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Derek Thibeault

William Greer and the Braking Limo

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Does anyone know where the limousine slowed down or stopped?  I just looked at Vince Palamara's updated list of witnesses (55 witnesses):

"Fifty-nine Witnesses: Delay on Elm Street

By Vince Palamara

Updated 1998 edition (based off the original 1991 article "47 Witnesses" that appeared in The Third Decade, Jan/ March 1992)"

And, the witnesses don't say where the limousine stopped in that article. 

What choices could there be for where the limousine slowed or stopped?

1.  Intersection of Houston and Elm / TSBD front-  based on Roy Truly statement

2.  Before Robert Groden's X marks the spot

3.  After Robert Groden's X marks the spot

4.  Grassy Knoll / Mary Moorman and Jean Hill

Can you name any others?

 

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Further research has yielded the notion that almost all of the witnesses said nothing about where the vehicle slowed or stopped.  It didn't seem to be a good question or an important one to the authorities or the witnesses.  Or, was what they said edited to where the witnesses saw the limousine stop.  It makes a difference whether the stoppage or slowing occurred in the intersection, in front of the TSBD, or down in front of the Grassy Knoll.  There is no evidence of tampering so far.  Out of 59 witnesses only a few said anything about where the presidential limousine slowed or stopped.  Is that suspicious or not?

Here's what I have found relating to where the vehicle slowed or stopped:

Where did the vehicle stop or slow?

Analysis of Vince Palamara’s witness compilation: “59 witnesses – Delay on Elm St.”1

by Andrew Mason

10) DPD Earle Brown---" The first I noticed the [JFK's] car was when it stopped..after it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped." [6 H 233];[This quote is incomplete and misleading. He actually said, on further questioning, that he was not sure whether it actually stopped or just slowed:  Mr. BROWN. After it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped. Mr. BALL. Did it come to a complete stop? Mr. BROWN. That, I couldn't swear to. Mr. BALL. It appeared to be slowed down some? Mr. BROWN. Yes; slowed down.

14) DPD motorcycle officer B.J. Martin (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists)---saw JFK's car stop " just for a moment." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]; [not a statement close to events] [not independently taken or reported] [In his WC testimony, Martin said it was moving the entire time. 6 H 291 :

Mr. BALL. And then the block between Main and Elm, did the motorcade slow down? Mr. MARTIN. It slowed down just before we made the turn onto Elm Street. Mr. BALL. Let’s take the President’s car-what do you think the speed of the President’s car was as you made that turn from Houston onto Elm? Mr. MARTIN. I believe the speed was about 4 or 5 miles an hour. Mr. BALL. What was your speed? Mr. MARTIN. Approximately the same-maybe a mile slower. Mr. BALL. Were you able to maintain your position on the two-wheeler motorcycle? Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir ; I believe I did.

5

 

Mr. BALL. What is the minimum speed at which you can maintain the position of that motorcycle? Mr. MARTIN. About 2 miles per hour, I would imagine. Mr. BALL. Did the President’s car pick up any speed from the corner Of Houston and Elm-we’ll say half way down that hill? Mr. MARTIN. No, sir ; I don’t recall it picking up any speed in there. Mr. BALL. They were going fairly slow? Mr. MARTIN. It may have picked up, gradually picked up, but not enough that I could notice.

35) TSBD Supervisor Roy Truly---after the first shot " I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in the area [it stopped] for a second or two or something like that I just saw it stop." [3 H 221, 266]; The complete quote is: 3 H 226:

Mr. TRULY. I heard an explosion, which I thought was a toy cannon or a loud firecracker from west of the building. Nothing happened at this first explosion. Everything was frozen. And immediately after two more explosions, which I realized that I thought was a gun, a rifle of some kind. 

The President’s-I saw the President’s car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in this area. It is misleading here. And that is the last I saw of his car, because this crowd, when the third shot rang out-there was a large crowd all along this abutment here, this little wall, and there was some around us in front-they began screaming and falling to the ground. And the people in front of myself and Mr. Campbell surged back, either in terror or panic. They must have seen this thing. I became separated from Mr. Campbell. They just practically bore me back to the flrst step on the entrance of our building.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw the President’s car seem to stop, how long did it appear to stop?

Mr. TRULY. It would be hard to say over a second or two or something like that. I didn’t see- I just saw it stop. I don’t know. I didn’t see it start up.

36) L.P. Terry---" The parade stopped right in front of the building [TSBD]." ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 26]; ]; [not a statement close to events][not clear that L.P. Terry was a witness – not mentioned in any other reports][Does not refer to specifically the limo stopping] [not independently taken or reported]

38) Peggy Joyce Hawkins---she was on the front steps of the TSBD and " estimated that the President's car was less than 50 feet away from her when he was shot, that the car slowed down almost coming to a full stop." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97];The quote is from Peggy Hawkins’ statement 3/26/64 to the FBI: CD897. i.e. Newcomb and Adams is not the original source.

Where the presidential limousine slowed or stopped when shooting occurred is related to the question where was the presidential limousine when you the witness heard shooting.  It is an important question.

Many witnesses say the shooting occurred in front of the TSBD and in the intersection of Main and Houston.  Strange answers when almost everybody else uses the Zapruder film and other films and photos to place the shooting and slow down or stop in front of the Grassy Knoll or X marks the spot. 

 

Edited by John Butler

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On 1/20/2019 at 7:58 AM, Derek Thibeault said:

I read that we have 50 witnesses that saw the presidential limo stop before the fatal head shot. I watched Doug Horne's doc on the Zapruder film, which was very good and shows a strong case of alteration of the Zapruder film that would have taken those frames out among other changes. If you believe in those items as I do, how would have Greer known when to stop the limo? At a certain place, after hearing the first shot(which would be tough), a sign(Umbrella man, other), completely by accident, or other? I don't buy into Greer shooting Kennedy. Also if Greer is involved by stopping on purpose, isn't that a huge risk, hoping he is not shot in the process, putting faith in the gunmen not to miss?

It is important in this situation, imo, to ask the right question.  This one is simply common sense -- how fast do you think someone will drive when they are looking to the rear of the vehicle and not facing forward? 

Edited by Pamela Brown

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On January 22, 2019 at 1:32 PM, Pamela Brown said:

It is important in this situation, imo, to ask the right question.  This one is simply common sense -- how fast do you think someone will drive when they are looking to the rear of the vehicle and not facing forward? 

Greer only looked back for a second so unless he hit the brakes really hard I don't think the limo could change speed much. He slowed from about 12mph to 8 mph in that second from frame 290 to 319. I am guessing he let off the gas and tapped the brake. Under normal less stressful conditions the average driver does not let off the gas when they look to the rear for one second.  

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