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Steve Thomas

Cold War played out right in front of me

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Sometimes, I am kind of slow on the uptake, but over the last couple of days, I've begun to realize that in watching the Lee and Marina Show, I was watching the Cold War of the 1960's being played out right in front of me.

 

The U.S. had a strategy of sending false “defectors” disguised as disaffected ex-military personnel to the U.S.S.R., who would gather information and later recant and return to the U.S. Oswald is sent over there and within a year starts making plans to return.

 

For six weeks, from mid November, 1959 to the beginning of January, 1960 Oswald goes incommunicado. When he emerges, he is assigned new Soviet officials he has never seen before, and is sent off to Minsk. When he gets back, he sits down and writes his Collective http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/thecollective.htm.

 

If I were a military planner, this Collective contains everything I would want to know about this particular factory. Its precise geographic location, how the streets are laid out, which buildings are located where, how many employees it has, which of those employees are Party members and which are not, how many of those employees are military, where they are housed and in what part of the factory they work, the name and physical description of the plant manager... it goes on.

 

On his return, he portrays himself as a Marxist, but also tries to ingratiate himself into anti-Castro Cuban exile groups like the DRE and Alpha-66. He passes himself off as the leader of a fictional FPFC with no members who is a “street agitator”.

 

The U.S.S.R. has its own “defection” program. Their method is to get Russian women to marry foreigners, get their husband to bring them back to the States and then divorce them. The White Russian community in Fort Worth were suspicious of the speed with which the Russians allowed Marina to emigrate. In reading through the Russian documents relating to Lee Oswald's stay in the Soviet Union, I realized that it wasn't the Russians blocking his return, it was the American State Department. (See almost all of volume XVIII of the WC Hearings and Exhibits. CE 985 is illuminating).

 

Lee and Marina marry in April, 1961. On October 22, 1961 Lee Oswald writes to his to his mother, “We both agreeded (sic) that she should go to a new enviroment (sic) on her vaction (sic), but she comes back in a few more days on the 29th of October.” (CE 183 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=562&tab=page )

 

What newlyweds having been married for only six months, mutually agree that the wife should spend her only vacation in a different city 600 miles away?

 

Within two months of her arrival, Marina is letting it be known that Oswald is “abusing” her, and that she needs to be “rescued”. I think she played George Bouhe like a song. He and George Demohrenschildt decide Marina needs to be “taken away” from Lee. They swoop in, gather up her belongings and cart her off to the Mellers.

 

George DeMohreschildt WC testimony. This was in 1964.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/demohr_g.htm

 

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. “Right from the very first day my wife told Marina, "You have to learn English, you have to be able to communicate, and especially since you do not get along with your husband and you are going to leave him some day--you have to be able to support your child and yourself. You have to learn English and start immediately on it.

 

After having been in the United States for only two months or so, how and when had Marina communicated to Jeanne that she would be leaving Lee?

 

On February 1, 1962 Marina writes her first letter to the Soviet Embassy telling them that she want to return to the U.S.S.R. She has been in the U.S. for seven months. Had she completed whatever mission she was on when she came here? In my heart of hearts, I think it's got something to do with that “missing” two weeks between October 19 and November 3, 1962, when nobody knew where Lee was living, all the while when he was working at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall during the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis. This reminds me so much of those early weeks in Russia.

 

To me, this is a microcosm of the Cold War played out between these two individuals right in front of me.

 

Steve Thomas

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Posted (edited)

Steve - 

Thanks for helping me ponder...

Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall was in Ozzie's phone book with "microdot" under it...

Innocent letters sent to Russia by the wife...  maybe not be so innocent?

:huh:

Edited by David Josephs

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38 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Steve - 

Thanks for helping me ponder...

Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall was in Ozzie's phone book with "microdot" under it...

Innocent letters sent to Russia by the wife...  maybe not be so innocent?

:huh:

David,

 

He also brought up the subject of microdots in a conversation with Dennis Ofstein, if I remember right, as well as how Russian battle formations are laid out.

 

I was just wondering the other day if I should go back and look at those letters home again.

 

Steve Thomas

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Posted (edited)

Speaking of Letters....

Were you aware that NONE of the letters to LEE OSWALD from his mother are in evidence.  And letters FROM LEE do not start until mid 1961

(edit:  my bad, I just saw the 1959 letter too... just before he left and would write again when he "lands" yet it's another 2 years before we see a letter...

img_1133_604_200.jpg 

5a99977d38bdd_LettersfromOswald.jpg.d7d847952225f83aabf2a52eea9a1ebf.jpg

These are all the letters TO LHO in the WC H&E...  His mother is said to have written him 2-3 times a week for some periods...  Many, many letters were written yet not a single one in evidence...  (yes, we think the letters were sent to LEE by his real mother rather than Harvey Oswald's keeper)

Exibit No. Description Page
65 Letter from "Brick" to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated August 22, 1962. 216
72 Letter from Patrice Lmnumba University to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated May 3, 1961. 234
229 Letter from Prof. Hans Casparis, Albert Schweitzer College, to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated March 22, 1960, with envelope. 626-627
230 Copy of letter from E. Weibel, Albert Schweitzer College, to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated March 28, 1959. 628
235 Letter from B. Weibel, Albert Schweitzer College, to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated July 10, 1959. 634
241 Letter from Joseish B. Norbury, American Embassy, Moscow, to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated December 14, 1961. 681
919 Letter from the American Embassy In Moscow to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated November 8, 1959. 117
933 Letter from the American Embassy in Moscow to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated February 28, 1961. 135
6 Copy of a letter from Pioneer Publishers to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated September 29, 1962; a receipt dated August 31, 1962; an order blank from Lee Harvey Oswald to Pioneer Publishers for a copy of "The Teachings of Leon Trotsky"; an envelope post- marked January 21, 1963, from Lee Harvey Oswald to the Pioneer Publishers. 570-572
8 Copy of a letter from Mrs. V. Halstead, Pioneer Publishers, to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated April 26, 1963. 574
9 Letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to the Socialist Workers Party, dated August 12, 1962; newspaper ad coupon from Lee Harvey Oswald to the Socialist Workers Party; copy of letter from Sherry Finer, Socialist Workers Party, to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated August 23, 1962. 575-576
11 Letter from Farrell Dobbs to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated November 5, 1962. 578
12 Letter from Bob Chester to Lee Harvey Oswald dated December 9, 1962. 579
13 Letter from Joseph Task, Socialist Workers Party, to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated March 27, 1963. 580
2 Letter from Arnold S. Johnson to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated July 31,1963 260
4-A Letter from Arnold S. Johnson to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated September 19, 1963. 265
3 Letter from V. T. Lee, national director of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated May 29, 1963. 514-516
3-A Letter from V. T. Lee, national director of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated May 22, 1963. 517
2 Copy of a letter from James J. Tormey to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated December 13, 1962. 677
1 Letter from Louis Weinstock, general manager of the Worker, to Lee Harvey Oswald, dated December19, 1961 721
1074 Copy of a letter dated March 24, 1961, from Richard E. Snyder, American Embassy, Moscow, to Lee Harvey Oswald, Minsk. 24
1075 Copy of a letter dated July 24, 1961, from John A. MeVickar, American Embassy, Moscow, to Lee Harvey Oswald, Minsk. 25
1076 Copy of a letter dated November 13, 1961, from Joseph B. Norbury, American Embassy, Moscow, to Lee Harvey Oswald, Minsk. 25
1078 Copy of a letter dated January 5, 1962, from Samuel G. Wise, American Embassy, Moscow, to Lee Harvey Oswald, Minsk. 26
1079 Copy of a letter dated January 15, 1962, from Samuel G. Wise, American Embassy, Moscow, to Lee Harvey Oswald, Minsk. 27
1084 Letter dated February 28, 1961, from Richard E. Snyder, American Embassy, Moscow, to Lee Harvey Oswald, Minsk, with envelope. 31-32
1085 Letter dated March 24, 1961, from Richard E. Snyder, American Embassy, Moscow, to Lee Harvey Oswald, Minsk, with envelope. 33-34
1090 Copy of a letter dated January 11, 1963, from R. C. Reeley, Office of Finance, to Lee Harvey Oswald, Dallas, Tex. 38
1000 Letter dated January 15, 1962, from Samuel G. Wise, American Embassy, Moscow, to Lee Harvey Oswald, Minsk, with envelope. 49-50
1103 Letter dated February 28, 1962, from J. W. Holland, District Director, San Antonio Office, Immigration and Naturalization 55-57 Service, to Lee Harvey Oswald, Minsk, enclosing "Instructions to the Applicant," with envelope (FBI item 246). 55-57
1124 Letter dated January 5, 1962, from Samuel G. Wise, American Embassy, Moscow, to Lee Harvey Oswald, Minsk, enclosing document entitled "Evidence Which Can Be Presented To Meet the Public Charge Provision of the Law," with envelope. 90-92
2224 Letter to Commission dated May 13, 1964, from Peter Megargee Brown, enclosing photostatic copies of all materials relating to Lee Harvey Oswald in possession or control of the Community Service Society or its counsel (CD 930). 123-126
2648 Letters dated August 22 and July 6, 1963, from Eugene John Murret to Lee Harvey Oswald. 919
2663 Letter dated February 23, 1962, from John Connally to Lee Harvey Oswald, notifying him his letter of January 30 has been referred to Navy Department (CD 1114, 11-30). 19
2768 Letter from National Security Agency dated June 16, 1964, to Commission, concerning cryptologists' report on materials relating to Lee Harvey Oswald (CD 1120). 155
Edited by David Josephs

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1 minute ago, David Josephs said:

These are all the letters TO LHO in the WC H&E...  His mother is said to have written him 2-3 times a week for some periods...  Many, many letters were written yet not a single one in evidence...  (yes, we think the letters were sent to LEE by his real mother rather than Harvey Oswald's keeper)

Really so upset there is still all this censorship on a subject, the assassination of JFK, that totally changed the world, making it a worse place for all

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Paz...  while so many rail against the evidence of there being both a Lee Oswald and Harvey Oswald, more and more and more the evidence points in that direction.

Take a look at CE1961 next to Allen Felde's account of having been with Oswald...  what is evidence is that 2 men's records were combined into 1 "Military cover backstop" so if the Russians checked up on the Oswald we sent them, it would check out...

In 1947 and again on Nov 22, 1963, the house across the street from STRIPLING is where Harvey's mother lived...  the house a friend of FRED KORTH owns....  you see, without John's years at the Archives making these copies as well as making them available free of charge... so many researchers would not have access to such important info...

If you don't make use of these resources... you're missing out   http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/tabs/collection/po-arm 

5a999ae9244b3_FredKorthassociationtoOswald.thumb.jpg.4967ae80457440ec73004c32334d0be3.jpg

 

5a99997c42d5d_CE1961versusFELDEv2.thumb.jpg.29c7bf0b98e4bb943a70ad40203fc5fb.jpg

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1 minute ago, David Josephs said:

Paz...  while so many rail against the evidence of there being both a Lee Oswald and Harvey Oswald, more and more and more the evidence points in that direction.

I really like the way you create your posts

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Thanks...  I have always felt, given the medium, we should always post links and/or images to help make and support the point.

Another reason I simply cannot suffer the fools who come here so woefully unprepared to have a discussion
or need to disparage all that eludes them about the case...

:cheers

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Just now, David Josephs said:

Another reason I simply cannot suffer the fools who come here so woefully unprepared to have a discussion
or need to disparage all that eludes them about the case...

I can not describe how much I agree with you. They are shameful, and a problem for the whole Education Forum

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David,

 

I don't want to repeat your entire post, but compare his service record for the Spring of 1957 against this "autobiography" he supposedly wrote; especially the months of May-June. Do they match?

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10483#relPageId=479&tab=page

 

I asked once where this "autobiography" came from, but no one replied.

 

I've never really looked into the military record discrepancies that John Armstrong wrote about, but I wonder how he could be in California at the same time he's attending school in the southeastern U.S.

 

Steve Thomas

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26 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

but compare his service record for the Spring of 1957 against this "autobiography

ok...  :cheers  see below... but first,

He never mentions RADAR SCHOOL in Biloxi in his timeline but only in his recap...    you may remember after his claim he'd give radar codes to the Russians, nothing comes of it...  he never went to Radar school and didn't know any codes to tell them...  that was Lee.  Most of the Folsom Exhibit is info on LEE (including his teeth)

The Title of his MOS is Aviation Electronics Oper (-ation?)(-ator?) yet he is NOT an Air Traffic Controller... his preference and recommendation is "Aircraft Maintenance and Repair"

A Radar operator does not also fix the planes...   

img_1136_680_300.png

5a99afc901e33_OswaldMarineyearsCE1961versusautobiographicalnotes-doesntmentiongoingtoBiloxibutdoesmentionradarschool.thumb.jpg.43d58014914ff22c71ae9c35b7c7602e.jpg

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

David,

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10483#relPageId=479&tab=page

 

I asked once where this "autobiography" came from, but no one replied.

 

I don't know why, but something just hit me. If you look on pp. 486 and 488 of this "autobiography", there's a date of 11/23/63 and a bunch of initials.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10483#relPageId=486&tab=page

 

The RSS is probably Richard S. Stovall, and the GFR is probably Guy F. Rose - two of the Detectives who searched the 2515 W. 5th St. property in Irving. I don't know who the other two guys are: (Hmm and J Pa.)

Is this the notebook that was lost or burned or had pages removed from it or whatever?

 

Steve Thomas

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21 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

The RSS is probably Richard S. Stovall, and the GFR is probably Guy F. Rose - two of the Detectives who searched the 2515 W. 5th St. property in Irving. I don't know who the other two guys are: (Hmm and J Pa.)

5a99c1fde502e_InitialsonOswaldautobiography.jpg.7968368f59bd47f8f063d2746b4b8d73.jpg

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44 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

The RSS is probably Richard S. Stovall, and the GFR is probably Guy F. Rose - two of the Detectives who searched the 2515 W. 5th St. property in Irving. I don't know who the other two guys are: (Hmm and J Pa.)

Is this the notebook that was lost or burned or had pages removed from it or whatever?

David,

 

Good catch on Moore and Adamcik. Thanks.

 

Marina just happened to hold on to the BYP and the undated Walker note.

 

Mr. McDONALD. What happened to that notebook?
Mrs. PORTER. I don't know.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you recall if Lee ever--
Mrs. PORTER. You mean now or then?
Mr. McDONALD. Then, what happened then? Did Lee do anything to the notebook?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, it is possibility that maybe it was destroyed.

 

Mr. FITHIAN - Let's turn to the picture, the pictures, and the negatives which went along with them. You told the committee yesterday that you burned some of the evidence, some pictures, et cetera, after the assassination of President Kennedy; is that correct?

Mrs. PORTER - Yes.

 

Mr. McDONALD. And you were aware of this notebook that he kept.
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I tried to recall in my memory how these things did happen, and by now maybe I assumed some things, so really I just know it as a fact that Lee did try to attempt on life of General Walker. He told me about that and that is the fact. Details of it, I do not remember. I don't want to mislead you different direction.
Mr. McDONALD. But do you recall Lee ever burning the pages of this notebook in the bathroom?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, afterwards, of course, I was petrified, you know, for what he did. I was afraid and--I was waiting for the police to knock on our door any minute, so I probably even myself would be eager to destroy any evidence that lead to arrest of Lee.
Mr. McDONALD. Do you remember him destroying this notebook?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not remember right now.

 

Mr. FITHIAN - What other evidence or material did you destroy in your haste to try to get rid of evidence?
Mrs. PORTER - As far as I know, only that, this picture.
Mr. FITHIAN - In Lee's practice of writing a kind of a diary, did he keep letters from other people as a part of that sort of keeping a track or keeping a record of things?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't know, sir.
Mr. FITHIAN - What?
Mrs. PORTER - I do not know.

Mr. FITHIAN - Did you ever see any letters in his writing and material from others?
Mrs. PORTER - I don't have a habit to go through, you know, somebody's belongings, so I don't remember everything,

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Nope...  only kept 3 year old payment stubs for someone else...

It's as if Marina didn't bother to see what of her husband's they took...  y'know, just out of curiosity...

the detail in those lists is amazing... yet the BYP and negatives were supposedly written down as "Misc photos and maps"
- Stovall B -

:huh:

And kind of my point about the rifle carton...  What better place to FREELY keep your rifle than in the carton it came in?... how else would he have gotten it home if, in that parallel universe, the rifle was shipped and waiting for him at the GPO.

Mr. BELIN. And do you know in what kind of a container it would have been shipped? 
Mr. WALDMAN. It was customary for us to ship these rifles with scopes attached in a corrugated cardboard carton made for us by the Rudd Container Corporation of Chicago. 
Mr. BELIN. About how long would that carton be in size, if you know? 
Mr. WALDMAN. Approximately 60 inches. 

Edited by David Josephs

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