Al Carrier
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Posts posted by Al Carrier
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James,
Do you have any info on a Major Lopez operating out of Laos in '63 and communications from DIA to Col. Conein in regards to his (Lopez) whereabouts, sent on November 9 and 25, 1963. The second apparently also questioned the whereabouts of Lopez' Team 5.
This supposed communication was brought to my attention by one I have been able to rely upon in the past, and who sent this info to me a week ago. I have been unable to track a Major Lopez, so it may well be an operational name, if the communications are legit. Also, it could explain Pakse Base Man and also alert as to what happened to team 5.
Speculation at this point, but it falls together rather nicely with history of such ops. If you can provide any insight, it would be appreciated as I have exhausted my current resources as to finding a Major Lopez.
Al
Disregard,
I discovered Lopez.
Al
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James,
Do you have any info on a Major Lopez operating out of Laos in '63 and communications from DIA to Col. Conein in regards to his (Lopez) whereabouts, sent on November 9 and 25, 1963. The second apparently also questioned the whereabouts of Lopez' Team 5.
This supposed communication was brought to my attention by one I have been able to rely upon in the past, and who sent this info to me a week ago. I have been unable to track a Major Lopez, so it may well be an operational name, if the communications are legit. Also, it could explain Pakse Base Man and also alert as to what happened to team 5.
Speculation at this point, but it falls together rather nicely with history of such ops. If you can provide any insight, it would be appreciated as I have exhausted my current resources as to finding a Major Lopez.
Al
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Folks,
I believe that it was in a a Robert Morningstar article that I first read about this.
If memory serves, he claims to have id'd several additional shots in the Z film based on their vapour trails. ( May have been someone other than Morningstar )
I have to admit that I was and I have remained quite skeptical of such claims. That is until I saw a TV program on military snipers the other day wherein an interviewee was describing the feats of Carlos Hathcock, and other renowned wartime snipers and claimed that after missing the first shots at an intended victim because he couldn't see the bullet strikes, a spotter defocused his scope and was then able to track the bullets via their vapour trails, thus allowing him to relay the info to zero in on the target.
My question is to anyone who'd know : - Is it possible to track vapour trails ? And, if so, would it actually be possible to see them on film eg.) the Z film ?
Ian
Ian,
This is an old myth that many of the snipers from SE Asian, Central and South American Operations claimed, but it is merely a myth. Their claims came from the ability to detect the vapour trails due to the dense wet air of the Asian jungles and Central and South Amercian Rain forests. A rough trajectory can be seen with high powered rifle bullets in flight utilizing a heat sensory vision enhancement opticals. But this is only a quick observation and does not narrow the trajectory to the point of redirecting fire. I know some work has been done through the DOD with utilizing certain film to capture bullet trajectory, but am not aware of any success.
Al
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Thanks for your input, Al. The dimensions sure do seem consistent with a bullet entering from the front and exiting the back.
I have these comments:
Didn't the probe of the back wound show a downward trajectory?
If as most of us think LHO was being set up as a patsy, I think a commonly accepted scenario is that the first shots came from the rear (the TSBD or the Dal-Tex Building) and JFK was shot from the front (313) only when it appeared the rear shots had not yet killed him. I think the acoustic evidence also supported this sequence. Why, then, would one of the first shots come from the front? It seems inconsistent with a planned scenario of LHO as the lone gunman.
Tim,
My issues with the probe were that they only entered some 2.5-3". Because the path was stopped, this shows that the probing of the trajectory was not done appropriately, as so much of the autopsy was done poorly. Whether it was body positioning or rigor that stopped the probe of the wound path, it shows it was not done properly. The autopsy physicians believe initially before hearing of the throat wound, that CE399 fell out of the shallow back wound during cardiac message. I would love to hear from them how they could justify such a shallow back wound. What I am getting at, if the probing was so incomplete and poorly done, then we have to take the angle of the of the shallow probe with a grain of salt as well.
As I have stated before, IMO, the purpose of the shots from the TSBD were for nothing more than to draw attention to it and away from the other shooters. I don't believe the persons who set up the assassination planned on using Oswald as a lone nut assassin, but to link one of the shooters to Castro, the USSR and communism. It was the FBI who came charging in and saw what had transpired turned the tables and used Oswald as their lone nut and diverted any attention away from a planned conspiracy to assassinate JFK.
The accustical evidence should also be taken with a grain of salt. There were eight spikes on the recording and only four were accepted as gunshots as the other four did not match the TSBD or North Knoll. If testing comparisons would have been done from other points in the plaza, such as the south end of the overpass or south knoll, IMO we would have seen matches for the other spikes.
Al
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Thanks for that info. While the increasing size of the holes clearly indicates transit of a bullet from front to back, it leaves the question of the rear seat. Is it possible that after tumbling through the jacket, the bullet had lost enough energy that it bounced or richocheted off the leather seat, rather than penetrating it, and wound up in the street?
The question of shot origin must also be answered. Does such a trajectory line up at all with the south overpass? What other origin could there be? I think it's the overpass or nothing.
Two things that make it an impossibility to ever know.
MR. GUNN: One of the things in the -- during the autopsy, they did not link the wound in the back to the neck. That did not come until after they spoke with Dr. Perry, so there was no tracing. There was an attempt to use the probe, and they found that the probe went in a short degree and then they could not find that it connected anywhere.
I can't lay my hands on it at the moment, but one of the doctors testified that an bullet could have entered the body and changed path for several reasons and that it was impossible to now know the path the missile took. We often think about a LOS from Zapruder to JFK, but a view from the RR yard to JFK when he was first shot would be much more on a level field of view. Kennedy's head was turned to his extreme right by Z193 - Z195, but his sitting posture above the back seat was the same as seen in the Croft photo. Any deflection of the bullet could have caused it to leave the body in a way that it would not have hit the trunk or the follow-up car.
Bill, Ron and Tim,
Some excellent exchanges here!
The only problem I have with the bullet changing course drastically within the body cavity, is what caused it to do so. I have looked at this rather closely and the only thing I could see that would have altered the trajectory so much would have been glancing off the thorasic vertebrae. Probing the wound path could have been comprimised (as Stu Wexler had pointed out in the past) by body positioning at the time of the probing.
Al
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Al,
Actually, as wide as that overpass is, wouldn't the officer stationed at the northwest side easily see someone behind the southeast banister even with the slant and no matter what shooting position?
Ron
Ron, the officer positioning at the northwest side would be to focus attention on the opposite side of the overpass and would have had his back to the area of concern here. What should be noted is that the two officers assigned to the overpass should not have been assigned to the DP Side and the Stemmons side of the overpass, but to the ends of the overpass to assure that nobody came onto it. Concerns with overpasses is to keep pedestrians and vehicles off of it. Simply posting an officer at each end would shut it down. This did not happen in Dallas in DP.
Al
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Al,
If the shooter was lying down, I think one of the officers at the north end may have seen his feet sticking out, and this was the origin of the freight train story. (IOW "Whoever you guys are, I didn't see nothing.")
Ron
The photo you posted is restricted to the first section beyond the bend. A prone rifle position is not straight-on and is more in compliance to a rollover prone shooting position where the left leg of the right handed shooter is drawn up to balance the weight shift onto the right side. The body extension of a six foot shooter would be no more than three feet. Given the angle of the break at the south end, I doubt it would be noticed.
Al
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Members
I have perused the web and our ED.FORUM/JFK site has the best visual aids
to help judge the Lunar Photographs authenticity debate,
thanks to our member, Jack White.
The only better source is the exhaustive NASA site itself:
http://www.apolloarchive.com/apollo_gallery.html
Please go through the 16mm and Hasselblad stills with a critical mind.
REVIEW THE APOLLO STILLS, these are worth looking at!
[Jack Didn't Apollo Twelve Have a Different Art Director Than Apollo Eleven ?]
I have started a new thread in POLITICAL CONSPIRACIES regardingfaked moon mission photos. It will be devoted to Apollo 12, since I have
about completed Apollo 11. The other "missions" will follow later.
Please visit the POLITICAL CONSPIRACIES section and view the
evidence, and please post your opinions. I want to know how many among
you are studying the evidence.
Thanks.
Jack
Shanet... I do not understand your "art director" question. Please clarify.
I hope everyone will visit POLITICAL CONSPIRACIES and view the Apollo 12
evidence which I spent many hours collecting and postings. I would
appreciate comments on the images from all.
Jack
Here's an obvious question! What does any of this have to do with the Kennedy Assassination? Got any photos of bigfoot to start a thread on to discredit credibility of assassination research more than it already has been? Or Maybe Alien Abduction?
Al
Al...here are the ties:
JFK in his inaugural speech promised to PUT A MAN ON THE MOON BEFORE
THE END OF THE DECADE. Surely you are aware of that, aren't you?
LBJ, JFK's murderer, promised to carry out JFK's promise. Never mind that it
meant BILLIONS OF DOLLARS for his Texas base in Houston. Never mind that
scientists knew it could not be done. Lyndon ordered them to FAKE IT to gain
"space superiority" over the Russians.
"I'm not a crook" Nixon, another of the assassination plotters, continued the
fraud.
How can you say this is a phony issue WITHOUT LOOKING AT THE EVIDENCE?
How can you say there is no tie to the assassination when the hoax was perpetrated
by the same evildoers "in the name of JFK"?
Are you afraid to confront the truth?
Jack
Jack,
I am not affraid to confront truths as truths are realities and I and most others live and breath in the real world where reality is much more frightening than fiction. I do not watch soap operas as real life is often depressing enough without having to watch the fiction of them.
In reading some of your connections with some select others, I can see why the truth has not been revealed. 90% of the government was involved and they had no trouble keeping it from the remaining 10%, let alone the General Public.
While we have to be suspicious of official actions within the government, all is not a conspiracy that links to every other possible conspiracy. It is a small world and if one studies irrelevant issues long enough, they can conjure up connections and make a rather interesting soap opera. The key is to use critical thinking and realize what is possible in the real world.
Al
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Al,
If you go to this link, there is an excellent photo of your south knoll shooter position, where the banister slants eastward:
http://history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/T...ctoryOfaLie.htm
Do you think a shooter would fire over the railing, or lie down and shoot through one of the openings?
Ron
Ron,
Both offers a stabilizer with a concrete base at the top and bottom. IMO, the lower would be more ideal as the shooter would be better hidden and prone would be more stabilized as the top would put the shooter in a crouch. I have been up there and noted the heights of this.
Al
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From “Trajectory of a Lie” by Milicent Cranor:
“The back wound could have been the exit of a bullet that entered the body through the throat. Many researchers doubt this because no hole was reported in the trunk of the limousine; they believe such a trajectory would require the bullet to also penetrate the trunk. This is not necessarily so: if the bullet had exited with very little energy – perhaps after traveling from afar – it would not have penetrated the trunk.”
http://history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/T...ctoryOfaLie.htm
If a bullet entered JFK’s throat and exited his back (between neck and right shoulder blade), would this be consistent with a shot trajectory from atop the south end of the triple overpass? If not, where could such a shot have come from?
Ron
Ron,
The issue here is sustained velocity from unobstructed travel and soft tissue penetration and adding the clothing on exit. Let's take the 6.5mm MC round for giggles. At 100yds of travel, the velocity goes from 2000fps to 1855fps. Soft tissue penetration would comprimise it no more than an additional 10% which would leave it in the range of 1670-1680fps. Exit penetration through the shirt and more importantly the weave of the jacket would take off another 15-20% giving us a minimun of 1350fps. With a 160gr FMJ bullet, more than enough velocity to penetrate metal on direct impact or at least skip off leaving significant indentation on less than 45degree impact. Another consideration beyond the trunk of the limo would be the damage to the front of the USSS follow-up car that I am unaware of any documentation that it was examined and the findings reported.
Al
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Al,
Thank you for your assessment. Seems like you have given it a lot of thought and appropriately used witness testimony and what little other evidence there is to make your conclusions.
It seems like you would agree with what was presented on this issue in the movie JFK. Military style ambush, triangulation cross fire, hunting rifles, professional hit men or serious hunters. Of course in the film they elaborated and discussed 3 separate sniper teams with radio communication etc. nevertheless a well presented theory (if not fact).
Antti, it is theory by connecting such an operation to the Kennedy assassination, as we cannot make the connections to prove this with what is left. I came to these conclusions by looking at the physical evidence, the witnesses observation and what has been practiced by our government in SE Asia, the middle-east, Africa, Central and South America.
A "military style ambush" of this nature is conducted by military snipers who have been trained for such operations. The operational order is handed down to a field agent or commander who then chooses the snipers for the operation and gives them their orders, travel papers, etc.. The same second level person or a subordinate then arranges on site, what is needed by the team to accomplish their mission, provides the target's position at various times and turns it over to the teams to accomplish their objective. The team will spend a matter of a few days at most determining the ambush site and will not coordinate it with anyone. Once the objective has been met, the team will depart the area and either meet and leave in unison or by seperate pre-planned modes. Nobody but one or two knew they were there and in the case of DP, I seriously doubt they were ever heard from again.
Al
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Members
I have perused the web and our ED.FORUM/JFK site has the best visual aids
to help judge the Lunar Photographs authenticity debate,
thanks to our member, Jack White.
The only better source is the exhaustive NASA site itself:
http://www.apolloarchive.com/apollo_gallery.html
Please go through the 16mm and Hasselblad stills with a critical mind.
REVIEW THE APOLLO STILLS, these are worth looking at!
[Jack Didn't Apollo Twelve Have a Different Art Director Than Apollo Eleven ?]
I have started a new thread in POLITICAL CONSPIRACIES regardingfaked moon mission photos. It will be devoted to Apollo 12, since I have
about completed Apollo 11. The other "missions" will follow later.
Please visit the POLITICAL CONSPIRACIES section and view the
evidence, and please post your opinions. I want to know how many among
you are studying the evidence.
Thanks.
Jack
Shanet... I do not understand your "art director" question. Please clarify.
I hope everyone will visit POLITICAL CONSPIRACIES and view the Apollo 12
evidence which I spent many hours collecting and postings. I would
appreciate comments on the images from all.
Jack
Here's an obvious question! What does any of this have to do with the Kennedy Assassination? Got any photos of bigfoot to start a thread on to discredit credibility of assassination research more than it already has been? Or Maybe Alien Abduction?
Al
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Anyhow, Oswald, that two-bit creep, is given credit, if that's the word, for brains, power, and strategy worthy of Boris Spassky, when, in fact, he was a nothing. Look at his grin in the Dallas jail. It speaks volumes.
Since you call LHO a "two-bit creep" I think you must believe he played a role in the assassination. As posted in another thread, I think LHO was more intelligent than he was sometimes given credit for (this assessment of his intelligence is true whether or not he was involved in the assassination). Do not read too much into one smirk.
I am not sure myself if LHO had some participatory role in the assassination or was merely a "patsy". If he indeed played a role, it is unfortunate that those who strongly argue he was innocent are exonerating a man who played a role in such a heinous crime.
On the other hand, of course, if he was indeed an innocent patsy, how sad that he was himself murdered and how tragic that the current history books link his name to "the crime of the (20th) century".
Nobody will understand LHO as long as they insist he was a single individual.
Both Lee and Harvey were agents. Harvey had assumed Lee's identity and
became the "patsy", and was killed by Ruby. Lee is likely alive today, living
in Florida under a fictitious name in a witness protection program.
Jack
Jack:
AS I said in another thread I can't wait to read the Armstrong book. (Please don't tell me Lee is in the Keys! Tampa, or St. Pete, would be better!)
Tim,
I read Armstrong's book and am thankful I checked it out at the Library instead of paying for it. I have enough fiction on my shelves on the JFK Assassination.
Jack,
Since you have posted on the neccessity to believe in the Lee and Harvey issue in order to be realistic about LHO, then may I suggest that you start a thread on how this all worked into the assassination scenario and how Harvey walked away from it all?
Al
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I was reading a game-hunting related web page a few days ago, specifically because it had a section talking about 6.5mm ammunition.
It mentioned several flavors of 6.5mm (Mannlicher was one, Carcano was listed separately, and one or two others). The interesting comment that I noted from this site was that the 6.5mm never really caught on as a hunting round in the USA. It did mention that some big game hunters preferred it, even for elephant hunting, because of the bullet's ability to penetrate deep into a target. The rationale for this was credited to excellent sectional density of the bullet.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/6-5mm_rifle_cartridges.htm
I notice, however, that they weren't talking about WCC or SMI military-issue rounds in this article.
I also found it interesting that they commented on the relatively low recoil of the 6.5 round.
As a confirmed skeptic, though, I'd like to hear what other folks have to say about the feasibility of a 6.5mm FMJ round creating the Z312/313 headwound.
Regards,
Frank
Frank,
Ballisically speaking, the 6.5mm WCC 160grn FMJ MC bullet could have created the skull wound to JFK. It had a muzzle velocity of 2000fps and was an elongated round that would have yawed on impact and released sufficient energy dispersion into the enclosed cavity to create such a wound. The first problem is that is was far from being an ideal round of the period for accuracy and reliability. Considering it was going to be relied upon to eliminate a president in a moving vehicle, I believe it would not have been one to come up in conversation for planning.
Secondly, the way it is represented in the official findings, we are dealing with a short stock rifle that requires the shooter to come off the cheek weld in order to work the action to chamber the next round. In the tests that have been done with it, they have either fired on stationary preset location targets or movers on level ground and constant speed, which allows for more rapid reaquisition of the target than does the varying speed, varying angle and elevation that the motorcade represented. Add a misaligned scope and we have a comical equation of a possible sniper rifle situation. No need to mention the lack of evidence of Oswald having live-fire experience with the rifle or even any evidence that he fired it. Or that he had any experience with a scoped rifle.
In dealing with consistency with the wound and the shot origin of the TSBD, the test skulls that I posted on are far from consistent with what occurred with JFK. The Lattimer skull was hollow and had significant dispersion of the parietal on the left side of the skull and also into the frontal. This hollow skull cavity is useless as it does not address the issue of dispersion of energy within the cavity that we would see with a filled cavity. The Feds skull testing did utilized a filled cavity and resulted in obliteration of the right side of the skull from the occipital to the rear, through the parietal and into the frontal with removal of the right orbital. All inconsistent with the JFK Skull.
Yes, the 6.5mm MC 160gr WCC of 1958 had a very minimal recoil. Besides that, I cannot fathom any other reason one would choose it.
Al
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I appreciate the imput from everyone. I agree with Pam the most. Actually I agree in part with everyone's posts.
I was very tired when I posted last nite, so made typos, did not express myself well. By agenda what I meant was not someone trying to sell a theory, but something far more sinister.
I have been in this world-(" critical community")- too long not to believe that there are many paid disinformation artists out there whose sole purpose is to destroy our attempts, be it on a forum, where it's so easy to hide and pretend to care about who killed jfk, but in fact are causing dissent and keeping people bogged down in this really fake dissent, THIS being this person's true goal.
That was the agenda to which I was referring.
Real dissent, over real issues in this case is constructive, and contribute greatly to the puzzle.
I disagree about Wim. I do not know him personally, but I do believe he is sincere. I believe he is completely interested in solving this case, in fact I know it.
I do hope he gets rid of BV on his forum. I think Wim, like you John, was trying to allow all views and in that regard Vernon stepped in and took over.
In the spirit of what you (John) called "divergent thinkers".
Al, I do appreciate your words because I did not think it was fair that when you and Tim were debating only Tim got barred from the forum, then Wim when he came to Tim's defense.
Dawn
Dawn, this issue is getting very tiresome. Apparently you have issues with everything being fair and perfect and still cannot appreciate the totality of the circumstances. Well, life is not always fair and I refuse to continue to apologize for being attacked by people who don't like what I post, and instead of researching it or finding qualified persons to challenge it, attack me personally.
Poor Tim who was removed from here and Lancer not only went after John but also sent e-mails to my chief, an Administration Division Commander and the Chief's secretary (apparently he could not find an e-mail address for the janitor) accusing me of threatening him and misconduct as a police officer. Now I had to spend an hour explaining what was going on. And it is still not over. He took what I said out of context and also misinterpreted what I wrote. My reference to "bringing a feather duster to a gunfight" was interpreted by Tim to my superiors as a threat to shoot him apparently. When in context it referred to debating issues that he did not have the understanding or background to debate. When I posted that I would run into him at a conference someday and we could address this man to man was perceived by him in reporting to my superiors as a threat to harm him. Instead of what it actually meant in context, that it should be addressed between the two of us and not wasting space on open forum. If I planned on harming Tim at a conference, I surely would not have stated so on open forum.
When I challenged Files issues with ballistic knowlege, Wim who does not have any background with weaponry and ballistics, searched the internet until he found right wing radicals talk groups and found some extremist to challenge me who obviously knew less about ballistics than the average Joe. When this was pointed out, he misrepresented what I posted to John and he sided with the opposing views against me. We now are in agreement with most ballistic issues. (the issues with Wim came on the Lancer forum).
I am done dealing with this crap and will continue to post here as long as Mr. Simkin allows me to do so. I have done nothing wrong, other than bringing myself down to their levels.
Al
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Dawn,
I know that I am part of your frustration in regards to the infighting on the forum, and would very much like to give you more insight on what has transpired since these squabbles but it is best that I leave it alone.
It may not mean much coming from me, but there is still constant advancement through forums such as this and most recently in the thread of "Did the Big Fish Know" that shows that we can work together and make progress. In this thread, issues were brought out from documents and testimony that we all have access to and many of us have read, but in this case it took a series of interpretations that made connections and brought a great deal to light. That is what this is all about. Persons from various walks of life and abilities to see issues and evidence from different perspectives that will forward this investigation.
Al
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Robert, we've also turned up a document which states that Oswald applied for a job at the Devilbiss Company in the general area of the Trade Mart after he was employed at the TSBD. There is no specific date on hisjob application but Dallas Eyewitness news investigated and were told that Oswald had been there about two weeks before the assassination. I'd say someone was covering all the bases. The application was picked up by the FBI but not specifically mentioned in its report on Oswald's job searches. (Larry Hancock)
I think there are very important points being raised in this thread. If LHO was brought to the motorcade route rather than vice versa, does that not necessarily implicate in the conspiracy the persons who got LHO the job in the TSBD? (Tim Gratz)
IMO, this is one of the most powerful threads that has been presented in some time in trying to track down who staged the assassination. I do believe that too much is given to the route as part of the conspiracy as we must remember the purpose of the Texas trip was exposure to the citizens of Texas with JFK, LBJ, JBC and RY all present in the motorcade. The trip through downtown was neccessary and DP was a neccessity for this route. Positioning Oswald was a key point for a fall guy, but if issues came up and their would have been an alternative route, I am sure their would have been another patsy and team placement ready to go for that. Larry and others have pointed out other places of employment for LHO to cover other venues of operation, which is an excellent and evidentiary point. As Dallas became the third of such planned operations, I believe they had other venues of assault prepared as a fall back. This does not however take away the importance of the link as to who was knowlegable of the events that transpired leading up to this and the documents listed in this thread that supports it.
I believe we are now actually getting somewhere as to the planners...
No surprise who is adding to this thread!
Al
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If you would like, I could add to this by detailing the reasons for the multiple positions for such a shot scenario which is consistent with what we have found in this investigation and what is trained to military snipers. It also deals with witness recall and the layout of the plaza.
Al[/color]
I suspect we would all like! Thanks!
First of all, Dealey Plaza has somewhat of an Amphitheatre effect as it has tall buildings to the rear, sloping grounds to each side and the triple underpass in the foreground. Where the sloping and curving roadway makes this a less than perfect ambush site, the terrain allows for multiple shooters and the ability to cover the origins of shooters who are in less than ideal positions that would allow their escape.
The military teaches their snipers a technique in setting up such an ambush that is referred to as a “canyon shoot”. In rural and even more so in urban situations, the shoot origin with the most ideal position is generally in an exposed placement. In order to eleviate the problem of allowing this ideal positioned shooter an unhampered escape, other snipers are brought in, in more ideal positions for escape and they will utilized their shot detonations to cover the origin of the exposed sniper.
In the sequence of events in DP, some 83% of the witnesses heard one shot origin for the three or more shots they heard fired on the Presidential motorcade. These 83% of the wits detected an original shot origin detonation and their critical stress recall placed all shots from that same position. Of the 17% that reported multiple shot origin positions, they would have been in close proximity to the limo or totally away from the plaza. Those in close proximity would have detected the bullet bow shockwave of the bullet in flight passing by them enroute to the target. Of those outside the theatre of operation, their stress level would have been lessened and they would have been able to rationalize other shot origins.
IMHO, the shot from the rear that so many of the wits and protective parties reported on, was the originating shot they cued the other shooters to fire and covered their origins. Audio Stimulus is the quickest reaction stimulus of the senses. While many report on radio traffic from each shot origin to the other and possibly from on the ground in DP, this would create a delay in follow-up shots to the originating shot and would not work in this situation. Often times radio traffic is not an option and in this case, it may have been the staging confirmation that all point of shot origin had a clear and unobstructed view of the target within the targets traveled path in the plaza. Once the shooting started, the radios would no longer be a factor in this.
I believe in three shot origins, possibly more. One being the one that starts the sequence and it originated from the rear on the 6th floor of the TSBD. This was not an ideal location for target elimination as it involved a sixty foot elevation that would create a gravitational pull factor and the terrain of the roadway would create additional problems. The second being on the north knoll. Although this was the closest in proximity to the target, it dealt with issues of a crossing target with variable speeds at close range. This would create a tracking problem. The third would be from the front to the south that would have the target closing in a more direct fashion at the time of the kill shot. The latter being the most ideal for panning on a moving target.
Al
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Hi Al:
Thanks for the comments. Your suggestion that the UM was placed there to distract the USSS agents is a viable one, albeit not flashy enough to have actually caught their attention, from what I can tell.
As for these two men placing themselves in harm's way in DP, one must assume that ALL parties to the event were doing precisely that, for there could have been no guarantees that any of them would leave Dealey Plaza alive.
Regarding Greer and his curious driving display that day, there are two distinct avenues of speculation.
The first is the Cooper/Linton school of thought - filched wholesale from Newcomb's and Adams' unpublished "Murder From Within" - that Greer actually shot the President. I dismiss that on its face as ludicrous, as any clear copy of the Z-film makes plain. How could the driver have killed his key passenger without anyone in [or outside] the car noticing?
The second theory is that Greer deliberately slowed to a crawl in order for the assassins' bullets to more easily and accurately find their mark, a perfectly reasonable piece of speculation [particularly given the appalling response time of most SS agents on the scene.]
However, as I usually find a mundane explanation more compelling than a fanciful one, I would suggest a perfectly natural reason for Greer to slow the vehicle to a stop, without him being a conspirator.
Were the shots coming from behind the car - per the official version - Greer would undoubtedly have pumped the gas and sped off. However, had the shots been fired from in front of the car - per the windshield bullet hole - his perfectly natural, instinctive response would have been to brake the car, rather than continue INTO the line of fire.
We seem to agree on Greer, at least.
In any case, re: the UM and DCM, if we dismiss their roles as signalmen, we are back at Square One, attempting to rationalize their highly anomalous behaviour, and their apparent collaboration, during the ultimate treasonous crime. Odd behaviour at the crime scene marks them as worthy of our scrutiny. Irrespective of whether one accepts they were signalmen on that day, Louis Witt's rationale to the HSCA is nonsensical in the extreme. If they did NOT play a role in the day's events, precisely how does one explain their behaviour? Umbrella-pumping as a symbolic allusion to Joe Kennedy? Utter rubbish.
Hello John, Great to have you posting here as I appreciate your approach and knowlege of the assassination.
I obviously do not believe Greer was involved as it could have been a suicidal mission on his part, and he could have actually brought the limo to a halt and used the excuse that he was contemplating his next move to get free of the gunfire as an excuse, which he did not do. Another explanation beyond what you pointed out as his reluctance to drive into the gunfire as the shot burst through the windshield (and I have respect for that theory), is that when he looked over his shoulder to check the commotion to the rear, he may have simply subconsciously applied the brakes in order to control the vehicle. In previous slow moving motorcades where motorcycles outriders were utilized, they formed a "flying wedge" pattern to the front of the limo (as I have attached). Greer could have subconsciously applied the brakes due to the normal close proximity of the motorcycles on previous motorcades, that were not present here. In order to understand Greer's actions, we must put ourself in his place at the time, instead of critiqing his performance with what we know or assume now.
As far as UM and DCM goes, I feel we can read too much into their actions. I have taken part in numerous security details involving Presidents, VP and candidates for the office and in this election year particularly, have been the local LE liaison to the USSS for motorcade planning and duties. It never ceases to imaze me the strange individuals these visits bring out and the strange behavior they show when the motorcade passes. Some of the actions and signs I have seen were laughable now, but concerning at the time, and they were harmless after all.
Amen! And some people even assert that Connally was in on it! I find it difficult to believe that LBJ would expose his close friend Connally to the gunfire, although I do admit that John has offered convincing evidence that LBJ had a strong motive to need to become president in the fall of 1963.
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Hi Tim:
Please bear in mind that original plans called for Senator Yarborough to share the limo with the equally "liberal" President, while the "conservative" Vice President and his friend the Texas Governor were to ride together in the followup car. There was quite a stink raised about these seating arrangements before Kennedy himself, apparently, settled the issue by insisting on the final seating configuration we see on film.
At this juncture, what could be said? Assuming Connally were a conspirator, would he volunteer to Kennedy that he refused to ride in the President's limo? What possible reason could he give for such a refusal? [FWIW... I believe Connally was out of the loop - he had argued AGAINST the Texas visit from the outset - though others will disagree.]
In the event that Connally knew nothing in advance about the assassination, but Johnson did, would Johnson have argued more strenuously in order to save a friend? Doubtful. To accept this, one must ignore all we have learned about the Vice President's pathalogical disregard for anything that stood between him and his aims. If the accidental/collateral-damage murder of Connally assured Johnson's ascension to the Oval Office, I suspect the Vice President would not have thought twice.
I couldn't agree more...
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It would be nice to hear more of your conclusions or ideas of what weapons were used to assassinate JFK 41 years ago, and how you came to these conclusions.
Antti,
I believe the shooters in DP were using shoulder mounted weapons (for ease of panning and accuracy) firing a heavy (130gr plus) rifle caliber velocity (1800fps plus) bullet at the limo from three points of origin. The reason I believe in the heavier bullet is the greater chance of success with fatal wound achievement in a higher velocity, and a minimal effect of windage factor with the swirling winds in DP. I believe it had to be of rifle caliber velocity to achieve the desired wound effectiveness and minimize time in flight of the projectile when firing on a moving target. This does not narrow it down a great deal and I can only add, IMO that the rifles used were bolt action for greater accuracy.
Why I believe there were three points of origin for the shots fired is due to the witness reports, what was found in the TSBD and the Badgeman photo. The above covers two of the three points of shot origin and I firmly believe from a tactical sniper standpoint and what we see of the headwound being restricted to the right side, that there was a third position in the front to the left of the President that produced the fatal wound.
If you would like, I could add to this by detailing the reasons for the multiple positions for such a shot scenario which is consistent with what we have found in this investigation and what is trained to military snipers. It also deals with witness recall and the layout of the plaza.
Al
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I have deleted this post.
Al
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Al, thanks. I get the point. The picture makes it very clear what a rifle shot to the head can do. As a matter of fact, in my opinion, the damage to the person in the photo you sent is probably 4-5 times more severe than the damage to JFK 41 years ago.
I am not familiar with the Lattimer tests. It would be nice to hear more of your conclusions or ideas of what weapons were used to assassinate JFK 41 years ago, and how you came to these conclusions.
Antti, I will attach the Lattimer skull test photo and the two angle view of the FBI skull test photo here. Both were accepted as being consistent with the JFK headwound even though both showed extensive damage to the frontal lobe, that JFK did not.
Al
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As there could be no certainty that radio communications would work on the day [witness the DPD technical difficulties], a visual signal was a good fallback in case the radios failed. Planning for all contingencies required this as a Plan B, just in case.
Great observation! When I read this, I thought immediately about what the British naturalist Thomas Huxley said in 1859 when he finished reading Darwin's theory of natural selection in On the Origin of Species: "How stupid that I didn't think of that!"
I think you've explained exactly why those two guys were conspicuously waving and pumping an umbrella as if radios didn't exist.
Welcome and thank you for joining the forum.
Ron
Some excellent points here. I have also exchanged views over the years that the reason for the umbrella pumping and waving was to distract the Secret Service Agents. This is a logical possibility as the USSS primary focus on a moving motorcade are the threats within close proximity to the protective party.
One concern with the pumping of the umbrella and waving as a fallback as a signal if the radios failed is the timeline issue. Due to the short timespan of the limo on main, a triangulation of shooters would rely on visuals and shoot off the startle reaction of the others shots being fired in the sequence and would not allow for the luxery of radio communications, once the sequence began. This reverts back to action v. reaction v. response delays.
My major concern with the UM and DCM being part of the assassination team is their close proximity to the target which is in a moving vehicle made of metal and steel and with shots being fired from various angles of shot origin. A bit to close for comfort in my opinion with issues of riccochet and shot displacement. I put this into the same catagory of doubt that some feel that Greer and Kellerman were in on it.
Al
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I believe everyone who is responding here to me being unfare to Oswald's intelligence level is misunderstanding what I mean by this. Allow me to clarify. There are many who have high IQ's and are considered "booksmart" but cannot apply what they have learned.
Oswald's actions in the American Embassy in Moscow was described as "rehearsed". On the N.O. radio broadcast, he stated that he was under the protection of the US gov't while in the Soviet Union and then quickly corrected himself. In N.O., he ran his so-called N.O. branch of the FPCC out of an office in the same building as Guy Bannister's detective agency and was seen frequently in Bannister's office, while Bannister was openly anti-Castro.
If it was Oswald in Mexico City, he seemed panicked on the transcribed recordings when they would not allow him an exit visa.
We could go on and on. I just cannot accept that he was a seasoned or reliable operative. He may have been well-versed in his assignments, but he was by no way seasoned and reliable to sell himself in them.
Al
A question for James Richards
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
James,
I thought I found Lopez last night but turned out to be wrong.
What I find interesting about the cable I am referring to is that the reference to Lopez is minus a service number, which is normally presented with the name. This tells me that either the Major Lopez reference is an operational name or that this is not the first cable to Conein in reference to Lopez from the DIA. I would lean toward the operational name. That is if this is ligit.
Another issue that brings this into an interesting perspective is the timeline of the first planned attempt on JFK in Chicago in conjunction with the Diem assassination. The latter having evidence of Conein's support as a go between between Big Mihn and the White House.
If this is ligit, it would make alot of sense as to the motivation and likelihood of the operational level of the attack. What is missing is a link to operations in the US for staging and a link to the setting up of Oswald. Somewhere this must have went through New Orleans, at least in the setting up of the Oswald Legend. Now whether that was with knowledge of the events that were going to take place or it was simply made aware to the operators and utilized by them, is the next question.
If this is ligit, it takes this to the next step. I appreciate your looking into the flight out of the region, but if Team 5 was utilized in DP, I also doubt you will find a manifest. I also have serious doubts we will ever find Team 5.
Al