Al Carrier
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Posts posted by Al Carrier
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And some think there may have been shots coming from in front.
If the FIRST shot cxame from the rear, probably he should have accelerated away.
I think this has been discussed before but what did the car or cars ahead of Greer do? I guess if they were slow-pokes he could have sounded his horn or pulled out of line--but wasn't he waiting for Hill to climb on board?
Pretty sure this was discussed in a previous thread months ago.
I suppose the presidential limousine did not havea siren mounted? Sure seems like it should have, for emergencies, if it did not.
Tim,
The key here is to look at this from within the motorcade and not in hindsight. Armchair quarterbacking the mistakes made after the fact would leave a critic of the SS into believing conspiracies within at every angle. The follow-up car had a siren and sounded it. There were nine agents in the follow-up car that had a clear view of what was taking place and eight did not react in time. What would the gain be to have the pres. limo sound a siren. The lead car would have seen the limo lurch out of the standard route and speed and would have had to react from that with the siren or without.
Remember that the Dallas Trip was crucial to expose Kennedy to the public and overreacting to possible firecrackers (which had been detonated earlier in a more congested portion of the route) would have shown weakness that would have destroyed any positives of the trip. DP was an ampitheatre for confusing sounds and origins. Put yourself in Greer or Kellerman's place for once and also in the place of the follow-up car agents.
Hill responded heroically IMO and in unbelievable timing to the event. To criticize the others for not meeting that standard is unrealistic.
One cannot focus on what had happened after the fact but instead put themselves in the place of the agents during the time and heap on their responsibility areas of concern and then throw in the curve ball that was dealt to them.
Remember that they had just come off the congested and noisy portion of Main and in all likelihood let down their guard sub-consciously when they entered the quiet and nearly empty in comparison area of DP.
The plotters and assassins knew what they were doing. It was an ideal layout for them with everything considered.
Al
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Pat,
The speed of the Limo, on Houston Street till the turn on Elm Street, was low enough because it allowed Rosemary Willis to run in parallel of this one till a few yards down on Elm Street.
I believe the WC established that the car was going roughly 12 mph along Elm Street. It slowed down to perhaps 8 mph on the turn, which is slower than a man can run. I believe Greer testified that he was going between 10-15 throughout the whole motorcade. What I'm trying to establish is whether or not this was slower than usual. Thanks for your input.
Pat and all,
I have attended the SS Course on LE Protection and have taken part in numerous Presidential/VP/Candidate and spouse visits in forms of motorcade/motorcade supervision/Site/Site Supervision/Overnight Security/Overnight Security Supervision and both Airport/Airport Security Supervision. One can speak all they want about SS Policy and Procedure Guidelines but what it comes down to is adjusting to the last say which is made by the dignitaries inner sanctum. I have had from 3 to 5 days to work with advance agents on the security detail I drew and the last twenty-four hours and often the last three to four hours is crush time to make the late changing plans into a safe security issue. An example being the first president Bush changing his mind on running on an indoor track to an outdoor cinder track when he was less than an hour out. Talk about a scramble for both local LE and the advance team of the SS.
The motorcade speed is not set by the lead car but by the dignitary car. The lead car paces the distance of space between itself and the protected vehicle.
P&P on dignitary protection has not changed radically over the past fifty years. What has changed is the perimiter of responsibility of the SS and local LE on both standing and moving protection over the years.
I will be happy to comment on questions regarding this as long as it does not require issues that would compromise the security of dignitaries in the future. Generic issues involving the JFK Assassination would be addressed with generic responses in accordance to current practices.
What I am saying is I will reply with an inside look at this both through current practice and through a historic eye as the training I have taken dealt with trial and error issues on what has evolved.
I will also comment on tracking issues in accordance to speed for a sniper in the designated terrain of DP if anyone is interested.
Al
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Al, my point was that if you contend the military or whoever you believe orchestated the assassination would not use mafioso as shooters why would they use a minor mobster like Ruby for the cover-up? Certainly if the plotters were military there wer other mways they had to "silence the patsy".
Tim,
If you would read my previous posts here and and on Lancer, you would see clearly that I do not believe that those who set up the assassination of JFK were part of the cover-up afterwords. The plotters had one goal in mind while those who were in place after the November 1 and 18 plots were on the ready to if not stop the asssassination, were there to cover-up their dificiency in stopping it and to hide who was behind it. An intelligence breakdown allowed the plotters to succeed, but the investigators were quick to hide the fact that JFK was killed by elements of his own government.
Al
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Al, so Ruby was not involved in the plot?
Tim,
Let me answer your question with a question. Would you utilize the likes of Jack Ruby for such a plot?
Isn't it more likely the persons in place to cover up whatever was to go down utilized him to silence the patsy due to his connections with the DPD and his access to the building? A promise to get him out from under the IRS leans would go along way to keep his silence, especially since he really wouldn't have had to know anything, other than to silence the patsy.
Al
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Al wrote:
I find the mafia and anti-Castro militant theories inconceivable because I was once on the inside of such things. When it is time to play hardball, the government does not go with a second string that are radical and/or in it for their own reasons. They utilize persons they have trained and can control.
Al, does this not pre-suppose a "government" hit?
Of course my scenario assumes the genus of the plot was either the Mafia or renegade CIA agents, not some invisible government.
So if you are arguing that IF some invisible government force orchestrated the assassination it would not employ the people in my scenario, you are PERHAPS right. Certainly it is probable a "government" plot would not employ Ruby (as you suggest). Therefore, Ruby's involvement tends to disprove your theory, does it not?
There is, I respectfully submit, no evidence to support your premise who initiated the plot. I think the scenario I outlined above effectively reconciles the available evidence re who participated in the plot.
And by the way, if I had the mafia after me, I'd worry about it! Gee, one only has to look at the number of mafioso who met violent deaths to know that prudence would suggest increasing one's life insurance if the mafia is after you!
Tim,
First of all, the term "renegade CIA Agents" is rediculous. It is a term that has been used in this investigation for the past forty years to get the monkey off the back of the government. "shadow or invisible government" is also a term that should be utilized in fictional books and not for investigative purposes. Compartmentalization is the key to truely well planned covert operations and this compartmentalization is used an excuse to eliminate blame for whatever is proven to be true.
To believe a group of Sicilian thugs or agitated refugees were utilized in this is challenged by simply showing that this operation did not end in a goat screw attempt. It succeeded and has been hidden for the past forty-two years with only speculation flying in all directions. Some of the speculation has some merit and is realistic, while most is in left field and should be made into a James Bond fiction.
Your proof is making connections to events that are as far a stretch as it comes to what we see in this assassination. For those viewing this thread, keep in mind that Kennedy's protectors were aware of the two planned hits earlier in the month of November '63 and still were powerless to prevent the event from taking place in DP. They were able to quickly override the facts and cover it up. If this was the mafia or anti-Castro Cubans or combination of both, would we not hesitate to at least eliminate the players and planners? If it was Castro's Cuba, would it not be nothing more than a uninhabital stretch of land in the Carribean?
Sorry Tim, but I was doctrinated into the real world through fear and forced performance at the age of 18. I have since spent 22 years in law enforcement and see the world in a very clear and frightening light.
Al
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Tim,
I find the mafia and anti-Castro militant theories inconceivable because I was once on the inside of such things. When it is time to play hardball, the government does not go with a second string that are radical and/or in it for their own reasons. They utilize persons they have trained and can control. They carefully select these individuals at the outset of their careers and nurture them until they services are required. They may go their entire career without being utilized and often when they are, they cease to exist shortly after, unless they have taken out insurance by means of holding onto documentation and hiding it away in order to keep their existance. Shooting is only a part in such an operation. Ability to infiltrate, eliminate and extricate themselves from the show is a specialty. All the while they are writing their own ending without realizing it.
And Pat,
Rosselli was nothing more than a pimp to the mafia and the government. Col. Rosselli as he has been referred to through the Cuban Ops is as laughable as the Cuban Ops was in itself. The mafia was as strong as certain factions of the government allowed it to be for their own gain. Narcotics trafficing and money laundering was done through the boogey man mafia families in order to assist in paying for covert operations and laying blame in later on the same to take the heat off the true operatives.
There are many individuals out there that I would not want coming after me. The mafia hit men would be my least worries.
If you think I am blowing smoke here, then there isn't a whole lot I can say to change your mind on this forum. You might want to get in touch with Tosh Plumlee in regards to the true boogey men that I am referring to.
Al
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To Al:
Don't think I am telling tales out of school but there are those who believe that Frank ("the German") Schweihs, currently under indictment in the "Operation Family Secrets" case, was involved in the murders of Richard Cain, Charles Nicolletti, Chuckie English and the Spilotro brothers. And perhaps Johnny Rosselli.
I would consider someone who could commit numerous murders over a twenty year period and never be arrested for them a "pro", not an amateur.
Why you think professional mafia killers could not organize an assassination of the president escapes me. It is obviously not their ability to act as a sniper. So what is it that is so hard? Their ability to make an effective getaway?
Tim,
A hit in the sense you are referring to is nothing in comparison to an assassination as to what we see in DP.
You are mixing apples and oranges here and it is common amongst those who believe in the boogey man mafia. I was once and apple so I laugh at the orange! Take some rifle lessons and we will start there. Then make some contacts with some scout snipers and play your theory through them.
Al
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Al, again I need time to fully comment on your post but briefly for now:
I agree that the cover-up in DC was not linked to the assassination.
But surely the murder of Oswald was.
And as Bernice and I discussed, normally a mafioso will not engage in a murder without the consent of his boss. Plus, there is more than other adequate evidence to link Marcello and Trafficante to the assassination.
Was the mafia smart enough to pull off the assassination? IMO, clearly Trafficante was. Any mafia chieftain who can stay out of jail all his life AND escape a violent end must have a pretty good head on his shoulders. Also IMO Trafficante was a genious, an evil genius to be sure, but a genious nonetheless.
Tim,
First of all, Ruby was a street thug at best who had aspirations of being a higher level player. To consider him inside the mafia is a bit of a stretch.
I am not arguing that Santo was not a major player in the mafia and was hands-off to the other crime families and competetors, but that is a far stretch to link him and the likes of Carlos to an operation such as the Kennedy assassination. The only link is simply motive and a few who have come forward and said they had planned on hitting him. Even comparmentalization within the government's intel organizations would not have allowed this old man to carry this out and live to reap the bennies.
The breakdown here is simple. So many put this thugs on a pedestral and believe they are capable of such things as we are discussing here. What most do not understand is how difficult this was to accomplish from planning to achieving to walking away from it. It is only the well connected within the intel community who could drag this out and still achieve success and by utilizing professionals. And please don't lable mafia hit men and anti-Castro Cubans as pros.
There are very frightening individuals out there capable of such acts and are able to do so very smoothly. The scariest part of all is that your tax dollars pay their salary.
I have spent some time in N.C. recently and have tied up enough loose ends that I am comfortable with the players. The stagers is pure speculation, but I am very confident they do not hail from the mafia or the isle of Cuba.
Al
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Al wrote:
Can you provide evidence of successful operations that were orchestrated by Rosselli?
Unless I am wrong, in order to be a "made" member of the Mafia, Rosselli must have committed at least one murder. The fact that Rosselli was never convicted of murder demonstrates that he successfully orchestrated it.
Tim, I have no idea what that means. You have left me scratching my head so much on those two sentences that I should be in a Head and Shoulders commercial. Even if the two statements made any sense, then let me say this. What in the heck does a mafia hit and stuff in the trunk have to do with what happened in DP. There is no comparison to the MO and there are countless people out there who have committed murder who would not have began to understand what to do in such and assassination scenario, let alone succeed in it.
Al also wrote:
Can you provide any successful operations in the Cuban Project that involved the mafia and the anti-Castro Cubans?
No, proving my point that Trafficante was in fact on Castro's payroll. Otherwise, what is the probability that the Mafia could not accomplish the murder of the dictator of a small Caribbean island within three years? The only other reasonable explanation is that the Mafia was not the efficient killing machine it was reputed to be, but in my opinion there is plenty of evidence that indeed it was. (I reject, of course, any theory that Castro had a charmed life that allowed him to escape the plots.)
The other explanation is that the mafia was out of their element and they were not the big bad boogeymen that hollywood has made them out to be. A hit on a urban street and an assassination of a head of state has no comparisons. Lets not confuse murder with assassination or military elimination.
My question for you, Al, re your scenario of a military sniper operation: how does the Mafia fit into your scenario? Does not Ruby's involvement demonstrate Mafia involvement in the assassination?
The mafia does not fit into the assassination scenario and Ruby killing Oswald does not demonstrate mafia involvement in the assassination. What I believe so many get confused on in their logic is to tie the assassination plot in with the cover-up. They are two totally different animals from what I can tell. I believe we all can agree that there were two previous plots to assassinate JFK in November of '63 and that both were thwarted due to intel coming in in time to stop it from happening. The intel did not come through in Dallas, but the officials were ready to pounce to cover up the plot and lay the blame on the patsy. Both Chicago and Miami had their own patsy's aligned so it was not tough to figure out that Dallas would as well, if not as a patsy to lay the blame, but to draw initial attention to and make the connections to the plot scenario that the plotters wanted uncovered.
Just because Ruby had mafia ties does not bring the mafia into the game. Ruby also had a sick sister as a business partner and was deep in debt to the IRS. Consider his motivation when approached by the officials who were covering it up to silence LHO.
This only gets confusing when one tries to look at too big a picture and lumps all in together. One must break it down and see what the initial motivation was to pull off the assassination, who is the only logical personnel to achieve this act and then how and why it was covered up.
Al
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Shanet:
How specifically does the frame of LHO prove a government agency did it?
Re "the halting of the limousine" I posted in another thread that people, even highly trained professionals such as physicians, make mistakes in emergency situations, when the very nature of the emergency requires a split-second decision with no opportunity to reflect on one's training. I submit it is absurd on its face to believe that the conspirators convinced Greer to pilot a car at which bullets would be flying. We should be careful to question any proposition that defies common sense.
Re the alleged forgery of the autopsy is it then your contention that KFK's personal physician was part of the plot? Also would not a forged autopsy as you call it also be consistent with my theory that the government was intent on preventing a proof of a conspiracy not because the government was part of it but because the government feared the consequences if the conspiracy involved foreign nations?
Since all of your above points are explainable, or consistent with my scenario, perhaps you should go on, and offer one item of evidence that can ONLY be explained by a plot orchestrsated by a government agency?
Tim,
Maybe you can provide evidence of any mafia arranged hits where snipers were used? Can you provide evidence of successful operations that were orchestrated by Rosselli? Can you provide any successful operations in the Cuban Project that involved the mafia and the anti-Castro Cubans? Can you show me that the anti-Castro Cuban operations in the Cuban Project was nothing more than laughable? Just because they were arranged, does not make them realistic. Remember, we are dealing with the likes of an alcoholic loose cannon CIA Agent who was expelled to Italy and then went into the shadows of history, who made these contacts with the likes of the greater in death than in life Johnny.
From my background, it didn't take more than watching the assassination films to see that this was a military operation. It took more than a hostile Cuban revoloutionary with minimal training who could pluck a stationary bird at 200m with a scoped rifle. Hell, my thirteen year-old who has never shot a rifle could pull that off with a few hours of instruction, but would not be one chosen and successful for what went down in DP. This took expertise of a true scout sniper who could infultrate, stage and escape and hide the origin of the shot sequence, all along striking a moving target at varying speeds and angles. Taking the shot is not more than 20-30% of a success rate that is required for such an operation.
If you can track your suspects involved directly in DP for more than days after, you have cleared them. They would not be trusted to remain silent and we would not be having this discussion after all of these years. Simple operational guidelines.
I will agree with you on one thing. It is ludicrous to believe that Greer and Kellerman had anything to do with this. Who would ever put themselves within the circle of fire in a moving vehicle with foresight of what was to take place? Nobody!!!
Al
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I wrote:
I speculate that Ruby helps the plotters by obtaining DPD uniforms and photos of Dallas police cars (which Trafficante uses to create a bogus DPD car).
To which Mark Knight replied:
So....it's OK for Tim to speculate, but it's NOT OK for anyone else.
That message comes thru loud and clear, Counselor. You must live in an interesting world, one in which the rules you apply to others don't necessarily apply to yourself..
Given Mark's sarcasm, it is difficult to avoid replying in kind.
I speculated re what Ruby did to advance the plot.
I think it is beyond speculation that Ruby participated in the plot. Even if he was not aware of the plot before-hand, if he killed Lee Harvey Oswald to silence Oswald (whether Oswald was a conspirator or a patsy) Ruby was certainly an accessory after the fact.
Mark, you certainly do not contend that Ruby killed Oswald to save Jackie the agony of a trial? I thought only Gerald Posner thought that!
Tim,
Do you honestly believe that a member of the US Intelligence Branch would utilize second rate counter-revoloutionaries who could not even infultrate their own island to pull off such an operation as was seen in Dallas? And then allow then to go on and play second-rate roles in a second rate laughable operation against the likes of Castro. And to utilize mafia dons and pimps to set this up? Now they were reliable and trustworthy to keep it quiet? This same Intelligence person who had access to highly trained and expendable US soldiers would choose a second string if you can even call them that.
How about looking into US Military Personnel who died within 90 days of the assassination and checking for the following; Inconsistencies in the manner of their death as to the operation they were involved, inconsistencies as to link the operation they were involved as to the original operation and the lack of documentation to the original operation, inconsistencies and/or unheard of alpha-numeric MOS codes assigned to the person(s), consistencies in their personal info that made them ideal for being expendable. Major Lopez knew how to pick them. In respect to his widow and children/grandchildren, he shall remain Major Lopez.
Al
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If there is anybody with a copy of Turner Hinckles book 'The Fish is Red' published in 1981. Would they be so kind as to look up references to Saul Sague/Mario Tauler and Reinaldo Pico.
Any help would be great.
John,
I have the revised version "Deadly Secrets" and loaned it out to someone. I can track it down if it would have the references you need.
Let me know and I will do some looking as to who I loaned it out to.
Al
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Pat,
You also might want to get a peak at Rodney's criminal history before you get too emotional about his being fearful of the police. I am sure he is willing to allow it to be released to you since he has nothing to hide!!!
Life behind the camera is not reality. Sorry to burst your bubble on this.
Al
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The man who killed Nicole was "cut by his cell phone." I was a big fan of O.J.'s and didn't want to believe his guilt. He lost me, however, when he explained that the cuts on his hand and the blood in his car came when he got cut on his cell phone, which he'd left in his car, and that he walked all over his front yard talking to his girlfriend with blood dripping off his hand. Hogwash!
And Al, I'm sure you're right about what a pain in the A it is for cops these days, with everyone and their brother carrying a camera and ready to cry "brutality." But the final verdict on the trial involving Rodney King was correct, in that two of the men were guilty and two of the men were not. In Daryl Gates' book Chief he comes to the same conclusion. Gates cites a number of violations conducted by his officers.
Al, I believe you reveal your own bias when you say that Rodney King was violent and threw the tasers back at the officers. The tapes I remember watching showed that Rodney never fought back against the officers at all, but that he was scared for his life and was trying to run away. Briseno sensed that and tried to calm Rodney down by holding him down with his foot and talking to him. Actually meeting Rodney and spending time with him really taught me a lot about prejudice. Like most white people, I saw Rodney as a big black man capable of harm, and was intitially defensive of the police and their need to send a message to those resisting arrest. After meeting the man though my eyes were opened. You see Rodney King is a child. Approximately a ten year old. He could very well be mildly retarded. When he saw the cops he got scared and tried to get away, and the more they beat him the more he wanted to get away. Think of Lenny in Of Mice and Men minus the proclivity to kill soft furry things. Rodney was scared and the police just saw him as a threat, and kept pounding away to teach the "gorillas in the mist" what happens to them when they don't obey. Their motto is To Protect and To Serve, and all they could think about was serving up an ass-whupping. Now Rodney's face has been smashed in and one of his eyes is permanently crying. Tears trickle down his face every few minutes.. Literally.
I've worked with cops and respect them. My sister's long-time boyfriend is a cop and an ex-girlfriend and I helped him train rookies on a movie set. They were told we were a domestic violence situation that they had to handle, but in fact we had a former officer upstairs with an M-16 who was supposedly my brother-in-law. Somewhere in the middle of them separating us etc.. he would make a loud noise and the officers were supposed to then respond to that situation "who else is in the house" etc. A number of the trainees tried to impress the older officers by roughing me up when they first came in the house. Even though they knew I was an actor, they threw me against walls, threw me to the floor, put me in painful fingerholds, etc... Since I knew what was coming, I deliberately tried to make sure the "brother-in-law" got these guys. By the end of the day we'd dropped 17 policemen. They were so busy showing off for the other cops they didn't notice the bullet casings on the floor, or the cocaine on the coffee table. Some of the cops were very nice and wanted to calm us down and discuss our problems etc. and even believed me when I told them the noise upstairs was our dog jumping off the bed. Some of the nice guys got killed as well. After two full days of this, I came away with a lot of respect for the dificult jobs cops perform on a daily basis. A year or so later one of the young officers from the station I worked with was killed by a teenage boy who'd broken into a stereo shop. The boy ran away and hid in an attic. A dog was used to track his scent. One by one fellow officers went into the attic to try and get the boy to surrender. Somehow each one fired once at the boy as he pointed his gun at them. I believe he bled to death in the attic with four different wounds by four different officers. No one really believed the scenario but he was a cop-killer so no one really cared. I'm pretty sure the officer who died was one of the men I'd helped train but I don't remember whether or not he killed my "brother-in-law" or my "brother-in-law" killed him. I'd like to think he killed my "brother-in-law."
Sorry Pat, but your are assuming I am showing bias when I in fact have seen the entire video which you obviously have not and are drawing uneducatated conclusions from them and labeling me at the same time. Go to the Caliber Press website and get the video on the Rodney King incident which shows the video in it's entirety and then we will talk on the same level here.
In my 22 years of law enforcement, I worked out of and then ran the training unit for eight of them. I am a certified Use of Force, Firearms and Baton Instructor. I got burned out in training and now am the watch commander on the overnight shift from 11p to 7a. I am a court certified expert in issues of use of force, firearms and ballistics. I am also on the Critical Incident Stress Debriefing Team for the state.
Al
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In my opinion OJ walked because the then DA was stupid enough to bring the case where OJ had ONLY black jurors. I watched much of the trial and felt he was guilty. I also aked strangers regularily, standing in the grocery store check-out and discovered that almost all whites thought he was guilty and blacks said he was innocent and "framed" so that verdict did not surprise me.
Dawn
As much as I wish you were wrong on this one, Dawn, unfortunately, you're right. The lawyer who tried the civil case, Petrocelli, tried it a number of times with mock juries and found that black females overwhelmingly voted for O.J., the evidence be damned. They just had this "feeling" he'd been framed. My sister was on a jury where there was an 11-1 hung jury, and the one juror was a black woman and the defendant was a black man. Same story. My sister talked with the prosecutor afterwards and found that it was a re-trial, and that the previous jury was also dead-locked, with one black woman as the hold-out. The prosecutor told her not to worry, though, as the defendant had tried to kill the judge in the first trial, and was convicted and awaiting sentencing on those charges.
Unfortunately, people of all kinds have a built-in bias. A blind spot. The Simi Valley jury who let the policemen off after they beat up Rodney King were either related to cops, or neighbors with cops, as Simi is the "Copland" of Los Angeles.
Pat,
Let's talk for a moment on Rodney King and look at it realistically. Then let's put police brutality issues into perspective with the number of cases charged realistically against officers v. the number of officers killed and assaulted while protecting the public.
Have you seen the entire video of the Rodney King Incident? I am not talking about the abbreviated version that the media released for the sensationalism of showing police brutality. If not, you may wish to view it before passing too hard of judgement on the officers. Was the King Case a case of brutality, you bet! It became brutality when the twelve plus officers who were not involved in the case stood by and watched instead of stepping in to take control of this violent individual by way of swarming the individual and controlling him with multiple officers to prevent harm to the individual or fellow officers. These individuals did not get charged for failing to lend aid, the officers who inflicted the strikes until King obeyed the commands were charged. He continued to try and get up. He was the one who pulled out the taser darts and threw them back at the officers. He was the one with the violent past and history of assault and resisting.
Why don't you do a search and determine how many officers have been rightously charged with brutality in conjunction with how many LEOKA stats there are in the past five years. (LEOKA if Law Enforcement Officers Killed or Assaulted). Keep in mind that these are the men and women who are out there risking their lives and having to make split second decisions to try and avoid litigation against them to protect the likes of you who are quick to scream police brutality. Please do not quote case law of the fifties and sixties to me. We have come along way since then and now the police are having to defend their actions against thugs like King and others.
LE now have cameras mounted in their vehicles to show that they are performing their job properly. They are not there as evidence in crimes. My agency investigates numerous accusations of police brutality and wrong doing through internal investigation complaints every year. Many state rediculous claims that the video shows never happened. We do not charge them with filing a false report as we do not wish to discourage others from bringing questionable claims to our attention. Instead we spent countless man hours investigating bull###t that never occurred.
I have a recent case I would love to speak about if you would like to hear it. As a Patrol Watch Commander, I get to deal with these weekly, wasting my time in order to show we are in the right and allow prosecution on the original charges.
Maybe you should walk the walk before you talk the talk!!!
Al
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Certainly agree with you about the OJ case and even how the losing attorneys made money from it.
Did you ever read Bugliosi's book on the failings of the prosecution in the Simpson case? It's devestating.
It is hard to understand how a man with a mind as sharp as Bugliosi's can subscribe to the proposition that Oswald was the sole assassin.
Tim,
Vince is overrated as to his sharp mind as he made his name through the same sensationalism that I am referring to and is using it to make a few bucks by standing by the safe side and prosecuting Oswald.
His statements on the OJ prosecution could have been made by a fisrt year trial lawyer, but he had the name to bring it to the media.
His prosecution of the Manson Family was deemed a sensational feat, when realistically, he could have sold the conservative jury in a time of acid induced hippies any story and they would have bought it to get rid of these low lifes.
The California Justice Sytem of the late sixties was still trying to control a society gone awry when today it is popular to be radical and immoral out there. Paris Hilton's slut video has made her a bigger than ever star and now her sleeze mother is even cashing in on cable.
Al
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Interesting that Al mentioned Blake. A good point.
It seems that it is hard to convict celebrities. Of course it may be because they have the funds to hire the best legal defense.
Not in all cases Tim and certainly not in Blake's. He was a second rate actor living off reruns at best. He received the level of a defense team that he did because of who he was and the media attention it would draw. Like sharks to fresh blood, they swarmed in and made a bigger name for themselves for a bigger payoff. Look at what the OJ dream team and the second rate prosecutors made through book deals and cable appearances since the OJ trial. What a sad world we live in.
Clark and Darden made big bucks after losing a slam dunk case!
Media sensationalism feeds the ignorant public! The sharks then draw off this and suck the system dry with their immoral greed. What ever happens to the victims and the justice they cry out for?
Sorry if I am getting melodramatic here, but I too get sick of what society has evolved into since '63.
Lived it in Central America under the unapproachable GHWB and continue to see the lack of justice today all over. Sometimes because of the power behind it and with this thread, the ignorance of the public who thrives on it.
Al
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I've got Max Taylor and Curt LeMay. Can anyone ID the others? (Greg Wagner)
Hi Greg,
Yep, Taylor front left, LeMay front right. I believe that is Gen. Earle Wheeler behind Taylor and Adm. David McDonald behind LeMay. At the back on the left could be Gen. John McConnell but I'm not 100% on that one.
FWIW.
James
Hi James,
The guy behind General Earle Wheeler (partially obscured by LeMay) might be General David Shoup (Marines). Hard to tell, but looks similar from the photos I've seen and he wore glasses. Nice photo, Greg--I'd love to see the one of a distressed Ike that you mentioned. A man of integrity, IMO.
James and Mark,
That is General David Shoup.
Al
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Well I quess The criminal justice system is no longer America. What with the O. J. trial and now the Michael jackson trial, all of you people that dont live in the United States can now see how thing operate in the the good old U.S.A. If you're black and rich you can get by with murder. Why, because God forbid we would accuse a Black man of committing a violent act in this country. I have worked in Law enforcement since 1985, And I will be the first to admit that I am embarrassed because of our criminal justice system. I don't want top sound like a racist, but I am sure if Al Carrier is reading this he will say the same thing I am saying. He may work in a city that is bigger that the one i work in, b ut I have worked in a ith that is bigger than Waterloo, Iowa. Al I know how big Waterloo is i was born and raised in Oelwein. But I've worked in Little Rock Ar. which is bigger than Waterloo and let me tell you things are different down South. But what has happened in California 2 times in the last 10 to 15 yearsd is ridicules, everybody and they're dog knew O.J. was guilty and the same holds true for Michael Jackson. The only thing that go0t Simpson off was his lawyer playing the RACE card. Just let a WHITE man try that. and the same holds true for Jackson. I am so sick of this that it almost makes me feel like turning my badge. After all what good does it do is the person you arrest for a crime, no matter how gui;ty the evidence shows them to be, if thjey walk at the end of the trial just because of WHO they are or WHAT they are......
I do want to apoligize to the forum for blasting off, but the frustration level is real high right now.
John move this subject wherever you see that it fits, I understand
Thanks for letting me vent!!!!!!!!!!
Mike
Hey Mike,
Excellent post and I could not agree more with you!
The criminal justice system does not break down with the street officers or the investigators in most cases, but when it gets into the hands of the elected officials such as the prosecutors and judges. They are easily influenced by the human rights radicals screaming the race card or the higher level politicians screaming to be careful of who you prosecute. In my 22 years of service as a LE officer, I have come to accept that we can only do our duty to the best we know how and let the politicos make their deals. I tell my officers to do their job and cut no deals. There are enough deals cut beyond us.
OJ walked because the jury had their mind made up before the trial started. The dream team fed them bull**** to ease what little intelligence they had into justifying their decision. Blake was a celeb and in California, it is obvious that a name and face means more than morality and justice any day. Jackson's die hard supporters lining the streets is a classic example. If a pedophile can be made out as a martyr, then God help California.
And the country calls Iowa "hicks". Ever watch Jay-Walking on The Tonight Show? What a sorry bunch of Americans. If you haven't been on the big screen or the tube out their, they are clueless to who you are. Wonder how a newspaper is ever sold!
Al
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I think that some credit must go to Regan for creating the climate that allowed Gorbachev to take the radical actions that he did.
I have to disagree some here with John that Regan had little success in curbing the Sandanista hold in Nicaragua. He financed terrorists such as Alarcon and brought in his own military terror specialists to disrupt the Sandanista Operations and inflict terror on the citizens of that country. It eventually brought it down. Now they are starving under their free form of government.
He did squeeze communisim out of the Soviet Union. And now they are starving.
We as a country are bent on Americanizing the world, and only take it half way. We assist in ridding regimes and communists governments that are not to our liking or workable, and then leave them to drown without an economy. Sound like Afghanistan? Our two options would be to finish the job and pour in billions into these countries and extend ourselves even farther than we already are with foreign aid, or let them be and live a co-existance. With what we are paying in foreign aid today to Americanize the world, we could send all of our children to college, free of charge. Hum, what is more appropriate?
Al
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I think the place was crawling with them.
Ron
I agree Ron. Based upon the number of 'rifle sightings,' what little there is in print based upon interviews, and some 'chatter' -- the direction I was led in says that many withheld their fire. ?
All just a 'crapshoot' really, but as for me, I don't like the Grate at the top of the underpass, the storm drains on Elm, or South Knoll, personally. I've never heard or seen an indication that anyone was located in those positions, while IMO it's fairly obvious that men have been concealed in the parking area [behind the fence], on the stairs, behind the retaining wall, at the pergola gardens and at the north peristyle - in the various altered films and photos we have available to study.
Worth noting - there is very little photographic material available as relates to the area of the Pergola gardens, either shortly before, during, or after the shots were fired. Very little on the turn to Elm, also, which would have covered that area.
- lee
Lee, if this was planned properly, the ideal shooting positions would have been at the greatest risk of exposure to the GP if they were not distracted away from them. In this case, vollies with originating shots from the rear with initial focus on the limo, would have kept all eyes and cameras off the south end. Considering the position of the cameras in the plaza, the south end of the underpass would never have been in a shot at the time of the shooting, and it was not.
Al
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having Officer Foster and his partner on the Elm Street side atop the underpass, their attention would be drawn to their right, which would be toward the north sewer grate origin. This is also extremely close to their positions.
Al,
Don't you find it significant that both officers on the overpass made up a long noisy freight train going by at the time of the shooting? Whatever their motive, this phantom train conveniently made it hard for them to see or hear anything.
Ron, I see this in either two ways. One, that their stress of the incident created a distortion of the time of when the train passed over and allowed them to convince themselves it was at the same time. Or two and more likely, they used this to cover for their mistake of being fixed on the happenings inside the limo instead of looking for the origin of the shots as it was occurring. Even with the latter, they were helpless to stop the assassination, but would have been of great help in proving multiple gunmen or even aiding in the their capture in the plaza. All witnesses at the time of the assassination, whether it be LE or citizens, developed a terrific tunnel vision at the time and was captivated by what was happening inside the limo. Their positioning, accompanied by this tunnel vision and the timing of the vollies allowed most to believe of a single shot origin and only three shots.
Also consider the pedestrian traffic from the railyard approaching the top of the underpass from that side, which would compromise their position.But a sniper would wait till the last possible moment to get into position. The pedestrians had already passed the sewer and were standing over Elm as the motorcade approached. The sniper would probably be already down in the sewer, so all he had to do was pop up when the time came. His spotter could have been the "cop" that Officer Mabra encountered in the railyard after the shooting (the "cop" who told Mabra he had been back there for about an hour and hadn't seen anyone; there is a hatless "cop" in one of the railyard photos). After shooting, the sniper could go back down and escape through the sewer system. The only problem is that there would have to be a moveable slat in the fence for him to shoot through, to be moved back into place before escaping. Unless there was a convenient hole in the fence that was probably not there before.
I agree with that Ron, but that is what we see now. The problem would be relying on this. If there were others approaching as the limo came into the plaza, this would have taken this origin out of the equation. The key to a canyon shoot principle utilizing a triangulation of fire is to put your ideal shot origin position in total contrast to the others who are starting off the vollies. With the TSBD and then the north knoll position, the north end of the overpass would have been in direct field of recognition to Foster and his partner. It would also have been in the field of view of those across Elm who recognized the shots being fired across from them on the north knoll.
Ballistically, you have the limo travelling in a left to right angle from this origin and the head wound concentrated on the right side side specifically, from front to back.I agree that the angle is still a problem, but it's less of an angle than from the Hatman position. I still favor the south knoll as the origin of the fatal head shot as you have proposed, but I can see a shooter from the north sewer too. I think the place was crawling with them.
Ron
The north knoll angle was incredible and the dramatic slowing of the limo would have created great difficulty in tracking the target, especially with a scoped rifle. The north sewer grate atop the underpass would have been more of an ideal angle, but the changing speed also created an elevation and azmuth challenge here where it would have created only a slight elevation issue on the south end.
Al
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Bernice, Robin and All,
My problem with the top north sewer grate would be the logistics of it, both as an area of exposure and ballistically. Consider that shot origins were coming from the north knoll and the TSBD and having Officer Foster and his partner on the Elm Street side atop the underpass, their attention would be drawn to their right, which would be toward the north sewer grate origin. This is also extremely close to their positions. Also consider the pedestrian traffic from the railyard approaching the top of the underpass from that side, which would compromise their position.
Ballistically, you have the limo travelling in a left to right angle from this origin and the head wound concentrated on the right side side specifically, from front to back.
Al
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Dr. Lattimer's skull test was his proof of a shot from the rear and it only proved that it could not occur. I will attempt to post it only to show this.
Let's keep in mind that all the damage was to the right side of the head. Impact and exit restricted to that region with the angle his head was facing shows only a flight path from left to right which would place the shot origin on the south end of the overpass/south knoll, as Sherry, myself and others have been showing.
The debris field within the skull cavity was minute in nature and was consistent with extrusions of lead out of the base of a FMJ bullet. An open based FMJ bullet will be squeezed upon impact such as this and the energy would compress the projectile and force the softer lead core out the base, leaving a trail of particles.
Al
Al,
I've been intrigued with the South Knoll direction for quite some time now. It does a good job explaining certain aspects of the wound/event that other theories do not.
I've always been bothered by the angle of entry from the TSBD not leading to orbital/facial damage -- especially placing the entry wound there the WC has it. I've often felt that Z313, if it came from behind at all, came in at a much flatter angle. These angles cause problems, too. The SS car, with the agents on the board, might produce angle problems for many of rear-shot scenarios; moreso for lower angle variants (2nd floor Dal-Tex, etc).
The traditional GK position seems to explain the back+left motion, but the obvious lack of damage on the left hemisphere of JFK's skull creates obvious problems here, too.
The questions I have about South Knoll shots are twofold. Jackie leaned forward and at Z312/313, at least from Zapruder's angle, appears to block certain angles from the south. The second question is how the dent on the limo chrome can be explained.
Frank,
In regards to the chrome indentation on the windshield framework, see my post #15 under the "Single Bullet Trials" thread in regards to high shot impacts in regards to the gravitational pull factor. Now what is still unexplained in regards to this is the lack of severing of the chrome covering of the steel framework. An unobstructed flight/full velocity impact at this range would have had enough energy to fracture the chrome, as opposed to denting it. A fragmented bullet would need something to hit and impact at this angle, so that should be ruled out as there is nothing there for prior impact and the angle is still somewhat direct. The only thing I can see is that the bullet may have skipped off the steel rod that the bubble top attaches to, over the driver's seat. This would have slowed the bullet as much as 30% in velocity, down to roughly 1300fps and caused it to lose it's stability and create a greater energy loss on impact.
In regards to Jackie leaning forward, there still would have been a clear shot at the midline to right portion of JFK's head as far south as some fifty feet left of the south end of the overpass.
Al
Speed of the Motorcade
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
John,
I will first address this and then move on to tracking and add issues of silencer/suppressor.
The military has taught through scout/sniper schools for some fifty-plus years and art that was developed during WWI that is called "canyon shoot". What this is is a technique that utilizes a far distant shooter without a good line but with an easy escape, to draw attention to their position while the nearer and more ideal shot origin fires from startle reaction to the first shot. This allows this shooter to get off the effective shot without drawing attention to their position. Persons lock in on what they first hear and focus on that sound and it subconciously overrides sounds immediately following. I have discussed this at-length both here and on Lancer over the past couple of years.
Tracking a target is greatly effected by less than ideal conditions, such as elevation, angle and speed. In the case of the 60' elevation of the TSBD, we are dealing with issues of gravitional pull factors as well as a target that is changing direction, elevation and speed as it proceeds down the plaza. A very difficult track. In the case of the Grassy Knoll or north knoll, we are dealing with a very close shot at a target that is moving at varying speed at an extreme angle. Again, in this case, a difficult track. As I have said time and again, the ideal origin would be from the south end atop the overpass or south knoll region after the elevation factor levels off and the target begins a near direct route toward the shooter. The previous shots have drawn attention to other locations and convinced the wits and protection detail of another shot origin.
Silencers is a poor term as it does extremely quiet the initial detonation of the bullet, but does nothing to quiet the bullet bow shockwave of a rifle caliber projectile travelling at velocities of greater than 1800fps. Depending on where the witness is, will have an effect on where the attention is drawn from the preceived shot origin. Not to mention the timing of the shot to other shot origins that would have a subconscious conclusion through recall on the part of the witness.
Al