David Ferrie

[Nancy Eldreth]

David Ferrie was one to break through a lot of information that we now have by talking to Jim Garrison. This would put him on a list of good people.

However, he was also one in a lot of under cover operations like Mongoose.

Don't know what to say good or bad on that and can't judge, he was done I guess by the orders of what he was told to do?

But, what about David Ferrie deflocked from the Catholic Church for his wrongful behaviours towards children and also his gayness? Wrong type of person in that regards and the church having the right to ban him out from being someone that we should respect and deem to be moral.

What is the real David Ferrie? What was he also with? Would a person call him a good guy or a bad guy? How much as David Ferrie involved in JFK murder?

He was to kill Jim Garrison and according to Jim Marrs findings he went to Philly and asked someone there to do the job the person refused and that person was offered a lot of money to do the job? Because David Ferrie didn't get the job done this took his own life. Again, is David Ferrie really a good guy?

My feelings is that he was HIGHLY INVOLVED and highly stuck into a bad situation all the way around.

Jim Garrison considered him to be the one to open the door. How much did Jim Garrison put on David?

I would appreciate anyone input on this right now.

Also to the Judyth Baker part the mice. What about those mice? They sort of come and go. I guess that project had to be under wraps and they had to move them but they sure were a problem in doing that?

Again, David Ferrie named there as well. SO again how could anyone rate this and in anyone opinion was this more of a government job or a private job that HAD NOT ANY GOVERNMENT CONNECTIONS AT ALL?

Again, I would appreciate to hear anything anyone wishes to comment on or about David Ferrie?

[Stephen Roy]

I have a lot of new materila on Ferrie, which I will present in my book. Of the many well-known stories about him, some prove to be true, others do not.

David Ferrie was one to break through a lot of information that we now have by talking to Jim Garrison.

As far as I can tell, Ferrie never had a chance to speak with Garrison about the case. He was interviewed by Frank Klein and a few investigators in 1963, by John Volz in 1966, and Sciambra and Ivon in 1967. Ferrie tried to arrange a Garrison meeting through Pershing Oliver Gervais, but was unsuccessful.

This would put him on a list of good people.

However, he was also one in a lot of under cover operations like Mongoose.

Probably not true. After his August 1961 morals arrests, he was ostracized by the FRD/CRC in New Orleans. Bill Davy took a July 1961 comment Ferrie made about Operation Mosquito, and guessed that it might have been Mongoose; but Mongoose didn't kick off until several months later.

Don't know what to say good or bad on that and can't judge, he was done I guess by the orders of what he was told to do?

Ferrie's career with the Cubans was less extensive than has been guessed at by earlier books.

But, what about David Ferrie deflocked from the Catholic Church for his wrongful behaviours towards children and also his gayness?  Wrong type of person in that regards and the church having the right to ban him out from being someone that we should respect and deem to be moral.

Slightly mixed up. Ferrie was kicked out of two legit Catholic seminaries as a young man, in the 40s. In the early 60s, he was involved in a non-legit catholic offshoot, but it may be that he was investigating it as an "ordination mill". He was excommunicated for that reason. But he susbsequently became seriously involved in yet another offshoot, a "Basilian" sect.

What is the real David Ferrie?

I hope to clarify a lot of that in my book. But Joan Mellen also promises to have some interesting new material on Ferrie.

  What was he also with?  Would a person call him a good guy or a bad guy?  How much as David Ferrie involved in JFK murder? 

One can divide the evidence into types: Actual evidence of complicity, acts that can be viewed with suspicion, and possible associations with Oswald, Shaw or others.

The actual evidence does not include much beyond Perry Russo and Charles Spiesel. The suspicious acts can be viewed different ways (was the Houston trip suspicious?) The most pervasive evidence is of a relationship to Oswald or Shaw, but even if it were proven true, one could not rule out, say, a homosexual relationship.

He was to kill Jim Garrison and according to Jim Marrs findings he went to Philly and asked someone there to do the job the person refused and that person was offered a lot of money to do the job?

I wouldn't be too sure about this one.

Because David Ferrie didn't get the job done this took his own life.  Again, is David Ferrie really a good guy?

Nor would I be sure Ferrie committed suicide. I now have access to most of Ferrie's medical records, and they tell an interesting story. But others disagree.

My feelings is that he was HIGHLY INVOLVED and highly stuck into a bad situation all the way around. Jim Garrison considered him to be the one to open the door.  How much did Jim Garrison put on David? I would appreciate anyone input on this right now.

Also to the Judyth Baker part the mice.  What about those mice?  They sort of come and go.  I guess that project had to be under wraps and they had to move them but they sure were a problem in doing that?

Again, David Ferrie named there as well.  SO again how could anyone rate this and in anyone opinion was this more of a government job or a private job that HAD NOT ANY GOVERNMENT CONNECTIONS AT ALL?

Hard to follow. Ferrie had a government connection of sorts from November 1960 to about October 1961

Again, I would appreciate to hear anything anyone wishes to comment on or about David Ferrie?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Nancy Eldreth]

Thank you Mr. Roy.

I am very surprised on several of the answers you have given. I never knew it this because of the film from Stone. Even though I like the film version.

In the JFK movie it is David Ferrie who does speak to Jim Garrison.

If there is anything in the medical reports about David Ferrie being hit over the head and or any head injury please let me know?

See, Files stated to me that he knew he was hit over the head and in a certain way that would be a blow to the back of the head. He has an idea now of possible two people who may have done it.

Please I know what many think about Files but still worth looking into if that should be in a medical report?

Thanks so much.

[Ryan Crowe]

>See, Files stated to me that he knew he was hit over the head and in a certain way that would be a blow to the back of the head. He has an idea now of possible two people who may have done it.<

Who did Files say did it??????????

[Stephen Roy]

Thank you Mr. Roy.

I am very surprised on several of the answers you have given. I never knew it this because of the film from Stone. Even though I like the film version.

In the JFK movie it is David Ferrie who does speak to Jim Garrison.

Well, a motion picture is not evidence. Garrison took a few liberties in his book, and Stone took even more liberties with "JFK". Not criticizing him, it does make for a better film, but not strictly accurate.

As for the 1963 Ferrie interview, there is really only one contemporaneous document, and Garrison is not listed as present at that encounter. And a former ADA told me he was not there in 1963.

As for the 1966 interview, it was John Volz, period. Garrison was not there. As for the 1967 interview, it was Sciambra an Ivon in Ferrie's apartment, and Garrison was not there.

If there is anything in the medical reports about David Ferrie being hit over the head and or any head injury please let me know?

I presume this means at the time of his death. No, there was no evidence of an external blow. The proximate cause of death was a stroke. My understanding is that a few people believe the stroke may have been brought on by some external means.

I have new information about Ferrie's medical condition. He saw a doctor and was actually hospitalized in the fall of 1966. The symptoms he was complaining of are quite interesting.

I have noted before that Ferrie had long experienced severe headaches from 2pm to 6pm. He began complaining of head pain and other symptoms in the spring of 1966 and thought he might have encephalitis. He made out a new will in mid-1966, and the man who performed his autopsy said he had had a couple of previous minor bleeds in his brain area.

See, Files stated to me that he knew he was hit over the head and in a certain way that would be a blow to the back of the head. He has an idea now of possible two people who may have done it.

I don't know much about Files, but I doubt that he was in a position to know much about the circumstances of Ferrie's death. Somebody asked the coroner in 1967 if a sharp external blow might have caused Ferrie's death, and it has entered assassination lore. I think Files may have read that somewhere.

Ferrie was found in his bed, as if he had retired for the evening. There was a small, seemingly bloody mass next to his mouth, as though he had bled or vomited.

[Greg Wagner]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ferrie live in the upstairs half of a duplex? That sure would have made things interesting for his downstairs neighbor. I wonder if anyone has attempted to locate the party that lived downstairs. It would be interesting to know what they saw and heard.

Edited February 16, 2005 by Greg Wagner

[Stephen Roy]

Yes, it was a duplex (see attached picture, if it works, as it looks today). A couple lived downstairs, and the man was his landlord. Their recollections are not as colorful as you might imagine: Lots of teenagers coming and going, Ferrie waliking his dog, strong cigarette smell, etc. They have vivd memories of the day of his death. The man was one of two who found the body, and there were a lot of authorities there for a few days.

[Dawn Meredith]

[

If there is anything in the medical reports about David Ferrie being hit over the head and or any head injury please let me know?

I presume this means at the time of his death. No, there was no evidence of an external blow. The proximate cause of death was a stroke. My understanding is that a few people believe the stroke may have been brought on by some external means.

I have new information about Ferrie's medical condition. He saw a doctor and was actually hospitalized in the fall of 1966. The symptoms he was complaining of are quite interesting.

I have noted before that Ferrie had long experienced severe headaches from 2pm to 6pm. He began complaining of head pain and other symptoms in the spring of 1966 and thought he might have encephalitis. He made out a new will in mid-1966, and the man who performed his autopsy said he had had a couple of previous minor bleeds in his brain area.

____________________________-

Stephen,

Very interesting new information on Ferrie. It sounds as if you believe his death to have been natural causes? Of course that would not take into account the suicide letter, and certainly not the timing of all of this. I hope your book will deal with these matters. (When is it due and is there a title yet?)

______________________

See, Files stated to me that he knew he was hit over the head and in a certain way that would be a blow to the back of the head. He has an idea now of possible two people who may have done it.

I don't know much about Files, but I doubt that he was in a position to know much about the circumstances of Ferrie's death. Somebody asked the coroner in 1967 if a sharp external blow might have caused Ferrie's death, and it has entered assassination lore. I think Files may have read that somewhere.

_________________________________

I think FIles has probably read several books and testimony on this case, which could account for much of his "knowledge", particularily where it is inaccurate information that has been published IN a book, or the various investigations: WC, Church committee (Schwicker/Hart sub committee), HSCA.

________________________________

Ferrie was found in his bed, as if he had retired for the evening. There was a small, seemingly bloody mass next to his mouth, as though he had bled or vomited.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

__________________________

To what do you attirbute this?

Thanks,

Dawn

[Greg Parker]

Slightly mixed up. Ferrie was kicked out of two legit Catholic seminaries as a young man, in the 40s. In the early 60s, he was involved in a non-legit catholic offshoot, but it may be that he was investigating it as an "ordination mill". He was excommunicated for that reason. But he susbsequently became seriously involved in yet another offshoot, a "Basilian" sect.

This would be the Orthodox Catholic Church of the Americas... closely aligned with Old Catholic churches and the Russian Orthodox Church -- unless there was more than one Basilian sect in NO. Extreme r-w and anti-Semitic. Glad to see you're qualifying the assertion he was investing "ordination mills". The idea that HEW would hire the likes of Jack Martin and/or David Ferrie in ANY capacity is farcical.

Probably not true. After his August 1961 morals arrests, he was ostracized by the FRD/CRC in New Orleans. Bill Davy took a July 1961 comment Ferrie made about Operation Mosquito, and guessed that it might have been Mongoose; but Mongoose didn't kick off until several months later.

Mongoose did not suddenly spring forth from a vacuum. The seeds were sown in a report delivered on May 4, 1961called Cuba and Communism in the Hemisphere . From this and meetings held in the following days by the JCS, it was recommended that covert means be used to destabalise Castro's government. By November this was formalised in Operation Mongoose. Since there is no evidwence of any "Operation Mosquito" ever existing, I wonder how Ferrie could be discussing it? Could it be that this was a tentative early title for Mongoose? Whatever the case, your dismissal of the possibility that Ferrie was discussing an operation which became known a few months later as Operation Mongoose seems to assume, as suggested aleady, that this operation sprang out of nowhere.

and the man who performed his autopsy said he had had a couple of previous minor bleeds in his brain area.

You seem determined to use this as almost conclusive evidence that a stroke was inevitable. If so, I have to tell you, you're wrong. Minor brain bleeds are the norm for premature babies -- for known reasons -- but 4.6% of full-term babies suffer brain bleeds which have no medical explanation. Additionally, anyone of any age can have a minor bleed without ever realising it because they suffer no ill effect, and remain healthy in every respect. As I recall, there was no mention of these bleeds until the 1990s, so they were obviously not considered to be of any significance to the Coroner. But then, we also need to consider the source of this claim: Lambert's interview with Dr Welsh.

[Stephen Roy]

[

If there is anything in the medical reports about David Ferrie being hit over the head and or any head injury please let me know?

I presume this means at the time of his death. No, there was no evidence of an external blow. The proximate cause of death was a stroke. My understanding is that a few people believe the stroke may have been brought on by some external means.

I have new information about Ferrie's medical condition. He saw a doctor and was actually hospitalized in the fall of 1966. The symptoms he was complaining of are quite interesting.

I have noted before that Ferrie had long experienced severe headaches from 2pm to 6pm. He began complaining of head pain and other symptoms in the spring of 1966 and thought he might have encephalitis. He made out a new will in mid-1966, and the man who performed his autopsy said he had had a couple of previous minor bleeds in his brain area.

____________________________-

Stephen,

Very interesting new information on Ferrie. It sounds as if you believe his death to have been natural causes? Of course that would not take into account the suicide letter, and certainly not the timing of all of this.  I hope your book will deal with these matters. (When is it due and is there a title yet?)

The timing of Ferrie's death is certainly striking, about a week after Garrison's probe was made public. Regarding the letters (there were two), the shorter one was found in a envelope taped under a table, "to be opened in the event of my death", along with a July 1966 will. It was to a friend, who believes it was probably written that summer. The longer one was found in a pile of papers in the hall. It is a general screed about the legal system and other things. Both are undated, so we can't be sure when they were written.

Beginning in early 1966, Ferrie was having a tough time. He began complaining of health issues, sometimes mentioning encephalitis, sometimes brain cancer. He was fired by a start-up airline. He was fired by a flight school. His attempt to start his own flight school was nixed by the FAA. In July, he made a new will and told people he thought he was dying. A few months later, he was hospitalized. All of which raises the possibility, since the notes were undated, that they may have been "farewell notes".

As for his death, the autopsist listed a burst anyeurism as the proximate cause, and the death occurred sometime between 4am and 11:30am. It is hard to imagine how this could be caused by murder or suicide, although neither can be completely ruled out, so "natural causes" is a real possibility. I have also heard a speculation that it may have been accidental death through medication. Yes, I intend to relate all of these possibilities.

My original title was "The Ferrie File", but I'm leaning toward "Perfect Villain". You couldn't typecast a better villain in this.

______________________

See, Files stated to me that he knew he was hit over the head and in a certain way that would be a blow to the back of the head.  He has an idea now of possible two people who may have done it.

I don't know much about Files, but I doubt that he was in a position to know much about the circumstances of Ferrie's death. Somebody asked the coroner in 1967 if a sharp external blow might have caused Ferrie's death, and it has entered assassination lore. I think Files may have read that somewhere.

_________________________________

I think FIles has probably read several books and testimony on this case, which could account for much of his "knowledge", particularily where it is inaccurate information that has been published IN a book, or the various investigations: WC, Church committee (Schwicker/Hart sub committee),  HSCA.

It is sometimes hard to separate what people know from what they've heard or read.

________________________________

Ferrie was found in his bed, as if he had retired for the evening. There was a small, seemingly bloody mass next to his mouth, as though he had bled or vomited.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

__________________________

To what do you attirbute this?

I'm not sure. The obvious presumtions would be that he either spit up or vomited. But it is also striking that he was found as if he had retired for the evening.

]

[Stephen Roy]

Slightly mixed up. Ferrie was kicked out of two legit Catholic seminaries as a young man, in the 40s. In the early 60s, he was involved in a non-legit catholic offshoot, but it may be that he was investigating it as an "ordination mill". He was excommunicated for that reason. But he susbsequently became seriously involved in yet another offshoot, a "Basilian" sect.

This would be the Orthodox Catholic Church of the Americas... closely aligned with Old Catholic churches and the Russian Orthodox Church -- unless there was more than one Basilian sect in NO.

The group Martin and Ferrie were associated with was the "Byzantine Primitive Catholic Church, Old catholic Church in N.A., Apostolic, Orthodox, Catholic, Order of Saint John", according to the consecration certificates. The group Ferrie alone was associated with was the "Society of the Domestic Missionaries Of Saint Basil the Great", according to his membership card.

Extreme r-w and anti-Semitic. Glad to see you're qualifying the assertion he was investing "ordination mills". The idea that HEW would hire the likes of Jack Martin and/or David Ferrie in ANY capacity is farcical.

First, there's this:

On October 4, 1959, the American Council on Education, acting on a grant from the Carnegie Corporation, issued a report called “American Degree Mills” by Robert H. Reid, charging that “an international ring of agents, operating out of the United States, Canada and various European countries” was engaged in issuing phony college degrees and religious ordinations for cash. Arthur Fleming, the U.S. Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare, was incensed and declared war on the scam. He vowed, among other things, to “confer with religious leaders” to attack “degree mills [that] award many so-called religious degrees” for money and produce a list of the offending mills. In April 1960, he began with a list of 30 degree mills, many with religious sounding names, stating that he would “confer with Justice, State, Postmaster and FTC [Federal Trade Commission] to determine what action can be taken by the feds” to stop them in their tracks. On July 6, the report’s author, Robert Reid, spoke on the issue and mentioned one particular degree mill.

Renewed activity has been reported by an Italian-based institute that deals

both in doctoral and post-doctoral degrees and honors. “Minerva University”,

also known as “Phoenix University” in Bari, Italy is offering American students

correspondence degrees in a wide variety of subjects from advertising to

sanitary engineering.

It claims to be a member of the “American Council of Students and Colleges”,

an organization not listed in any official American directory.

In answer to an official inquiry about the institution, Dr. Fillipo Domini,

director of the Instituto Italiano di Cultura, the Italian cultural office in New

York, wrote that the Bari institutes “are not legally accepted by the Italian

government and the degrees granted by them have no validity according to

Italian law.”

One subject of HEW interest in terms of ordination mills was a man named Carl John Stanley, operating out of Louisville, Kentucky, as The Most Reverend Christopher Maria Stanley, Archbishop Primate of North America, of the Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, among other names. Somehow, Martin became involved in such an investigation. In an effort to acquire hard evidence in the form of a phony certificate of ordination, he was ordained on September 19, 1960 as "Reverend John J.S. Martin", a Priest in the church. He paid Stanley $200. for the phony ordination papers.

Then this, if the scan/attachment works correctly:

Well, the scan failed to upload. It is a letter from Russell Long to Martin on US Senate letterhead, 2/14/62:

Mr. J.S. Martin

PO Box 357

New Orleans 9, La.

Dear Jack:

You may be sure that I will put in a good word with Health, Education and Welfare. I know they will be glad to continue to work with you.

I am glad to have theinformation on Stanley and I am adding it to my file. Keep me advised of further developments in this regards.

With every good wish, I am

Sincerely yours,

Russell

(Martin's handwritten note:)

Dear Russell: This will serve to introduce Mr. Richard Robey of the FAA. Will you please give Dick any help he may need concerniong the matter he will bring up. Thanks, Jack.

I will try again to upload the image as a separate post.

Probably not true. After his August 1961 morals arrests, he was ostracized by the FRD/CRC in New Orleans. Bill Davy took a July 1961 comment Ferrie made about Operation Mosquito, and guessed that it might have been Mongoose; but Mongoose didn't kick off until several months later.

Mongoose did not suddenly spring forth from a vacuum. The seeds were sown in a report delivered on May 4, 1961called Cuba and Communism in the Hemisphere . From this and meetings held in the following days by the JCS, it was recommended that covert means be used to destabalise Castro's government. By November this was formalised in Operation Mongoose. Since there is no evidwence of any "Operation Mosquito" ever existing, I wonder how Ferrie could be discussing it?

Unless he and Arcacha just made the name up.

Could it be that this was a tentative early title for Mongoose? Whatever the case, your dismissal of the possibility that Ferrie was discussing an operation which became known a few months later as Operation Mongoose seems to assume, as suggested aleady, that this operation sprang out of nowhere.

I don't see any solid connection between the names. The earliest references to Mongoose post-dated this.

and the man who performed his autopsy said he had had a couple of previous minor bleeds in his brain area.

You seem determined to use this as almost conclusive evidence that a stroke was inevitable. If so, I have to tell you, you're wrong. Minor brain bleeds are the norm for premature babies -- for known reasons -- but 4.6% of full-term babies suffer brain bleeds which have no medical explanation. Additionally, anyone of any age can have a minor bleed without ever realising it because they suffer no ill effect, and remain healthy in every respect.

I was just relating what the man said. He did examine the body.

As I recall, there was no mention of these bleeds until the 1990s, so they were obviously not considered to be of any significance to the Coroner. But then, we also need to consider the source of this claim: Lambert's interview with Dr Welsh.

No, that is not my source.

[Stephen Roy]

Sorry, tried several times to upload a JPG at low res, but it keeps citing an error message.

[Nancy Eldreth]

Who did Files Say did it?

He only would hint to me on that. He wouldn't tell.

One was in prison of whom he thought did it at that the of several years back saying this to me.

The other was now over seas and retired.

That was his hint. Also that the person was with the knowledge of how to do a blow to the head with his hand that would kill a person.

These were the hints that he gave me.

So about 2 years ago is when Jimmy Files stated this to me and both of the ones that he thinks had done it were both alive.

[Stephen Roy]

Who did Files Say did it?

He only would hint to me on that. He wouldn't tell.

One was in prison of whom he thought did it at that the of several years back saying this to me.

The other was now over seas and retired.

That was his hint. Also that the person was with the knowledge of how to do a blow to the head with his hand that would kill a person.

These were the hints that he gave me.

So about 2 years ago is when Jimmy Files stated this to me and both of the ones that he thinks had done it were both alive.

Well, if there's no evidecne that Ferrie died from a blow, one has to wonder if Files' information is accurate.

[Greg Wagner]

Forgive my limited knowledge re: Files, and please set me straight if I'm off base here, but:

If files was a mob guy, and his claim is that other mob guys (who he names specifically) were the mechanics in DP, then why is Files still rotting in jail not garnering ant attention from the mob or anyone else? I've always been under the impression that if you rat out the mob, especially if you are trapped in prison with nowhere to hide, you can expect to be shivved in about 4 seconds.

And while there seems to have been so much supression of evidence and testimony in this case, along with outright disinformation and attacks on the credibility of those who speak up with potentially real knowledge of the case, Files really has drawn much fire from anyone except people like us who happen to not believe him.

So, even if you accept the role of the mob at level (which I do not), how do you explain the fact that he can go public with the truth and suffer none of these ill effects?

Of course, I could be wrong. I don't claim to be all knowing in this area (or any others, for that matter). Just my opinion. Feel free to fire away and correct me.