1 hour ago, Pete Mellor said:

Ron, D.J.'s Zoom was a biggie!  Somewhere around 4 hours.  I usually get a msg from Bart when the recording has been uploaded onto D.P.U.K.'s You Tube.

When that has been completed I'll post onto the Forum.

Thanks Pete...  a pleasure talking with all of you.  Thanks again for the invite

1 minute ago, David G. Healy said:

nice stuff David and Chris.... 

Great to see you David.  Hope you're well.

39 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

In short, CE 573 odds-on is not the true Walker Bullet, and beyond that, the whole Walker episode may have been staged. In fact, LHO might have played a role in the farce, but not with a Mannlicher-Carcano. 

Good to be back in the mix... and chat with you again

black is white... up is down...   oh, the JFK "situation"

4 minutes ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

The DPD committed numerious violations of the procedures set forth in the manual of crime scene investigation that was in effect in 1963. Perhaps the most serious violations were not taking photos of shells on the ground where they were located both at the Tippit shooting and on the sixth floor. Fritz picked up the shells before they were photographed. They disturbed the "snipers nest", did not photograph the paper bag and Fritz ejected the unfired shell in the rifle chamber rifle. These "errors" allowed the FBI to paper over the evidence and manufacture the historic record they needed to pin the assassination on Oswald.

In our mock trial, Bill Simpich and I had prepared a long list of evidentiary challenges that we later agreed to drop in the interests of time. But in a real trial, the government would have struggled to support its evidence.      

I know I sound like a broken record...  The Evidence really IS the Conspiracy here.   Not a single solitary item incriminating the man would ever have seen the light of day in a courtroom...  not with Larry and Bill defending the man...  or Lane or Perry Mason for that matter.

3 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

I think the man who went past brewers store and into the theatre when Julia Postal was distracted, up into the balcony, was the killer of tippit, not Oswald. I think Oswald was already a paid ticket patron seated on the main floor area, already there (to meet someone, perhaps Carl Mather). I think Applin was mistaken in thinking ruby was there, probably some heavyset unrecognized law enforcement person or fbi man or something seated in the back watching.

Ok... so Oswald did not kill Tippit; on this we agree.  Which in turn creates a domino effect related to the evidence of his doing it with the pistol they claimed was his.

https://www.kennedysandking.com/images/pdf/JosephsPistol.pdf. This explains my pov better than anything I can write here.

And speaking of Tippit... what is your explanation for the disappearing wallet and ID attributed to a wallet found in Irving that day?

From where Brewer's store was, seeing anyone do anything at the theater would be extremely difficult...  and of course there is the Tommy Rowe and IBM dudes aspect to that story.  

Help me understand what you mean though.  A number of DPD reports call out an arrest of someone in the balcony... do you suppose that was the man taken out the back in front of Haire, yet disappears?

7 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

If you buy the idea of Oswald as a patsy then it is believable there would be an attempt to kill him the day of the assassination. Here is Oswald in the theatre and an armed and reloaded killer of tippit goes into the balcony of the very theater Oswald is. Why do that? To kill Oswald, then to escape maybe steal a vehicle out the back door if someone happened to leave a key and an engine running and was gone from the vehicle (as was the case). 

Where do you get the idea that whoever actually killed Tippit went to the theater?

Oswald went to the theater and by looking at his activities there it was obvious he was looking to meet someone.  Why else does he have the ripped dollar bills which disappear from the case as soon as they are found?

Why is Ruby at the theater? You were aware of that, yes?

Who do they arrest in the balcony?

As to stealing a vehicle from out the back door, there was a pickup truck in the alley behind the theater when the DPD gets there that they checked and thought was strange... and then of course we have Bernard Haire who sees "Oswald" taken out the back into the alley and driven away.

Help us understand please

1 minute ago, Chris Bristow said:

The provenance of the film and the accounts surrounding the Hawkeye works are compelling. But I really  examine those issues closely. So I'm not saying that there isn't multiple problems in the film, I just stick to the low hanging fruit that has a possible photogrammetric answer. So about 9 out of 10 of the things I look at are explainable.

I brought up much more than Hawkeyeworks - ie where did the Rowley film go after Rowley... and where is it now?
how does an automatic counter skip a number without explanation?
And what about Max's note?

Chris, instead of dealing with the ancient zfilm anomalies we've already debunked repeatedly over the years... Deal with what I posted please.

Can you address any of the issues I specifically point out or we just going to ask and answer our own questions now?

Explain the 4 or 5 things in my post...  and maybe go read Chris Davidson's threads and work to understand what he's accomplished.  He discussed Costella's work as well.
(Costello was the guy who worked with Abbott; Costella help us better understand the zfilm given us was not from Zapruder)

I majored in math and statistics and made my career on same and STILL had to work especially hard to understand his work...

His grasp of the mathematics involved is unrivaled.  And how he illustrates what the FBI/SS did to insure one thing matched another is superb. 

If you are dismissing this work without fully appreciating it, I think you do yourself a disservice.

Respectfully.

DJ

1 minute ago, Greg Doudna said:

I suppose it was to be able to reload immediately, so as to be able to kill again at the theater.

So ducking into the theater was already planned out at the Tippit scene?  Interesting.

The man can go in virtually any direction and instead confines himself in a closed space with little opportunity for escape.

Please tell us more

1 hour ago, Norman T. Field said:

The question is: why would a man with a revolver eject shell casings at a crime scene? 

To leave incriminating evidence like the bogus wallet, to add to Oswald's guilt.

.38 special shells were use by police departments across the US at the time

This compares the bullets supposedly found on him and their smudged sides, and bullets kept in a police belt.

2 hours ago, Michael Crane said:

Was Ruby's bullet loaded with poison or did it just hit vital organs?

Hi Michael...

As I understand it, he was shot more in the stomach yet in the ambulance on the way to Parkland the EMT supposedly gives him CPR/Compressions which actually makes the matter for Oswald much worse.  No poison bullets... reign it in conspiracy dude... lol (jk)

What has always struck me is the lack of any apparent blood on Oswald... granted the sweater is black but here it is hiked up a bit and nothing, anywhere.

Although now I look again, the left side of the sweater does look wet...

1 hour ago, Bob Ness said:

Murphy was a well-known upper echelon spook who was at the Berlin Operations Base (BOB) for some time IIRC.

Thanks Bob.  Do you know if he was on McCoy's side or Angleton's re: Nosenko?

23 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Sounds like a Jack Ruby police buddy reunion that day in the basement.

Pierce, Vaughn, Harrison, Dean...who else?

There are estimates he knew over 50% of the force... hundreds of DPD men were aware of Ruby with many many of them much closer than that.

Fritz and Curry disavow knowing him, of course, we can't have that now can we?

And we have this referring to 1953, Westbrook and Ruby.  Got to wonder how an HR guy gets to make those decisions unless it came from above... more below IN REF TO WESTBROOK

PUTNAM WAS IN THE CAR WITH PIERCE AND MAXEY

Westbrook above with Morales in Vietnam after he left the DPD.

.

17 minutes ago, Jeff Carter said:

I’ve been curious as to the identity of one of the police officers, seen at 3:43

That's Patrick DEAN... the first and only DPD person to claim Ruby had come down the ramp; and a xxxx from the word go.

Sgt. Dean said, “When I got back to the city hail, I contacted Lieutenant Pierce and advised him--that's when I talked to Pierce about my conversation with Ruby, and I told him that I had talked to Ruby and that he told me that--how he had gotten into the basement, which was breaking security, and that Officer R. E. Vaughn was the man involved….

He (Pierce) notified the captain (Talbert) of this.” 
 

Putnam, in the car with Pierce and Maxey going up the Main street ramp & was the same man Westbrook claims had the keys to the car which honked in front of 1026 Beckley...#207.  small freaking world.

Dean claimed Sorrels was in the room when Ruby told him this.   Griffin knew better and called him on his BS.

DEAN FAILS TO ID RESERVIST TAKING BROCK’S PLACE
STICKS TO STORY HE SAW RUBY – AND RUBY TOLD HIM ABOUT RAMP
GRIFFIN THINKS DEAN HIDING MATERIAL FACTS ABOUT ENTRANCE, THAT DEAN MAY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO STOP RUBY
GRIFFIN/HUBERT SEND MEMO TO RANKIN FOR FURTHER INVESTIGATION
DEAN COMPLAINS TO WADE ABOUT GRIFFIN
WADE CALLS NEW POTUS JOHNSON WHO PRESSURES WARREN
Texas attorney general Waggoner Carr accompanied Dean to Washington DC when he met and shared his complaints with Earl Warren about Griffin’s behavior. Griffin was not allowed to confront Dean at the Warren-Dean meeting 

In his report to Chief Curry two days later, on November 26, Dean said that Ruby told him “in the presence of Mr. Sorrels that he (Ruby) had entered the basement through the ramp entering on Main Street.” Dean told the WC about their conversation. Ruby allegedly told Dean, "I walked in the Main Street ramp…I have just been to the Western Union to mail a money order to Fort Worth…. I walked from the Western Union to the ramp…. I saw Sam Pierce drive out of the basement. At that time, at the time the car drove out is when I walked in.” 

Mr. HUBERT. Now, subsequently, of course, it turned out that Ruby shot Oswald. Did you know him prior to that time?
Lieutenant PIERCE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Ruby?
Lieutenant PIERCE. Yes, sir; I have known him 12 or 13 years, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you would recognize him without any difficulty whether he had a hat on or not?
Lieutenant PIERCE. I don't think I would have any trouble recognizing him if I saw him.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not, see him in that crowd to your right?
Lieutenant PIERCE. No; I didn't see him that day at all.

Agent Sorrels, head of the Secret Service in Dallas, reported that Ruby “said no such thing.” 

Mr. HUBERT. And he said he came in through the ramp, I believe you said.
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.

SORRELS. Now, I might put in here as an explanation that these are in response to questions that Captain Fritz was asking him. That he had this gun for 2 or 3 years. That George Senator was a roommate. That he came in the basement--the word "basement" is not shown here
he "came in off Main Street, off of the ramp"
 

I was 17 when this hit the theaters... and a regular watcher of the Flying Circus

"It's just a flesh wound."

"We want, a shrubbery"

42 minutes ago, Joseph Backes said:

 I think I have, and probably many others.  

Well, I found this  ( RIF #104-10425-10008 )  and I'm just stunned.  Look at para 2.  

"Mr. David Murphy, an Agency official under [ redacted ] and he requested that his true affiliation not be revealed at this time. He is still under cover and uncoordinated revelation of his true status could become an embarrassment to the [redacted]"

WOW! 

I hope this isn't old news.  I just discovered this today.  

Joe

 

Here's the actual link Joe... yours just brings you back to this page.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2022/104-10425-10008.pdf

Seems to me Murphy is another CIA agent posing as a State Dept official...   but I am nowhere near as well-versed on that as others here.

the document goes on to request to not reveal the Jan 21 exec session transcript pages 63-73

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1326#relPageId=63 

Sgt. Putnam assigned Officer Roy Vaughn to guard the Main St. ramp and obtain identification from anyone who wanted to use the ramp for entry into the basement. Vaughn began his assignment at 9:30 AM and stood two to three feet inside the very narrow ramp. Vaughn had known Ruby since 1959 and insisted that Ruby did not go down the Main St. ramp.

At 11:18 AM, as Ruby was leaving the Western Union office, Lt. Rio Pierce, accompanied by Sgt. James Putnam and Sgt. Billy Joe Maxey, drove an unmarked police car up the ramp and onto Main St. All of these officers knew Jack Ruby, and all said that nobody, including Ruby, came down the ramp as the car was moving up the ramp and onto Main St.

Sgt. Don Flusche was the “watch commander” and was parked across the street when he watched the unmarked police car drive onto Main St at 11:18 AM. Flusche knew Jack Ruby for years and said that Ruby did not walk down Main St., was not anywhere the ramp, and did not go down the ramp.

Harry Tasker, a cab driver, was hired by a reporter to wait outside the police building from 9:40 AM to 12:25 PM to be available to carry film of Oswald’s transfer. Tasker parked his cab across the street from the Main St. ramp and stood at the entrance to the basement 5 minutes before Oswald was shot. Tasker saw the police car drive up the ramp and leave the building but did not see anyone who resembled Ruby go down the ramp.

UPI reporter Terrance McGarry was standing on the northern portion of the Main St. ramp 5 minutes before Oswald was shot. McGarry did not see anyone resembling Ruby come down the ramp.

Detective W. J. Harrison watched the car driven by Lt. Pierce go up the ramp and said nobody came down the ramp. 
 

5 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Yet, a man fitting Ruby's description and without press ID is allowed to walk back and forth on the police cleared sidewalk up until mid-morning?

11/24/63 
2:15/2:30/3:00AM CALLS MADE TO SHERIFF, DPD AND FBI SPEAK OF KILLING OSWALD DURING XFER
DPD CALL ANSWERED BY BILLY GRAMMER
GRAMMERS AFFIDAVIT GIVEN PERSONALLY TO CURRY STATING THIS WAS RUBY, DISAPPEARS AND GRAMMER NEVER TESTIFIES
GRAMMER SAYS CALLER KNEW DETAILED PLANS OF TRANSFER ONLY AVAILABLE TO DPD/FBI
4:00AM RUBY ARRIVES HOME

8:00AM WBAP CREWMAN RICHEY ID’s RUBY IN FRONT OF CITY HALL
ALSO AT 8AM – ELNORA PITTS, RUBY’S MAID, CALLS TO CONFIRM HER CLEANING THAT DAY
“DOES NOT SOUND LIKE RUBY”
MRS. PITTS SAID, "He didn't talk like--he never did sound like hisself." The only other person known to be in Ruby's apartment that Sunday morning was George Senator, Ruby's roommate 
9:30AM PLANO TX PREACHER SPEAKS WITH RUBY IN CITY HALL ELEVATOR

10:00AM RICHEY SEES RUBY AGAIN OUT FRONT
10:19AM RECORDS SHOW THIS IS THE TIME CARLIN CALLS RUBY LONG DISTANCE
PRIOR TO 10:20AM GRAMMER TELLING CURRY ABOUT RUBY’s CALL YET CONVEYS THIS TO NO ONE
CURRY SUGGESTS TO ASST CHIEF BATCHELOR AND DEPUTY CHIEF STEVENSON THAT OSWALD BE TRANSPORTED IN AN ARMORED CAR – BOTH MEN AGREE

10:20AM CURRY TELLS PRESS OSWALD WILL BE XFERED TO COUNTY JAIL BY ARMORED TRUCK
10:30AM RUBY ASKS WBAP CREWMAN IRA WALKER “HAS HE BEEN BROUGHT DOWN YET?

RUBY COULD NOT HAVE BEEN AT HIS APARTMENT TO RECEIVE CALL FROM KAREN CARLIN

HIS ALIBI WAS FAKE
 

AT 10:45AM BROCK, WHO PERSONALLY KNEW RUBY, WAS REASSIGNED TO TRAFFIC DUTY AND LEFT WORSLEY AS ONLY DPD STAFF GUARDING ENTIRE DARKENED PARKING AREA

BEFORE 11:00AM WORSLEY WAS ALSO SENT TO WORK TRAFFIC

AN UNIDENTIFIED RESERVE OFFICER TAKES BROCK’S PLACE?  CROY is a Reserve Officer

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't understand. You have said here, if I understand it in your affidavit, that you saw a man whom you believed to be Jack Ruby.
Mr. CROY. I believed when I wrote that up it was him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, have you since come to believe that that man wasn't Jack Ruby?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You still believe that man was Jack Ruby?
Mr. CROY. To myself, I still believe it was Jack Ruby

Mr. Griffin: Who checked the stairway door in the garage that leads up into the municipal building?
Mr. Dean: The stairway door?
Mr. Griffin: Yes.
Mr. Dean: I don't know of any door that leads up into the--the stairway?
Mr. Griffin: There is a stairway…. over where the elevators are
Mr. Dean: Oh, Oh, yes
Mr. Griffin: Who checked that door?
Mr. Dean: Sergeant Putnam checked it once and I checked it once and it was locked.
Mr. Griffin: Did you know at the time you checked it that even though the door was locked from the outside, it could be opened from the inside?
Mr. Dean: [No response.]

Both BROCK and WORSLEY were stationed between the red and green lines below.  Brock by the stairs (who was well acquainted with Ruby) and Worsley in the middle of the parking area who also knew Ruby very well...  both men removed within 15 and 30 mins of Ruby coming.

this is the front of the 1st floor stairs.. Ruby enters a similar door on the opposite side to the left of the service elevator in the distance...  remove this building and we are facing directly at the Western Union office

HSCA CONCLUSION:

THE “ALLEY” ROUTE WAS THE MOST LIKELY ALTERNATIVE

FBI/DPD DID NOT CONSIDER ALLEY ENTRANCE

WC IGNORED THE POSSIBILITY ENTIRELY
STILL DOES NOT CONSIDER TIMING BASED ON RUBY’S MOVEMENTS CONVEYED TO FRITZ WHO SHUTS DOWN INTERROGATION TO BRING OSWALD DOWN…

On the page prior to above in the HSCA report:

Capt. William Westbrook, a member of the DPD special investigative unit (to ID who saw what in the basement), indicated in 1978 that the alley door was not checked that morning (287) (although his basis for this statement was not clear)

On 4/28/2023 at 9:47 PM, Chris Bristow said:

Yes obviously digitized and likely some other filters applied. But I can't think of any process that would duplicate the image. I suppose it could be tampered with and faked, but I'm not sure why some one would go to the effort of making this tiny alteration that would most likely go unnoticed.

I find 9 out of 10 alteration claims in the Z film have rational answers. Every time one gets debunked I learn something new about photogrammetry. So if someone can offer a definitive explanation I would benefit by it. 

Let me also ask you about this film sent by Max PHILLIPS

It gets to Rowley the evening of the 22nd/early 23rd... then what?

Can you offer us anything that then traces this film beyond Rowley that night?

If not as I assume, what's to say this was not actually 0184 then sent to Hawkeyeworks, then brought to Dino Sat night?

edit:  0183 does not even appear on the "original" film nor is it in the right place if reproduced accurately, in the SS copy... only 1 SS copy.

2 hours ago, Charles Blackmon said:

On 4/28/2023 at 9:47 PM, Chris Bristow said:

 

I find 9 out of 10 alteration claims in the Z film have rational answers. Every time one gets debunked I learn something new about photogrammetry. So if someone can offer a definitive explanation I would benefit by it. 

Not to derail your OP but what was the 1 out of 10 Z film alterations that you could not explain away?

I'd beg to differ here Chris...  Davidson's work destroys the authenticity of the zfilm available to us.  Horne's work with Dino and Homer as well.
Then there is 0184 on a sequential counter which simply is not possible... and oh about 4 other spots in the film that are not physically possible.

Have you seen the original's film map.. 6 splices and you contend no alterations? uh, ok.  There is simply no possible way this is the out of the camera original and it would sure be nice to not have to regurgitate this every time someone thinks otherwise.

Common sense... if someone handed you this film in this state - you'd conclude it was original out of the camera? Really?

Z also had the best first day copy...  that makes 5 total films, not 4.

I believe that's Newman... here they are just afterward

I was curious whether the members felt John and I adequately showed how the DPD (Dean, Pierce, Putnam, et al) stripped the security from the parking area between those stairs and where Oswald was being brought out... and with the help of Croy and Westbrook informed Fritz that Ruby was on his way.

Within 4 minutes Oswald is basically handed to Ruby on a platter with Dean throwing Vaughn under the bus.

This was an earlier version of our thoughts but we since revised adding it was very likely he turned right and went around the corner, then down the alley to the Annex door to avoid being seen at all on Main street.  We reference a number of men who were on Main near the ramp for a variety of reasons...  none said they saw Ruby.

Dean fwiw is actually standing by the armored car, #27, and was not able to see very much of anything from where he was.

Identifying any major or minor flaws would be greatly appreciated...  we understand we do not have direct evidence linking WESTBROOK to notifying Fritz about Ruby's approach yet the obvious absence of much about Westbrook from the rest of the weekend is a bit strange. after his escapades on Friday he just seems to disappear.

The alley I think he took... and we can see the "alley" in the overhead shot leading to the door....  with the 3rd floor windows as a perfect vantage point
all in empty court/interview rooms due to it being Sunday.

Just now, Michael Crane said:

Good news Dave,

I was hoping that you did not get into a conflict with a fellow member & get disgusted and leave.

Carry on.

LOL... oh I definitely did.  Sometimes just need a break from the yahoos.

Too many great people here to stay away for long though

1 hour ago, Joseph Backes said:

David Josephs,

A better copy for the doc image you posted - RIF #104-10528-10125. The one released in 1999 is clearest for reading the text.  

1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:

David, I can't give you a specific source from memory but my recollection is that Phillips went to Mexico City in late 61 as the whole Cuba Project went into something of a limbo in the months following the Bay of Pigs.  Certainly he was there in 62 and officially in 63 he began wearing two hats by late summer, being selected by Fitzgerald for SAS and assigned duties in MC for the new AMWORLD project that began to jell during the fall.  However his performance review for 63 still came out of MC Station, my files on Phillips are in deep storage but as I recall he did receive two disciplinary citations in 62, one a minor security violation and another one related to some strange effort against the Russian embassy involving radioactive materials - no details on that. 

Thanks guys.. I stayed so focused on the 26th thru the 4th I never did dive deep into where DAP was prior.

That he arrives on the 7th and all hell breaks loose on the 8th and beyond...AND his past as a CI operative, just seem obvious his stamp on this whole Mexico thing.  

I notice too that it does not mention HUNT being there, ever.  Kind of hard to believe

5 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

David, the JFK Lancer site has been down for well over a year now due to issues with hosting and maintenance. I think they hope to bring it back live this summer, possibly as early as June, but no specifics on that.

Thanks Larry.. that's too bad - I hope they can resurrect it. 

The following Thanks to Bart's Anatomy of Interrogations...

9 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

On page 5 of those notes, Fritz writes that during the 6:35 PM Interrogation on Saturday night, Oswald complained about wanting a jacket for a lineup.

Since the only lineup on Saturday was at 2:15 PM, it wouldn't make sense for him to be complaining about wanting a jacket at 6:35 PM for a lineup that didn't exist, but would make sense if he was told at 1:10 when he was taken back to jail and told he was being taken down for another lineup at 2:15.

Devil in the details my friend.  and the breadth of knowledge to know when something doesn't fit.  

Maybe just me... the lancer link doesn't want to connect?

This site can’t be reached

www.jfklancer.com took too long to respond.