David Josephs

A little visual context on the paper bag(s)...

142 & 626 are 2 WCE's of the same bag with 364 the "replica".  I had gotten an email from Gary Mack about Montgomery's oral history where he states that a venetian blind is holding up the bag in the photos of Monty taking the bag out of the building...  yet since we know Oswald didn't bring that bag... where does Monty get it?  And in fact it was M JOHNSON who signs the CCCS report turning in this bag. See testimony below contradicting Studebaker about the size and his partner claiming he never touched it.

He also claims the bag was both long/narrow and folded/small within 15 seconds.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Which sack are we talking about now?
Mr. BALL. The paper sack?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. The small one or the larger one?
Mr. BALL. The larger one you mentioned that was in position 2.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You picked it up?
Mr. MONTGOMERY. Wait just a minute no; I didn't pick it up. I believe Mr. Studebaker did. We left it laying right there so they could check it for prints.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was doubled - it was a piece of paper about this long and it was doubled over.
Mr. BALL. How long was it, approximately?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. I don't know - I picked it up and dusted it and they took it down there and sent it to Washington and that's the last I have seen of it, and I don't know.
Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of it before you picked it up?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.
Mr. BALL. Does that sack show in any of the pictures you took?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; it doesn't show in any of the pictures.

Studebaker's drawing - cause y'know with only so much film, couldn't take the same exact photo BEFORE removing this bag... . Notice too the column of boxes that closed in the area is gone.  Many, many of the photos are reconstructions done hours/days later.

Mr. BALL. Now, we have here a picture which we will mark "G."
(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit G," for identification.)
Mr. BALL. This is your No. 26, and that shows the box, does it?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And that was its location with reference to the corner?
Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; that's the exact location.
Mr. BALL. Can you draw in there showing us where the paper sack was found?
(Witness Studebaker drew on instrument as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir. We found this brown paper sack or case. It was made out of heavy wrapping paper. Actually, it looked similar to the paper that those books was wrapped in. It was just a long narrow paper bag.
Mr. BELIN. Where was this found?
Mr. JOHNSON. Right in the corner of the building.
Mr. BELIN. On what floor?
Mr. JOHNSON. Sixth floor.
Mr. BELIN. Which corner?
Mr. JOHNSON. Southeast corner.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know who found it?
Mr. JOHNSON. I know that the first I saw of it, L. D. Montgomery, my partner, picked it up off the floor, and it was folded up, and he unfolded it.
Mr. BELIN. When it was folded up, was it folded once or refolded?
Mr. JOHNSON. It was folded and then refolded. It was a fairly small package.

1 hour ago, Matt Allison said:

Every so often I like to remind folks of some of the fine UAPs/UFOs built right here in the good ole U.S.A.

 

Call 'em alien and you get a Netflix special. 

Call 'em a story to cover for Military Tech usually 30-50 years ahead of civilian tech and you get a rubber room.

Go figure

57 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

As an aside, some researchers go to extraordinary efforts to exonerate LHO entirely even of an unwitting role in the JFKA. There is a blurry picture of someone on some steps, so that must be LHO on the TSBD first floor landing during the JFKA. That is fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and there is value to testing hypotheses.

But then should we also make the same effort to exonerate others who are implicated on the basis of iffy evidence? 

Should we also carefully and scrupulously review evidence against the Secret Service, the FBI and the CIA, and put on our "defense attorney" hat? 

Unfortunately, so much evidence is missing, destroyed, or never existed.

Ben - why do you suppose Oswald didn't just keep repeating "I was on the steps" ?  Kinda would have solved his involvement if that was indeed him.  He could have said a number of things he did not.

The evidence we have available points to the cover-up perpetrated by those you named, plus a few more acronym agencies.  IDK about you but I do carefully and scrupulously review that evidence and correlate it with other evidence to form a picture...  while you are right, what we have left is only a snapshot, it is a very revealing snapshot..

The SS, FBI and CIA along with ONI, Army intel and I&NS were playing together in this charade... whether each knew how their role fit into the whole, or began seeing what was really up as it progressed, is what we try to discover. 44

Why would this man then lie about it unless he was possibly part of the propaganda campaign to remove this event from history?

9 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

For me the Chicago case may be instructive. Two Cuban gunman show up in Chicago, with sniper rifles, and rent a place along the motorcade route. Two guys, that is it. That is their plan: Shoot the president as he passes. Vallee may be unconnected.

Hi Ben,  There was a bit more than that my friend.. and you seem to be dismissing the other 4 locations prior.  Were you able to read "The Chicago Plot?"  I was sure that only 2 got caught, that 2 more got away... Edwin Black:

A few hours after that meeting adjourned, the phone rang in the Chicago office of the Secret Service. Agent Jay Lawrence Stocks was for a few hours the ranking agent, so he took the call. It was the Federal Bureau of Investigation calling from Washington. The FBI man warned Stocks of a serious and dangerous four-man conspiracy to assassinate Kennedy at the Army- Air Force game. The suspects were right during para-military fanatics armed with rifles and telescopic sights. The assassination itself would probably probably be attempted at one of the Northwest Expressway overpasses. This information came from an informant named "Lee".

A break came the next day, Thursday, October 31. A near north rooming house landlady telephoned the Chicago police with a tip. Four men were renting rooms, and in one of them, she observed four rifles with telescopic sights. In as much as she knew the president was coming to Chicago in two days, perhaps there was some threat here. Would the police look into it. The police immediately informed the Secret Service. Acting agent in charge of Maurice G. Martineau scooped up the message and made the connection. This was it.

A 24-hour surveillance was set up on the rooming house. Agent Jay L. Stocks spotted and followed two men fitting in the landlady's description, all the time maintaining radio contact with Martineau. <snip>

The two men were taken into custody (but not actually arrested or booked) in the very early Friday hours and brought to the Secret Service headquarters. There are no records that any weapons were found in their possession or back at the rooming house.

The story goes on to other aspects...  And if you can, Abe Bolden's book is worth a read, as well as the essay by Palamara, "Boring is Interesting".   Another from Boring:  https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10721#relPageId=13       @Steve Thomas you will notice the use of only "Harvey Lee Oswald" with Lee Harvey not being named as an alias.

Reproduced here from a copy I've had a long while.

BORING IS INTERESTING.  3/22/95 by Vincent M. Palamara

Without question, Secret Service agent Floyd M. Boring, the Assistant Special Agent in Charge of the White House Detail during the Kennedy Administration (SAIC Behn's direct assistant),bears a heavy burden in any analysis of JFK's mortal trip to the Lone Star state of  Texas in November of 1963, whether we view the President's murder as the act of a lone nut (Oswald) or as the result of a deadly  conspiracy.  Boring, who was not physically present in Texas with the President (that 'honor' went to a third stringer, ASAIC Roy H. Kellerman), had just recently been with the President in Florida (11/18/63), where JFK visited Tampa, Miami, and Palm Beach.  According to Agent Sam Kinney, SAIC Jerry Behn was finally able to take a vacation coinciding with the time period of JFK's Texas trip, which left ASAIC Boring able to oversee things from his home in Washington, D. C. (you don't always have to be physically present to be in charge of things, such as when the SAIC of the Protective Research Section, Robert Bouck, monitored  the 11/9/63 Joseph Milteer threats made in Miami from the Executive Office Building in Washington).  In other words, Floyd Boring was in charge of PLANNING the Texas trip (based off my two interviews with Mr. Boring, 9/22/93 and 3/4/94, as well as an important reference on page 558 of Jim Bishop's "The Day
Kennedy was Shot", not to mention several conversations with Sam Kinney)!

It was during the President's last trip before the Texas tour, in Tampa, Florida, where Boring took it upon himself to order the agents who were riding in protective positions on the rear of  JFK's limo to dismount and return to the follow-up car (despite 5 April 1964 reports to the contrary1, Sam Kinney, Dave Powers, Rufus Youngblood, Gerald Behn [author of  a report], Robert Bouck, John Norris, Abraham Bolden, Bob Lilly, Maurice Martineau, Marty Underwood, and, surprisingly, FLOYD BORING himself [author of a report and the primary sources for the other 4 reports; Clint Hill named him as the source  during his Warren Commission testimony]2 told me that JFK did not restrict the agents from doing anything!).  By blaming JFK for this action, Boring was able to keep the attention away from himself.  In addition, by his absence
from the Texas trip, Boring was kept out of the swirling controversies involving what should-and should not- have happened in regard to security matters (Behn was interviewed in Executive session of the HSCA , while Roy Kellerman, Chief James Rowley, and Inspector Kelley testified to both the Warren Commission and the HSCA) .WHY did Boring (and the others after him) blame JFK for this order? I was unable to get a definitive answer, but one thing is for certain: if John Ready and Clint Hill had ALREADY been stationed on the rear of the limo in Dallas during the shooting on Elm Street, these men would have been able to protect JFK from, at the very least, the fatal head shot that ultimately killed him(Greer and
Roberts inactions notwithstanding).

So, is that it?  Is that all Boring is responsible for (although quite important, nonetheless)?  Far from it:

1)     Gave Advance Agent Winston Lawson the Dallas assignment on 11/4/633, coinciding with Behn's---or SOMEONE's---call to Sorrels.
2)    Several days later, Lawson phoned Behn's office about the critical Trade Mart decision-Lawson wasn't sure he actually spoke to Behn.4  In light of the fact that Behn was dead set against going to the Trade Mart after seeing pictures of the catwalks, an excellent perch for snipers("We'll NEVER go there", he said5; along with Jerry Bruno and Ken O'Donnell, he wanted the Women's Building, which the Secret Service conceded was the better choice from a security standpoint6), and the fact that Kellerman did not become involved with any planning until four days later (11/8/63),it appears quite likely that Lawson spoke to Boring and received information which was conducive to some kind of approval for this site as a selected spot for JFK's speech (which, in turn, had a direct bearing on the potential route choices , the speed of the limousine, and the security of the building !
3)    Of the 3 known PRS checks of potential threats to the President in Texas, with the particular focus on Dallas, Boring was involved in at least 2, all three of which yielded NO information at all, which Roy Kellerman (to the WC7) and Abe Bolden (to me) both said was very unusual [Lawson inquired into the first check on 11/8/63-Boring told him there wouldn't be any information of any consequence until this date; Kellerman inquired into the second check on 11/10/63-he even said Boring was probably involved with this particular inquiry; Youngblood inquired into the third known check on the morning of 11/22/63 thru an UNNAMED agent8].  What makes this even more unbelievable is the following-
4)    As the agent in charge of Kennedy's trip to Florida, Boring had to have been much aware of the Joseph Milteer threats, as well as the anti-Castro Cuban Community's threats AND the organized crime threat, which, according to Sam Kinney, gave the agents a scare down there9.  A motorcade in Miami was deemed unwise (it was not canceled, it was nipped in the bud), as the Secret Service (including Bouck in Washington and the agents from the Miami field office)  believed via their knowledge of the aforementioned threats.

However, although Advance Agent David Grant came from Florida to assist in motorcade security in Dallas on the evening of 11/18/63 (along with Donald Lawton, Sam Kinney, Emory Roberts, and Bert deFreese later on10), and Boring was in charge of planning the Texas trip, the threat knowledge was NOT relayed to the advance team in Dallas!!!  Perhaps this is why Jerry Behn told me he was asked about the Florida trip in Executive Session of the HSCA-Behn wasn't on this trip either, and none of his testimony was published...
5)    David Grant was a key player in the planning of the motorcade route (which was CHANGED shortly after his arrival on 11/18/6311-prior to this date, only Main Street was mentioned, although, as Sam Kinney and Win Lawson told me, there were ALTERNATIVE routes12 Behn told me the route was indeed changed, yet another matter the HSCA brought up in its 'private' forum13), the "uniquely insecure" removal of  flanking  motorcycles(in direct contrast to the prior Texas motorcades in San Antonio, Houston, and Fort Worth  on 11/21-11/22/63!14), the deletion of  the Dallas police squad car15 (Chief Curry Wanted this car there), the reshuffling of the motorcade order ( with Lawson16), and the placement of the press, Dr. Burkley,  Godfrey  McHugh and Ted Clifton  to the REAR of the motorcade procession(Burkley protested, McHugh told CFTR  radio this was "UNUSUAL", and photographer Tom Dillard said this effectively  and uniquely brought them out of the picture, as the press usually rode on aflatbed truck directly in front of JFK's limo, not to mention the press buses which usually follows the follow-up car...17).  Grant(who was involved in the drinking incident18)  worked hand-in-glove with Boring in Florida, too...
6)    On 11/21/63, Dallas Sheriff Bill Decker agreed to offer Dallas Agent Forrest Sorrels his "full support" to motorcade security for 11/22/63 (as verified in Sorrel's report published in the WC volumes19). Yet, on the morning of 11/22/63, according to Roger Craig (and as verified in several films/photos), Decker had his men standing idle on the corner of Main and Houston as "spectators" and nothing more.20 According to author/ researcher Gary Shaw21 and Dr. Grant Leitma 22 (a Maryland researcher) these unusual standdown orders came TO Decker via a call from a still unknown source in the nation’s capital (recall that Chief Curry stated in his book that the security arrangements were directed from Washington 23)!  If true, it is quite possible that Mr. Boring, stationed in Washington and  in charge of planning the Texas trip, gave these orders...

Boring has a rich background- he was President Truman's temporary Chauffeur (Bill Greer drove Truman, as well) and, on 11/1/50, while Truman was Sleeping in Blair House during the renovation of the White House, two Puerto Rican Nationalists began their assassination attempt with guns ablaze while Boring was TEMPORARILY in charge of the White House Detail for that day (see Baughman's book and 
McCullough's book on Truman) and guarding Blair House (with agents Vincent Mroz and several White House policeman).As it turned out, Boring fired the only official bullets ever fired by a Secret Service agent in their long history of protecting the nation's presidents24-he killed one of them, Grisselia Torreselo, while the other, Oscar Collazo, was wounded but survived (Sam Kinney later guarded him in the hospital; Collazo, who was later inexplicably pardoned by Jimmy Carter, passed away in 199425)!

Interestingly, another agent, Stu Stout, was guarding Truman inside Blair House, fending off the many shouts of angry housekeepers with his Thompson submachine gun, refusing to budge from his assigned position in the chance that the assassins made their way passed Boring (Stout was later commended by Secret Service officials for his action, the housekeepers notwithstanding26). Ironically, on 11/22/63, 
while President Kennedy was the victim of a successful assassination, Stout assumed the very same position-safely away inside a building (the Trade Mart).Kinney and Boring told me that  Stout died not long after 11/22/63, the first agent to die after the assassination (cause unknown...they wouldn't say).I guess it is true that history does repeat itself from time to time...

Boring, whose code name was Deacon (later used by Jimmy Carter!27), served in the Secret Service from FDR's administration until 1967, when he retired as an Inspector during the Johnson administration (although Youngblood's book [ghost-written] states that both Boring and Behn became Inspectors -a highly coveted position of power-after the assassination, Behn told me emphatically that he did NOT become an Inspector, although Floyd Boring did(Behn considered his January 1965 transfer out of the
White House Detail a "demotion", as he went with another former SAIC, Stu Knight [from LBJ's detail],to a division known as "Special Investigations", which was a non-protective function, whose goal was to investigate violations of the Gold Act, among others28).In fact, it is ironic that Boring appears to have been the only agent in a supervisory capacity in JFK's DETAIL to have benefited after the murder(Rowley took much heat, before, during, and after both his Warren Commission and HSCA testimony, and was later replaced as Chief in 1972 during the Watergate crisis by none other than Stu Knight;  Behn retired in 1967 and went to the Post Office Department [his boss was JFK Aide  Bill Hartigan, the same man who would later interview Behn for an extremely tight-lipped JFK Library Oral History in 1976]; Roy Kellerman's power  was usurped at Parkland Hospital by his deputy, Emory Roberts, and he would later become an Assistant Administrator in charge of payroll and the like-a desk job[he retired in 1968])! 

Although ASAIC of  V.P. Detail Rufus Youngblood , who  was to become the SAIC of this particular detail on 11/25/63, advancing ahead of the equally-absent  Stu Knight,  went on to become one of the ASAIC's of LBJ"s  Presidential Detail (due to LBJ's call to Rowley), he was, of course, already an "LBJ man", so to speak (Youngblood  became one of the ASAIC's of the White House Detail immediately after the murder[Behn, Boring, and Kellerman temporarily kept there nominal positions] until January 1965, when Youngblood became THE SAIC of the White House Detail[we already know what happened to Behn and Knight] with Kellerman now HIS deputy along with a new deputy ASAIC, Thomas "Lem" Johns, another Dealey Plaza veteran29).According to Sam Kinney, Emory Roberts became the Appointment Secretary to LBJ, and Sam assisted Emory(Emory died of an alleged heart attack in the late 1960's, the same time an unknown agent took his own life with a handgun, according to Agent Marty Venker30.  Interestingly, Mrs. Juanita Roberts, LBJ's Chief private secretary, MAY have been Emory's wife, due to the circumstances of his later position-I'll try to find out...).  Nevertheless, it was Boring who immediately advanced the highest and the fastest after the tragedy (Knight became the Chief 9 years later, while Agent Clint Hill was SAIC of the White House Detail during the Ford administration, some 10-12 years later).

Boring, now 80 years old and a partial stroke victim, still has an agile mind; it is a crime that he was not interviewed by either the Warren Commission or the HSCA-of the book's he was interviewed in (former Chief Baughman's "Secret Service Chief" and McCullough's "Truman"), there is Nothing but fodder for Truman historians.  The only Kennedy book he is quoted in, Manchester's "The Death of a President"31, is a true enigma-Boring was NOT interviewed for this book(see the book's endnotes; also, Boring confirmed this to me on two occasions)!Alas, the story is not over just yet:  in regard to ANOTHER author we have come across who is known for his errors and ALLEGED interviews, Gerald Posner, during the course of my research, I attempted to find out if what Posner claims at the end of his book was true-that, via Hamilton Brown, the Executive Secretary of the Former Agents of the Secret Service(formerly on Joseph Kennedy's Detail on 11/22/63, first name actually "Percy"), Posner was able to locate and speak with several former agents32. Since none were credited in the text or his endnotes, I began to get suspicious;
this was heightened when Ann Eisele of the Washington Post called me in November 1993 and wanted to get in touch with Brown(along with  some Italian and English journalists, I was contacted a lot that fall in regards to the Secret Service).  I gave her the number after I received confirmation that a) she was who 
she said she was and b) that she would NOT let Brown know I gave her the number (as readers may be aware, Brown told me angrily to "cease and desist from contacting anymore of my associates", and I did not want to incur his wrath again!33).Even under these circumstances, with her impeccable credentials and no causes for alarm, Brown would not communicate with her or give her ANY information on how to
get in touch with former agents (although that was his job, and she was working with Newsweek and CBS for an Oswald-did-it piece for TV and print)!So, I thought-why the hell would Brown help this relative nobody named Gerald Posner out unless... hmmm....unless, just as Posner received exclusive access to Nosenko from the CIA in exchange for a book to their "liking", Brown was somehow assured by Posner
-and Random House- of the same thing.

However, there is one little wrinkle in this story-there was ONE agent who I was able to confirm who WAS contacted by Posner, and it was THIS agent that referred him to Brown for reason or reasons unclear:  Floyd M. Boring34.

Boring is interesting.

3/22/95 by Vincent M. Palamara

1 18H803-809

2 2H136-137

3 4H336

4 4H337

5 " The Lone Star- the Life of John Connally" by James Reston, Jr. (New York: Harper and Row, 1989) p. 258; 11HSCA 516; HSCA Report 12/13/77-interview with Jerry Bruno

6 21H546; 11HSCA516

7 2H107-108; 11HSCA523

8 "The Third Alternative-Survivor's Guilt: the Secret Service and the JFK Murder" by Vince Palamara (self-published,1994) pp. 11,50

9 author's interview with Sam Kinney 4/15/94

10 WR421; 18H789; 17H601; author's interviews with Winston Lawson and Sam Kinney

11 author's interview with Gerald Behn 9/27/92

12 see also 4H326

13 author's interview with Gerald Behn 9/27/92

14 11HSCA527-529; NBC video of Houston motorcade 11/21/63

15 11HSCA530

16 25H786; author's interview with Winston Lawson 9/27/92; "The Third Alternative", pp18,49

17"The Third Alternative", p.49; Tom Dillard on C-SPAN 11/22/93

18 18H684

19 21H547

20 "Two Men in Dallas" video; Hughes film

21 author's phone conversation with Gary Shaw 8/23/93

22 letter to author 12/14/93

23 "JFK Assassination File" by Jesse Curry, p. 9

24author's interviews with Floyd Boring, 9/22/93 and 3/4/94

25 author's interview with Sam Kinney 3/5/94; "Confessions of an Ex-Secret Service Agent" by George Rush (New York: Pocket Books, 1988), p. 133

26 "The Secret Service Story" by Michael Dorman (New York: Dell, 1967), P.69

27 "The Death of a President" by William Manchester (New York: Harper and Row, 1988 Edition), p. xxi; "Air Force One: The Planes and the Presidents-Flight II" video (1991)

28 author's interview with Rufus Youngblood 2/8/94; author's interview withStu Knight 10/22/92

29 author's interviews with Rufus Youngblood, 10/22/92 and 2/8/94

30 "Confessions of an Ex-Secret Service Agent", pp. 216-217

31 "The Death of a President", p. 37; the author contacted Manchester about This dramatic contradiction in August of 1993, but he refused to show me his notes or any other means with which to back up his published claim

32 "Case Closed" by Gerald Posner (New York: Random House, 1993), p. 503

33 author's interview with Hamilton Brown 9/30/92 (former agents' Bob Lilly and Sam Kinney were offended at Brown's conduct, but the Secret Service HAS traditionally advised against ANY interviews other than those channeled through the "official" Public Affairs Department)

34 Boring told me that he did not tell Posner anything other than Brown's phone number, and he was unsure if Posner even followed through with the call (it is very interesting that Mr. Posner picked up on Boring's importance to the assassination).

2 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

The Committee basically covered up the Chicago plot, which was similar in logistics and principals to Dallas three weeks later (see Edwin Black’s 1975 essay).  Connect these dots and we have our perpetrators. 

Gene

Thanks for the great summary backstory Gene...   Brings all the key player groups into the same place for the same reasons.. Rowley, thru Martineau..

..with Rowley's men facilitating Bethesda, after taking the body in Dallas, as well as keeping the FBI out of the loop on the earliest Bethesda charade ala Lipsey's wild ride.  CE399 comes out of Rowley's office per Todd, Zfilm goes to his office per Max P....  and disappears.

On 5/11/2023 at 10:45 AM, Chuck Schwartz said:

Thank you , David, for your very good respose.  I believe (no proof) that Dulles and LeMay settled on the narrative that the cover up would  take the day before  the autopsy occurred  and thus the way the autopsy would have to go to support the aforementioned narrative.  That is why LeMay was there and was making sure the narrative  for the cover up and the autopsy report did not contradict each other.

Thanks Chuck...  your thoughts make sense as one still sees how Dulles had his hands still in so much , even after he was fired.

One gets the impression of controlled chaos...  no doubt some things were "at the moment" decisions.. getting the film to Rowley and onto Hawkeye, then back to NPIC, by default now includes the SS chief, which falls under Sec of Treasury Dillion.  Suffice to say, when Prouty talks heavy weights able to influence Protection, I'd think that must include the SS stand-down as well.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2023/104-10419-10083.pdf

I've seen this now a number of times...  they refer to OSWALD as a Marine Sergeant 

By June 1962 his discharge was changed to dishonorable and he had gone from Pfc to Pvt and back down to Pfc before he left the marines.

Did the press call him a sergeant to make it sound more important...?  I'd have to search a bit though to find the other references...

Thanks for the heads up David.

2 hours ago, David Butler said:

DRAFT:HISTORY: LEE HARVEY OSWALD FIRST CAME TO CIA'S ATTENTION

15 hours ago, Chuck Schwartz said:

David J.,  how did you select Admiral Anderson ("orders came from JCS Adm Anderson ")?

Chief of Naval Operations who sat on the JCS.. Although I would like to amend to add the Adm McDonald took over in Aug 1963.. Yet Rear Adm. Rufus L. Taylor Director Naval Intel (June 1963 – May 1966)... served over both their terms and appears for the docs I've seen to have been involved with the Oswald situation at least a year prior to the assassination.

As Prouty mentions, and I agree, someone with amazing weight was needed to so drastically affect protection in DP, and to orchestrate the cover-up within military facilities (AF1, Andrews, Bethesda)

I cannot say with certainty - so I apologize for giving that impression - and thanks for catching it...  I still don't think it was possible to accomplish without significant advanced planning.. and consensus within the JCS to clear the way.

Control of AF1 & 2 was in the hands of LeMay a 4-star, Burkley and Galloway were 2-star Rear Admirals at the time with Burkley getting his Vice-Admiralship in 1965.  Major General Tom Clifton, another 2-star was pushing for the Wallter Reed autopsy.. Supposedly it was Navy surgeon Kenney who ordered Humes and Boswell.. yet he too was under Galloway.  I'm trying to find if there were any 3-stars as Wehle was also 2-star.

Before LeMay arrives Burkley and Galloway ran the show.. and Dennis David would have to ultimately report to him thru his superiors. David was Cheif of the Day called into Chief Ledbetter's office where SS agents were already there telling them JFK would be coming there for the autopsy...  David tells us his navy corpsmen bring a metal shipping casket in from the back helicopter pad area...  The significant aspect of that is the time... this occurs around 6:30 before and as the "decoy" hearse arrives out front.  MD177:

At about 6:30 P.M., Mr. David said he received a telephone call in which someone said, “Your visitor is on his way; you will need some people to offload.” He then got his own duty sailors together, borrowed some more from the dental school, and assembled them outside the morgue at the loading dock by about 6:40 P.M. Five or six minutes later, at about 6:45, he said a black hearse drove up at the morgue loading dock. He said the driver and the “person riding shotgun” (i.e., front seat passenger) were wearing OR (operating room) smocks. Four or five men in blue suits, whom he assumed were Federal agents, exited the back of the hearse, and supervised and observed while the Navy sailors (approximately 7 or 8 people) working for him offloaded the casket which was in the hearse. He said it was a simple, gray shipping casket such as he frequently saw used later during the Vietnam war. His group of sailors took the casket into the anteroom directly adjacent to the morgue. He then dismissed them and went back upstairs to an administrative office on the second floor of the tower building, “out front” toward the lobby.
When asked to identify names of the sailors in the detail who unloaded the shipping casket, he said the one name he could remember was Donald Rebentisch, with whom he was stationed later in El Toro, and whom he believes was from Detroit.
About 30 minutes later, he said, he saw a motor cavalcade, including a gray Navy ambulance, drive up outside of the front of the Bethesda Tower. He went out on the curved, open second story balcony above the Bethesda Tower lobby and observed Jacqueline Kennedy, Robert McNamara, and several others immediately enter the Bethesda lobby from the motorcade, and go directly up to the 17th floor suite on the elevator (without stopping or pausing for anything). Mr. David said he knew what their destination was by watching the number indicators on the elevator. He was firm in his recollection that the motorcade out front with the gray ambulance arrived well after the gray shipping casket at the rear loading dock.

I posted the below chart earlier and throw it in here again.  McHugh - who was supposed to sit in the middle of the front seat was under LeMay as well.

All this, within this thread is only in reference to my assertion that while RFK Jr. is correct about some of the involvement of the CIA - no doubt - without the full support and activities of key military personnel controlling key sources of the most important aspect of the case, the best evidence, those on the ground have a much more difficult time getting away with it while making Oswald the Patsy.   It's how I've seen it almost from the beginning and is the main reason why the FBI/CIA and many other acronyms fell in line - they may have done much independently, but without assurances of the "cover" by the military, and the stripping of Protection - which didn't happen in Tampa or Chicago - I don't think it happens as it did.

On 5/9/2023 at 12:47 PM, Joseph Backes said:

Who the F is John Leo Keenan? Regardless, folks, don't waste your time with this.  There's too much work to do.  Read the documents. 

58 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

My general point about the military and the autopsy is that we just don't know who was ultimately responsible for the fraudulent autopsy. We don't know if the White House ordered the military to do a false autopsy. We just don't know, and probably will never know in this life. 

Kinda true for the entire enchilada... we just don't know, yet the clues and results are left behind. and when you say "White House" do you mean LBJ.. or Bundy or ??  It's a big house with a lot of rooms 

I do feel though Mike, that this was not some spur of the moment operation to create a false narrative... the difficulties and gaps in the AF1 communications are troubling while also leaving some clues as to a "plan" for Walter Reed.

It is Lipsey of the Military who lets slip about the decoy hearse begging the question as to when that switch occurs when we all see the Casket being loaded onto AF1...  from the records I have read, THAT casket may have already been empty with JFK's body returned on AF2, or in the belly of AF1...  we don't know - but we do have enough clues and casket entries to to know he wasn't in the hearse at the front of Bethesda that night.

1 hour ago, Michael Griffith said:

I think you somehow failed to discern that my reply was intended to support most of your position, not challenge it.

Sorry if the reply's tone was a bit snarky... I was actually curious who you thought it might be with Burkley being a prime candidate and seemingly on both the Kennedy and military sides - as well as the only "Top Brass" at both Parkland and Bethesda. With, as we know, a guilty conscious wanting to get something off his mind later, but never doing so.

If this was indeed the military operation and coup I see it as, and orders came from JCS Adm Anderson who was above all in the Navy, LeMay may have only been there to oversee, as he seemed to be the type to want to be sure it was done "right".  As a representative of the JCS, I don't see Galloway about to challenge him..  In fact, as one reads the events, Galloway appears to not only be playing along, but directing some of the confusion.

==

As to this and its relation to the thread title, pinning all things evil on the deserving of such accusation CIA, does not need explanation.  They hide the documents, they have the spies (I'd venture to say that most of the populace is not aware of the massive amount of intelligence and dark ops work done by the military alphabet soup) and the populace can easily digest "the CIA did it" and rally behind the man without bruising too many brain cells.

Ask anyone under 40 who Ike was and they'll say, "Wasn't he Tina Turner's husband?". 

8 minutes ago, Matthew Koch said:

Lols.. there's a lot of buzz words in this title to activate the NPC's 

Smell that fear in the air?

I was only 18 months old back then...

Oh, the idea of having a Kennedy as president in my lifetime. 
Cue the bulwarks

4 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

 

Gee, how appropriate is the above after hitting the "quote" button.

7 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Thanks for more!

Sure thing Ron...  I'm not going to bet my life on the validity of the man - just that he was compelling enough to those who might have to warrant further investigation.

Marine - it is said and I paraphrase - was not really a post!tute, but would basically do whatever she was asked, willingly, in support of her country

Reggab says he "knew her as Marina Nikolaeva" {sic}

This report https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2022/104-10015-10159.pdf from the CIA says she was a Dental Technician in Minsk.

The date of issue of her "duplicate" birth certificate is JULY 19, 1961... With no Father listed

Just some background - nothing should be implied to impeach her good name.  

. 

I read then reread your post.

I respectfully decline to engage in such nonsense as in the past it has gotten me banned.

By all means, present your arguments and answer your own questions -  Maybe others here with a much greater level of tact and patience will take the time to reply.   

As to "MY" model, the Evica model is from a JFK scholar much more well-versed than I, which I have used to better understand and explain the JFKA.  I am not looking to improve on that model to make it tautological and redundant as you suggest.  https://kenrahn.com/JFK/The_critics/Evica/Perfect_cover.html 

And I'll ask again - moderators, I thought each member was required to provide a biography, or has that gone away now with the influx of new members?

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/facilitator

someone who helps a person or organization do something more easily or find the answer to a problem, by discussing things and suggesting ways of doing things

A facilitator plans, guides and manages a group event to meet its goals

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

David, this one confuses me (easily done sometimes says the wife).  Top left corner Orig(in) John M Whitten.  Date: 9 January 1963.  Below this, right side of page 9 January 1964.  Reggab recognized Marina from a picture in the paper of Oswald's widow.  I.E., after the assassination.  1963, an honest mistake by Whitten or the typist, missed by them, the CIA?  Confusing.

One is a stamp generating the date/time, the other typewritten, so I'd guess the 1963 is incorrect/typo.

HERE IS another report - the original from Berlin to CIA HQ - yet my version is verbatim with the below added and the one I have was sent to:
FBI, Bundy & Mr. Alexis Johnson State Dept from 11/26/63 (fwiw there were 214 hits in a search for "REGGAB" on MFF)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=109325#relPageId=1&search=reggab

7. REGGAB SAYS THAT HE HAS A PHOTOGRAPH AND LETTER FROM MARINA, DATED
JUNE OR JULY 1961, WITH HIS PERSONAL BELONGINGS IN CASABLANCA. IN THE LETTER MARINA SAYS THAT SHE HAS HEARD FROM BOURLAKOVA THAT REGGAB WAS IN MOROCCO ON VACATION. SHE SAYS THAT SHE STILL LOVES REGGAB AND ASKS HIM TO BRING HER A GIFT ,•300, REGGAB SAYS THAT TO FIND THE LETTER AMONG HIS BELONGINGS IN DIFFERENT PLACES IN CASABLANCA WOULD PROBABLY REQUIRE OFFICIAL ASSISTANCE.
8, TO THE BEST OF REGGAB'S KNOWLEDGE AID JUDGEMENT, MARINA WAS GENUINELY
OPPOSED TO THE REGIME AND WAS NOT A MEMBER OF KOMSOMOL, HE SAID THAT HE KNEW THAT MANY OTHER GIRLS. ESPECIALLY KOMSOMOL MEMBERS, HAD MISSIONS TO REPORT OH FOREIGN STUDENTS AND THAT SUCH GIRLS WOULD BE INSTRUCTED TO VOICE ANTI-REGIME SENTIMENTS TO INGRATIATE THEMSELVES, HOWEVER, HE.SAYS THAT HE NEVER NOTED ANY INDICATION
OF THIS IN MARINA'S CASE.
9, REGGAB HAKES A FAVORABLE IMPRESSION AND IS AVAILABLE FOR FURTHER QUESTIONING.

END OF MESSAGE

WE INFO BASED ON XXXX BRLN 4936 (IN 68184)

64-01-06 REGGAB CONNECTION TO MARINA - 104-10020-10006.pdf

4 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said:

There are plenty of deep fakes on Instagram already, notably Elon Musk ones. 
 

Ask yourself why the government would permit such technology? 
 

 

Chris - in this case can you define who you mean by "the government" ? 

Who would be responsible for oversight and regulation of that technology?

edit:  we don't even have rules for the entire internet/www let alone specific things on it

4 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Oops - meant the previous post 11 times NO

All in her testimony - the only thing about that night was she claims the garage light was on, and could not remember leaving it on.  The sum total of evidence that he retrieved the rifle, put it in a bag, unassembled, retrieved it at some point and left in the morning.

If the Paine's were CIA they sure didn't help much when they easily could have, with no cross examination, no one to say otherwise.  Just sayin'

Mrs. PAINE - I was arrested by the fact that the light was on.
Mr. JENNER - The light where?
Mrs. PAINE - In the garage.
Mr. JENNER - The overhead light?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - That headlight is approximately in the center of the ceiling of the garage, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes, I believe it is.
Agent HOWLETT - It may be slightly to the center.
Mr. JENNER - It is roughly to the center and the socket instrument looks like a porcelain socket that extends out from the ceiling and hangs downwardly, as a matter of fact, perpendicular to the floor or the ceiling; is that not right?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - That bulb that's in there now, Mrs. Paine, was that bulb in place on the night in question?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes, I believe so.
Mr. JENNER - And the ceiling fixture is unshaded, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - So, that, the bulb itself is bright and glaring?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - John Joe, would you take a look at that bulb and see what watt it is?
Agent HOWLETT - It is a 100-watt bulb, I just looked at it.
Mr. JENNER - And it is quite bright, is it not?
Agent HOWLETT - Yes, sir; especially with the white reflection off of the white walls.
Mr. JENNER - Oh, yes; this garage is painted white, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - The garage door is a medium shade of grey, and when I say "garage door" I mean the overhead door, which is now in place, the inside facing, which I see from this doorway?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - You noticed that the light was on?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Why was that something that drew your attention?
Mrs. PAINE - I knew that I had not left it on.
Mr. JENNER - Had you had any habit in that respect?
Mrs. PAINE - It's my habit to turn the light off.
Mr. JENNER - And frugality, if not appearance, had dictated you in that direction, had it?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes, more appearance than frugality.
Mr. JENNER - And had Marina come to be aware of your habit? In that direction, that is, of seeing that the light was off when you weren't using the garage?
Mrs. PAINE - I would suppose so.
Mr. JENNER - Is that your best present impression, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - I believe you testified that it was your opinion that at that time that it had not been Marina who had left the light on?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right--it was definitely not Marina at that time.
Mr. JENNER - But it was who--had left the light on?
Mrs. PAINE - That Lee had left the light on.
Mr. JENNER - From that, you concluded that he had what?
Mrs. PAINE - Been in the garage

==

Mr. JENNER - Did he take a shower, to your recollection, in the mornings when he was here?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall his having done so.
Mr. JENNER - Do you have any recollection as to whether he took a shower in any event on the morning of November 22?
Mrs. PAINE - I have no recollection of him at all on the morning of November 22d, except an empty coffee cup.
Mr. JENNER - I take it that, and I should say in the presence of yourself and Mr. Howlett, that the bathroom is located on the north side of the house in between the wall of the northeast bedroom and the back wall of the combination kitchen and dining room area.

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Am I correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - And when a shower is taken and you are in your bedroom where you were as I recall on November 22 in the morning, it makes a noise and it's quite noticeable to you, is it?
Mrs. PAINE - If I'm asleep, there are many things that are not noticeable to me. I do leave my room door open.
Mr. JENNER - Well, apart from whether you were asleep, I just wanted to get that--whether you could hear it.
Mrs. PAINE - I would certainly hear it.
Mr. JENNER - And does it make enough racket or noise so that it might well awaken you if it's turned on?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes; especially that close to morning.
Mr. JENNER - And you were not awakened this morning by any shower?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Do you have a recollection as to whether you noticed, when you performed your own ablutions that morning as to whether the shower had been employed, that is, was the shower curtain moist or wet?
Mrs. PAINE - I made no notice such as that.
Mr. JENNER - Is it likely that had the shower been used you would have noticed it?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I can't say as it is.
Mr. JENNER - You had, I gather, no sense of his presence that morning and his leavetaking that morning at all until you arose and he was then gone?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right.
Mr. JENNER - You heard no moving about on his part prior to your awakening?
Mrs. PAINE - No moving about on his part at all when I looked when I awoke.

18 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

What are you talking about, David?  My post is directly on topic:  RFK jr says the CIA killed JFK.

Trying to be respectful to those who asked.  The thread is about RFK Jr.

The Rufus thread explores the theme of my posting in response to his use of "CIA" and I'd rather we discuss it there.

I will not address my theories about this here anymore.   I already copy pasted your post there...

It's not up for discussion.  thanks in advance for understanding.. talk to you there if you'd like

2 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

I’ve never seen this. It’s real?

 

Paul... it's me...  

Kidding...  yes, it's real.  Marina winds up personally meeting both Webster and Oswald within months of each other.

If you look at her "diplomas" and birth certificate info you'd be in for a surprise.

Then there's this guy named MOHAMMAD we can talk about, if you like.

.63-01-09 REGGAB MEMO DETAILING RELATIONSHIP WITH MARINA docid-32342127.pdf

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Edit:  we need to move this to another thread MIKE...

Roger as well - Post on the Rufus Taylor thread please.

10 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

Your military vs CIA juxtaposition is wanting, David.

btw - I though members had to post bios?

Can these posts be moved Sandy?

On 5/9/2023 at 5:52 PM, Bob Ness said:

OP-921 is the Director of Naval Intelligence or his office. 

@David Josephs I don't know if you've seen these at the Weisberg Collection.

ONI_Enclosures C.pdf (hood.edu)

Thanks so much Bob..   There is also an ONI Enclosures A.pdf

At Baylor in the JA files from copies he took at NARA in the 90's is a 27 page notebook with ONI docs as we..

Some of my docs may be housed in those "enclosures" like this one... been a while and I'm just now getting back to look at them again.

Any help you can afford is always appreciated...  takes a village. 

34 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

This is true, but the military may have been ordered by their civilian superiors to conceal the truth

Who would that be Mike?  Who do you think gave LeMay orders other than JFK... McNamara or Gilpatrick?

34 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

Given Doug Horne's evidence that the Secret Service facilitated the alteration of the skull x-rays and the suppression of autopsy photos, this suggests the military may not have been the driving force behind the medical cover-up

Again Mike - you contend that Greer or Kellerman could tell LeMay and Galloway and Burkley what to say and do?  I'd need a bit more to support that contention before accepting it.

34 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

The CIA did not control the FBI either, and the FBI played a leading role in the cover-up regarding the evidence against Oswald and Oswald's activities.

You are making my argument for me.  Yet I've offered the idea that MEXCIO was created to do just that... keep the FBI and Hoover doing as they were told...  How many of the top FBI brass spent time in the military?

34 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

The CIA was not the agency whose agents literally abducted JFK's body in Dallas, prevented the local medical examiner from performing an autopsy, and whisked the body off to DC. The Secret Service also confiscated news footage of Dr. Perry's observations about the throat wound.

There was so much more going on here than the stuff done by the CIA. 

Again, your making my argument.  The CIA were players in the farce under the control of military intelligence.  Name a few involved who did not spend time under the military at one time or another - up to 1963.  How many were beholden to the CIA?

Edit:  we need to move this to another thread MIKE...  meet me around the corner in the cafe, 2nd booth from the west wall 

"His CIA handlers"

As his handler, and CIA, and following orders... how is this consistent with assisting to establish his guilt by allowing that the BYPs as well as the assassination rifle were from her garage?  Now George D is another story.

We are entering a period of time unlike anything in history - used to be when there was no communication between any geographic areas but word of mouth, stories could be told and believed with no possibility of confirmation...  now we can go confirm it with something like this which fools so many people - ugh, the seal just keeps being broken in so many areas with this stuff.. nothing will be believable... which I guess would be the point of those wanting to control such tech.

(Side question for all you interested in Marina as in Chris' post of a real interview she mentioned talking only Russian with Lee, Marina near by also only spoke Russian...
Marina talked about meeting and talking with Robert Webster at the trade show he attended in Russia - she even mistakenly testified to have met her husband at a trade show -...  what language could they have spoken to with each other, this 17 year old pharmacist and this RAND employee?)

28 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Away from home and speaking only from memory, but one detail can be cleared up. The report of the sighting of Oswald with Ruby testing speakers or electronics equipment is the alleged Ruby and Oswald sighting at the Contract Electronics store, which actually was Craford according to both plausibility and Craford’s direct testimony that it was him. In other words a mistaken identification of Craford. The informant source of it I think was an employee at the store (?-not sure on that detail), who had been an informant in the past. Not an actual Oswald connection to Ruby there. 

william Kelly has done some interesting research on ONI files and Oswald (I don’t have the links this moment). One of the “fire marshals” doing security for the Oswald women at the secluded motel after the assassination when the Secret Service had them before the FBI, was also, unknown to anyone at the time (but is known now), a or the resident ONI agent in Fort Worth. That is, ONI was there covertly at the earliest interrogation of Marina. See William Kelly’s blog posts for that. 

 Always been a big fan of KELLY's work.. a very deep well of knowledge there.

"according to both plausibility" - 

Unlike so many others, I prefer that people here be able to see the sources from which I say things...  even and especially if they prove me wrong.

CE2886...  to be remembered, Crafard did not have a tooth in his head in Nov 1963 - literally.  Could be why this man did not speak much. Could it have been someone else?  Due to the potential of opening a can of worms, I 'll leave it at that.

I can't say definitely it was Oswald and I see the same thing holding true for Crafard.  From what I have learned about the situation over the past 15 years, there are more possibilities than are acknowledged.  I'd urge the moderators to be wary of attacks which may now follow. thanks.