David Josephs

@Steve Thomas

The API came back with that same wrong file # 104-10385-1004 as well as claiming another report is WCD2312 when we only have 1555 of them.

I also looked at CE2312 which by coincidence (ha) is about Ruby having the # of DAVID PAUL.

Fred PAUL is the name associated with Noble and the other 2.  I asked him if he could see if there was a connection

48 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

David,

You're right. You have to be careful what you post on the Internet. It never dies.

Gedney said that Noble was with them in Cell Block A.

Paaul's name does appear does appear again on the 22nd, handling a call made by Leroy Eunis from Cell Block E.

I think these were only outgoing calls, because of the middle column that says Contact Yes/No. I think that means did the prisoner make contact with the person he was trying to reach. If so, does that mean that Oswald made contact with the person he was calling, and is this in reference to the Hurt call, or something else?

It's a shame the times are not indicated.

Steve Thomas

I've gotten with Keyvan who is running an API directly into the archive database to try and see if there is anything more about these other names...

Strange that GRH is on his card but not the man who took him. 

And what's with the crossing out of "Deceased 11-24 to". 

Finally, I am amazed that Matt A can forget all the subterfuge and declare the tramps in the photos are those listed on the arrest reports which Chambers cannot remember.

btw - who was the photographer of the DP tramps anyway.. waiting in DP with all that's going on to be able to take these photos... as well as the one with Lansdale.

Edit:  I see my files say ALLEN and BEERS took the photos

Thanks

3 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

These are the 3 tramps. 

Doyle, Abrams and Gedney.

No mystery.

Then please explain WISE's 1992 interview report about his wandering back and forth between DPD and Sheriff with these three men both released and not released that day.

You truly do not have any substantial way to authentic your conclusions.  From my time here I understood the man at the top to be Harrelson.  The middle is not a match for Sturgis as so many may claim and the bottom is not Hunt...

I definitely appreciate your POV - yet given the duality and subterfuge at virtually ever turn and within every item of evidence... how do you dismiss all that to conclude these are the same men who were both released, and not?

Thanks Matt.

@Steve Thomas

In that same WCD1444 there's this card.   

TRAN TO CO...  County Office?  Not Coroner's Office as he went to Parkland

Is this the Hunt call that was not allowed to go thru?

GRH = Garnet R Hill, Jail Guard. another 1st platoon name

Oswald's name only appears on the 22nd call log and not with GRH but what looks like "Jake Bedding", I could find no names with the double "d" on the 3 platoon's rosters.

And doesn't the rest of Oswald's card notations suggest he made or received other calls.. wondering if these are only outbound or both... didn't think he got any calls, did he?

And as you say, PAUL does not appear again...  you say he's the 4th man yet 3 tramps, 3 men with Paul...  thoughts?

. 

On 8/21/2007 at 3:03 PM, Steve Thomas said:

I can't make out the signature of the jail personnel who signed Noble out, but it doesn't appear to match any of the names on the list of Third Platoon shift personnel.

This thread was referenced related to the tramps - thanks as always for your great posts with links.  16 years past. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1136#relPageId=154

Thinking aloud,  it looks to me like "PAUL" is what the man signed and we have a jail guard "Fred Paul" from 1st platoon.  I'd doubt they'd use first names so to me it makes some sense...  and possibly with "all hands on deck" some officers stayed on past their shifts??

Maybe? 

1 hour ago, Paul Cummings said:

Agree to disagree. I'll take an expert over you any day when it comes to the Three Tramps.

I seem to remember it was proven Hunt lied about where he was that day... 

In one of the panorama images of DP looking South across Elm (with someone who looks alot like Pablo Neruda seen on the grass as well as appearing in a number of photos in DP)

Of course I could be completely wrong here... having looking at many images of Hunt I am more likely to believe this was him than the old Tramp.  Yet as usual, it's all up for discussion and subjectivity

1 hour ago, Joseph Backes said:

A document released long ago showed that the agency opened Oswald’s correspondence from Nov. 11, 1959, to May 1, 1960, and again from July 1, 1961, to May 25, 1962.

1 hour ago, Joseph Backes said:

What is the RIF of the doc Morley is talking about? 

Is it this, 104-10418-10302? 

Thanks Joe... there are literally no letters from little Marge to her beloved son from ANY point in time in the WCR exhibits, only letters from him to her with first one mail stamped Sept 19, 1959 and the next, Aug 3, 1961.

The overwhelming top three addressees: Robert Oswald, Mom, the American Embassy in Moscow...  one would expect the Embassy letters to make their way to the CIA... and a defector - fake or real - would still be of interest...  the CIA just lied about it being the point, yes?

1 minute ago, Benjamin Cole said:

That would have happened to JBC. 

If he did know beforehand, and agreed to sit in front of Kennedy, as a soldier wouldn't you rather have someone shoot the man behind you from the front and reduce the chance of being hit, as opposed to from the rear with you virtually directly in front of him? 

Nobody seems to say it, wouldn't he have been a bit p issed about almost dying whether he knew before OR after.

Supreme loyalty to the cause (or fear) to tow the company line even after that.

1 minute ago, Benjamin Cole said:

My source for the timing of shots is myself, from viewing Z-film

The link is the source for my article on Warren Comm Doc 298 - the FBI's explanation of the assassination so accurate one not need go to Dealey Plaza to comprehend what occurred... (para-phrased)

So yes, the Z-film. 

So when alteration is laid bare, like so many other deceptions, I'm pretty confident we'll see your 2, if not 3, sources of shots, as Dino told us so eloquently and Kellerman put bluntly

"6-8 shots from 3 directions"          "a flurry of shots"

2 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

IMHO, it is the timing of shots that is more conclusive of at least two shooters in Dealey Plaza.

And what is the definitive source of information on the timing of the shots when the WCR comes out?

As opposed to this from January 1964

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10699 

13 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

the strongest evidence that there was no passage.

1. If the bullet continues on a downward trajectory it cannot exit the throat and hits the back of the front seat
2. if the bullet was deflected upward by hitting bone and exits the throat, it cannot hit Connally. on a 25 degree downward trajectory

What people said or not, who was controlling the autopsy, or even what they did simply no longer matters.  They dug their own graves the moment the reports were published.

The Evidence proves the Conspiracy.  "the WC and HSCA confirmed the SBT". 

(image reversed). Specter's pointer is resting on the man's shoulder when the proposed hole is 5+ inches below the collar.  Our man Ryberg shows the bullet descending thru JFK....   the rest is self-evident

Hope you and yours are well..

5 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

I don't believe we are arguing about something that never happened again.

no arguments here Jim.  The Silly Bullet Theory has gone the way of Kellerman's pistol and the AR-15.

As I don't care to bother with whatever their responses were, viewing members can decide for themselves.  The images i posted and unanswerable questions asked make their "arguing" a worthless endeavor 

You've chosen to ignore content by Gerry Down. Options 

For those who may be unaware, ignoring a member relieves you from having to read or deal with any of their posts unless you choose to.

There is no greater happiness available related to certain members...  I'm sure I'm on many of those lists

@Charles Blackmon @Paul Cummings

I'm reminded of what Joe DiMaggio is quoted as saying when asked why he tried so hard on every play...

The reason I play so hard is that somewhere out there is some kid who has never seen me play before, and I don't want to disappoint him.

I do it for the lurkers who don't engage because of people like him.  Who might think just because he posts here he has something to say.

And to those who never saw me play before...  

Pointless, support-less LNer posts have infected the forums since there were forums... sometimes you need the stick instead of the carrot.

2 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

The two investigations into the JFK assassination, the WC and HSCA, both upheld the SBT.

@Leslie Sharp You probably have this yet if not...   I ordered Coup and look forward to getting into it asap.

Interesting how the FBI provided an image which makes the SBT impossible...  The "E" used an image of the wrong car

58 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Interesting. 

Uh, yeah, not so much.

Difficulty in recreating the SBT is that it never happened, the bullet would need to rise by 11 degrees as it goes back to front after being shot from what you claim to be a 6th story building on a heavily downward trajectory.  Humes was specific in that it supposedly did not hit anything hard on the way thru.

JC's wound, after the bullet needs to rise by 11 degrees, as well as move right to left by 10 degrees; now switches to a downward angle of 25 degrees.

A 6.5mm bullet would leave a 1/4 inch hole from front to back as well as greatly disturb the tissues and organs it passes...  none of that happened.

Looking at this WCR evidence and frame 222, @Gerry Down - explain how shooting from this angle and hitting JFK where they showed... the bullet rises to exit the throat and does not exit his chest and hit the back of the front seat?

19 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Thanks DJ-

 

Yes, that mention of George Bush always rates a chuckle. 

Of course, the CIA HQ is named after George Bush, and he was was director fo the agency for a while. 

My totally speculative guess is Bush Sr. was connected to the CIA going way back, to the 1950s. The memo says Mr. George Bush of the CIA, but maybe Bush was merely representing the CIA in a meeting. 

Some say Bush was running CIA-type ops during the Reagan presidency. 

I have no doubt getting GW in as his VP almost sealed his fate.  An ex Intelligence agency Director running a major world power?   

And of course there is Prescott Bush, his dad, which is where I'd bet these relationships began.

Take care

1 minute ago, Chris Bristow said:

The first time I mapped it out I put the shooter between the trees to match the prevailing theory including the footprints and Holland's account. The trees provided fairly good coverage but left a big gap for people on the overpass above Main St, up to the Franzen family.

I placed the shooter behind and right up against the first tree to see what the max coverage would be. I allow for the possibility that a shooter moved from the footprints to behind the tree for the actual shot. The Moorman photo does seem to show a figure between the trees and maybe a figures at the edge of the first tree. The Moorman photo is washed out to the point that much of the first tree is not visible so I am not fully confident of what all we can see there.

The evidence does point to the location between the trees as the more likely shooter location if there was anyone there at all. The Franzen family would need to look away from The motorcade by about 90 degrees to spot the shooter taking aim. Because the crowd would have been looking to the motorcade just prior to and during the head shot I think the more open location between the trees is still feasible.

 A shooter would have had the option to move closer to either tree depending on who might be looking his way and where witnesses were standing. In any case the trees provided more coverage than I had previously considered.

Thanks Chris...  I do need to ask, since we are talking about the knoll area...

The black couple that was said to have been sitting on the bench behind the retaining wall and that threw down the pop bottle... why is it we do not see their heads above the retaining wall?  There's the bench at the lower right... sitting there they both would have been obvious, no?  Or is Sitzman fibbing?

Sitzman: Some ran ... I mean ... I finally got back up to the alcove. There was bunches of people just swarming back there, and I think almost everybody on that hill ran back up that way. And another thing that I remember this day: there was a colored couple. I figure they were between 18 and 21, a boy and a girl, sitting on a bench, just almost, oh, parallel with me, on my right side, close to the fence.
Thompson: In other words, between you and the fence, there's a tree right next to the ...
Sitzman: There's a tree, and there's another part of the marble or concrete, whatever they call it, slab, fence, whatever they call it, between that and the wooden fence.
Thompson: Which direction was the bench facing when you ...
Sitzman: It was facing towards the street.
Thompson: Towards the street. Parallel? Downstreet? Facing forward?
Sitzman: And they were eating their lunch, 'cause they had little lunch sacks, and they were drinking coke. The main reason I remember 'em is, after the last shot I recall hearing and the car went down under the triple underpass there, I heard a crash of glass, and I looked over there, and the kids had thrown down their coke bottles, just threw them down and just started running towards the back and I ... Of course, I don't see anything unusual in that because everybody else was running that way, 'cause when I look over on my left side, the people on the hill were all running back the same way too.

1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:

Bard states where it is obtaining its records and identified a public source - but then says it cannot find them in that public source.  So it knows they exist and is excerpting information from them but then cannot locate them to support its information. It does not say it can locate them but they are classified and cannot be accessed.

Given that the numbers it gives do not correspond to those known to be related to that source suggests its not a matter of release but rather a matter of such documents being real.

Of course someone may have given the AI the ability to tease..?

To be blunt, creating a mystery out of this as if there were some major source of searchable records that the AI can find and nobody else has - including NARA itself -   deserves some confirmation before we jump into one more sensational mystery among those we already face. I'd suggest you contact NARA on Monday and get their opinion.

Otherwise somebody might want to notify the FBI that a huge national security problem has emerged and the AI is compromising who knows what secret and unreleased files...surely someone should be concerned?

Keyvan explains it very well here Larry.  Knowing something is there and not being able to access it is possible yet as we discuss in the linked thread... and you have mentioned, the numbers are not only wrong but there is no 104-10500 series at all, nor a 104-10385 series in the released database.

Furthermore, I can't see how the FBI would have a report on these men so fast unless the rabbit hole is even deeper related to the tramps than we know.  Not a big stretch

I'd be much more concerned if the numbers came back in the correct format and there were still no docs appearing.

DJ

9 minutes ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

What I think is occurring, barb connects to the database directly if it is publicly accessible or by an API that the archive may offer the tech giants like Google and Microsoft.  This way Google can scan the database and cache it on their servers or access it without disturbing website access.

Incredibly interesting Keyvan, thanks.

When either of the giants scans the database and the meta data - are they also converting the document pages into XML for search-ability by word?  And who was it that generated the meta data within the databases to begin with?  I mean wouldn't whoever or whatever did this also need to convert images to words?

Thanks.

edit:  all the files are pdfs.  Does that make extracting the individual words easier? harder?

53 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

I said I wouldn't detract further from the thread about this.  But I went looking last night and found this which is an interesting article.  Since David replied, I'll go ahead and share.

The Witness – Texas Monthly

In support of Chris D.  The Z film is the end result of very sophisticated process to remove, among other things, the "flurry of shots" which arrived at the limo as it was paused on Elm.  And no, I'm not getting into that here or at this time...  both Kellerman, and the Connally's tell us that Hill basically gets to the limo between the 2nd and 3rd shots - or the 3 shots they were allowed to acknowledge.

The black blob as we've called it in this thread, covers the gapping hole at the right rear of his head as it does in numerous frames prior.
(Cue the theatrics) 

Suddenly, “a terrifying noise erupted behind us.” From her spot on a jump seat, she turned back to look at the president just in time to see his hands fly up to his throat. Then, Nellie turned back to meet her husband’s eyes. John Connally had fought in World War II and was a hunter; he knew that sound had come from a gun, but it was too late. A second shot rang out, and Connally uttered what has become one of the most remembered lines of that day. “My God,” he cried, his rich, stentorian drawl taut with fear, “They’re going to kill us all!” Then he collapsed. The second bullet had hit him in the back.

3 minutes ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

I am a developer, what would happen is the unreleased files are digitized, but they are flagged not to show on the website. In the database, you have a table with the complete list of documents that have been digitized with its metadata.  The actual files are stored in storage on their private cloud and the database row has a link to the actual file.   
 

Bard maybe connecting to the publicly accessible database and getting all this information.  The actual file is probably in a secure environment that is not accessible from the outside.

to me, this is either intentional by the archive or there is a serious gap in security.

the other possibility is that Barb is hallucinating, which I doubt but it is possible.

Even though the file numbers are incorrect?  There is not a single document with a 104-10500 prefix.

Are you able to get at this data by using page source views... or any other way?

Thanks for the great answer btw... the breadth of backgrounds here is so impressive... Each adding their own specialities to the mix.  I'm immediately reminded of David Healy... (who is not in the members list anymore? - I hope he's ok)

Cheers

DJ

3 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

David, we also have Col. Sam Kail.  I hope @Robert Montenegro is following this thread because he has identified documents to support the significance of Kail appearing in private records that also name Cols. Crichton and Brandstetter as well as "de Mohrenschildt" and Col. Lawrence Orlov - both known to have "known" Lee Oswald btw.

Yes yes... I am aware of those names along with Whitmeyer.  I do believe @Steve Thomas did an amazing job identifying these men and the Lt Colonels...

I hope Robert is here too. Those are important documents

50 minutes ago, Evan Marshall said:

We discussed this in the past and I've read the book that some folks seem to be in love and remain unconvinced. When I have a source who produced gas and motel/ hotel receipts from Reno, Nevada to Dallas, Texas, just prior to the assassination who was a US special forces sniper a bunch of old Nazi's become too unlikely for me to find real.

@Paul Brancato

I have to second Paul's concerns over important evidence which seems to reside with those who for some reason guard it.

Lifton was famous for not sharing any of his source materials, even with those who opened their collections to him.

Yes, I'm annoyed at reading this Evan.  I guess the community members do not owe anything to anyone else yet one would hope that something like the potential sniper who shot JFK, with authenticated evidence placing that person in DP that day, is something worth open sourcing to this community for examination.

Are you convinced this was the shooter?