How the FBI lost the rifle's fingerprints

[Douglas Caddy]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5190201/How-FBI-LOST-fingerprints-JFK-assassins-rifle.html

[Steve Thomas]

On 12/19/2017 at 12:04 PM, Douglas Caddy said:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5190201/How-FBI-LOST-fingerprints-JFK-assassins-rifle.html

I mean that pretty well cinches it doesn't it?

 

If you don't have any eyewitnesses, "We can't place Oswald at that window with a gun in his hand." (Jesse Curry)

and you don't have Oswald's prints on the rifle that was found in the TSBD, even if you could prove it was his rifle,

and he's got an alibi by being seen on the second floor within 90 seconds of the shooting, and nobody saw him coming down the stairs...

there's no court in the land that would convict him beyond a reasonable doubt of being the shooter .

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

[David Von Pein]

5 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

If you don't have any eyewitnesses, "We can't place Oswald at that window with a gun in his hand." (Jesse Curry)

and you don't have Oswald's prints on the rifle that was found in the TSBD, even if you could prove it was his rifle,

and he's got an alibi by being seen on the second floor within 90 seconds of the shooting, and nobody saw him coming down the stairs...

there's no court in the land that would convict him beyond a reasonable doubt of being the shooter .

Hogwash!

There's tons of evidence to show that Lee Harvey Oswald (and nobody else!) was the shooter:

...OSWALD'S rifle was the murder weapon without doubt -- with CE567 & CE569, the front-seat bullet fragments, providing the proof that Oswald's C2766 rifle was definitely being used by SOMEONE to fire bullets at Kennedy's car on November 22. No reasonable person can possibly deny this fact. Plus, there are the three spent bullet shells (which were tied to Oswald's rifle as well) lying on the floor below the assassin's window, providing additional proof that OSWALD'S RIFLE was being used to shoot at President Kennedy on 11/22/63.

And as I've asked conspiracy theorists in the past --- Who is MORE likely to use Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle on any day of the week (11/22/63 or any other day)---the rifle's owner himself or someone else? That simple and basic observation, all by itself, makes OSWALD much more likely to be JFK's murderer than any other person on the planet.

...OSWALD'S prints are on various things in the exact same tiny area where we know JFK's killer was located--in the Sniper's Nest.

...OSWALD is identified as the assassin by a witness. (Yes, CTers despise Howard L. Brennan, but his testimony is still part of the official record in this case and it always will be, despite the persistent and noisy protests from the conspiracy crowd--and despite that famous quote from Jesse Curry, which is a quote that is just flat-out wrong, to boot.)

...OSWALD is the only Book Depository employee who fits into this very incriminating category --- He was the only employee who is known to have been INSIDE the TSBD Building at the time of the assassination who left the building immediately after the shooting and did not return.

...OSWALD kills J.D. Tippit, which is a crime that is irrevocably linked to the JFK murder, with Oswald killing Tippit while in full flight from his Dealey Plaza murder.

All reasonable people realize that the last sentence I just wrote is 100% accurate and sensible.

...OSWALD lies repeatedly to the police after his arrest.

...And, despite what Steve Thomas said above, OSWALD'S prints were most definitely found on the C2766 Carcano rifle. More on that here.

...And why you, Steve, are saying that Oswald has "an alibi by being seen on the second floor within 90 seconds of the shooting" is a real mystery to me --- because you surely have got to know that anybody who wasn't walking on crutches could easily descend those Depository stairs and travel from the sixth floor to the second floor in under 90 seconds. The Secret Service man who performed such a test (twice) for the Warren Commission managed to travel that distance--at merely a "NORMAL WALKING PACE"--in just 78 seconds [Warren Report, p.152]. So to say that a "90-second" timeline provides Oswald with an "alibi" is just not accurate at all.

More about Oswald's very doable journey from the Sniper's Nest to the 2nd-floor lunchroom can be found here.

...And the reason why "nobody saw him [Oswald] coming down the stairs" isn't very difficult to figure out at all (whether you're referring to Victoria Adams, Sandra Styles, Dorothy Garner, Jack Dougherty, or all four of those people). More about that here.

And so much more here....

http://Oswald-Is-Guilty.blogspot.com

Twelve jurors who would acquit Oswald must also be related (mentally) to all 12 O.J. jurors.

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by David Von Pein

[Douglas Caddy]

3 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

I mean that pretty well cinches it doesn't it?

 

If you don't have any eyewitnesses, "We can't place Oswald at that window with a gun in his hand." (Jesse Curry)

and you don't have Oswald's prints on the rifle that was found in the TSBD, even if you could prove it was his rifle,

and he's got an alibi by being seen on the second floor within 90 seconds of the shooting, and nobody saw him coming down the stairs...

there's no court in the land that would convict him beyond a reasonable doubt of being the shooter .

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

Your summary is a great closing argument in a trial on whether Oswald did it or not and would convince an unbiased panel of jurors, who would then render an unanimous verdict.

[Steve Thomas]

Oswald could easily have run down the stairs in 90 seconds.

But, I'm sorry. I must have missed something. Could you please provide me the name of the eyewitness who saw him running down the stairs?

 

Don't you think it's odd that you have the only eyewitness to the man committing the greatest crime of the 20th Century, and neither the Chief of Police, or the Captain of the Homicide Bureau could bother to be at the lineup where the perpetrator is identified?

 

Again, I'm sorry, but were Lee Harvey Oswald's fingerprints found anywhere else on the sixth floor?

Please show me the fingerprints taken off the rifle. I'd like to see the actual prints please.

 

Steve Thomas

[David Von Pein]

2 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Oswald could easily have run down the stairs in 90 seconds.

But, I'm sorry. I must have missed something. Could you please provide me the name of the eyewitness who saw him running down the stairs?

And since Oswald wasn't seen by anyone running down the stairs, you think that means it was IMPOSSIBLE for him to have done so?

Did Adams and Styles see Baker and Truly coming up the same stairs they were on?

Answer: No.

Does that mean that Baker & Truly never went up those stairs?

Answer: No.

 

Quote

Don't you think it's odd that you have the only eyewitness to the man committing the greatest crime of the 20th Century, and neither the Chief of Police, or the Captain of the Homicide Bureau could bother to be at the lineup where the perpetrator is identified?

So I assume the above comment, Steve, means that you now believe that Howard Brennan never even attended a lineup at the Dallas Police Department at all, is that right?

If so, you must think this testimony is just a bunch of made-up crap invented by Mr. Brennan, correct?....

DAVID BELIN -- "Now, taking you down to the Dallas Police Station, I believe you said you talked to Captain Fritz. And then what happened?"

HOWARD BRENNAN -- "Well, I was just more or less introduced to him in Mr. Sorrels' room, and they told me they were going to conduct a lineup and wanted me to view it, which I did."

 

Quote

Again, I'm sorry, but were Lee Harvey Oswald's fingerprints found anywhere else on the sixth floor?

Yes, indeed, his prints most certainly were found in various places on the sixth floor---on two different boxes which were located DEEP INSIDE the assassin's Sniper's Nest. Plus, two LHO prints on the 38-inch brown paper bag that several police officers said they saw in the corner of the Nest before it was picked up. And, of course, Oswald's prints were, as already mentioned, on the Carcano rifle that Oswald ditched between some boxes in the northwest corner of the sixth floor.

And, IMO, the reason there weren't more of LHO's prints on the rifle is because he very likely utilized his brown shirt as a fingerprint-wiping rag right after the assassination, wiping as many prints from the rifle as he could as he ran across the sixth floor. He then ditched the rifle near the stairwell and then put the brown shirt back on as he ran down the stairs, leaving it untucked and unbuttoned (hence the reason Marrion Baker thought the brown SHIRT resembled a JACKET).

All that stuff I just mentioned is my own opinion, and needs to be identified as just that--my OPINION--but it fits very nicely with some of the physical evidence in the case, and it fits fairly well with some of the witnesses who said the shooter was wearing only a "light-colored" or a "white" shirt (which would have been Oswald's white T-shirt, of course). He probably had the brown shirt resting on the floor (or on a box) as he pulled the trigger at 12:30. Plus, my "Used The Shirt To Wipe Fingerprints" theory fits nicely with the evidence of similar shirt fibers being wedged in the butt plate of the rifle. As he was wiping off prints, fibers from the shirt could have easily found their way under the butt plate.

 

Quote

Please show me the fingerprints taken off the rifle. I'd like to see the actual prints please.

Check out Commission Exhibit No. 637 (which is Oswald's palmprint, taken off the rifle by Lt. J.C. Day on 11/22/63). Also see this important (often overlooked) document.

Now, if you were referring to the FINGERprints on the trigger guard of the rifle....well, those prints were definitely photographed and were examined in detail by many fingerprint experts---one of whom (Vincent Scalice) said:

"We're able for the first time to actually say that these are definitely the fingerprints of Lee Harvey Oswald, and that they are on the rifle. There is no doubt about it." -- Vincent J. Scalice; 1993 [See the first video on this page.]

And although I myself have never seen the photos of the trigger guard fingerprints, some of the pictures of those prints are shown on camera in the 1993 PBS program "Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?" (during the Scalice segment linked above).

 

Edited December 23, 2017 by David Von Pein

[Steve Thomas]

7 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

And since Oswald wasn't seen by anyone running down the stairs, you think that means it was IMPOSSIBLE for him to have done so?

Did Adams and Styles see Baker and Truly coming up the same stairs they were on?

Answer: No.

Does that mean that Baker & Truly never went up those stairs?

Answer: No.

 

So I assume the above comment, Steve, means that you now believe that Howard Brennan never even attended a lineup at the Dallas Police Department at all, is that right?

If so, you must think this testimony is just a bunch of made-up crap invented by Mr. Brennan, correct?....

DAVID BELIN -- "Now, taking you down to the Dallas Police Station, I believe you said you talked to Captain Fritz. And then what happened?"

HOWARD BRENNAN -- "Well, I was just more or less introduced to him in Mr. Sorrels' room, and they told me they were going to conduct a lineup and wanted me to view it, which I did."

 

Yes, indeed, his prints most certainly were found in various places on the sixth floor---on two different boxes which were located DEEP INSIDE the assassin's Sniper's Nest. Plus, two LHO prints on the 38-inch brown paper bag that several police officers said they saw in the corner of the Nest before it was picked up. And, of course, Oswald's prints were, as already mentioned, on the Carcano rifle that Oswald ditched between some boxes in the northwest corner of the sixth floor.

And, IMO, the reason there weren't more of LHO's prints on the rifle is because he very likely utilized his brown shirt as a fingerprint-wiping rag right after the assassination, wiping as many prints from the rifle as he could as he ran across the sixth floor. He then ditched the rifle near the stairwell and then put the brown shirt back on as he ran down the stairs, leaving it untucked and unbuttoned (hence the reason Marrion Baker thought the brown SHIRT resembled a JACKET).

All that stuff I just mentioned is my own opinion, and needs to be identified as just that--my OPINION--but it fits very nicely with some of the physical evidence in the case, and it fits fairly well with some of the witnesses who said the shooter was wearing only a "light-colored" or a "white" shirt (which would have been Oswald's white T-shirt, of course). He probably had the brown shirt resting on the floor (or on a box) as he pulled the trigger at 12:30. Plus, my "Used The Shirt To Wipe Fingerprints" theory fits nicely with the evidence of similar shirt fibers being wedged in the butt plate of the rifle. As he was wiping off prints, fibers from the shirt could have easily found their way under the butt plate.

 

Check out Commission Exhibit No. 637 (which is Oswald's palmprint, taken off the rifle by Lt. J.C. Day on 11/22/63). Also see this important (often overlooked) document.

Now, if you were referring to the FINGERprints on the trigger guard of the rifle....well, those prints were definitely photographed and were examined in detail by many fingerprint experts---one of whom (Vincent Scalice) said:

"We're able for the first time to actually say that these are definitely the fingerprints of Lee Harvey Oswald, and that they are on the rifle. There is no doubt about it." -- Vincent J. Scalice; 1993 [See the first video on this page.]

And although I myself have never seen the photos of the trigger guard fingerprints, some of the pictures of those prints are shown on camera in the 1993 PBS program "Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?" (during the Scalice segment linked above).

 

I believe that Howard Brennan was brought down to Police Headquarters on the evening of November 23rd to ID Oswald as the shooter and at that time he failed to identify Oswald as such, as is indicated on the lineup card in the DPD Archives, Box 6, Folder# 1, Item# 73, page 3

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box6.htm

I know the reasons for refusing to identify Oswald that he gave later, but as far as evidentiary value in a trial, I'll go with the lineup card.

 

I am not saying that it was impossible for Oswald to have run down the stairs unseen.

I am saying that you don't have any eyewitnesses seeing Oswald fleeing the scene.

 

The palmprint shown in CE 637 was introduced in evidence in WC (4H23-24).

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=34#relPageId=32&tab=page

Day told the WC that traces of the palmprint were still evident after lifting it off the rifle. Latona of the FBI said that when the FBI got the rifle, there were no traces of a palmprint, or even any evidence that someone had tried to process it.

637 was not sent to the FBI along with the other evidence on the 22nd. It was not sent until the 26th. He told the WC,

"Mr. BELIN. Is there any particular reason why this was not released on the 22d?
Mr. DAY. The gun was being sent in to them for process of prints. Actually I thought the print on the gun was their best bet, still remained on there..."

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/day1.htm

 

This kind of evidence is worthless.

 

Steve Thomas

[Sandy Larsen]

15 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

...OSWALD'S rifle was the murder weapon without doubt -- with CE567 & CE569, the front-seat bullet fragments, providing the proof that Oswald's C2766 rifle was definitely being used by SOMEONE to fire bullets at Kennedy's car on November 22.

 

David,

What test proved that those fragment came from the Carcano?

 

[Sandy Larsen]

16 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

...OSWALD'S prints are on various things in the exact same tiny area where we know JFK's killer was located--in the Sniper's Nest.

 

David,

Oswald worked there. His prints would have been found on many things.

Were his prints found on the window frame?

Were his prints found on the rifle?

 

[Sandy Larsen]

11 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Quote

Please show me the fingerprints taken off the rifle. I'd like to see the actual prints please.

Check out Commission Exhibit No. 637 (which is Oswald's palmprint, taken off the rifle by Lt. J.C. Day on 11/22/63).

 

I don't see any palm print at all.

 

11 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Also see this important (often overlooked) document.

 

The document says that Lt. Day raised a partial latent print. That means that he used some chemical or other method to pull ("raise") he print from the pores of the material.

The document then says Day didn't have time to photograph or lift the print, but that it was his intent to do that later.

The photograph of the print is what is used to look for matches. After being photographed, the print is lifted with a sticky tape to preserve it. Neither of these was done.

So at the time of this document, there was still no evidence of a palm print in the possession of the DPD or FBI. Other than the gun itself with said print allegedly on it.

David, is there a document stating that the latent palm print had finally been photographed? That's what we need.

 

Edited December 23, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[David Von Pein]

11 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

David, is there a document stating that the latent palm print had finally been photographed? That's what we need.

CE637 is a picture of the palmprint. I can't see any distinct print there either, but do you really think the DPD & WC just introduced a BLANK CARD and then just SAID it had LHO's palmprint on it? The print is on that card---it's just very hard to see because the detail in the picture is not very good.

Plus....

Latona positively IDed CE637 as the palmprint of Oswald. Was Latona lying here too?....

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to identify this print which shows on the lift Exhibit 637?

Mr. LATONA. Yes; I did.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you succeed in making identification?

Mr. LATONA. On the basis of my comparison, I did effect an identification.

Mr. EISENBERG. And whose print was that, Mr. Latona?

Mr. LATONA. The palmprint which appears on the lift was identified by me as the right palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald.

 

Edited December 23, 2017 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

11 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

What test proved that those fragments came from the Carcano?

The same type of "striation" test the FBI has always used. Both fragments came from the C2766 rifle without a doubt....

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr1.htm

Edited December 23, 2017 by David Von Pein

[Micah Mileto]

11 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

David,

What test proved that those fragment came from the Carcano?

 

Besides Robert Frazier, Joseph Nicol (the only expert out of 7 to claim the Tippit slugs matched the revolver in evidence) also testified that the fragments had enough surface area to match them to the Carcano in evidence. They had panoramic cameras that captured detailed photographs of bullet markings back then, but they were not used here. I don't know what happened to the test bullets. Not sure if there's any contemporanious record of what the rifle's bullet markings looked like besides the alledged case of CE399, CE 567, etc.

Edited December 23, 2017 by Micah Mileto

[David Von Pein]

On 12/23/2017 at 5:43 PM, Micah Mileto said:

Joseph Nicol (the only expert out of 7 to claim the Tippit slugs matched the revolver in evidence)...

You're overstating Nicol's testimony. Nicol only said that ONE of the 4 Tippit bullets could be matched to Oswald's revolver. Not all four.

But the thing that CTers never like to admit is that Tippit was killed by bullets that each exhibited unique and different characteristics. And OSWALD owned a revolver that fired such erratic bullets.

That's kind of interesting, don't you think?

It's only a circumstantial thing, but it certainly goes in the direction of OSWALD'S revolver being in the mix of potential weapons that could have killed Tippit. And then when you add in the ballistics PROOF that it was Oswald's gun (which he was holding 35 minutes after the murder)--namely the 4 bullet shells--then LHO's guilt becomes ironclad.

Edited December 24, 2017 by David Von Pein

[Michaleen Kilroy]

David - I've always wanted to ask the lone nut theorist - where and when did Oswald assemble the rifle?  There was no screwdriver found in the 'sniper's nest.'  I never heard of any screwdriver being found on the Sixth Floor.  He HAD to assemble it on the 6th floor but there were people up there until as late as 12:15 - 10 minutes before the motorcade was due to pass by.  He couldn't assemble it on another floor and bring it up to the 6th.

The Carcano also broke down into about 9 different parts as I recall with screws.  Was all that stuff rattling around in the "lunch" bag that Wesley Frazier said in no way was big enough to even carry the disassembled rifle?  (And Wesley made a good point to me personally at the recent JFK Lancer conference - did the WC ever place the disassembled Carcano back in the bag that was found themselves to see if it fits instead of badgering him to say it did?).

And one more thing - the majority of witnesses said the shots came Pow!......[long pause].........Pow!Pow!

How did the Carcano, which the FBI said takes at least 2.5 seconds to recycle, manage those last two shots that were nearly on top of each other?

 

Edited December 24, 2017 by Mike Kilroy