George Bollschweiler

It has also been noted on another forum thread that an Agency man by the name of Vincent Pivall was singled out in a Rip Robertson report for outstanding service during the overthrow of Arbenz in Guatemala.

James

there is a link to Vincent C. Pivall

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/ike/guat/20181.htm

concerning his engagement in Guatemala. The part is about in the mid section of the page:

Recommendations for all field personnel considered as having performed in an efficient manner are being presented in separate reports. I wish at this time, however, to place in the body of this report my personal opinion that the key man to the success of this project is Vincent C. Pivall.

Pivall's firm adherence to orders enabled LINCOLN to rely on the fact that plans were being carried out within the realm of possibility and that Principal Agent attempts to alter those plans were minimized. The preservation of KUBARK interests was considered a solemn duty by Pivall and it showed up in the results of his work.

His professional knowledge and direct manner of dealing with the indigenous personnel gained him, and KUBARK, their respect and spirit of camarade necessary to good guidance on operations of this type.

In addition, Pivall's analytical and objective thinking and reporting spotted for LINCOLN many defects in the old Calligeris organization, useful in planning the operation.

It is recommended that his services would be valuable in a KUHOOK staff position within WHD if he is to remain in WHD. If released from WHD, it is recommended that KUHOOK staff consider him for training assignments or a field project assignment after completing a KUHOOK training course at [place not declassified].

George

There is a definite family relationship.  Not sure if they were cousins but it sounds about right.

James, Tim

this is from www.answers.com

Several of the Forbes family cashed out of their dealings in China after the Opium War, and reinvested in Europe and the United States. Some of the population growth of Chicago and Midwestern Plains states in the middle to late 19th century was due to John Murray Forbes' railroad projects in Michigan and Chicago. The Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad Co., from Chicago west to the Pacific was built by John Murray Forbes who had perhaps a reputation for sound financial management amongst the railroad tycoons of the day. In 1879, William Forbes, son of John Murray Forbes, risked the fortune to financially back Alexander Graham Bell's telephone company, and become president of the company, a risk which paid off. Cameron Forbes used his wealth to become Governor General of the Philippines. His niece Ruth Forbes Paine Young tapped her Forbes family inheritance to finance the International Peace Academy. Her husband invented the Bell Helicopter used in the Korean and Vietnam Wars. In a tiny footnote to history, Ruth Forbes Paine Young's son, Michael R. Paine, and his wife Ruth Paine, allowed Maria Oswald, the wife of Lee Harvey Oswald, to live in their house as a family friend, and Oswald's rifle was stored for a time in the Paine's family garage

and this one

October 29, 2004

New York Post reports that Michael Paine, husband of Ruth, was Kerry’s cousin.

October 29, 2004 – CONSPIRACY theorists are buzzing about John Kerry’s connection to Lee Harvey Oswald and the JFK assassina tion. While no one in the lunatic fringe has gone so far as to suggest Kerry helped kill Kennedy — yet — they make much of the fact that a cousin of Kerry’s, Michael Paine, was a close friend of Oswald who fre quently had the assassin as a house guest. Paine even stored the rifle Oswald used to shoot Kennedy at his house. Paine’s mother, Ruth Forbes, and Kerry’s mother, Rosemary Forbes, were cousins. It has never been fully explained how Oswald came to have such socially prominent pals, says A.J. Weberman, author of the JFK assassination book “Coup D’Etat in America,” who notes that according to documents released under the JFK Documents Act, Paine’s sister-in-law and father-in-law were both closely connected with the CIA.

George

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is a definite family relationship.  Not sure if they were cousins but it sounds about right.

James, Tim

this is from www.answers.com

Several of the Forbes family cashed out of their dealings in China after the Opium War, and reinvested in Europe and the United States. Some of the population growth of Chicago and Midwestern Plains states in the middle to late 19th century was due to John Murray Forbes' railroad projects in Michigan and Chicago. The Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad Co., from Chicago west to the Pacific was built by John Murray Forbes who had perhaps a reputation for sound financial management amongst the railroad tycoons of the day. In 1879, William Forbes, son of John Murray Forbes, risked the fortune to financially back Alexander Graham Bell's telephone company, and become president of the company, a risk which paid off. Cameron Forbes used his wealth to become Governor General of the Philippines. His niece Ruth Forbes Paine Young tapped her Forbes family inheritance to finance the International Peace Academy. Her husband invented the Bell Helicopter used in the Korean and Vietnam Wars. In a tiny footnote to history, Ruth Forbes Paine Young's son, Michael R. Paine, and his wife Ruth Paine, allowed Maria Oswald, the wife of Lee Harvey Oswald, to live in their house as a family friend, and Oswald's rifle was stored for a time in the Paine's family garage

George

h.  Firing a wcc 6.5mm Carcano bullet through a small live oak tree limb cause the bullet to lose it's spin, thereby losing it's stability in flight and therefore it begins to tumble in flight.

i. This "tumbling" in flight gives the bullet an end-over-end inertia that even though the bullet may strike an object in an almost perfectly base first attitude, the inertia will continue to drive the base of the bullet downward at an increased angle of entry.  Which, could easily create a 45-degree to 60-degree downward penetration as reported by the autopsy surgeons.

Hi Tom

I find your analyses interesting and very comprehensible; also the way you pose them. I do have a question concerning the “tumbling” of bullets.

When I was in the army, practicing on the shooting range, the targets were mainly made of wood like body silhouettes, we often found bullet entries that did not show the usual round hole, what you would expect, but holes that looked as if the bullets had hit sideways. These bullets have a lead core as well, so could this"tumbling” also be caused by production failure, that due to missing lead in the core, meaning not properly filled or something, the balance of the bullet could have been affected?

George

Stephen I would like to answer with Lennon, but I'm not sure exactly what your question id. Could you perhaps rephrase it?

Hi John

Mark Chapman clearly suffered delusional paranoid schizophrenia, and was receiving psychiatric help during 1979 and 1980. Feeling his very existence was being threatened, he had attempted suicide twice.

He became increasingly fixated on both Holden Caulfield (the fictional hero of J D Salinger's "The Catcher In The Rye") and John Lennon, the rock legend. He told his wife he was going to change his name to "Holden Caulfield", but, at the same time, signed himself out of work as "John Lennon".

In the end, Chapman believed he was living a life that mirrored that of Holden Caulfield and mirrored the unreal superstar life of John Lennon. Chapman was confused and paranoid about who he really was, and perhaps in killing John Lennon, he was trying to kill himself.

So therefore he would not fit Stephen's "Wanted Profile"

George

What may be helpful is if George could weigh in here and advise if any of "Hoffer", "Hoffen", "Schiffen", "Schieffer" or "Drittal" could be German surnames.

Hi Greg

there is no doubt, that SCHIEFFER and HOFFER are common names in german. Now if we take that “f” and “s” problem concerning the old handwriting it could also stay for SCHIESSER and HOSSER which are common names as well.

The name SCHIFFEN as a surname does not exist as far as I checked (German directories) and if you change it to SCHISSEN there is no match either. The word “Schiss” does exists but it means

“fear” (slang) and even another expression I rather not mention here.

HOFFEN as name it is not impossible but again there is no match (Directories), where HOSSEN is a normal name.

Now, what about DRITTAL, the word actually exists but it is an old word for “a third” but sure no surname. The old writing for "s" could also be mistaken for a "t", especially if it is a handwriting. So if you change the “t” and instead write “s” we would have the name DRISSAL and there I found matches even in the States. So the name could have been DF Drissal?

e.g.

Do you maybe have enhanced copy of that card so I could check with some old writings?

George

My reference to Fox News was just throwing red meat to the wolves!

NEWS is dead, long live the INFOTAINMENT.

Why do you imagine that nearly all who meet their end in this fashion are either Socialists, liberals, or reformers.

"Ibi fas ubi proxima merces." (Lucanus)

It seems that this war has been lost a long time ago

George

c) No, JFK was becoming a major problem to powerful vested interest groups and so had to go. and the manor of his departure needed to be graphic in the extreme

Stephen

which one of the powerful vested interest group would you favour? Of course, if you go down to the bottom they are finally all mingled-up with eachother and it is hard to tell who is who.

George

ps. stil got this myth problem Dealey Plaza.....

Then a bullet, possibly two, strikes his head on the top of his head above the hairline to the right of the midline.

John,

just read the following article from 1996 issue of American History magazine.

-Nashville radiologist Dr. Randy Robertson asserts that it is clear from the x-rays and the placement of five specific skull pieces that Kennedy was hit twice, almost simultaneously - once from behind and then from the front. Speaking at the October 1995 COPA conference, Robertson went so far as to suggest that Bethesda's Dr. Finck and Dr. Humes lied in their Warren Commission testimony.-

George

G . I . Issue ?

Hi John

as you see, I've edited my post on that "f" matter but I didn't get your part

George

George, what do you think of the "Gut Schieffer". Do you agree it could have meant "Gut Schiesser" or grammatically perhaps more correct "Guter Schiesser".

Sometimes in "old writing" the S letter will look like a F.

Oder nicht?

Hi Antti

I think you're absolutely right, as the old "s" looks like "f" and can easily be mistaken as a "f". As you sugguested, it could mean "good shooter", something that would point to LHO's sharp-shooter training in the marines.

as a good example, on the last line the first word is Unterstützung means support.

George

"Hoffen" is German for "luck".

Hi Greg,

"hoffen" does not mean luck, it means" to hope", luck in german is "Glück".

George

The symbolism of Dealey Plaza as the place where 'the message' was sent from is arguably a significant factor in identifying the perpetrators.

Hi John,

it is interesting, because someone else mentioned that particular symbolism on a earlier subject. Hope you correct me if I'm wrong but did this symbolism, as you understand it today, have the same importance before the assassination or did it rather develop afterwards?

Is it really possible, that the place of the assassination played a role concerning its history to the plotters?

Maybe because I'm an European I don't get that point right.

George

How about we substitute the term,"Powerful vested interests of the rich" for "class war"How close to agreement are we now.

That I would call "match".

George

Big Brother,how clever of them to choose an Orwelian title

the "Class war" is at the very centre of the assassination

In general I agree Stephen, but IMO this expresion has been used inflationary as terrorism had its all time high in Europe (e.g. RAF, Brigade Rosso).

George

co-operation between individuals for a commom/shared purpose.

Stephen,

I agree although co-operation served each single individual, in achieving these

common/shared purpose the group would/did not hesitate to use its power whatever those powers were to get its goal. Unfortunately it seems like we are loosing this grip to a certain group and try to find our satisfaction in a kind of self-experience that mainly leeds to isolation/frustration.

Financial benifit, Big oil, Big Banking interests, Bell Helicoptor, Dow chemicals,

All ruling classes have but two key objectives,Power, and the destruction of any individual, or group who threatens their supremacy. to the powerful democracy may be tolerated so long as (1) The choise offered to the sheeple is as narrow as possible. (2) No elected official EVER goes against vested interests.(3) The electorate remain docile, and except their rulers definition of freedom, justice equality etc. (4) All main-stream media sing from their hymn sheet, and act as trained attack dogs on any "Nay-sayers"(5) Real power resides in the hands of the unelected (our betters) and is administered for their exclusive benifit. (6)No real challenge to their interests can be allowed,or be seen to go unpunished.The fact that this is not democracy, but a semi-hidden totalitarian system, seems to escape the great majority of citizens.

Stephen, I would agree with most of your piont and I probably come from the same "political" corner as you but there is one thing concerning this issue that

has to be considered: I wouldn't call myself a Darwinist but I do believe that we have to accept our roots and despite all social improvement made in the last decades or centuries, the power that drove us to the piont where we are today

is based on power, egoism, inconsiderateness, brutality and the instinct of self-

preservation (and a few more). IMO it is understandable, that these mechanism

are still very familar and our behaviour can be missled easily. I do not say we have to accept those but if these are considered it helps to understand mankind

and its sometimes "degenerated" activities.

George

And remember Sprague also falsely linked Harry Dean to the assassination of Nixon.

This was sloppy journalism at its worst.

Indeed, indeed

(Just couldn't resist)

George

When looking at the various CT’s which are dealing with LHO and his past concerning that

he was prepared as the patsy based on all the circumstances, Russia, Fairp-Play activities and

possible connections to different agencies etc. it gives the impression of a long in advanced

planned assassination. If you consider the Harvey and Lee theory, it even boosts up the preparation time to a dimension that IMO is somehow doubtful.

When we take JFK last months or only his last weeks it looks to me as if there was almost a competition to kill him. Within a month there were three different attempts to kill JFK.

1)Abraham Bolden did report of a planned attempt on the 2nd of November in Chicago.

Thomas Arthur Vallee, a former marine who took this day off and travelled to Chicago with a M-1 and 3000 bullets, is being arrested but released the same day. The information was taken serious and JFK cancelled his trip to Chicago. Later Bolden, who wondered why his information was excluded from the WC, was arrested and had to spend a couple of years in prison, thanks to Lee Rankin.

2)On the morning of Nov. 9, 1963 a FBI informant, William August Somersett reports about his taped conversation with Joseph Adam Milteer, who told him about the plan to kill JFK in Miami at the 18th of November. According to the House Committee transcript, Milteer told Somersett that the killing of Kennedy "was in the working," that the president could be killed "from an office building with a high-powered rifle," that the rifle could be "disassembled" to get it into the building, and that "they will pick up somebody within hours afterward, if anything like that would happen just to throw the public off."

Again it was taken seriously and security actions were taken to put the risk to a minimum.

3)Finally we end up in Dallas Nov. 22.where President Kennedy gets killed.

As far as I know, neither information about the Milteer remarks apparently were passed on to Secret Service officials responsible for the Dallas trip nor the Chicago plans.

If we believe that the first two attempts, based on the available information we have, happened and can be considered as “real attempts” then we could ask the following questions:

a)Do we have to consider, that there were three different groups who had the same goal and one unfortunately was successful?

b)Or were these three groups controlled all by the same evil force?

c) If there were three diffrent groups, do we have three diffrent motives?

If there was a connection between these three attempts, why are there practically no links? Were those connections not worth further investigations, after/because LHO was arrested and killed?

What about these groups and people like Milteer who threatened the President? They were still around, could even travel to Dallas, did their dangerousness vanished after Kennedy’s death?

I've read elsewhere that Mattei owned a newspaper in Milan called Il Giorno.  Does anyone know what conclusions Mattei's own paper came to?

Pat,

the passengers killed in Mattei’s plane were, Enrico Mattei, Irnerio Bertuzzi the pilot and Williiam McHale from TIME Magazine.

A journalist who worked for “Il Giorno”, Giorgo Bocca described the situation after Mattei’s death as following:” Everybody there (at Il Giorno) was surprised about the silence of Il Giorno after the crash”. He thought that it was their duty to investigate the circumstances of Mattei’s death but their new boss Dr. Cefis was a man who was looking for peace with the oil industry. So they stuck to the official version. Cefis was known as a man whose power was based on mystery-mongering, who had no friends and isolated himself more and more. Finally he sold all his belongings and went to Canada.

Duncan McHale, the son of the killed journalist, tried to investigate his father’s death. He said, that even TIME Magazine, which originally had planed a front page story about Mattei (that was cancelled later) had only little information in its archives about his father’s work. TIME would not give an official statement about Mattei. He also asked the FBI, CIA, Interpol, NSC and the State Department about informations concerning his father’s death. All they (CIA) told me was:”We can not tell you if we have some information or not, but the fact that we are not telling you anything does not mean that we have or haven’t any”. What duplicity indeed.

These infos are from the year 2000. So I think it would be interesting to talk to Duncan McHale. Do you have any information about him?

George

Eugene, I think this car vanished that fast, that nobody is able to see it.

Eugene, actually I was joking because I could not see a picture of the car and therefore I thought you forgot to attach the picture. But maybe I have to check my eyesight or to replace my computer.

George

I was just thinking whether it is possible that the shots that hit and killed President Kennedy were fired from this car which left within seconds of the shots being fired.

Anyone any ideas on this?

Eugene, I think this car vanished that fast, that nobody is able to see it.

George

If Mattei wasn't killed by either the CIA, the mafia, or U.S. oil interests, or some combination of the three, it was only a matter of time.  IMHO

Pat, I'm not quite sure if you did read my post or you just ignored it.

IMO it shows at least a connection between the CIA, their forces "Stay behind" and the organisation Gladio (the italien branch, but controlled by the same people). If Gladio was behind the assassination of Mattei, which was the conclusion of the investigation, then I think we can assume some involvement from the CIA as well.

George

I was, however, unable to find a reference to the History Channel's claim that in 1994 a former member of the mafia admitted they'd killed Mattei by planting a bomb in his plane. If anyone knows who made this confession and under what circumstances it may be helpful.

As for the investigation of 1991 against the Italian Parliament, dealing with the history of the Red Brigades and the background of terrorism, the killing of Enrico Mattei was part of the investigation in the Aldo Moro case. In both cases there were links to the group called "Gladio", the Italian name for what was called

"Stay behind" a Secret-NATO-Troup lead by the CIA. Camillo Guglielmi was in charge of Gladio in Italy with his HQ at the NATO-base in Capo Marrargiu on Sardinia. He was also at the scene to witness the kidnapping of Aldo Moro, to see if everything goes as planed.

In this context, investigation also found out, that one of Mattei's bodyguard was a Gladio Officer, who planted the explosives on the plane. Therefore it was not linked

to the mafia directly.

George