David Josephs

Just now, Leslie Sharp said:

So. Don't these official records insist that DPD was following a semblance of protocol and that some, if not the majority, were completely ignorant they were being played? Those directly involved or at best knowledgable were among a tight cadre being managed by someone outside the department. 

In the research I have been doing over the last 2 years I am finding there are those who managed the DPD aspect of the cover-up were in at least 2 camps... The "Will Fritz always gets his man" camp and a "Military intelligence" camp.

The latter being controlled from outside the department as you say...  letting Ruby in to kill Oswald was a Fritz/Westbrook/Croy thing.  It is Croy who puts the Tippit/Hidell wallet into Westbrook's hands.

On the other hand there was an entire Military Intel contingency within the DPD along with an FBI-backed one.  I'd agree the tramps were somehow directed by this faction and not the Fritz one.

But why so overtly parade them?
Was there any other news coverage of these men?  If not, it would suggest the timing was much later in the day than acknowledged and I believe suggested by the change in the shadows as someone posted.

If they were outside assets (with Lansdale allowed to walk past an officer with a rifle and right next to 3 men supposedly suspected of the assassination) why allow them to be photographed?

Harkness says more tramps were removed from the train(s) than just these 3 - yet again, when?

Who do you see as the force behind the Military faction - The Lt Colonels @Steve Thomas has brought to light?

9 minutes ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

Bard, the AI for google is searching the archive database and is getting the meta data from the entries of the documents that have not been released.

If they haven't been released and are not in that database... how can there be meta data related to it and where in the database would that be so BARD could have found it?  I know quite a bit about databases but not anywhere near that regarding meta tags and how SEARCH finds them.

Thanks

1 minute ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Jones visibly shaken suggests he played no role other than that required under the circumstances. Process of elimination.

If we can believe Chambers.

10 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

David, I meant that the forensics and ballistics seem to have overlapped in this thread, and I would hope we could stay focused on the potential implications of who managed the tramps and that episode, specifically.

Understood... that's why I said No to #2, I didn't see how one would affect the other.

2 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Oy.

So says you...  and once again you are terribly wrong on each count....

I get you WISH there wasn't a conspiracy to cover-up the assassination by your posts and your .2% doubt... but there was... 

Notice the FBI memo was written during the autopsy...  you actually think an FBI SA would admit to more bullets than Hoover allows?   Kinda naive given they lied about not being in the morgue for over an hour since they were told never to let JFK out of their sight.

As for the photos - how pedantic is "the ones we've seen" - you want to play that game have at it...  kinda transparent though.

"Ebersole and Custer both signed off".  PEDANTIC and kinda pathetic.

The HSCA is 1977... 14 years, not 30, 40 or 50 years.  Ebersole most definitely messed with the x-rays and lied about his activities that night... I'm sorry that's lost on you.

Pat - I am at a loss for why you maintain this view that the evidence we have is indicative of the event and the activities which followed...
That you believe the words of the very men involved in the cover-up as gospel when we've proven over and over what a charade the autopsy was.
I'm terribly sorry you feel it necessary to interject this dribble in a discussion about the details of a specific part of this cover-up... the most important aspect of the covering up of evidence was what they did to the medical evidence and you post here as if it were an honest accounting of what happened to our president.

Shame on you.

Dr. BADEN. Do you recall when you took the X rays in the sequence of taking X rays and you took the X rays initially before any incision was made in the body? 
Dr. EBERSOLE. That is right. 
Dr. BADEN. You took the head, chest, abdomen, extremities? 
Dr. EBERSOLE. The order was skull first, then chest, the trunk. 
Dr. BADEN. I see. When Colonel Finck came in these had already been taken? 
Dr. EBERSOLE. Yes, and repeated once. 
Dr. BADEN. Now when you say repeated, were X rays repeated after the autopsy had started? Do you have an independent recollection of that? 
Dr. EBERSOLE. The second group of X rays were taken either before the incision was made or very shortly thereafter. 
 

Dr. BADEN. Why did you take the two X rays of the pelvis that are similar? Were these taken at the same time or one later? 
Dr. EBERSOLE. I believe that represents the second go around. 
Dr. BADEN. One represents the second go around because there does appear to be fecal in the large intestines on both. 
Dr. EBERSOLE. Right. 
Dr. BADEN. The second go around was after the autopsy had been done. 
Dr. EBERSOLE. No, certainly the autopsy was not completed at the time of the second one. It would have possibly been started but all X rays with the exception of fragments were taken fairly early in the evening. 
 

Dr. PETTY. Then as I understand it there was a quandry where was the bullet and somebody suggested taking a second set of X rays. 
Dr. EBERSOLE. Yes. That suggestion came from a non- medical person, a Secret Service agent. 
Dr. PETTY. All right. So a second set of X rays were taken. 
Dr. EBERSOLE. Yes. 
Dr. PETTY. And, Mike, you say there were three of these that were taken later? 
Dr. BADEN. Yes. We have three. I believe eight. I will name them knowing the body partially eviscerated. 
Dr. PETTY. All right. Did anybody suggest to you or ask you to X ray the viscera that was removed between the first set of X rays and the second? 
Dr. EBERSOLE. No, sir. 
Dr. PETTY. All right. 

@Larry Hancock

Thank you...  "former" military though? 

As I read the docs he never left the military...  Isn't that what Newman is looking to prove with Veciana?

On 7/15/2023 at 5:36 PM, Steve Thomas said:

David,

2 sets of tramps, or were they arrested twice?

From Page 1 of this thread:

From Denis Morissette's site:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senat.../Documents.html

William Earl Chambers was interviewed on 3/3/92 by SA Gary Gerszewski of the FBI and Lieutenant Kenneth Lybrand, City of Dallas Police Department.

“their stories as to where they came from and where they were headed differed from individual to individual.

“When questioned regarding the circumstances of their arrest, the three individuals indicated that they were on a freight car sleeping when they were wakened by officers with different colored uniforms than the ones worn by the officers who drove them down to the station.

Question: Sleeping? what time was this? They got out of the Salvation Army and on the way to the freight yards heard that the President had been shot. It couldn’t have been more than an hour lapsed maybe. Different colored uniforms? Driven down to the station?

 

It looks like the Dallas Police emptied out the jail and released anyone connected to the JFK case on the morning of the 26th.

John Elrod, the three tramps, and Daniel Wayne Douglas were all released at 9:00 AM on the morning of November 26th.

The release papers were signed by "Beck". I believe this to be E.R. Beck, a Detective in the Homicide and Robbery Bureau

Steve Thomas

{my bold emphasis}

I'm sorry Steve... there is no record of the men being paraded thru DP other than the photos.  There are no mug shots or fingerprint cards for these 3 arrested tramps?  @Leslie Sharp "Capt Jones assigned to watch 3 hobos dirty"

I don't see how your posts explains 2 arrests on the 22nd of the same tramps.  Sorry

8 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Thanks, David,

In response to your response to Q1: I agree.  To Q2: I disagree.

 

If the Tramps were mere diversion "for some odd reason",  and paraded by Wise and B. knowing they didn't have a squad car to take them, does that not suggest the episode was orchestrated by "someone" and adding weight to who Wise and B reported to directly?

Steve listed a number of other DPD, and I noted that one might well be familiar with FBI SA Bard Odum ... a prime suspect for hands-on maintenance on the ground of all things suspect in early hours of investigation.

I can definitely accept there was something behind that parade...  that it would have any bearing on the ballistics or forensics... I don't see how...  can you help me understand?

63-10-23 CARACAS JMWAVE JOANNIDES IS WALTER NEWBY 104-10170-10002.pdf

3 hours ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

This is going to be hilarious if these documents are real and we find out the CIA asked the DPD to release Doyle, Abrams, and Gedney.

I wrote you on another thread too... these are not real file #'s.

The final series of numbers is always 5 digits and there are no 104-10385-#### docs or
104-10500-#### docs.

btw - The man's name is George Joannides 

30 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Is anyone interested in who might have been responsible for the tramps appearance and arrest in Dealey? Would that inquiry move the investigation along beyond the decades-long debate over ballistics and forensics?

Hi Leslie...  these tramps were never arrested... they were just paraded thru DP for some odd reason...  no one had a squad car to take them? when virtually every other person involved was transported in a car.

Do you think any of those 3 men had a role in the assassination?

note: just like manhole cover bullet guy and Mexico's Mystery Man, can we really say we have actually identified them correctly?

So the answer to your 1st Q is yes...  and No to the 2nd.. at this point

7 minutes ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

• File No. 104-10385-1002: This file contains a report on the arrest of Harold Doyle, Gus Abrams, and John Gedney on November 22, 1963. The report was filed by the Dallas Police Department.
• File No. 104-10400-1003: This file contains a memorandum from the FBI to the Warren Commission on November 23, 1963. The memorandum discusses the arrest of Harold Doyle, Gus Abrams, and John Gedney.
• File No. 104-10500-1002: This file contains a report on the release of Harold Doyle, Gus Abrams, and John Gedney on November 24, 1963. The report was filed by the Dallas Police Department.

Hi Keyvan...

I have all the links to all the released docs in a spreadsheet...  the last part of the file #'s have 5 digits, not 4.

My 104-10400-##### starts at 10000 and runs to 10316
I have no listing for 104-10385-#### with 4 or 5 numbers at the end
I have no listing for 104-10500-#### with 4 or 5 numbers at the end

Can you please provide the links to the pages for these File #'s.  I do have the arrest reports on the 3 men and I posted Chambers' response to seeing them a number of posts ago but on this page I think.

I just downloaded the excel file with the most recent 2023 releases and it too does not have the file #'s you list.

https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/release2023?search=104-10385-1002#
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/release2023?search=104-10400-1003#
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/release2023?search=104-10500-1002#

Am I looking in the wrong place?

On 7/15/2023 at 3:12 PM, Paul Cummings said:

Duplicity in the JFKA? No way.

Replica rifle and replica paper bag...   the FBI acquired over a dozen FC 40" rifles yet not a single one from the 100 rifles supposedly sent to Kleins.  In fact, not a single one of the other 99 rifles has ever been found.  Kinda strange considering they were on ad special for almost a year.

58 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

found a lot of correspondence of his communications with the Generals

Thanks so much for the response and the time Larry.

As COS Saigon who would have been his direct superior? and then his direct superior?

Wouldn't Prouty have been involved in the logistics of supplying "things" to the CIA requested from the Military?

...and why would he be communicating directly with the Generals if he wasn't in some way directly beholden to them?

Am I wrong in saying that many CIA operatives were actually Military ranked personnel like Conein and may have had loyalties outside the CIA the entire time?

56-08-13 Conein to take leave of the CIA and go back to the Military DOC_0005355240.pdf

2 hours ago, Mark Knight said:

So as far as Harvey and Lee go, perhaps there's nothing nefarious involved. Maybe there are just a lot of coincidences such as what I discovered with my own "namesake" in southern Indiana. To this point, I remain unconvinced that the Harvey and Lee case involves a great depth of subterfuge. 

Hi Mark, 

I'd suggest searching this forum for "NYC SCHOOL RECORDS" as the duality here rears its head in the fall of 1952.

The boy's permanent record is a mass of contradictions with the FBI simple counting days and filling blanks.  At the bottom are 3 versions of the same boy's NYC school permanent record, none ofd them being the continuation of the other as Perm Records do.

I fully understand the difficulty in accepting the conclusion... When we start to talk about the physical evidence available in support of this duality, we find a list that is extremely long and extremely detailed.  Not just a "name" thing, or a "photo" thing or even the testimony of Pic.

Children simply do not get smaller during puberty.  I contacted the Bronx Zoo to find the heights of the railing he leans upon to approximate this boy's height.  That boy is not yet 5' tall and weighs no where near his 6th grade weight, 18 months earlier.  He also cannot attend school for more days than there available to even go to school.  The FBI included every weekday thru June, July and August to arrive at their 200 days, when Ozzie did not attend summer school and was out for 3 week at YOUTH HOUSE during that period.

Can you help me understand this with alternative explanations?

On 7/15/2023 at 9:29 AM, Steve Thomas said:

David,

I like the first sentence in the last document you provided:

"By the time Wise and his three prisoners reached Sheriff Decker's office for the second time..."

and I went, "Wait, what?"

They had these bouncing around all over the place.

Steve Thomas
 

 

Steve, take note of MIDDLETON.  

Decided to just post the necessary docs to get a flavor of this duality... 2 sets of tramps. 1 photographed in DP and released by Decker, the other never photographed, potentially bogus arrest reports, and claim to be there up to 6 days.

@Paul Cummings @Joe Bauer

45 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Paul, if you look at the routing slips and copy lists you find that sharing information between the CIA and many other agencies including the services and various military groups was simply routine practice / SOP....that's why they call it the intelligence community and talk abut national intelligence.  Nothing especially mysterious, its the day job. 

As an example the MIG's were tasked with monitoring travel to and from Cuba as well as both pro and anti Castro activities and they reported on that to other agencies and in turn were copied by other agencies.  A 112th officer in NO picked up a leaflet from Oswald's first outing, made a report, it got into a file and the FBI and others were copied.  In turn the FBi returned the favor and an Oswald file resulted at the 112th HQ....which is why on Nov. 22 when an officer heard the name Oswald he could pull a file on it, find the name Hidell (from the FBI) and advise DPD of that.  We have all that correspondence on the record, no mystery.

Nobody apparently reads the intelligence community books I post on - yes they are expensive - to see how things are set up to work - so you can look for exceptions which would be suspect.  Painting with such a broad brush in terms of Army intelligence (with many levels under many commands) or the JCS (with many staffs but no direct command authority) here is really as bad as just talking about the Mafia, which used to the the suspect community of choice.

 

 

Larry - who then would Conein ultimately be responsible to?

6 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

It's debatable what could be meant by "innocent". If RFK was interfering with the autopsy to conceal from the public, which probably would have been in keeping with the wishes of JFK himself, that he had Addisons disease, this could be interpreted by some to be "an innocent explanation for a fraudulent autopsy".

@Benjamin Cole

2 sets of x-rays
Multiple sets of conflicting photos
2 Brain exams for 2 different brains
Multiple bullets removed, 1 mentioned in FBI documents. 

Did Bobby make the ear bullet disappear with the intercostal bullet?

How "innocent" and blissfully naive you are...

8 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

I know it's not your point Chris.  I won't detract further from the discussion.  But I can't watch this clip without thinking this is the point, after the ride down Main street, the crowd noise diminished and Nellie Connally reportedly said "Mr. President, you can't say Dallas doesn't love you now."  Perhaps the last words he ever heard?

I'm not sure where I read this or who might have heard her do so.

Mrs. CONNALLY. In fact the receptions had been. so good every place that I had showed much restraint by not mentioning something about it before.
I could resist no longer. When we got past this area I did turn to the President and said, "Mr. President, you can't say Dallas doesn't love you."
Then I don't know how soon, it seems to me it was very soon, that I heard a noise, and not being an expert rifleman, I was not aware that it was a rifle. It was just a frightening noise, and it came from the right.
I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck.

BTW - in support of Newman's contention (and a core feeling I have as well) that it was the Military and not the CIA which pulled the strings.

Conein was ACSI on loan to the CIA

. Bush on a Zapata Oil rig

9 hours ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

The memo is titled "Briefing of Mr. George Bush of the Central Intelligence Agency." It is dated November 23, 1963, and it is 2 pages long.

@Benjamin Cole @Michael Griffith

Mostly for Ben who enjoys seeing the docs

On 1/18/2005 at 5:00 PM, Steve Thomas said:

One set was taken off a boxcar in the yards behind the TSBD shortly after the assassination. The three tramps we are familiar with were arrested in a gondola type car south of Dealey Plaza.

I was quite surprised to have found this and reading thru the thread I don't think I missed this not being mentioned.  Harkness tells us he took more than just these three men off the train

Last sentence:

@Steve Thomas you mention DEAN is one of the sergeants over WISE... and a sergeant usually gives the orders to the street cops... Dean was the man who ordered the 2 men in the basement parking lot to leave their posts for traffic duty opening an unguarded path for Ruby.

Herbert Sawyer also had a very interest day as one looks closer.

The tramps in the pictures were released while the three men with arrest sheets found decades later where supposedly in the jail over the weekend.

Decker was instrumental in the release of these three men, at least according to this .

3 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

They didn't immediately know that with that kind of stamping..."right on the barrel" that there was no way it was a Mauser?

For 24 hours?!

Beyond strange.

 

Joe,

A Mauser uses a Stripper clip, not the type of clip associated with CE139.  When no clip was present, Seymour Weitzman who had sold rifles and knew them pretty well said it was a Mauser and Boone/Craig backs him up.  If DAY actually said out loud "6.5 cal, Made in Italy" it's hard to understand how the 2 sheriffs sign an affidavit for a 7.65 rifle.

Most are not aware that FBI SA ODUM is the man who takes DAY back to his office, alone, with a rifle.  One would have thought the DPD, that DAY would have photos taken.  

Mr. McCLOY. There was never any doubt in your mind what the rifle was from the minute you saw it?
Mr. DAY. No, sir; It was stamped right on there, 6.5, and when en route to the office with Mr. Odum, the FBI agent who drove me in, he radioed it in, he radioed in what it was to the FBI over the air.

4 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

The shells were found at 1'00 PM. The rifle was found at 1:22 PM.

The shells had already been bagged and tagged and entered into evidence by the time the rifle had been found.

I'll always believe in my hearts, with absolutely  no evidence whatsoever to back it up, that somebody screwed up and planted the wrong knd of shells.

You can't really have a 7.65 rifle with 6.5mm shells.

Steve Thomas

Steve...  yeah, you can have a larger caliber rifle and smaller caliber bullets by using a sabot (see below) which is the size of the rifle's caliber yet is holding the smaller caliber bullet.

Drop the 6.5 hulls by the window and just make sure the rifle in evidence matches that caliber.

Image on left is the rifle DAY is carrying from the TSBD, on the right is the one and only image of the caliber stamp on what they claim to be the rifle in evidence.

An actual 7.35 stamp compared to the 1 photo in evidence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabot_(firearms)

A Knoll shooter as seen in Moorman and described by Sam Holland

Colored on the left, this spot on the photo is neither tree nor fence as shown on the right.

as @Chris Bristow mentions: A gunman crouched a few inches above the fence could simultaneously pull the rifle back and step away and down in under two seconds. At that point he would be completely invisible to everyone.

In Moorman the shooter looks closer to the tree due to the angle at which Moorman was taking her photo. The more to the west one moves the more realistic the distance visually becomes.

FWIW

.