Was Lee Oswald in Montreal in 1963?

[Greg Parker]

Thanks again, Maurice. That clears up some of it for me.

Robert mentioned numerous people had called officials to say Oswald had been there.

Do you know if the names of those people were taken? If so, do you have them?

If the names aren't available, do you know why they're not?

Do you know if any law enforcement agency, or FBI interviewed those Tremblay identified (Enzer etc...)?

Given that a number of passers-by thought (or were positive) they had seen Oswald, it is a little odd that those handing out the leaflets with him did not recall doing so. Were they perhaps, afraid to come forward for fear an association with Oswald would cause too many problems for the CNVA - especially after seeing what happened to the FPCC?

As Tremblay did not ID person #5 in the photo (Moore, Jr) as being among those he'd seen, would this, in your opinion, go against Moore, Jr as being an Oswald impersonator?

If Moore, Jr wan't impersonating him, is it more likely that it really was Oswald, or are there other "suspects" for that role?

Answers to any of these questions are appreciated, not demanded.

[Robert Charles-Dunne]

Maurice, thanks for trying to clear this up for me (thanks also to Robert and James for their efforts). I admit I'm still having some difficulty getting my head around it. The main problem I'm having is that there seems to be more than one source citing Fred Moore, Jr as one of the marchers - this being at odds with Barbara Dening's recollection. Dening, from what I've read of her, was well respected, loved and admired for her life-long commitment to peace. I just can't image her trying to cover up Fred Moore. Jr's involvement as a Oswald impersonator in Montreal.

Starting on page 183 she lists all those (in alpha order) who were jailed in Albany. Moore's entry in this list appears on the following page and states:

FRED MOORE, 22, of California. Not a member of the Walk, but served two days first jail-in. A friend of the walkers, passing through Albany on his way to Florida to spend Christams with his family, he went to jail to inquire about the arrests, and was held himself, for investigation.

Erica Enzer (the lady with the long stride) who was supposedly with Oswald/"Oswald" in Montreal handing out the leaflets, likewise, was much loved and admired for her total commitment to the cause. Why would she go along with such a scheme unless she too, was an infiltrator for the "other side"? If she wasn't (and it's fairly certain she wasn't) and she simply had no idea she was entangled in some type of operation at the time, she would have surely worked it out after the assassination and reported it.

To add to my confusion/difficulty... there seems to be another Fred Moore involved - this one from San Antonio. It's either been suggested, or I've inferred (rightly or wrongly) - that this was supposed to be Jr's father. However, I do not think he was. His family (presumably including his father) apparently lived in Florida.

After the assassination, people reported remembering seeing Oswald all over the place ... Philadelphia, Montreal, Ohio, various places in Texas, and in Florida to name just a few. Should we accept all of these sightings as real sightings of Oswald (or a real Oswald impersonator)? Some of them? None of them?

Looking at them case by case, some are clearly more likely "real" sightings than others. The Montreal one remains, to me at any rate, in the "too-hard" basket.

I do remain open on it, though, and look forward to seeing whatever further you choose to post here or on your blog.

Greg:

I don't think that Maurice or I or anyone actually knows what to make of any of this.

On the one hand, we have provocative reports from personnel employed by the US government - Tremblay's being the most specific, and Cuban matters were his bailiwick at the time, so he had his own reasons for paying attention to the event - indicating that "Oswald" was handing out FPCC literature in Montreal. It seems that this occurred at a time when the real LHO's presence elsewhere is hard to determine, making it at least theoretically possible. If so, it nevertheless creates a number of issues that are very hard to explain, where he got the money being chief among them, in my mind.

On the other hand, this may have been a crude attempt to create the impression that Oswald had been there, in order to bolster the notion that LHO was a FPCC firebrand, prior to the assassination. If so, this also raises a number of unexplained issues, not least among them being who would be responsible for such a ruse.

On the third hand, for those of us who are tri-dexterous, it could also just be a simple case of mistaken identity. While that mundane explanation would be the most acceptable and satisfying, it would have helped had the leads been run down by FBI to verify this was the case. Unfortunately, as you well know, other equally troubling sightings of LHO in Austin, San Antonio and elsewhere were disposed of just as gingerly as the Montreal event, despite credible witnesses to each such sighting. [in the case of San Antonio, it was reported that he had stopped to purchase some clothing, and initial news accounts indicate the discovery among his effects of a receipt for that purchase.] Again, who knows what to make of such contradictory and conflicting accounts?]

Speaking only for myself, I was trying to plumb the Montreal issue many years back when the photos were still classified, and can only thank Maurice for his sterling efforts to get to the bottom of the issue, irrespective of what conclusion is reached. From what I know of you, had there been reports by US Embassy or consular personnel that Oswald had been sighted in Sydney, you would do the same, if only to satisfy your own curiosity.

Was Oswald in Montreal? Or was there an attempt to create that impression? I don't know. The odds are certainly against it, but given that the FPCC was at that time a target of CIA and FBI attentions, and further given that the Canadian FPCC was highly active - as we've discussed in the past - I can easily imagine some kind of US attention being paid to the matter on Canadian soil.

[Michael Hogan]

From John Armstrong's book Harvey and Lee

On October 10, 1963 "Reverend" Albert Alexander Osborne (aka John Howard Bowen) appeared at the office of the Canadian Consul in New Orleans. Osborne told cleark Percy Whatmough that he just arrived in New Orleans from his residence in Montreal and that he was on his way to Mexico City as part of his vacation (he just arrived in the US from Mexico a week earlier). He gave his address as 1441 Drummond Street, Montreal, and said that this had been his permanent address since 1917. Osborne's passport application contained a recent photograph and listed his birth as November 12, 1988 at Linco, England. He claimed to be a naturalized Canadian citizen because of his services in the Canadian Armed Forces. Osborne presented passport #4-347367, issued on June 1, 1963, to Mr. Whatmough. After cancelling this valid passport, Whatmough issued Canadian passport #5-605377 to Osborne. There is no explanation as to why Osborne exchanged a 4-month-old passport for a new one, unless he was worried that immigration stamps from foreign countries would allow authorities to track his whereabouts. (Author's emphases)

Armstrong cites an FBI cablegram from Director to LEGAT, Ottawa 2/6/64 for the above.

As an aside, I am interested in impressions from forum members regarding John Armstrong's book.

Mike Hogan

[Greg Parker]

Greg:

I don't think that Maurice or I or anyone actually knows what to make of any of this.

On the one hand, we have provocative reports from personnel employed by the US government - Tremblay's being the most specific, and Cuban matters were his bailiwick at the time, so he had his own reasons for paying attention to the event - indicating that "Oswald" was handing out FPCC literature in Montreal. It seems that this occurred at a time when the real LHO's presence elsewhere is hard to determine, making it at least theoretically possible. If so, it nevertheless creates a number of issues that are very hard to explain, where he got the money being chief among them, in my mind.

On the other hand, this may have been a crude attempt to create the impression that Oswald had been there, in order to bolster the notion that LHO was a FPCC firebrand, prior to the assassination. If so, this also raises a number of unexplained issues, not least among them being who would be responsible for such a ruse.

Robert, that was the reason I asked if the names had been taken of all those who claimed they'd seen Oswald. If they were taken, and are available, it may be possible to determine if they were from say a r-w or anti-Castro group out to link Oswald to FPCC & CNVA as a means of bringing both down. If no names were taken, and all we have regarding these calls is the say-so of a US official, then suspicion falls on that guy. If, however, the callers did exist, and were just ordinary citizens trying to do the right thing...

On the third hand, for those of us who are tri-dexterous, it could also just be a simple case of mistaken identity. While that mundane explanation would be the most acceptable and satisfying, it would have helped had the leads been run down by FBI to verify this was the case. Unfortunately, as you well know, other equally troubling sightings of LHO in Austin, San Antonio and elsewhere were disposed of just as gingerly as the Montreal event, despite credible witnesses to each such sighting. [in the case of San Antonio, it was reported that he had stopped to purchase some clothing, and initial news accounts indicate the discovery among his effects of a receipt for that purchase.] Again, who knows what to make of such contradictory and conflicting accounts?]

Mistaken ID was what I thought most likely if the consensus among others was for an impersonator, with Moore, Jr being the candidate for that role. This stance due to taking Deming's word that Jr wasn't within cooee of Montreal at the time. I now realise that Deming was probably mistaken, and that in any case, no such consensus exists: that it equally may have been the real Oswald, a totally made up story, or genuine mistaken ID.

Speaking only for myself, I was trying to plumb the Montreal issue many years back when the photos were still classified, and can only thank Maurice for his sterling efforts to get to the bottom of the issue, irrespective of what conclusion is reached. From what I know of you, had there been reports by US Embassy or consular personnel that Oswald had been sighted in Sydney, you would do the same, if only to satisfy your own curiosity.

Sydney only has UFE (Unidentified Fat Elvis) sightings...

Garrison did however, in his Playboy interview, bemoan not being able to obtain CIA docs on info received at US Embassy in Canberra. For absolutely no reason I can think of, gut reaction on reading about it was that it was another attempt to blame USSR, so never bothered with it, apart from noting that the doc is now available. The Montreal thing is a whole other matter, and I agree Maurice deserves thanks for the effort.

Was Oswald in Montreal? Or was there an attempt to create that impression? I don't know. The odds are certainly against it, but given that the FPCC was at that time a target of CIA and FBI attentions, and further given that the Canadian FPCC was highly active - as we've discussed in the past - I can easily imagine some kind of US attention being paid to the matter on Canadian soil.

In my past efforts to find background info on FPCC, I've come across references to FPCC activity in Canada during 1965 - well after the demise of the org in the US.

[Lee Forman]

Not to derail the thread, but I believe this belongs here.

http://web.mit.edu/ssp/seminars/wed_archiv...ng/clearwat.htm

CONSULTATION AND AUTHORIZATION FOR THE USE OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS BY CANADA

John Clearwater, author of Canadian Nuclear Weapons

March 4, 1998

On 31 December 1963, [39 days after Kennedy's assassination] nuclear warheads from the United States began to arrive in Canada, per an order signed by US President Lyndon Johnson the previous day. Interestingly, these weapons actually had to clear Canada customs, in a sense, with inspectors present at delivery, although this was somewhat less than the full accounting that the department had initially requested. US nuclear weapons would remain in Canada until June 1984.

It was only after the weapons were already installed that any thought was given to procedures for consultation regarding their potential use. Although a meeting was scheduled between U.S. President Johnson and Canadian Prime Minister Pearson weeks after the missiles’ arrival, it was determined that the time before the meeting was insufficient to work out the details for an agreement on command and control of the weapons which the two heads of state could sign. While the bureaucracies began work on a framework agreement, nothing formal was signed until almost two years later—by which time hundreds of weapons were installed and operational.

Perhaps a reason for this laxness lay in the widely held belief that these weapons would never be used. Due to continued negative public opinion, the Canadian leadership promised the removal of the weapons at the same time as they promised to acquire them. And some arrangements were already in place. Under the MB1 Agreement, the United States could fly its weapons north as far as 50 degrees latitude (the border is at 49 degrees). Further, within the original and subsequent MB-1 agreements there existed some rather vague provisions for consultations, arranged between 1957 and 1959. Instituting higher alert levels, for instance, required telephone consultation. While other arrangements were discussed, however, none were instituted, leaving the United States with no real requirement to consult with Canada regarding nuclear weapons use in Canada. And what regulations existed could be confusing. As of 1962, the Commander-in-Chief, Continental Air Defense (CINCONAD) had prior authorization from the US President for use of nuclear weapons over the continental United States and adjacent waters, while the Commander-in-Chief, North American Air Defense Command (CINCNORAD) did not—particularly odd considering that CINCNORAD AND CINCONAD were the same person. All that existed was a general understanding that consultation was the right thing to do, and that the permission of the Prime Minister would be required for use of nuclear weapons.

While there were no political arrangements, the Canadian military began to work out procedures on its own. A draft Canadian document from April 1964 provided authorization for CINCNORAD to use weapons

per a formal letter giving prior authorization. This letter, from the Prime Minister, gave the senior Canadian officer (DCINCNORAD) the authority to authorize CINCNORAD to use the weapons in the case of a sudden emergency. An emergency was defined as, for example, a surprise attack on targets in North America, following positive identification of substantial numbers of bombers, several atomic weapons bursts, or reliable evidence that ICBMs had been launched.

Thus, while in the United States this was a political issue, in Canada it had become the purview of the military and the Minister of National Defence who issued internal instructions to CINCNORAD which were unknown to the Canadian government until the Minister informed them on the subject. The interim instructions gave full authorization to CINCNORAD/DCINCNORAD in an emergency as defined by CINCNORAD.

An agreement on consultation was finally signed in 1965, and the relationship became more stable. A Canadian requirement for the agreement had been that Prime Minister Pearson and President Johnson work out consultation procedures. Key to this was the issue of timely authorization, given the short time-frame that might be involved. Rapid and reliable telephone facilities were built, and a hotline established.

These preparatory measures were dependent on warning time, however. If there was a gradual build-up in tensions, it was assumed that there would be time for such consultations. In case there was not, however, a signed note from the Prime Minister to the White House existed giving prior authorization. This note authorized weapons use without a prior call between DCINCNORAD and the Prime Minister. With the Prime Minister’s signature of this note, Canada had signed away any real right to be consulted in an emergency. It had been pressured into doing so by the US, which had expressed concerns about being able to launch in a short time frame, if necessary.

Now, what this situation meant was that when an authorization was received, there was no way of knowing if it referred to the previously signed note or to an actual consultation with the Prime Minister. Canada had already signed on to NATO rules for nuclear use, which permitted such use in Europe without prior consultation. With this pre-authorization, Canada had given up the right to input on nuclear use in North America, as well, despite the fact that weapons were stationed on their soil.

Dr. John M. Clearwater is a military-strategic analyst. He completed his doctorate at the War Studies Department of King’s College London, where he worked in the field of strategic nuclear arms control. His book, Canadian Nuclear Weapons, was published in February 1998 by Dundwin Press, Toronto.

Rapporteur: Olya Oliker

Back to Seminar Schedule, Spring 1998

http://www.ccnr.org/myth_1.html

[William Kelly]

I contacted Brad Lyttle and obtained a copy of the chapter of his autobiographical manuscript that deals with the Canada - Guantamano Walk.

I will see if answers any of the outstanding questions.

BK

[James Richards]

I contacted Brad Lyttle and obtained a copy of the chapter of his autobiographical manuscript that deals with the Canada - Guantamano Walk.

I will see if answers any of the outstanding questions.

BK

Bill,

I spoke with Brad Lyttle some time back who claimed not to know anything about this and I believed him. One thing I didn't ask him was the possibility of an Agency spy amongst his group. Reports were being generated at the time with information supplied by AMIGGY-1. This was a Cuban exile by the name of Ulises Carbo.

Also, several sources have claimed that Ed Collins had infiltrated the CNVA for their Canadian leg of the march.

FWIW.

James

[Guest John Woods]

a

Edited April 8, 2007 by John Woods

[Stuart Wexler]

What is of interest is one of the individuals involved in this peace march was photographed in front of the TSBD approximately 15 minutes after the assassination.

johnw

John,

Could you please elaborate on this? This would be very interesting indeed.

I've always wondered if Oswald had joined at one leg of this tour or had explored it as a possible alternative method of getting to Cuba. I came across a document at NARA once that had a Tennessee preacher associated with the march reporting the rumor, again, that Oswald was on this tour.

-Stu

[Guest John Woods]

a

Edited April 8, 2007 by John Woods

[Greg Parker]

Hi John,

do you have specific knowledge that it's the same guy?

[Thomas Graves]

Duplicate

Edited November 8, 2006 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

The people in the photograph below include some interesting folk. On the left we have Bruce Henderson, Erica Enzer, (FNU) Seeling, Brad Lyttle, Fred Moore, unknown, unknown, unknown, Dennis Jamieson and Russell McLarry.

[...]

FWIW.

James

_____________________________________

James,

The guy wearing sunglasses in the middle of the photo (post #1, this thread) looks like John Thomas Masen to me.

http://www.dealeyplazauk.co.uk/John%20Masen.htm

FWIW, Thomas

_____________________________________

Edited November 8, 2006 by Thomas Graves

[James Richards]

Hi Thomas,

There is a similarity with J.T. Masen but this guy also resembles the character who was helping Oswald hand out the Fair Play For Cuba leaflets in New Orleans.

Check the attachment below. I am referring to the dude in the middle. Add sunglasses and maybe.

FWIW.

James

Edited November 9, 2006 by James Richards

[Robert Howard]

Hi Thomas,

There is a similarity with J.T. Masen but this guy also resembles the character who was helping Oswald hand out the Fair Play For Cuba leaflets in New Orleans.

Check the attachment below. I am referring to the dude in the middle. Add sunglasses and maybe.

FWIW.

James

Some months ago I saw what is likely the document which produced the "rumor" of Oswald being in the march, my memory is very hazy about this, so forgive me; essentially there was someone in the march who was making a scene, gesticulating a acting like a real loose cannon, I do not remember exactly, but one of the marcher's [later? said] that this individual looked like, or resembled LHO, that is all I can remember. And, not to add to the miasma of incidents I also saw a document which detailed someone, wjo stated that they had seen someone resembling Oswald participating in a protest in front of the WHITE HOUSE, as in 1600 Pennsylvania Ave., if anyone has seen these documents I am referencing please indicate on this thread. As to the Oswald sighting in the march, at the time it did not seem to big of a deal, as once you study the volumes of WC Era document's you catch on pretty quick that either there were massive amounts of 'other Oswald's' or someone spiked the Kool-Aid.

Personally, I think the reason for the large amount of Oswald sighting's is two fold, there were indeed in Texas and the surrounding rural area's outside of Dallas, and in Oklahoma, Georgia, Louisiana and Kentucky authentic Oswald impersonations and the other cases are people who are:

1 Sensationalist's who want to inject themselves into profound events

2. People of the ilk of Clifford Irving, [forger of Howard Hughes' diaries]