Pat Speer

Tom: "The basic rule is as follows: Allow 1 hour for every 3 miles (5 km) forward, plus ½ hour for every 1000 feet (300 metres) of ascent. ============================================================================= Now! Assuming that the speed of the Presidential Limo to be 9mph (3 X the average walking speed). The limo was travelling almost directly away from the shooter on a downhill grade which also made the shooting easier in that virtually no "tracking" was required. Therefore, it is far more difficult to hit a target walking laterally at 3mph across a field of fire than to hit a target which is moving directly away from the firing position at 9 mph. Tracking the walking target requires some "sniper" ability. Shooting the other one does not. Or do you suppose that all KIA by snipers required notice to the enemy that they must either walk towards or away from the shooter and there would be no "lateral" walking across the field of fire as it made tracking the target too difficult. JFK/the target had virtually no lateral movement, therefore completely eliminating the need to hold a "lead" while also tracking the target laterally. The virtually "away from shooter' movement of JFK/the target (and especially on the downhill slope of Elm St) also required virtually no "lead" and/or tracking. All that one had to do was see the approximate pathway of the target, sight into the area, and then allow the tareget to come into the crosshairs/sights, and then pull the trigger. Thereafter to take another aim in the street ahead of the target and allow the target to again come into the line of fire. All of this BS about "tracking and leading" is just that. The simplicity is to take a firing position aim ahead of the moving target and the target will then come virtually into your sights." So, Tom, in your opinion, would a shot from the Dal-Tex Building be a much easier shot than a shot from the sniper's nest?

Certainly, Tom, as a trained sniper, you know full well that shooting at a moving target is far different than shooting at a stationary target. While those writing in this thread seem convinced the sniper on the sixth floor fired from a kneeling position, I'm not sure this is reflected in the record. Didn't the WC conclude the sniper fired from a sitting position, while using a box as a gun rest? If so, doesn't this run counter to the training Oswald received in the Marine Corps? I've read that the U.S. military trains shooters to fire with the rifle at an angle to the body, and to track moving targets by moving the rifle along with the target. (One book notes that by moving the rifle along with the target--actually, slightly ahead of the target--the bullet will exit the rifle barrel in line with target, and that the slight delay between one's pulling the trigger and the exit of the bullet from the barrel would otherwise guarantee a miss.) Anyhow, if so, the shooter in the sniper's nest--to be firing military style--would need to have been facing the west end of the building, with his left shoulder to the window, and tracking the limo by moving his rifle from left to right. So, to summarize: doesn't the box used as a "gun rest"--which indicates the sniper fired at a fixed location and did not track the limo--suggest the sniper was not military-trained? If not, why not?

I also thought the speech was a strong and important one. To state that the United States will be the friend of anyone who wants to be her friend, and will talk to anyone who wants to talk, etc., represents a clean break from Bush. Obama's saying that the United States is a nation of Christians AND Muslims, etc. was also interesting, particularly in that he said "AND non-believers." I don't recall ANY American politician EVER acknowledging that 20% or more of the American public--people who pay taxes and fight wars etc.--are non-believers. For many years, the attitude has been that you must be a believer to be a good American. Not after today.

Walt, the "Parkland doctors were prepared for the shooting before it even occurred" theory just doesn't float. Wester didn't know what time she received these calls. Furthermore, the questions all related to operating rooms, not emergency rooms. The craniotomy--which evidently was contemplated but not performed--was to be on Kennedy. The thoracotomy was for Connally. Now, is it really likely that anyone would know what wounds would be incurred before the shots had even been fired? And if the SS did know what wounds would be incurred, it would mean they were part of the plot. So why then would they call ahead and prepare the doctors? It simply makes no sense. It seems like a million times more likely that Wester simply forgot the time of the shooting, and that these calls took place after Kennedy was in the emergency room.

Vince, I found an unusual quote regarding the SS that you may also find of interest. It comes from Breaking Cover, a 1980 book written by Bill Gulley, who worked in the White House Military Office in the 1960's and 70's. Gulley relates that "It was apparent to me as soon as I got to the White House in 1966 that the Secret Service had a Seven Days in May mentality. They literally seemed to think the military was going to take over the White House at any moment..." He then relates "Secret Service had teams that periodically swept all the White House offices to be sure no one had dropped any bugs...On two occasions we did find bugs on our telephone after they'd finished their sweep, and our guys left them in place just to confuse the issue. Whichever way you look at it, whether these were Secret Service bugs or somebody else's bugs that they didn't find, it makes them look bad...It got so that if Secret Service got a piece of information about the President's plans, they would withhold it from the military, and the military would do the same thing. Lyndon Johnson only complicated matters. He never fully trusted Secret Service, any more than he ever fully trusted anyone else...no doubt he assumed they were bearing tales about him...Basically, Johnson felt he could do anything he wanted to, that it was nobody's business but his, and that if you worked for him it was your job to protect his privacy--keep his secrets. It was understood, of course, that if you didn't you were a dead man. All the same, the size of some of his secrets was impressive. Like the fact that he had 110,000 acres of land in Chihuahua, Mexico, and used to make clandestine trips to visit it while President."

The TV program Dallas, if anything, only solidified the reputation of the town as being a den of corruption. J.R., the lead character, was the villain, a sociopath. His younger brother Bobby (Hmmm...older brother--John Ross, younger brother--Bobby) was supposed to be the hero of the piece. That people chose to identify with J.R. was considered significant at the time, and symbolic of some sort of decay in American values. As a result, it was decided that in the finale J.R. would realize the error of his ways, and the pointlessness of his life, and commit suicide. He gets drunk, begins arguing with a mirror, while holding a pistol. His brother hears a gunshot and runs into the room, and mutters "Oh my God" (sound familiar?). (While the incredible allure of quick cash led to several reunion movies, in which J.R. returned from hiatus after an attempted suicide, the image of a drunken J.R. arguing with himself in the mirror, and the sound of the gunshot, is the image that prevails.)

Thank you for posting this. There are never too many videos from this time period; some would argue that the intrigues surrounding the making of the CBS Warren Report, would not exactly be dull reading if someone were to write a book about it. I know of several forum members that could vouch for this. Specifically, there were family members of prominent Warren Commission related persons, involved in shifting the focus away from areas that pursued conspiratorial overtones. McCloy was secretly advising the producers of the 67 CBS special defending the Warren Report. The 64 special is also interesting, but for different reasons. Brennan...the WC's "star" witness, destroys his credibility, if I recall, by indicating he saw the bullet strike Kennedy in the head. This was in opposition to his sworn testimony but a few months before. The 64 special also spends some time demonstrating that Oswald was skilled with a rifle, and had been practicing around Dallas. Half-way through the program, however, the official report was released. Cronkite reads from the report, if I recall, but I'm pretty sure he fails to mention that--oops, oh yeah, the Commission determined that all those testifying to Oswald's presence at a gun range were full of beans.

From the WC testimony of Thomas Kelley: Mr. SPECTER. And what is the relative height of the jump seat and the rear seat? Mr. KELLEY. The jump seat is 3 inches lower than the back seat in its bottom position. That is, the back seat of the President's car had a mechanism which would raise it 10 1/2 inches. But at the time of the assassination, the seat was in its lowest position. Here's the schematic used by the HSCA: Exhibit II-19

I have recently completed part four of my video series. It is available at patspeer.com at the link in my signature or on youtube, here I was also recently interviewed on Black Op Radio, an internet radio program hosted by Len Osanic. The archive of this program is available here: black op radio archives

While the tapes are new, the story isn't. Both Johnson and his Secretary of Defense, Clark Clifford, discuss Nixon's meddling in their memoirs. Anthony Summers later contacted Mme. Chennault, the alleged go-between between Nixon and Vietnamese President Thieu, and she admitted her role in the plot. The evidence on this point is so strong, in fact, that mainstream historian Robert Dallek treats it as an established fact in his recent book Kissinger and Nixon. Thus, history shows that Nixon 1) interfered with the peace process in 68, while telling the American public he had a secret plan for peace, and 2) dragged the war out for 4 more years while hoping to win "peace with honor" and assure his own re-election. History also shows that his dragging the war out, and bombing Cambodia, helped de-stabilize that country, and led to the deaths of millions at the hands of the Khmer Rouge. Thus, Nixon's lies and deceptions led to the deaths of millions, and he is one of history's greatest thugs. Ironic considering he wanted people to view him as a "peacemaker".

I just looked at the Moorman photo and Kellerman is not looking at Moorman. And if not at 315, then at what frame?

[quote name='Pamela McElwain-Brown' date='Nov 27 2008, 02:18 AM' post='158978' What information did you use to come up with your assumption? At what Z frame are you placing the Moorman? Z-315. While JFK's head jerks slightly forward and then back between 312 and 315, I don't believe there's much of a jerk towards the left. The HSCA trajectory analysis, which had lots of problems, determined he was leaning 25 degrees to his left in 312. I believe that's the one thing it got right.

What is being done to show Mack in error ... surely not using Zapruder's view when talking about Hat Man's. Bill You have to be joking, Bill. Jackie is clearly looking into JFK's face in Z-312. She is not in a position to be hit by a shot from the fence exiting the left side of JFK's head. The Moorman photo shows this as well. So why did Mack 1) position the Jackie re-enactor (or allow the Jackie re-enactor) to smother the JFK re-enactor in her arms, and place her head behind his head; and 2) run over to the skull shot from the fence in Sylmar and immediately blurt that the shot would have killed Jackie? While Mack has admitted that the re-enactor was in the wrong position and that a shot from the fence wouldn't have hit Jackie, he has not come clean by admitting that this was HIS mistake, and not the mistake of some anonymous person working on the program. Either he has made a really dumb error--which is possible, we all make mistakes--or he has participated in a deliberate deception. After all, of the many millions that will eventually watch this program, how many will EVER come to know that Gary admitted almost immediately that the positioning of Jackie, which was central to the program's conclusion that no shot came from the knoll, was in error. Very few. From chapter 16c

Yes Kathy, I think you've hit the nail on the head, this whole thread was started for no better reason than to get Dankbaar some cheap publicity. The guy posts here insulting and besmirching serious researchers acting so self-righteous and noble. Whilst we all know the only real interest Dankbaar has in the case is to make money. The mans a bloody vulture. He must think were all idiots here. He and that Pamela Ray woman should hook up....they would make the perfect couple. Denis, I don't think your portrait of Wim is accurate. I think he is sincere in his interest in the case, as is Mack. I share Wim's concern, however, that Mack has "crossed over." Before this most recent program, I would have thought such a thing was silly. But Mack made some very strange statements in Inside the Target Car, which I'm still trying to process. For example, could he really have thought Jackie was behind JFK's head in Z-312? That's JFK 101 kind of stuff. Could Gary really have blown that one?

I just thought I'd let those who missed the program or who still feel like discussing it that I have continued to add to chapter 16c, and have added several more slides to this chapter.

Paul, in chapters 10 through 12c at patspeer.com, I examine the single-bullet theory in detail, and demonstrate as well as anyone I think that the theory is extremely problematic, and that TV shows making it seem nice and logical are deliberately deceptive. If you're short on time you may wish to just look at the slides, as they pretty much tell the story. I trust you'll find it interesting. Pat

Pamela, in the review of the program in chapter 16c of my webpage, I criticize Mack and the program for a number of things, including their not explaining to their viewers that their test casts doubt that the bullet hit at the cowlick entrance--an entrance invented out of necessity years after the shooting in order to explain the purported lack of a bullet path connecting the EOP entrance and the exit on the cerebrum, but confirmed by no one who actually saw the body. As far as your suggestion that the supposed exit location was not accessible from the SN, I assure you this is incorrect. One of the little realized facts about the assassination is that JFK's head was tilted 25 degrees or so to its left at the moment of the head shot. This puts the area above his ear--the presumed exit location--near the top of his head, and accessible to a shot fired from above and behind. The confusion on this point comes from people studying Kennedy's position in z-312, a frame filmed from Zapruder's location 10 degrees or so above Kennedy. Kennedy is tilted 15 degrees or so from Zapruder, which means he's tilted about 25 degrees from horizontal. This fact is confirmed by the Moorman photo. As far as Gary Mack's status as a CT--I take the man at his word when he says that he is still a CT. But you are right in that his television appearances seem to indicate the opposite. In this most recent program, he was instrumental in deceiving the audience on a number of points. He was used to hide that Nellie thought the first shot hit. He was used to hide that the witnesses standing in front of the TSBD thought the first shot came from west of the building. He was used to suggest there was an innocent explanation for the movement of Kennedy's head wound. And he makes up lame excuses when the tests performed for the show cast doubt on the official findings, and the theories of Baden and Sturdivan et al. This is why I'd like to think he pushed for the release of the footage of the third shot. I'd like to think Gary's been playing footsie with these guys for a reason (access) and that he's not just playing with them to get a small taste of fame.

More screen grabs from the previously un-shown footage, demonstrating the similarities between the impact of the tangential shot and Z-313. All these images are discussed in detail at chapter 16c at patspeer.com

I don't see what this has to do with anything. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Dr. Mantik, and am not claiming that I am smarter than him or anything like that. Dr. Mantik and I agree on many things. We agree that F8 (what I call the mystery photo) shows the back of the head. We agree that the 6.5 fragment supposedly on the back of the head isn't really on the back of the head. We agree that the white section toward the back of the head on the lateral x-ray, is abnormal. We also disagree on some things. I'm not aware of his ever debunking any of my research or conclusions, however. So whose research is superior is irrelevant. What is relevant is that on this forum and on my webpage, I have argued that a full metal jacket traveling through the middle of Kennedy's head from the EOP entrance would not blow the top of his head off, and would leave large fractures at entrance and a slightly larger hole at exit. The shot from the knoll on the Discovery Channel program did exactly that. This casts doubt that a bullet traveled through Kennedy's head from the EOP. The shot striking Kennedy, we should remember, supposedly created minimal fractures at entrance and an enormous exit, due in part to the explosion of a tremendous temporary cavity. This did not happen on the program. I have also argued that shot striking Kennedy at the "cowlick entrance" would not create the wounds reported in the autopsy report, and shown on the x-rays, but would blow the top of Kennedy's head off. The Discovery Channel confirmed this as well. But, most importantly, I have argued that the bullet striking Kennedy at frame 313 struck Kennedy on the side of his head from behind and created a tangential wound of both entrance and exit. The bullet striking the side of the simulated head on the outtake created a similar wound, but more significantly, created a debris cloud quite similar to that seen on Z-313, and made a large skull fragment shoot forward at the same angle as the large fragment in Z-313. The bullet's impacting on the back of the head did not re-create this pattern. This shot therefore confirms my conclusions. Now you can argue all you want that the Zapruder film is fake. But the shot depicted on the Zapruder film at 313, real or fake, is a tangential shot striking Kennedy on the side of the head. I feel quite certain now that it is only a matter of time before this is recognized as a scientific fact. I just hope it's sooner rather than later.

Thanks Wade. I just took a look...and the test confirms EVERYTHING I've been saying. The explosion of bone from this tangential shot re-produces Z-313, almost exactly. The beveling of bone seen on the simulated head is a keyhole entry, and matches the beveling on the Harper fragment almost exactly. There can be no doubt now that the bullet hitting Kennedy at 313 was a tangential shot impacting at the supposed exit location. Dr. Clark was right. Wait just a moment, Pat. Did you not notice that there is actual no point of entry? That conflicts with the existing WC drawings, not to mention the x-rays and autopsy photos, doesn't it? Also, did you happen to notice that the dummy head was not in the Z312 position? That then opens the door to the question, 'if the head were in the Z312 position and the results were that shown in this clip, where did that shot come from'? A third question might be to ask why, since we know the DC and Gary Mack have shamelessly cherrypicked and misrepresented information in order to suit their agenda, would they not feature this test prominently in their show instead of attempting to minimize it? Pamela, over the last several years I have studied the head wounds and wound ballistics more than any other researcher I know. This study made clear to me that the shot at frame 313 did not hit Kennedy on the back of the head, and was a tangential shot hitting Kennedy on the side of the head, just as originally proposed by Dr. Clark in Dallas. Gary Mack, presumably, knows of my studies, as he follows this forum and has sent me many e-mails regarding my posts. I find it hard to believe that he didn't recognize that the explosion of bone from this "missed" shot mirrored the explosion shown in the Z-film, and supported my conclusions. Accordingly, I'd like to think this clip's re-emergence from the dust-bin had something to do with Gary's desire to sneak this info out into the light. If so, I'm deeply appreciative.

Thanks Wade. I just took a look...and the test confirms EVERYTHING I've been saying. The explosion of bone from this tangential shot re-produces Z-313, almost exactly. The beveling of bone seen on the simulated head is a keyhole entry, and matches the beveling on the Harper fragment almost exactly. There can be no doubt now that the bullet hitting Kennedy at 313 was a tangential shot impacting at the supposed exit location. Dr. Clark was right.

While I can understand why anyone interested in the case--single-assassin theorist or conspiracy theorist--would want to be involved in testing the various head shot trajectories, the program Inside the Target Car, much like the previous Beyond the Magic Bullet, was agenda-driven, and spun the results of its tests to fit a pre-ordained agenda. Mack was the press secretary selling us the WMDs in the TSBD, so to speak. Now he can be like Scott McClellan, and admit he was wrong, or he can be like Colin Powell, and fade away, or he can be like Dick Cheney, and remain unrepentant for the misinformation he's helped propagate. In Inside the Target Car, Mack was inserted to cut off Nellie Connally's description of the shots, and to tell the viewers that people didn't really know what the first shot was. This was an obvious ploy to HIDE from those uninformed that Nellie felt 100% sure that the first shot hit the President. Now, why would they do this? Well, it should be obvious. This was the same production team that propped up the single-bullet theory in a previous program, and persisted in the complete fantasy that the first shot missed. They are apparently so agenda-driven that they can't even allow Nellie Connally to contradict them on their program, for fear it might cause someone to--GULP--doubt the scenario they are so desperate to sell. A few minutes later, in order to help sell that the tests performed in the program were necessary, Mack appears again to tell everyone that the Dealey Plaza earwitnesses were unreliable, as tests performed in 1978 showed that sounds echoed all over the place. This is a misrepresentation of the evidence, apparently a deliberate misrepresentation of the evidence. The tests, in fact, showed that it was quite easy to tell shots from the knoll from shots from the sixth floor sniper's nest when standing in front of the building. More than half those standing in front of the building on 11-22-63, nevertheless, thought the shots came from west of the building. Mack does not mention this. It seems likely from this that, even though citing reasons to suspect shots were fired from the knoll would make the program's subsequent tests of shots fired from that location more dramatic, it had been decided that NO compelling reasons to believe shots came from the knoll would be discussed in the program. The program was out to sell a certain scenario, not honestly discuss reasons to doubt that scenario. But those situations pale in comparison to what happens a bit later. When deciding to shoot at the "cowlick" entrance on the skull, as opposed to the EOP entrance, Mack claims that this entrance is based on the autopsy photos and x-rays, something the Warren Commission did not have. The program leaves unsaid that this entrance was not observed by anyone who actually saw the body. Mack and the program also leave unsaid that people who DID see the body, most notably, the autopsy doctors, radiologist, and photographer, ALL uniformly claimed the entrance wound was four inches lower on the skull than the location used in the program, AFTER reviewing the autopsy photos and x-rays. He also misled his viewers by saying the Warren Commission did not have the autopsy materials. Both Arlen Specter and Earl Warren would later admit to looking at one or more of the photos, and to deciding not to share the content of what they saw. Even worse, Warren strictly forbade the autopsy doctors from reviewing the photos before their testimony. That Mack chose to misrepresent the problems with the medical evidence, rather than admit the head wound location is in dispute, suggests that he has either drank the Kool-Aid himself or is in the business of selling Kool-Aid. Presumably, the program's creators needed him to explain why they were testing the cowlick entrance and he quickly came up with something. That such misrepresentations make it on the air, and that Mack never admits they were mistakes, however, is distressing. Which is more disloyal? Admitting that a program in which you functioned as an associate producer was deceptive? Or routinely appearing on deliberately deceptive television programs with clear-cut agendas designed to make those who support you look foolish? If Mack remains a CT, he's the Joe Lieberman of CTs.

I agree with both those defending Gary and criticizing him. He is a good guy, and generous with his knowledge and his time. He is also an Associate Producer on a series of programs clearly designed to deceive people into accepting the single-assassin theory. (Honestly presenting the evidence against conspiracy would be one thing, but these programs ARE blatantly deceptive). Now, if Gary was to denounce even SOME of the deceptions in these programs--such as Dale Myers' improper positioning of the jump seat in Beyond the Magic Bullet or the animation at the end of Inside the Target Car dishonestly depicting the large fragment exploding from Kennedy's head at 313 landing on the back of the car, his stock would rise a heck of a lot in my opinion.

They showed footage from each angle to back up what they said. I don't recall if it was clear, however, if the footage was shot from the absolute top of the slope, or just towards the top of the slope. It was interesting, however, that from this angle the bullet passed through the windshield quite close to where there was a defect in the windshield. Of course, that defect was supposedly caused from the other direction. They failed to discuss this in an intelligent fashion, of course. It was "Look, this trajectory would pass through the windshield! Next!"

Here is my discussion of Inside the Target Car. It includes a number of images, demonstrating my points. http://www.patspeer.com/chapter16c%3Aconfi...ddisappointment