Al Carrier
-
Posts
324 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Store
Posts posted by Al Carrier
-
-
[snipped for Brevity]Hi John!
Is it at all feasible that a man could lay in the position illustrated, with a newspaper or something draped over his weapon to conceal it - say the 30.06, and from the area of the stairs, fire a round over the head of Emmett Hudson [who was in a prone position] as the motorcade drew within an almost parallel position to the stairs, and hit Kennedy in the side of the head, with an impact that would sweep him over sideways as if he were hit with a baseball bat [bill Newman's account to Ian Griggs]? In which case his leg might dangle over the edge of the Lincoln, and his shoe could still be seen when the Lincoln arrived at parkland? Would a 30.06 have sufficient power to cause such a tremendous physical reaction from that distance [+/- 20 feet] and create the damage that certain researchers believe is the case, barring the altered and missing medical evidence? Is this a typical sniper type position?- lee
Howdy Lee,
The best way I can address this issue is by way of an anecdote:
I was once involved in the forensic aspects of a prison shooting in which a deranged prisoner took a nurse hostage and was using her as a human shield with a knife at her throat.
The sniper who took him out was positioned in a 20 meter guntower and firing about 300 meters dowrange, using a 7.62mm/.308 cartridge with a 180 grain Speer Silvertip bullet.
The prisoner behind his hostage was about 2 meters from the window when the sniper took his shot.
The bullet, at that angle of trajectory, penetrated 12.7mm of steel impregnated tempered glass, knocked the nurse out cold from its supersonic shockwave and nearly blew the head off of the prisoner.
The sniper had about a 50mm margin of error when he made that shot.
So is the '06 scenario plausable? You Bet!
Respectfully:
That's a pretty decent shot John, even for a stationary target. Do you know what type of windage was involved here? The 20m elevation is definately impressive.
The problem I have with a shot from the north knoll be the shot origin is that the impact would have been to the right side of the head with the massive exit being contained to the right side. A shot from the south striking the right side of the head and then blowing out the right rear is likely. Such a bullet impact would not deflect outward in it's penetration trajectory, but instead turn inward at the initial point of resistance.
Al
-
Al wrote:
What still amazes me in the research community is that so many put so much weight into the effectiveness of the mob! This crime was being covered up withing the first hours. To believe the government had a heads up that the mob would assassinate a sitting president and allow it come off and then cover it up so quickly without retaliation is laughable. Don't you think that Santo, Carlos and MoMo would have been eliminated within hours to show that this is not acceptable if this is the case? Do you think these thugs had this much control of the government to allow them to get away with it and continue to operate?
And to believe that Castro made this happen and not have Cuba blown off the map the next day is also laughable. We knew that the Soviets did not have the nuclear resources to challenge us and would not attempt to do so in giving up Cuba.
Castro has survived everyone else because he is not important to the overall scheme of things.
"What still amazes me in the research community is that so any put so much weight on the effectiveness of the Mob." What amazes me, Al, is that anyone believes that the CIA could organize an assassination more effectively than the Mafia. And remember, in my analysis, the assassination was orchestrated not just by any mafioso but by Santo Trafficante, Jr., who never spent a single night in an American prison. I am not aware of any other mafioso who had such a record of escaping conviction. Trafficante's record demonstrates that he was indeed a criminal genius. I am sure that he got by with several murders, including those of John F. Kennedy and Johnny Rosselli, and probably Sam Giancana and Albert Anastasia.
How the heck could the CIA kill Kennedy when, after numerous attempts by the mafia and Cuban exiles, it could not even kill Castro? Remember, the CIA knew that Rosselli had involved Trafficante in the anti-Castro plots but it was not even smart enough to figure out that a sister agency, the BNI, had information that Trafficante was probably a double-agent for Castro.
The CIA? That could not even bug Dan Rowan's hotel suite without getting caught?
The CIA, that planned the BOP without giving any consideration to the coral reef that surrounds Cuba?
The CIA, whose plans for the BOP did not take into consideration the time zone difference between Guatemala and Cuba?
Come on, now, Al, if I had wanted to hire anyone to kill an enemy in the early 1960s, I would have gone to Santo Trafficante, Jr., not Richard Bissell or E. Howard Hunt! (If Bill Casey had been around in those days, my answer might be different. IMO, Casey deserves a lot of the credit for winning the Cold War.)
Finally, I should add that, as you know, I think Santo had help planning the assassination, from Valery Kostikov and Fabian Escalante.
Sorry you actually believe that Tim but you are confusing outlined operational procedures aligned by the CIA against Catro in the early 60's with realistic abilities of the CIA in conjunction with the military that they have proven in SE Asia and Central America. The mob has no background for such operations where the military in conjunction with the CIA and DIA have proven themselves effective time and again. Phoenix was an early example and then in the early eighties, Operation Cortez was yielding an average of ten successful elimination a week in Central America, all with the shooters walking away.
Castro survived because he was of use in cold war politics. Hollywood has romanticized the abilities of the mob and it has continued on through the likes of Wim Danbarr's support of a low life thug of James Files when it comes to the Kennedy Assassination.
The likes of Mafia kingpins such as Mo-Mo, Santo and Carlos were tolerated because of their money laundering and aiding in covert operations. A classic example of the latter years is the indictment of Hull in Coasta Rica who was then flown out to the US and is still in hiding of the felony narcotics trafficing.
Again, can you please answer why we were in place to so quickly cover up a mob hit in Dealey Plaza instead of disrupting it?
It all comes down to timing and ability. The mob does not figure in either. It is time to come back to reality...
Al
-
Al wrote:
Where Tim Gratz is fogging this issue, is when he accepts that the Secret Service was not involved to explain that it was not a conspiracy within the government to assassinate the president. One has nothing to do with the other and I will gladly spar with Tim here on these issues. A professional team of assassins would not need Secret Service compliance in order to succeed in DP.
Al, to the contrary, I have made this point (probably on a different thread).
We agree, I think, that there was no "security stripping" in Dallas.
I agree with Greg that had there been "security stripping" (which there was not), that would have been evidence of an internal coup.
You are correct, however, that the absence of security stripping does not PRECLUDE an internal coup, and there was no need for security stripping to permit the assassination.
My point is simply that there is no evidence for an internal coup. I keep asking proponents of that theory to offer evidence for it. To date, none has been offered.
IMO, the strongest evidence points to the involvement of Santo Trafficante, Jr. The question is on whose behalf he was acting.
Tim, my rebuttal to that is; was Santo involved in the planning of the assassination attempts in Chicago and Miami prior to Dallas? If they had the means to abort these attempts, then why would they allow the likes of Santo to survive beyond any of them? What evidence do you have that would show that the mob would have elements consistent with an assassination team that acted in DP? Why would the cover-up take place so quickly in Dallas to cover the likes of a mob hit and then not retaliate against such thugs?
The mob was used by the government for money laundering and narcotics trafficing for monitary funding of operations prior to and long after the Kennedy Assassination. Can you name any realistic hands-on operation that the mob worked out that was even close to the operation in DP?
This is laughable to say the least. I hate to be so demeaning, but it is hard not to. This was a professional hit and the problem was that the government saw a pattern and could not get to the source prior to it being achieved. But it was there to cover it up as the pattern was set.
Al
-
Al, you wrote:
"Consider how the assassination was carried out and covered up within a period of less than six hours. How does that fit into your theories?"
That Jack Ruby killed LHO demonstates, IMO, the role organized crime played in the assassination. Someone in organized crime obviously ordered JR to eliminate LHO. The likeliest candidates, IMO, are Marcello or Trafficante. I am sure one of the inducements made to Ruby was the promise of the best legal representation.
The question is whether organized crime was assisting someone else in the assassination or was acting only on its own behalf.
Given Trafficante's ties to Cubela, and his reported links to Castro, and given the CIA's dealing with Cubela, coupled with the report of a DGI agent in Dealey Plaza, it is not unreasonable to suspect Castro had requested Trafficante's help in killing Kennedy. To the extent other members of organized crime may have aassisted in the assassination, they may not have known of Castro's role. Remember "mob lawyer" Ragano had conveyed to Marcello and Trafficante Hoffa's desire to see Kennedy killed. And Marcello, of course, had reasons of his own to want Kennedy killed.
So Trafficante may very well have been serving two (or even three) masters when he helped plan the Kennedy hit.
Tim,
What still amazes me in the research community is that so many put so much weight into the effectiveness of the mob! This crime was being covered up withing the first hours. To believe the government had a heads up that the mob would assassinate a sitting president and allow it come off and then cover it up so quickly without retaliation is laughable. Don't you think that Santo, Carlos and MoMo would have been eliminated within hours to show that this is not acceptable if this is the case? Do you think these thugs had this much control of the government to allow them to get away with it and continue to operate?
And to believe that Castro made this happen and not have Cuba blown off the map the next day is also laughable. We knew that the Soviets did not have the nuclear resources to challenge us and would not attempt to do so in giving up Cuba.
Castro has survived everyone else because he is not important to the overall scheme of things.
Al
-
What most fail to understand in dignitary protection is that the protection detail must adjust to the terrain of the motorcade route and the demands of the dignitary’s inner circle as to how the dignitary will be presented. Both can put considerable restrictions on an ideal protection detail in a motorcade.
In the case of Dallas on November 22, 1963, the Secret Service protection was compromised by both the route and the desire to expose the President and the first lady to the people of Dallas. The route was influenced to expose the Kennedy’s to as many of the citizens as possible, thus taking the Man Street Route that ended in DP to get to the Stemmons. This also called for the removal of the bubble top. This route required a slow speed narrow roadway that driver Greer had to utilize a left of center route down Main to keep the crowds away from the President’s side of the limo. This prevented a flying wedge formation of the five lead motorcycles that is normally utilized and a rear wedge of the four motorcycles off the rear quarter of the limo. The motorcycles on the driver’s side where the first lady was seated could not fit between the limo and the crowds, as the limo had to drive left of center to keep the crowds back from the president. Driver Greer compensated this by driving with his door open and angled at roughly 45 degrees to keep the crowds back on his side.
Agents in the follow-up car did exit and take positions on the rear standers on three occasions from the time the motorcade left Love Field until it entered Dealey Plaza. This is in contradiction to the issues that the Secret Service were told to stay off the limo, period. The fine line here is that they were told to stay off whenever possible without compromising their duties to protect the President and the First Lady. This is an issue of exposure to the public without overreacting to the crowds.
Once the motorcade entered DP, the roadway opened to allow for a flying wedge formation, but the immediacy of threat was no longer there as the proximity and volume of crowds had diminished from the earlier portion of the route. Why then would they drop back in the flying wedge formation?
In my article in the DP Echo of March of 2002 that I sent the submitted draft to John, I also address the issues of the reaction time of the agents once the shooting starts and explain it through proven testing.
Where Tim Gratz is fogging this issue, is when he accepts that the Secret Service was not involved to explain that it was not a conspiracy within the government to assassinate the president. One has nothing to do with the other and I will gladly spar with Tim here on these issues. A professional team of assassins would not need Secret Service compliance in order to succeed in DP.
Al
-
To Greg:
Do you really think so many people would be asked to help kill the President and not one of them would object and report it?
IMO, the issue of security stripping is ludicrous. I know Al Carrier, who has experience and training in this area, agrees with me. Security, or the lack thereof, was no different in Dallas than on any of Kennedy's other trips. You mention the lack of running boards on the presidential limousine. Is it your contention the limousine had running boards but they were removed before the Dallas trip? Of perhaps the engineers who designed the limousine deliberately left off running boards just in case someone wanted to kill the President.
It is not clear who you think LHO was. I suspect he was working for US intelligence in some capacity, which, as I have suggested in other threads, demonstrates why the CIA did not kill JFK. Had the CIA wanted to, it could have found a true left-wing patsy with no connection to U.S. intelligence.
Re the Cuba peace initiative, since JFK and RFK were trying to kill Castro bthrough Cubela, that was onbiously a farce--and Castro knew it. Why do you think he scheduled his meeting with Daniel for the very moment he knew his agents would be killing Kennedy? I suppose it was just a phenomenal coincidence. And why do you think Lisa Howard, the ABC reporter so significant in the peace initiatives, turned so violently against RFK that she helped form "Democrats for Keating" in 1964 when she had previously been a Kennedy supporter? Because she had discovered that the peace initiatives were a farce.
Castro's best hope was with JFK who was trying to kill him? What kind of reasoning is this? You know, do you not, that LBJ ordered all assassination attempts against Castro terminated.
And re Trafficante, he was making far more money from being a drug distributor in the US than he had made with the Havana casinos.
So far all you and the other people who suggest an "internal coup" do is offer speculation with no evidence of any nature. There is substantial evidence demonstrating Trafficante's involvement in the assassination, including a remark he made caught on a FBI wiretap, and his death-bed admission to his attorney. Plus, of course, his ties to Ruby. Trafficante was linked to Cubela and Cubela was linked to Castro.
If you have any EVIDENCE that anyone in the US government plotted the death of JFK (other than the non-issue of "security stripping") now would be an opportune time to post it.
Tim,
I do respect the amount of work you are puting in here, but the problem is your failure to understand the basics of this whole issue. You are spending far too much time with soldier of fortune/wantabees like Gerry Hemming who would not even be considered to be in the loop so what he says is laughable, instead of trying to understand what others such as Tosh has came forward with. Jack and Jill never came home is a standard of operational procedure from '63 to '81 where intelligence utilizes,controls and eliminates anyone that they have pawned. Consider how the assassination was carried out and covered up within a period of less than six hours. How does that fit into your theories?
The world is a scary place and one does not have to look far for who makes it that way.
Al
-
Hi Bill,
Where was Bill Greer, the driver of the presidential limousine the night of November 21st and the early morning hours of November 22, 1963?
Bill Greer's after-action report is at 18H723 here:
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol18_0369a.htm
While he starts his narrative at 11:30 on the morning of the 22nd, James Rowley said that of the 9 SS Agents who went to the Press Club and 10 Agents who went to the Cellar, only four agents went to these places who were also in the motorcade: Landis, Hill, Ready, and Bennett.
Steve Thomas
Steve and Don,
If you know a law enforcement officer in your area who has been assigned dignitary protection detail on an overnight stay, ask them what they did at night when they got off duty after the dignitary was secured in the hotel. And ask them who they were with. Not condoning violating rules and regs, but it happens and only blows up when a tragedy occurs such as 11/22/63. And Don, I don't make excuses for their failed actions, simply explain it realistically using a human factor that is always there.
Al
-
Lets try that attachment again.
Al
-
Thanks, Ryan. As always very informative.
I asked because according to Rappleye and Becker in 'All American Mafioso - The Johnny Rosselli Story", William Harvey secured a bunch of FAL's which was part of his Executive Action blueprint where weapons could not be traced back to American agents. The FAL of course being the weapon used by the Cuban army.
I also hark back to the varied reports of other weapons being discovered after the assassination. According to a Dallas television station, a rifle was found in the fifth floor stairwell.
I'm wondering if indeed such a weapon existed, could it have been an FAL obviously planted to enhance the Castro did it story line. Pure speculation of course.
Thanks again, Ryan.
BTW, I guess that song, "It Never Rains In Southern California" is a cleverly crafted piece of disinformation?
Get well soon.
James
For those who are not familiar with the FAL, here is a photo. I work on them periodically as my nephews own them and some fellow officers. They are a bit finicky on ammo and the gas chamber settings is touchy.
Al
-
At any rate, and be that as it may, have you had a chance to check out any of Dave Emory's poly-carbonated tipped bullets from Hornady? He has implied to me at least, that they perform on par to the hotter KTW loads with respect to penetration but produce a far greater cone of destruction. I haven't had the means to test that theory yet and was wondering if you or someone you knew might have some experience with those bullets.
Respectfully:
John,
Tested them in the 168gr .308 from a Remington 700 and they are all of what they are supposed to be. IMO, when you get into this range of weapon caliber, even the basic JHP will result in more than enough elimination range of wound ballistics. I am impressed with it however if it holds in the 55gr 5.56mm for a varmit load. Nasty round and accurate to boot.
Al
-
At the urging of Larry Hancock, I've decided to come forward with something I've been thinking about.
In 1997, the CIA declassified a number of documents related to the 1954 coup in Guatemala. I've recently spent some time pouring through these documents, Among them are redacted lists of purported communists who were to be assassinated (how do we know they weren't?) after the coup took place. On the cover note on one of these lists is the name Rip, which is listed as being illegible on the National Security Archive, but which is clearly a reference to Rip Robertson. On an earlier report, most likely prepared by Albert Haney, co-ordinated with Tracy Barnes, there is a logistics list including a mention of 21 .22 caliber rifles with silencers. Also included in the documents is a CIA STUDY of ASSASSINATION, found in the training file of the Guatemalan operation. This is the manual one would have to assume was used by Robertson and David Sanchez Morales while training the exile army of Carlos Castillo-Armas. The manual says, in part:
f) Silent Firearms
The sound of the explosion of the proponent in a firearm can be effectively silenced by appropriate attachments. However, the sound of the projective passing through the air cannot, since this sound is generated outside the weapon. In cases w here the velocity of the bullet greatly exceeds that of sound, the noise so generated is much louder than that of the explosion. Since all powerful rifles have muzzle velocities of over 2000 feet per second, they cannot be silenced.
Pistol bullets, on the other hand, usually travel slower than sound and the sound of their flight is negligible. Therefore, pistols, submachine guns and any sort of improvised carbine or rifle which will take a low velocity cartridge can be silenc ed. The user should not forget that the sound of the operation of a repeating action is considerable, and that the sound of bullet strike, particularly in bone is quite loud.
Silent firearms are only occasionally useful to the assassin, though they have been widely publicized in this connection. Because permissible velocity is low, effective precision range is held to about 100 yards with rifle or carbine type weapons, while with pistols, silent or otherwise,
are most efficient just beyond arms length. The silent feature attempts to provide a degree of safety to the assassin, but mere possession of a silent firearm is likely to create enough hazard to counter the advantage of its silence. The silent pisto l combines the disadvantages of any pistol with the added one of its obviously clandestine purpose.
A telescopically sighted, closed-action carbine shooting a low velocity bullet of great weight, and built for accuracy, could be very useful to an assassin in certain situations. At the time of writing, no such weapon is known to exist.
END QUOTE
This is significant in that the CIA is asserting that rifles firing a sub-sonic charge are still accurate up to 100 yards. More importantly, on the logistics list they specifically request .22 caliber rifles, when they have their pick of rifles with a much-larger caliber. This indicates that there were advantages to a .22. Since the .22 was the rifle requested and was given to the Guatemalans along with the Study in Asssassination, it only makes sense that the "100 yards" comment apllies to the .22. This is in direct contradiction to the writings of Al Carrier, who insisted a .22 firing a sub-sonic charge would be essentially worthless as a sniper rifle. While Carrier may have been right, the CIA undoubtedly led their assassins-in-training to believe otherwise.
Shockingly, elsewhere in the assassination manual it states "public figures or guarded officials may be killed with great reliability and some safety if a firing point can be established prior to an official occasion. The propaganda value may be very high."
This brings up the question of who in the CIA were the propaganda specialists for the Guatemalan operation. And we have our answers in the names of E. Howard Hunt and David A Phillips. So here we have Robertson, Morales, Hunt, Phillips, and Barnes all tied up in this. J.C. King proposed assassinations as part of his original plan PBFORTUNE. so he's tied up in it as well.
On the CIA's own historical review of the assassination plots, declassified in 1997, it notes that "According to (a four letter name's) draft memorandum, after creating a story that BLANK (obviously Arbenz) was trying to oust the communists, he could be eliminated."
Since this was in 1953, this could have been King, who in 1953 was still over-seeing the project, but it could also be Hunt, since he was admittedly involved in seeking out support for Armas' upcoming coup around this time. Intriguingly, Castillo-Armas himself was assassinated by someone who was immediately identified as a communist, but with evidence so flimsy even Allen Dulles was skeptical. While the real story was never unveiled, the man who rose to power shortly thereafter, Miguel Ydigoras Fuentes, was the U.S.'s main ally in the training of the Bay of Pigs, an operation run by the same CIA men involved in the 1954 coup and the CIA study in assassination. Jake Esterline, the operational planner for the Bay of Pigs, told a CIA interviewer in 1977, when discussing Carlos Alejos' suggestion that the CIA deal with the growing unrest in the training camps by either shipping them or shooting them, "and if you shoot them, bury them deep," said "that is how Ydigoras controlled his position for forty years, so he must have buried them deep. I think he buried that piece of paper, too, along with (word missed--Basset's barking.)" If the word purportedly missing is Castillo-Armas, then we have a CIA agent with extensive experience in Guatemala stating his belief that Ydigoras Fuentes killed Castillo-Armas. That Castillo-Armas was in the process of throwing the gambling interests ouf of Guatemala when he was killed, and that he was killed in a manner that would implicate the communists, along the lines of a CIA plan to kill his predecessor, and that the co-ordinated message of the U.S. media and the Guatemalan military was that his assassin was a communist, makes this whole incident disturbing. One might rightfully wonder if a rogue element of the CIA in league with the gambling interests didn't help Fuentes gain power.
So far this has been a history lesson. Now comes my application of these facts to the JFK mystery.
For those familiar with my seminar, it should not be a shock that I believe a bullet striking Kennedy in his hairline at 224 went down his neck and quite possibly hit Connally after its exit. It struck me that both of Kennedy's wounds, the wound in the hairline as measured by the autopsists, and the neck wound as measured by Dr. Perry in Dallas, were smaller than should be expected for a 6.5 mm bullet traveling at 1800 fps. It occurred to me that perhaps this was in fact a sub-sonic
.22 bullet fired from a similar trajectory as the TSBD, most probably from the roof or upper floors of the Dal-Tex. It occurred to me as well that such a bullet would lack the energy to create both JFK's and Connally's wounds. So I decided to look into .22 automatic rifles available in 1963, as a silenced burst of gunfire could account for both wounds, and found that the only one widely used, by the U.S. Special Forces in Vietnam, no less, was the M-16.
In reading about the M-16 and silencers I came across the creepy coincidence that much of the early research on M-16's and silencers took place at Edgewood Arsenal, the home of both the Warren Commission's ballistics expert Alfred Olivier and the HSCA's ballistics expert Larry Sturdivan. The bullet wound expert present at the autopsy, Dr. Pierre Finck, was also an Edgewood employee, although his stint there seems to have come shortly after the assassination.
Even creepier, when reading about the history of the M-16 in Mortal Error, I came across a photo of the exhibit list of Sturdivan's HSCA testimony and it showed that exhibit number 114 was of an "m-193 bullet at 800 fps velocity." M-193 is the cartridge used in M-16s. Since Sturdivan testifed that exhibit 113 was of an m-16 bullet travelling at 3000 feet, which would be the speed of an M-16 bullet upon impact with Kennedy, it seems clear that an 800 fps bullet would be a test of a subsonic m-16 bullet striking Kennedy after being fired around 1000 fps, just under the sound barrier.
My paranoia set in however when I realized that the official list of this exhibit lists it as 800 MPS, not fps, and that Sturdivan's testimony is 800 mps, not fps. Mps would be meters per second, a reference neither Sturdivan nor his predecessor Olivier ever use anywhere else in their testimony. Combined, they make well over 30 references to fps, however. I then noticed that the exhibit list on the McAdams website mislabels both 113 and 114 and completely disguises that they represent gelatin blocks fired into by an m-16. Upon studying the wound ballistics of an M-16, I found that it does the most damage after becoming instable and that this usually occurs at 2700 fps, and that bullets travelling in the range of 2500-2700 fps may or may not become instable. Since 800 mps is 2625 fps, I momentarily thought it was all just a misunderstanding. But, after staring at 113 and 114, I found myself unable to accept that 113 represented a bullet releasing only 20 percent more energy. (Since energy is mass X speed squared and the mass is the same between the two then the only difference is the percentage difference in speed being squared .) It looks to me more like the 15 times or so more energy that would be the difference between a 3000 fps and an 800 fps bullet.
Anyhow, I've come to suspect a silenced automatic weapon was fired at Kennedy from the DAL-TEX and that our government for purposes of National Security has been covering it up, perhaps unwittingly. The book Silencer History and Performance by Alan C Paulson makes note that there are many things associated with silencers which are still considered classified information bv the government. Perhaps Sturdivan unwittingly entered something into evidence whic was "classified." Or perhaps someone knew the significance of the 800 fps M-16 bullet and "silenced" it from his testimony.
I'll come back and edit this and maybe add some links but I just wanted to get the word out before I get side-tracked. I think this could be an important area of research. Maybe John Ritchson or Al Carrier can chime in with their impressions of 113 vs. 114?
Pat,
Very interesting post! What you are confusing here is a .223 and a .22. A .223 will be in the range of 50-69gr and have velocities ranging in 2200-2600fps. A .22 will be in the range of 37-50gr and have velocities in the range of 800-1400fps. An AR-15 is a semi-automatic M16 basically and there are AR15s chambers for .22. The standard chambering of the AR15/M16 is a .223.
Growing up in Iowa, I spent a great deal of time hunting as a youth. This was my initial orientation into firearms. My favorite hunt was red squirrel with my .22 Remington squirrel rifle that I could take a squirrel out of a tree at 50yards with iron sights with no problem. But we are not talking about squirrels here. Several years ago I responded to a shooting at a residence and upon arrival, I found a subject laying on a kitchen floor in a pool of blood with a small hole in his forehead. I bent down to check vitals and he opened his eyes and spoke to me. Needless to say, I nearly soiled my pants. The subject had been shot in the forehead with contact shot from a .22 pistol that fired a bullet with a muzzle velocity of 1100fps. The bullet had entered and deflected, travelling around the exterior of the skull, under the scalp and lodged in the back of his head, outside the skull. He had a fractured skull at the point of impact, but it did not penetrate due to the downward angle of the bullet on impact.
In dealing with a light bullet, we are subjected to the issue of a low end sustained velocity through penetration. Even in flight, once the velocity begins to drop, it drops quickly. With penetration of a foreign body, the energy is quickly released and the velocity is quickly lost. With a .22, we are dealing with a low range velocity to begin with. Penetration is in the low end and energy dispersion into the cavity is confined to initial penetration is minute in nature compared to most other calibers.
I stand by what I have said before as a .22 would not be a caliber of choice for an assassin targeting the president in Dealey Plaza. It is accurate enough for these ranges, but the wound ballistics would not be considered for this feat.
Just because the CIA backed a specific weapon or procedure does not make it quality. Exploding clam shells, chemicals to make the beard fall out and other rediculous efforts to remove Castro were all backed by the CIA and are laughable. If you want to know how to eliminate a target, ask the military. That is who the CIA relied upon when they needed the job done.
Al
-
So much of the problem is in an accurate estimation of the wounds,
on which to base our ballistics model.
The Warren commission and HSAC material is compromised and mutually
exclusive. The right temple wound is generally interpreted to be a back to
front tangential wound by the "lone gunman" supporters, but it is seen
as a front to back tangential temple wound by traditional "grassy knoll"
The Bullet into the back didn't penetrate or exit, so it wasn't super high power,
maybe it was hollow or even mercury filled?
I believe in an early forward originating .22 shot to JFK's throat, although
AL says that any shot would have been "for the Kill" --evidence points to
small caliber preliminary entry wound. Small caliber rifle from the front
The photos and X-raays apparently cover up a right temple entry wound
and a large rear lower skull exit wound. High powered rifle from the front.
Connally sustained two or three distinct bullet events, from a fairly high angle,
possibly all from the rear. His ribs, wrist and thigh damaged, but not mortally.
Possibly an Il Duce 6.5 with working sites from the rear.
Don Roberdeau's evidentiary map shows skull and bullet material downfield
from the limousine, originating from the Dallas Textile building, and Ms.
Gutierrez makes it clear that the Blood and Tissue pattern conforms to
a forward originating shot. Shots from front and back, headshots: skull forward, tissue backward.
High powered front and back fire.
Organized crime, when it comes together in an alliance to murder someone,
will often use multiple caliber weapons and multiple shots to make it clear
that more than one entity (crime family, motorcycle gang, capo) is taking
responsibility....multiple weapons, calibers and directions not only signifies a
tactical triangulation, but also multi-unit coalition of forces is involved.
Shanet,
Could you please post a reference to an organized crime hit where high powered rifles were utilized or anything that is comparison to the events of Dealey Plaza. I would appreciate seeing a similar MO when it comes to organized crime.
Al
-
We've often heard that Greer was not JFK's regular driver, and this has sometimes been used to excuse his inept performance in Dealey Plaza. I would think that even a one hour seminar would have imparted enough information to a presidential limousine driver to make him realize that you don't slow down (or perhaps stop) when you hear the sound of gunfire during a motorcade. The total lack or reaction by JFK's entire Secret Service contingent that day was inexcusable and should have been properly investigated. Of course, we could say the same thing about the crime itself.
The reaction of the SS agents in the two cars is very marked. The SS agents protecting LBJ behaved as they were supposed to. For example, Rufus Youngblood responded instantly to the first shot, and before the head shots were fired, had covered Vice-President Lyndon Johnson with his body.
Roy Kellerman made no attempt to do this. The only person who did as expected was Clint Hill in the follow-up car. Hill was actually employed to protect Jackie Kennedy. That what he was trying to do. However, when he eventually got on board he took action to protect JFK. This is an extract from his testimony before the Warren Commission. "I jumped onto the left rear step of the Presidential automobile. Mrs. Kennedy shouted, "They've shot his head off," then turned and raised out of her seat as if she were reaching to her right rear toward the back of the car for something that had blown out. I forced her back into her seat and placed my body above President and Mrs. Kennedy."
He was the only Secret Service agent who attempted to cover the president's body with his own.
At the Warren Commission Hill claimed he only heard two shots. He also thought the second shot sounded very different from the first shot. Some researchers have claimed that this indicated that it had been fired from a different gun. Another explanation is that the second and third shots were fired at virtually the same time.
The daughter of Roy Kellerman, the Secret Agent in Kennedy's car, told Harold Weisberg in the 1970's that "I hope the day will come when these men (Kellerman and Greer) will be able to say what they've told their families". I wonder what they told them?
John,
To compare the actions of Yougblood to Zellerman is a disservice to Roy Kellerman. Compare the responsibilities of the two first off. Kellerman was the lead and was the radio man for the entire motorcade, set aside his responsibilities of overall hands-on security of the president throughout the trip. Youngblood leaped over a seat when he and Johnson reported that they heard the first shot. Kellerman had a few other issues on his mind at the time and also had the obstruction of the Connally's between him and the president, not to mention the steel cross member. If he left his post in the front passenger seat, then there would have been a break down in control and radio operations. Each agent has a specific duty! If he had overreacted the sounds of the initial shots which were in close comparison to earlier fireworks and motorcycle backfires and ordered the limo out of the motorcade alignment and it turned out not be gunfire, then how would that have effected the political aspects of the trip?
Greer had drove this limo through heavy close crowds along Main and had to drive with his door partially opened throughout a portion to keep the onlookers off the drivers side as they drove on the left side of the street to keep the crowds back from the president's side. He then entered the open plaza and his intial concern was the persons on the overpass ahead that he would have to drive under. His guard would have been down somewhat and his focus on the overpass straight ahead. Is it likely his reaction time would have been delayed?
Greer and Kellerman did not travel with JFK on the Miami trip which released intel on a shooter from a building with a high powered rifle. Their intel concerns related to Stevenson being struck with a sign and Johnson being spat on on previous visits to big D. Their focal point was likely the crowds of immediate concern and it took them awhile to absorb the shots being fired.
I will gladly e-mail you my paper that I have referred to that explains action v. reaction v. response and explains the delayed reactions of the secret service.
We all must keep in mind that Kellerman and Greer were seeing the motorcade route for the first time. They travelled with the President. To believe that they put themselves willingly in a triangulation of fire is rediculous. For those who are familiar with firearms and those who are familiar with sniper operations, I would love to hear from them in reference this. Who would rely on another within the limo to no get hit when the target is moving in such a disruptive way.
Al
-
Great question, Terry!
What is the signature of a mercury load's exit ?
A grapefruit sized avulsion?
No Specific Pattern?
The mercury load theme was used in both the film EXECUTIVE ACTION
and THE DAY OF THE JACKAL, so there is quite a bit of speculation on this angle...
also, isn't this the kind of thing Mitch Werbell could have provided in 1963?
Or would it point to a joint agency lab?
Terry and Shanet,
Any compromised bullet, whether it be a jacketed soft point, hollow point or mercury or other foreign material filled bullet (in that order of comprimization and fragmentation) will release it's energy rather quickly into the cavity into which it was fired into. Its integrity will be compromised and fragmentation will occur and this fragmentation reduces the velocity and therefore the sustained velocity and consistent energy dispersion within the cavity. While a fragmenting bullet will do considerable internal damage within the cavity through eviceration of soft tissue and arteries, it does not sustain its trajectory and have consistent energy dispersion within the cavity that would result in a massive blowout at the point of exit. This is only achieved through a full metal jacketed bullet that has 1800fps or greater velocity to create an internal wound cavity that is depresses the internal fluids and material due to the energy dispersion. It retains enough velocity to carry this energy disruption out of the exit.
IMO with the headwound, we are looking at a FMJ bullet in the range of 2400fps or greater that initially penetrated shallow into the cavity. This is why we have the flap and the extensive exit wound and forced reaction rearward of the head.
Al
-
Yes, James. The Z film is a fabrication. (Jack White)
Hi Jack,
To continue my earlier babbling, the classic Altgens' photo shows JFK going for his throat so he has obviously been hit and Clint Hill is still positioned on the running boards of the following vehicle. This means he has only a few seconds to get off the vehicle and to catch the limo at the time of the headshot.
A few weeks ago, some friends and I tried to duplicate Hill's performance given that he reacted at the time of the first shot which according to the extant photographic record, he did not which makes his feat even more incredible.
The vehicles we used were travelling at ten miles per hour and were not slowed. Now I am quite fit, not a bad middle distance runner and in six seconds, I didn't even get close. The only way I could get close in the alotted time frame was to slow the lead vehicle down markedly which IMO, the Zapruder film doesn't depict.
FWIW.
James
James, Jack and all,
First of all, I have never seen any realistic proof of Z-Film alteration, only speculation from misunderstanding what one is seeing. The Z-Film is consistent with what is seen in other films and photos. It also shows the limo slowing prior to head impact with what I have gauged as from 12mph to 5mph roughly. One must consider the angle and distance of the limo to the camera. When considering the witnesses observation of both those in the motorcade and those outside of it stating the the limo came to a stop, one must keep in mind that the slowing of the limo sets off a chain reaction of delayed reaction of the cars further back in the motorcade and many of the cars further back came to a near or complete stop to react to the slowing of the limo.
The actions of the secret service agents were simply reactions to what was being heard and seen and then their response to the reaction that they conceived. There are many factors involved here that I have posted at Lancer and have put into the paper published by the Dealey Plaza Echo. It is a science of action v. reaction v. response that I have not only studied but also took part in the developement of the exercises that substanciated the findings.
I have posted here a segment of the paper I published in the DP Echo which explains Hill's reaction and response. If John can get Ian Griggs to ok my posting the entire paper here, I will gladly do it and I firmly believe it will explain the majority of concerns.
As the first shot rings out, Agents in and on the follow-up car turn to the rear in recognition of a loud noise. Agents in the front seat of the limo do the same. There reaction is immediate to hearing the sound. There turn to the sound is to verify what is was they had heard.
Agent Hill on the passenger side front portion running board of the follow-up car testifies to looking over his shoulder to identify the source of the sound, but his eyes cross the President and he sees the President react to being hit. He testifies that he immediately leaves the follow-up car and runs to the presidential limo to provide protection to it’s occupants . We see in the Altgens photo that Hill turns back to the source of where he assumes the shot came . This is not in contradiction to his statement, as his mind has still not processed what he has seen in passing across the limo.
Considering that Hill has turned toward the direction of the source at roughly Zapruder Film frame 217 and reaches the limo at frame 317. We must deduce his response time from this. The conclusion of frame 217 is in conjunction with the matching of the positioning of the occupants with the Zapruder Film and the Altgens Photo. The Zapruder Film recorded at roughly 18fps, which would give him a reaction and travel time of 5.2 seconds. For Hill to have recognized the sound as something of concern and fully turned to it’s location of origin that he perceived, we would place the shot location at approximately Z-frame 181 to 190. Considering he had to leave the follow-up car that was traveling at roughly 15mph and close on the limo traveling at the same speed from a distance of roughly fifteen feet, this would take off approximately two to two and a half seconds. Leaving Hill with a response time of 2.5 to 3 seconds. This time is well within the expectations of the tests listed above.
Al
-
We've often heard that Greer was not JFK's regular driver, and this has sometimes been used to excuse his inept performance in Dealey Plaza. I would think that even a one hour seminar would have imparted enough information to a presidential limousine driver to make him realize that you don't slow down (or perhaps stop) when you hear the sound of gunfire during a motorcade. The total lack or reaction by JFK's entire Secret Service contingent that day was inexcusable and should have been properly investigated. Of course, we could say the same thing about the crime itself.
If I recall correctly, Vince Palamara interviewed Greer's son years after the assassination. The son admitted that Greer didn't personally like JFK, and his reason was that "well, he was Catholic, you know," or words to that effect. I would urge all critics to read the great research done by Palamara, much of which is available online.
Don,
Ian Griggs published an 18 page article I wrote in the Dealey Plaza Echo in March of 2002 that deals with the issues of the US Secret Service reactions in Dealey Plaza that I believe would put much of this in proper perspective. It dealt with the duties of the Secret Service and of Action v. Reaction v. Response. I would be more than happy to post it here under the on-line forum, if John Simkin can get Ian Griggs to authorize its release.
Al
-
On the Lancer Forum, I saw where John Ritchson reported on the performance of mercury filled bullet. I have quoted him below:
The Terminal Ballistic Effects of a Mercury loaded bullet is a terrible thing indeed.
You must understand that I can't go into any construction details without violating certain provisions of the Patriot Act with respect to providing information on a public forum that could be of possible use to those who are designated Terrorists by the Department of Homeland Security ie. I'm going to be treading a fine-line as it is.
Suffice to say that with an atomic number of 80 and an atomic weight of 200.59,
Mercury is pretty much on par with bullet lead which is usually alloyed with varying amounts of tin, and antimony, which lowers the mass of pure lead. Since mercury is liquid in its' natural state it posesses charactistics which render it truely devestating upon Terminal Impact with a live body. A semi-jacketed hollowpoint bullet so loaded will retain its initial mass and momentum. But, the mercury being liquid will escape the confines of the bullet during the mushrooming stage and expand so quickly as to in effect, expload, creating a hydrostatic shock zone of destruction far greater than the bullet alone. Such a projectile being properly made if shot into the torso will virtually liquify the internal organs and if impacting a human head it can quite literally expload that head. All of this of course occuring in milliseconds of time. The Mercury Load is the MAKE SURE bullet of the professional assassin and requires a good deal of skill in its manufacture_not something that can be whipped-up in a few minutes on a kitchen table. Such a bullet must be milled and loaded to tolerances far greater then can be decerned by the human eye. Otherwise, it will quickly become unstable in flight and all hope of downrange accuracy is lost, even at a range of 100" or so. In fact, an improperly constructed Mercury Load can and under the right conditions will cause a catastrophic instability inside of the weapon's barrel with an outcome that will definently be felt by the shooter. So folks, do not try this at home! Besides being illegal in many places it is damn dangerous to play around with.
With respect to the NAA Analysis conducted by Dr. Guinn on CE-399
and the recovered bullet fragments I find no mention of the presence of Mercury or Carbon the latter which would have been present on this bullet had it been fired through any organic artifact including a human head. Also, lead itself possess several isotopes allowing it to be physically connected to a particular area due to the distribution of these isotopes. The technology for making such determinations were in place well before 1963. I find the absence of such determinations in Dr. Guinn's Report disturbing to say the least.
As to the scope issue:
Once a scope is mounted and sighted in it cannot be physically manipulated in any way without resighting. even an incidental bump or knock is sufficient to cause it to lose its' line of sight. When the sic Experts at Edgewood Arsenal evaluated the alledged JFK killshot Carcano they found that LHO's aimpoint would have to have been some 14 inches off target.
Respectfully:
John Ritchson
What should be pointed out is that mercury is only preserved in a liquid state when controlled in a chamber and not released to surrounding air and temperature. When it is exposed, it becomes hardened and remains in the hardened state. The advantage of the mercury filled bullet is that the core of the lead or lead jacketed bullet is considerably harder and less resistant than the external mass of lead or lead and copper jacketing. The hardened mercury being in the general range of 59 Rockwell Cone and the lead being at roughly 38 Rockwell Cone in hardness.
The problem in designing a mercury filled bullet is to fill the hollowed cavity of the bullet with mecury without pockets as the mercury hardens almost immediately. The fuller the cavity with mercury composition, the greater the dispersement of the bullet.
What occurs upon impact is that the outer lead/lead with copper jacketing depresses against the much harder mercury core and the lead or jacketed lead is disrupted and fragments greatly during initial penetration. This is the exploding bullet. However, what most misunderstand, is that the explosive effect of the bullet is contained within a small cavity as the energy dispersion is compromised greatly due to the minute fragments being dispersed into a resistant cavity. In the case of a skull penetration, the brain would have considerable internal disruption, but it would have little or no effect on an exit wound, as the fragments of the bullet would lose their energy quickly due to their low weight.
I fully support John's issue with the misaligned scope.
Al
-
Al,
You certainly can't leave without posting that photo of Humberto Castillo-Leon for comparison to Lamppost Man. At least give me this...was I right?
Richard
Richard,
No, I won't leave you hanging here. The photo I have is a reproduction of a reproduction and is circa '74 from his inactive DD74 file, which is well behind the '63 LM and mid-60's PBM photos. It is poor quality and when scanning, it breaks down much farther.
I have original copies of his DD74 file which include the above photo and copies of his DD214 and DD206 tracking sheets, on the way. I will forward scans of them to you when I get them and you can decide for yourself. I am also trying to obtain the records of the investigation into his death in N.C., and will gladly forward that as well.
I have delayed my original posting on this and this follow up post in order to prevent the doors slamming in my face in trying to retrieve these docs. I have been assured that the DD74 file and forms are on their way so I can post on it now.
As you are well aware, I have been very critical of photo comparisons to persons in the plaza to suspects in the assassination. However, the comparisons of PBM and of Col. Conein are an exception to this, and after receiving the info on the DIA dispatches to Conein regarding Lopez and Team 5, I had to take it seriously. Now after making the connection with Leon and the photo comparisons, I have to admit I have been swayed and am taking this very seriously. As to your question of "was I right?", at this point, I would have to admit that it is looking like it.
To all of those who have e-mailed me and posted here with the kind words, I deeply appreciate what you have said and hope you understand that I am not exiting here as I did at Lancer. That is, I am not upset with this excellent forum as I was with the way Lancer turned on it's researchers. I have come to terms with the assassination recently and have also been restricted with opportunities to become involved in exchanges due to personal family crisis that have arisen. In the past four months, I have taken over the overnight shift on the department, which limits my exposure to the forum initially, then add to this the failing health of my parents and in-laws, I simply do not have the time to commit to this forum as I would prefer. The discoveries that I have recently made have engulfed my available time and also have drained me as many of the questionable issues of the assassination may be becoming quite clear.
I hope everyone understands and also realizes how much I respect and appreciate what all of you are doing. I will be popping in periodically to read the forum and hope to post periodically. Those who I have been in contact with I hope will still e-mail me with issues of concern which I will gladly accept and reply to in a timely manner.
Respectfully,
Al Carrier
polinst@mchsi.com
-
James,
From what I have been able to dig up, Major Lopez of the Loation Operation of '63 was one Humberto (Bobby) Castillo-Leon. He was the son of a Truman and later Eisenhower State Departmental Official who attended and graduated under the original family name. He was killed in a bar brawl at Ft. Bragg in early '82. His photo and that of Pakse Base Man are identical IMO.
Team 5 appears to be our assassins, from what I have been able to discover.
I do not feel I can add any further to this forum and am now leaving it.
Hope this helps.
Al
-
Mr. Hemming,
Interesting that you point out the issue of compartmentalization on covert operations in the context you did to challenge the authenticity of Tosh Plumlee's history. While compartmentalization is no secret in dealing with covert operations, you chose to be selective in how it works from you to Tosh.
My next question is how reliable are you in providing details of covert ops that may be directly linked to the assassination of JFK? You have the appearance of nothing more than an SOF at the time of the assassination. The history of deep covert ops deals with true military personnel who are often compromised and their records (DD214) are then sanitized to show a dismissal from active duty and are then catagorized as SOF/Mercs to eliminate accountability and connections to the government. While your activities with such lame and unproductive organizations such as INTERPIN would lead most in the know to believe that you were nothing more than a former Marine turned SOF, your willingness to provide sketchy details of links to possible leads to the JFK Assassination would show that you would likely have been the former, an active military personnel involved in Black Ops. What it comes down to is your credibility which IMO is challenged.
Al
-
Hello Nic,
Paranoia in this case is a matter of fear of crossing the line and exposing elements that can retaliate and become detrimental to your well-being.
If one was to prove that one Edwin Wilson was instructing Covert Ops classes in the U.S. to American Military Personnel in '81, while he was running from indictment from the Federal Government, and show that the persons he trained were later actively involved in assassinations in Central America and controlled by an Intel Agent who would later make large sums of money selling ballistic vests to the government, and who was in direct connection to a drug runner who ran an illegal ranch and airstrip to support actions in violation of Boland I and II. And to tie these elements into a drug czar of the White House of the early seventies and show ties to some of them in the early sixties to military clandestine operations that could lead to the JFK Assassination...
Sometimes research goes beyond paranoia and deals with realistic issues that can only be overcome by maintaining an insurance policy of proof that keeps the wolves away...
Al
-
I agree with Paul.
I think a lot of blame for the morass in Vietnam falls squarely on Robert Strange McNamara.
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for JFK. I knew he was a crook years before many Forum members discovered it. (I read "A Texan Looks at Lyndon" in 1964.)
Tim,
You certainly came out of left field with this one. Care to explain a few things here? What was McNamara's motivation for the war in VN. Hell, he didn't even have an intel or military background prior to being named Secretary of Defense.
JFK was a crook? He stood up to the intel community that provided false information to further their claims of increased aggression against Castro. He stood up to the Military and Intel in their lies of the current state of affairs in SE Asia and decided to pull us out. He was a crook for calling them on their lies?
The fall of Vietnam did not result in the spread of communism. Allowing Castro to remain in power did not jeopardize the security of the US. He was not a crook, he was an intellectual who had the foresight to understand that we could co-exist.
Lets be realistic about who the bad guys were and are.
Al
-
Al-- JFK was going to pull out of Nam. He knew the South Vietnamese would have to carry the battle themselves. But if you're looking for a culprit , don't look at Kennedy. It is no secret who the must carry the burden of Vietnam, and it isn't just Johnson. Robert Macnamara was the bright, shining lie of Vietnam. Blame him.
Paul,
I don't blame Johnson, nor am I so shortsighted to blame McNamara. Decisions were made througout the VN war due to poor or corrupt intelligence. The issue here is the immediate turnaround in dealing with SE Asia, immediately after the assassination. Don't you find that a little odd? What spooked the White House into committing to a cause that JFK was in the midst of pulling out of in a matter of a few days after his demise?
Al
-
Why would a plot to kill JFK be necessary if the conspiracy was as all powerful as described throughout this forum? Why not let the masses believe in the power of the president, while they (the conspiracy) pull the strings, you know, like the Wizard of Oz, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"
Paul,
As a 22 year veteran LE Officer, I have a tendency to look at motive. In a case that has gone unsolved as long as this one, the motive takes roots and shows what transpired after the fact that would not have if the assassination would not have taken place.
Considering the mood in the White House in late October toward SE Asia and the NSAMs produced regarding it. While it is clear that JFK had reservations as to the success of the Diem Government, he was still of the mindset that Diem supported that additional troops were not the answer as was financial and military supply aid was. They had to win their own war. Diem was assassinated at the beginning of November and the first of three planned attempts on the life of JFK came at the same time. Chicago on the first, which was aborted due to intelligence gathering and his trip cancelled. Miami on the 18th due to intel gathering and choppering him into the speaking engagement. And then the lack of intel with the success of the plot in Dallas. Regardless of how powerful those were that surrounded the presidency, do you think his intentions on pulling troops out of VN would have been reversed with JFK in office?
Al
The windshield holes
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
I do not agree that the location of the bullethole postulated as being the 'spiral shaped hole' is accurate.
The area that you are citing as the through-and-through bullethole appears to correlate with the location of the crack seen in ce350, and disputed in Fetzer's MIDP as created after-the-fact in a replaced windshield. It does not seem to coincide with the location of the infamous 'spiral' shaped hole, which is one item I am contesting. The SSH is much closer to the rear view than the comma shape you refer to in the Altgens 7.
- lee
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Lee, consider the angle of the photos before being too critical of windshield placement, when comparing Altgens 6 and 7.
Al