Ruby's strange motivation

[Shanet Clark]

I believe the HL HUNT / BUNKER HUNT sponsored TREASON circular was an essential part of the assassination.

It expresses the rationale for EXECUTIVE SANCTION, and was part of the propaganda program about Oswald, Edwin Walker and the assassination.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Wanted poster only painted the broad strokes.

The joint agency executives had no motive to present their own rationalizations in full.....

Kennedy's "incapacity" caused by acid trips with Mary Meyer and other classified NSA/ONI material was obviously not appropriate material to include in the advertisement.

The Edwin Walker tale, the backyard photos, the CHRISTCHURCH early release material, and this Wanted poster all were parts of a PSY/OPS PROGRAM.........

[the CHRISTCHURCH early release material of 11/23/63 is the newspaper Fletcher Prouty read in New Zealand soon after the assassination. It immediately caused him to suspect the joint agencies complicity, as the Oswald material was too detailed and complex to be reported so quickly] -------

Edited May 25, 2005 by Shanet Clark

[Mark Stapleton]

So...taking the next logical step in the process...giving Mark credit for the idea that perhaps the newspaper ads WERE a signal that the hit was "on"...

Does anyone know whether the Paine household received a newspaper delivery prior to Oswald leaving for his ride to work?...and, if so, did Oswald read the newspaper prior to leaving the Paine house?

IF the ads were a signal...and IF Oswald didn't have access to a newspaper that morning...might possibly let LHO off the hook.  Yet another angle to consider.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mark,

I think it's unlikely that LHO was in the real conspiracy loop. The unstated message in those ads, if there was one, would be directed at others. It would be a clever way of signaling a green light, obviating the need for dozens of potentially risky phone calls. Barring the discovery of some written record (most unlikely) or a deathbed confession by someone involved (again unlikely) we'll never know.

[Ron Ecker]

I believe that Ruby’s claim about doing it for Jackie was clearly BS, and he was probably telling the truth when he told his attorney that Howard told him to say it.

On the handbill and/or newspaper ad possibly being a signal for the assassination to proceed, bear in mind that there was a time lag involved. The handbill appeared a day or two before November 22, and the ad that appeared in the 11/22 newspaper did not run until the Dallas Morning News ran the ad past their lawyers. The ad had to have been submitted to the DMN at least the day before. So if either the handbill or the ad were a signal, what if on the morning of 11/22 the hit needed to be called off? How were they going to recall the handbill or the newspaper ad?

Also, a word on the online ad for a copy of the “Wanted for Treason” handbill. To begin with, this was not what appeared in the newspaper as the ad claims, this was the handbill that appeared on the street. Secondly, the ad’s claim that it was written by lawyers from Richard Nixon’s law firm at the bottler’s convention is pure fiction. According to the WC Report (though itself a work of fiction in many places), the “Wanted for Treason” handbill was written by Robert A. Surrey, the business partner of General Walker, in whose station wagon a copy of the handbill was seen by Bernard Weissman, one of the authors of the “Welcome, Mr. Kennedy” ad in the newspaper.

Indeed there may also be a Walker connection to the newspaper ad. Weissman and two other of the ad’s four authors were in the U.S. Army together in Munich, Germany. They got out of the service in 1962. Assuming at least a two-year hitch, they were presumably in Munich when Walker was there. By November 1963, all three are living in Dallas (with Weissman apparently taking at least one ride in Walker’s station wagon), and join the John Birch Society, of which Walker was a member. And the fourth author of the ad was Joseph P. Grinnan, JBS coordinator for the Dallas area.

Finally, if George Surrey wrote the “Wanted for Treason” handbill under instruction of his partner, the fringe right-winger Walker, then it’s correct to say that the handbill was written by a Surrey with the Fringe on Top.

Ron

[Mark Stapleton]

I believe that Ruby’s claim about doing it for Jackie was clearly BS, and he was probably telling the truth when he told his attorney that Howard told him to say it.

On the handbill and/or newspaper ad possibly being a signal for the assassination to proceed, bear in mind that there was a time lag involved. The handbill appeared a day or two before November 22, and the ad that appeared in the 11/22 newspaper did not run until the Dallas Morning News ran the ad past their lawyers. The ad had to have been submitted to the DMN at least the day before. So if either the handbill or the ad were a signal, what if on the morning of 11/22 the hit needed to be called off? How were they going to recall the handbill or the newspaper ad?

Also, a word on the online ad for a copy of the “Wanted for Treason” handbill. To begin with, this was not what appeared in the newspaper as the ad claims, this was the handbill that appeared on the street. Secondly, the ad’s claim that it was written by lawyers from Richard Nixon’s law firm at the bottler’s convention is pure fiction. According to the WC Report (though itself a work of fiction in many places), the “Wanted for Treason” handbill was written by Robert A. Surrey, the business partner of General Walker, in whose station wagon a copy of the handbill was seen by Bernard Weissman, one of the authors of the “Welcome, Mr. Kennedy” ad in the newspaper.

Indeed there may also be a Walker connection to the newspaper ad. Weissman and two other of the ad’s four authors were in the U.S. Army together in Munich, Germany. They got out of the service in 1962. Assuming at least a two-year hitch, they were presumably in Munich when Walker was there. By November 1963, all three are living in Dallas (with Weissman apparently taking at least one ride in Walker’s station wagon), and join the John Birch Society, of which Walker was a member. And the fourth author of the ad was Joseph P. Grinnan, JBS coordinator for the Dallas area.

Finally, if George Surrey wrote the “Wanted for Treason” handbill under instruction of his partner, the fringe right-winger Walker, then it’s correct to say that the handbill was written by a Surrey with the Fringe on Top.

Ron

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ron,

Interesting post. Very witty. I'll have to check out the reflections on life in Ron's Little Acre again. Not enough trees on that acre, btw--has it been cleared for grazing?

On your other points, I don't think the necessity of running the ads past the DMN's lawyers necessarily represents an insurmountable problem. It seems that half the officials in Dallas were bent in 1963. There were members of the DPD, the DA, the Mayor, postal inspectors (someone should start a thread on the ubiquitous but enigmatic Harry Holmes), newspaper proprietors and politicians all willing to follow orders and put LHO in the frame, so why would the conspirators think they would suddenly discover beacons of integrity within the DMN's legal team? They would do what they were told just like everyone else in Dallas apparently did in '63. After all that's been written and said about Dallas in '63, I assume, unapologetically, corruption.

As for the necessity of submitting the "Wanted for Treason" ad the day before, I'll just say this: the assassins murdered JFK in broad daylight, right in front of his Secret Service agents and before about 200 witnesses, the event was filmed and photographed, four "investigations" have taken place, millions of words written about the matter and still we are none the wiser as to who the assassins were. If they were smart enough to accomplish this, then I don't believe a mere newspaper deadline would have tripped them up. If the ad was a signal, and that's still an "if", then they would have had it inserted at the last possible moment. I don't know how and I don't really care. All I'm sure of is that the normal rules and constraints which apply to mere citizens did not apply to the people who murdered John F. Kennedy.

Ron, you're a walking encyclopedia of assassination facts and figures and one of the most helpful members on the forum, but you've got to start being more controversial. I say this tongue in cheek, of course. Seriously though, the people responsible for the assassination and coverup have dicked us around for nearly 42 years and like the cowards they are, have hidden behind the machinery of law which was designed to protect the innocent and expose the guilty, not the other way around. If a theory or suggestion looks plausible, then I think it's worth pursuing regardless of perceived incongruities. For example, I believe the existence of Operation Mockingbird to be an established fact, despite any official denials by "respected journalists or publishers". If we're always tripping over technicalities, we'll never see closure.

[Mark Knight]

I think it's unlikely that LHO was in the real conspiracy loop. The unstated message in those ads, if there was one, would be directed at others. It would be a clever way of signaling a green light, obviating the need for dozens of potentially risky phone calls.

Mark, I wholeheartedly agree that the preponderance of evidence is that Oswald WASN'T in the loop. My point was simply that, if it could somehow be proven that the ads were intended to be a "go" signal, and if it could also be proven that Oswald hadn't accessed a newspaper that day, while it might not completely exonerate LHO, it would definitely put the majority of the blame elsewhere.

Can any of this be proven, over 40 years later? I dunno...that's why I'm still looking at it.

[Mark Knight]

Finally, if George Surrey wrote the “Wanted for Treason” handbill under instruction of his partner, the fringe right-winger Walker, then it’s correct to say that the handbill was written by a Surrey with the Fringe on Top.

PRICELESS!

[Shanet Clark]

I don't think it was a "go" signal.

I think it was part of the rationale for the murder.......

[Ron Ecker]

Mark,

Thanks for the kind words. I don't doubt that the handbill and/or ad may have been a signal. What I said about the DMN lawyers was in relation to the time lag involved in getting the ad in print. I didn't mean to suggest that the lawyers might veto it. But if it was a signal, I don't think it was a vital one. Something more immediate (like a radio transmission) might be needed in terms of proceeding or not as the fateful day progressed.

The handbill or ad could have been a signal saying everything is still go as of now and good luck. Like the presence of Nixon in Dallas that day, it was like a sign of moral support. And the fact that Walker may have had a hand in both the handbill and ad certainly adds to the sinister possibilities.

Ron

[Shanet Clark]

From Prouty.org

For Jane Greer July 10/99

This is an important note from Ms GREER. I have always believed that the "LEE HARVEY OSWALD" role on NOV 22, 1963 in DALLAS may have been contrived. In any event I'll outline a possibility as I saw it. On that date, I was on official military orders from the Pentagon and was in NEW ZEALAND. I was having breakfast at 6-7 AM that morning in company with a U.S. Congressman from OHIO. A bit after 6:30, New Zealand time (17 hour difference from Washington) the Hotel announcer interrupted his normal announcements to say:"Ladies and Gentleman BBC have just announced that Kennedy has been SHOT DEAD during a drive through DALLAS. "

Naturally all of us in that N.Z. hotel dining room were shocked. We went out on the street later searching for the extra edition of the CHRISTCHURCH STAR with its earliest news. Before long we each had bought one. This created a source of information which I have yet to resolve. This is no place to present that red-hot front page news: but perhaps even more important, on page three of this same newspaper there was ad 6 by 5 inch photo labeled "THE MAN THEY ARRESTED" At the bottom of that photo was the statement:"LEE OSWALD, age 24, who has been arrested on suspicion of having shot President KENNEDY."

The photo does look somewhat as we have learned is the OSWALD photo, but there are some distinct variances. For one thing, this photo shows a young man with his hair neatly combed, with a smile on his face, wearing a dark business-suit, a pure white ; shirt with a routine office-hours necktie."

What concerned the Congressman and myself was the fact that this Christchurch New Zealand newspaper printed so far away printed a formal photo of this man who had just shot Kennedy. That photo could not possibly have been taken on that day in DALLAS, just after noon. All other photos of OSWALD that I have been able to gather Including my voluminous file in the PENTAGON that was available to me as soon as we returned'.

Furthermore, one of the first things I did after my perusal of those files was to go to the Library of Congress and obtain a worldwide record of photos available to countless newspapers. I found that the NZ STAR photo was a rare item; among others. The big question that I have had since that time is "How did the Newspapers of the world obtain a studio photo of a man supplied to be the Assassin/OSWALD even before the papers in DALLAS and other cities that had him in a neat business suiteIn an attempt to answer your letter, this STAR photo does not quite look like the routine LHO photo. His face is somewhat like I might expect for Oswald; but how did some photographer know that this "Studio" photo was going to have to be used and fanned out all the way to New Zealand and other distant places not only as a studio photo; but one with significant minor facial differences...but not much? That photo had to have been processed well before the moment...even on the"day"' of the murders.

I know there are countless other facts and questions that can be presented, and most be answered; but I simply used some of many records as a valid response to your letter.

Get out any collection of "OSWALD" photos and see the differences. Oliver Stone used my New Zealand photo in his movie "JFK" but cleverly processed in order to reduce a storm of protest. He did have stacks of "CHRISTCHURCH STARS", but they were copies.

I trust this provides an answer.

L. Fletcher Prouty

[Mark Stapleton]

All of the above is very interesting, but gets away from my original point, was jack

Ruby psychologically capable of commiting murder, for the reasons he stated.

If this act go's against his previous known nature,Then some form of psychological

pressure has been brought to bear, to ensure the deed is done. Psychopathy, by

the nature of the illness,renders the sufferer incapable of experencing empathic

reactions towards others in distress. Yet Ruby claims he committed first degree

murder, to spare Mrs Kennedy further trauma. Jack was impulsive, aggresive,

unable to learn from past mistakes, manipulative, ready to blame others for his

problems, & it seems a very good actor. coupled with his troubled upbringing this

is the classic, background, & symptomology of the Pschopathic individual.

As Jack was fond of saying,"You all know me, im Jack Ruby"But how many knew

the real man.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Steve,

Sorry for the apparent hi "Jack" ing of your thread on Ruby but you must understand that it belongs to us now. Joking. I'm no shrink but I believe he certainly was a psychopath. Ruby had a record of violence which included people in his employ. He reportedly often waited until customers were drunk before assaulting them. He was moody and capricious, capable of acts of violence and generosity by turns. Not all psychopaths are murderers, of course. Many can be found in offices and workplaces, people incapable of empathy.

As you outlined, the suggestion that he murdered LHO to spare Jackie a trial is ridiculous given his apparent inability to display empathy. Equally ridiculous is the notion that he did it out of patriotic indignation. If the conspirators needed a fallback plan, they had the perfect vehicle in Ruby. Violent, moody and most important of all, his mind was fertile ground for influencing by suggestion. He was obviously ordered to murder LHO. Being a member of the underworld, that was enough to make him comply. However, just to reassure his fragile and chaotic emotional state, he was also told that he would be a hero, he would receive a minimal sentence by dint of securing him a benevolent jury and importantly, he would receive generous financial compensation. Having planted all that in his head, all that remained was for the conspirators to make certain that he was given every assistance by those fearless upholders of justice in the DPD. He enters the basement at 11.19, the DPD, ever efficient, deliver the victim at 11.21. Beautiful. My guess is that intermediaries told Ruby he was to kill LHO on the orders of Meyer Lansky. I have no evidence to support this.

[Mark Stapleton]

Mark,

Thanks for the kind words. I don't doubt that the handbill and/or ad may have been a signal. What I said about the DMN lawyers was in relation to the time lag involved in getting the ad in print. I didn't mean to suggest that the lawyers might veto it. But if it was a signal, I don't think it was a vital one. Something more immediate (like a radio transmission) might be needed in terms of proceeding or not as the fateful day progressed.

The handbill or ad could have been a signal saying everything is still go as of now and good luck. Like the presence of Nixon in Dallas that day, it was like a sign of moral support. And the fact that Walker may have had a hand in both the handbill and ad certainly adds to the sinister possibilities.

Ron

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ron,

Jim Root would certainly agree that Walker's involvement in the handbill and ad has sinister overtones. I do too.

On the ad being a signal, you may be right. One thing I hadn't considered was the decision on the bubbletop wasn't made until that morning. I believe Ken O'Donnell had the last word on that---beyond the reach of the conspirators. Nixon's interesting, even if you say his lawyers weren't responsible for the ad. His presence and subsequent amnesia reeks.

[Mark Stapleton]

I believe the HL HUNT / BUNKER HUNT sponsored TREASON circular was an essential part of the assassination.

It expresses the rationale for EXECUTIVE SANCTION, and was part of the propaganda program about Oswald, Edwin Walker and the assassination.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Wanted poster only painted the broad strokes.

The joint agency executives had no motive to present their own rationalizations in full.....

Kennedy's "incapacity" caused by acid trips with Mary Meyer and other classified NSA/ONI material was obviously not appropriate material to include in the advertisement.

The Edwin Walker tale, the backyard photos, the CHRISTCHURCH early release material, and this Wanted poster all were parts of a PSY/OPS PROGRAM.........

[the CHRISTCHURCH early release material of 11/23/63 is the newspaper Fletcher Prouty read in New Zealand soon after the assassination. It immediately caused him to suspect the joint agencies complicity, as the Oswald material was too detailed and complex to be reported so quickly] -------

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shanet,

Thanks for that. Yes, the release of all Oswald's background details was done with embarrassing and even incriminating alacrity. I loved Donald Sutherland's portrayal of Prouty in the film. You've probably spelt it out on another thread, but does your theory include East Coast financiers? Even though Nixon was from California, I believe he was largely sponsored by East Coast banking interests.

[Ron Ecker]

Yes, the release of all Oswald's background details was done with embarrassing and even incriminating alacrity.

The explanation I recall reading, valid or not, is that all major news organizations would have had an old news file on Oswald from 1959 because of his defection to Russia. I would assume that such a defector straight out of the Marines would have made news at the time. In any case that's where the background info supposedly came from, I suppose out of some alphabetized file cabinet. (Maybe every major news organization in 1963 had one of those big old-timey computers that took up a whole room, in which "Oswald" goes in and all the info comes out, I don't know.)

Ron

[Shanet Clark]

I believe the HL HUNT / BUNKER HUNT sponsored TREASON circular........... You've probably spelt it out on another thread, but does your theory include East Coast financiers? Even though Nixon was from California, I believe he was largely sponsored by East Coast banking interests.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, there was MUDGE ROSE, his law firm with John Mitchell, that would be one place to start. It is largely forgotten now, but Nixon was primarily known for being a WWII NAVY officer when he entered politics.

Which brings us to BEBE REBOZO. According to Anthony Summers, Nixon had somewhere in the range of 20 million dollars stashed in the Bahamas and Swiss banks, and these funds peaked during the four year election cycle.

For a public servant, he did remarkably well in California and Florida real estate, building grand homes and complexes in very expensive beachfront neighborhoods.

As VP under Eisenhower, and point man for the Cuban invasion up until Kennedy's inauguration in early 1961, I see Nixon as one of the EXECUTIVES with prior knowledge, similar to McCloy, Korth, Anderson and Dulles.

I believe that once the EXECUTIVE SANCTION was set in motion, Nixon, along with J. Edgar Hoover, Lyndon Johnson and others, was informed of it and brought into the plot to provide broad bipartisan political support in the spirit of the 25th amendment..........

[Greg Parker]

Steve,

Ruby's boyhood chum Barney Ross (Barnet Rosofsky) went on to win world boxing titles in three weight divisions.

Once Welterweight champ though, Mark, he refused, on the advice of Light Heaveyweight champ, Maxie Rosembloom, to fight Australian Jack Carroll.

As with Ross, he had changed his name due to due family disapproval of boxing. He had been born Arthur Hardwicke.

Ross may have been brave, but in dodging Carroll, he showed he was also no fool.