)

At 2:40 PM, W.E. Potts, B.L. Senkel and Lt. E.L. Cunningham were dispatched to 1026 N. Beckley.

Detective B.L. Senkel wrote in his after action report (Dallas Police Archives Box 3, Folder# 12, Item#1) that they were dispatched to 1026 N. Beckley at 2:40 PM and arrived at 3:00PM.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

Earlene Roberts told the WC that when the police arrived at 1026 N. Beckley, they asked for a Harvey Lee Oswald.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/robertse.htm

Mr. BALL. And the police officers came out there?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what they said?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, it was Will Fritz' men---it was plainclothesmen and I was at the back doing something and Mr. Johnson answered the door and they identified themselves and then he called me.
Mr. BALL. What did they say?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, they asked him if there was a Harvey Lee Oswald there.

Senkel, who rode in the Pilot Car with Army Reserve Officers George Lumpkin and George Whitmeyer, who was dispatched to 1026 N. Beckley, and when arriving asked for Harvey Lee Oswald.

 

If (according to Curry and Fritz) the Dallas Police did not have Lee Harvey Oswald in their files, and had never heard of him, how did an "unknown" policeman know that he lived on Beckley? Was this "unknown" policeman's source of information coming from somewhere outside of police files, and was this "unknown" policeman Detective Billy Senkel?

 

Steve Thomas

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Did Lee Harvey Oswald apply for Soviet Citizenship when he went to Russia in 1959?

 

That should be an easy enough question to answer right? Turns out, it isn't.

 

He said he did.

 

Oswald's “Historic Diary:

Warren Commission Exhibit 24 Vol 16, Pg 94-105

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/historicdiary.htm


 

Oct 16. (1959) Arrive from Helsinki by train;... Meet my Intourist guide Rima Sherikova. I explain to her I wish to apply for Russian citizenship. She is flabbergasted, but agrees to help. She checks with her boss, main office Intour, then helps me address a letter to Supreme Soviet asking for citizenship...

Jan 4. (1960) I am called to passport office and finally given a Soviet document, not the soviet citizenship as I so wanted, only a Residence document, not even for foreigners but a paper called, "for those without citizenship."


 

Current Section: CE 950 - Report of the Department of State on Lee Harvey Oswald, submitted to the Commission in January 1964. p. 287

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=301&tab=page


 

Memorandum

Lee Harvey Oswald

Expatriation


 

On October 31, 1959, Oswald appeared at the American Embassy in Moscow, handed over his United States passport to a consular officer, Mr. Richard E. Snyder, and stated to the officer that he wished to renounce his United States citizenship and that he had applied for Soviet Citizenship.”


 

Oswald's signed, but undated statement that he gave to Snyder read in part, (p. 288)

I have entered the Soviet Union for the express purpose of applying for citizenship in the Soviet Union, through the means of naturalization. My request for citizenship is now pending before the Supreme Soviet of the U.S.S.R.”.


 

Okay, so far, so good; but, a year and a half later,...


 

On July 8, 1961, Lee Harvey appeared at the American Embassy in connection with his desire to return to the United States with his wife. In connection with that visit, he denied that he had ever applied for Soviet citizenship.

Current Section: CE 977 - Foreign Service dispatch from the American Embassy in Moscow to the Department of State, dated July 11, 1961.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=392&tab=page

p. 378

He exhibited Soviet internal “stateless” passport... No. 311479 issued by the Moscow City Government on January 14, 1960, which is prima facie evidence that he is regarded by the Soviet authorities as not possessing Soviet citizenship.”

Oswald stated that despite the wording of the statement which he handed to the Embassy on October 31, 1959 (Embassy dispatch 234, November 2, 1959), he never in fact actually applied for Soviet citizenship.”


 

Well, he either did apply, or he didn't.

 

Current Section: CE 950 - Report of the Department of State on Lee Harvey Oswald, submitted to the Commission in January 1964.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=307&tab=page

p. 293


In 1961, he showed a United States consular officer a document issued by the Moscow City Government on January 14, 1960 which indicated that he never was declared a Soviet citizen.”*


*“After the assassination of President Kennedy, an official of the Soviet Ministry of Foreign Affairs stated to an officer of the American Embassy in Moscow that Soviet authorities had considered Oswald's application for Soviet citizenship, but had decided not to approve it because Oswald seemed unstable.”

 

PS: January 14, 1960 is the day after "Citizen" Harvey Lee Oswald was hired as a regulator in the Minsk TV and Radio Plant.


See also letter from Walter J. Stoessel, Jr. of the Embassy in Moscow to the Director's Office of Soviet Affairs of the United States Department of State. He talks of meeting After he talks about meeting Kudryavtsev of the American Section of the MFA in the airport, who told him that, “Oswald had applied for Soviet citizenship but that ,after considering the application, the Soviet authorities had decided not to approve this application since Oswald seemed to be so unstable.”

LETTER FORWARDING DOCUMENTS TO CIA WHICH WERE AGREED UPON AT CONFERENCE HELD MARCH 12TH

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=7986&search=Dobrynin_December+11%2C+1963#relPageId=109&tab=page

p. 109.


And there's this:


Undated State Department Memo marked Confidential

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=392&tab=page

p. 355.


For Embassy's Information Only; If Oswald insists on renouncing US citizenship, Section 1999 Revised Statutes precludes Embassy withholding right to do so regardless status his application pending Soviet Government and final action taken Petrulli case.”


Oswald's “Historic Diary:

Warren Commission Exhibit 24 Vol 16, Pg 94-105

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/historicdiary.htm


 

Jan 4. (1961) One year after I received the residence document I am called in to the passport office and asked if I want citizenship (Russian). I say no simply extend my residential passport to agree and my document is extended until Jan 4, 1962.

 

A letter from Anatoly Dobrynin to the U.S. State Department concerning Harvey Lee Oswald's request for Soviet citizenship is dated December 11, 1963.

LETTER FORWARDING DOCUMENTS TO CIA WHICH WERE AGREED UPON AT CONFERENCE HELD MARCH 12TH

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=7986&relPageId=111&search=Dobrynin_December%2011,%201963


 

Included in CE 985 is a Letter from the Department of State to the Commission, dated May 18, 1964, with attached documents. It says that 985 is a translated copy of a note submitted by Dobrynin on May 5, 1964.


 

It says that Harvey Lee Oswald's request for USSR Citizenship was denied. It doesn't say when he applied for that citizenship, but the character reference memo from the Minsk Radio factory in CE 985, p. 433 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&relPageId=447&search=%22Harvey_Lee%20Oswald%22 is dated December 11, 1961 and refers to “Citizen” Harvey Lee Oswald.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=7986&relPageId=111&search=Dobrynin_December%2011,%201963

p. 111.

In that letter, Dobrynin lays out why the Soviet Government rejected the citizenship application of Harvey Lee Oswald.


 

If the Soviets denied Oswald's application for citizenship, then who was the “Citizen” who was hired at the Minsk TV and Radio plant on January 13, 1960?


Well, there's one way to clear this up, let's take a look at Oswald's application and see what it says.


Ummm.... You can't. It's missing.

LETTER FORWARDING DOCUMENTS TO CIA WHICH WERE AGREED UPON AT CONFERENCE HELD MARCH 12TH

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=7986&search=Dobrynin_December+11%2C+1963#relPageId=109&tab=page

p. 109.


Letter from Walter J. Stoessel, Jr. of the Embassy in Moscow to the Director's Office of Soviet Affairs of the United States Department of State. After he talks of meeting Kudryavtsev in the airport, who told him that, “Oswald had applied for Soviet citizenship but that ,after considering the application, the Soviet authorities had decided not to approve this application since Oswald seemed to be so unstable.”

 

I found this reference to the Soviet handling of his application for citizenship of interest, since I have not found any record of this aspect in our files.”


 

Steve Thomas


 


 

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Warren Commission Document 498 - SS Rowley Memorandum of 13 Mar 1964 Forwarding Reports

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10898&search="Harvey_Lee+Oswald"#relPageId=37&tab=page

pp. 37-38.


The Report is titled, Harvey Lee Oswald.

SS Protective Research Report by Kenneth J. Weisman of an interview with Billy Joe Lord, who traveled to Europe with Oswald aboard the SS Marion Lykes. Lord constantly refers to “Harvey Lee Oswald” whom he found to be “unfriendly, standoffish, and that the two of them “didn't hit off”. (p. 38.)

The Report was written by Weisman on February 28, 1964 and approved by a Jose(?) (Benavides?)(sic?) on March 2, 1964.

You might say that Harvey Lee Oswald was a simple transposition, but you'd have to believe that a trained investigator made the same mistake seven times in the same document.

 

This wasn't a mistake, Weisman was reading off a script of some kind.

 

Steve Thomas

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Bizarre. I presume this wouldn’t be proof of the Harvey and Lee theory, but does suggest some kind of Oswald project at work. It’s absolutely astonishing how every bit of detail on Oswald’s life and travels ends up being confusing. The constant alterations of his name is but one example. How can beaurocratic errors explain this? 

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The "strange coincidences" in this case never cease to amaze me.

One strange note, the handwritten note stating "September 11, 1959" as the date he left the marines.  It is a coincidence but so strange. 

 

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2 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Bizarre. I presume this wouldn’t be proof of the Harvey and Lee theory, but does suggest some kind of Oswald project at work. It’s absolutely astonishing how every bit of detail on Oswald’s life and travels ends up being confusing. The constant alterations of his name is but one example. How can beaurocratic errors explain this? 

Paul,

 

I've been approaching this as if Harvey Lee Oswald was a real person.

That may not strictly be the case however. As I said to David Joseph, I think the Harvey Lee Oswald persona was created long before we knew it to be, but by who or why or how, I don't know. And, it, or may not, be connected to John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee. I think these are two separate issues.

I think this persona, or dossier was created and shared across all spectrums of the intelligence community. You have it showing up in FBI files, CIA, Secret Service, Army and Navy Intelligence, Dallas Police Criminal Intelligence. It would explain a lot, like Revill's list of TSBD employees.

It would explain the U.S. angle, but not the Soviet one. That one's got me puzzled.

(One crazy theory would be to have an element or elements of the U.S. intelligence community working with elements of the Russian intelligence community for some unknown reason).

 

Steve Thomas

 

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