Gary Murr
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Posts posted by Gary Murr
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Gentlemen:
I don't know if it is useful/relevant or not to your current discussion but the attached link will take you to, among other images, some interesting photo's of the original renovations done on the JFK limo by Hess et al prior to its delivery to JFK.
Gary
For some reason the first link wanted to jump to the last two slides in the presentation; try this link, hopefully it will start at slide "1".
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Hi Bob:
This is a possibility and one that I will bounce off of some of my contacts. The entire testing procedure this ammunition underwent is interesting and I do examine and explain this in detail in the forthcoming "Forgotten." Again I do not want to give away to much here and I apologize for this but there were two different sets of tests conducted with a sample lot of 2000 rounds, the first conducted by Western ballistics personnel in conjunction with the OSAAC - the Ordnance Small Arms Ammunition Center - these tests involving the results "specifics" of things such as fps, pressure readings, dry tests, wet tests, etc. The second set of tests were requested specifically by Western and involved what they termed as the "serviceability" of the ammunition in a variety of different weapons. These tests were not conducted by Western. The interesting thing about the test procedures is that the costs incurred were "paid" out of the TS1-2 project fund, a fund that remains, in the main, shrouded in secrecy. Nobody really knows just how many ballistics related projects eventually comprised this venture, and there are TS1-2 reports numbered into the 70's but one of its initial and lengthier expenditures involved the SCHV program - Small Caliber High Velocity small arms experimentations of the early years of the Cold War undertaken by individuals such as Gerald Gustafson. There is a lengthy chapter on this in "Forgotten" and curiously enough though the serviceability tests proved the ammunition to be more than "serviceable" there were "failures to fire", all of which were mechanical in nature and did not involved the construct of the 6.5mm WCC cartridge and bullet itself. Further comparative tests were recommended but none occurred and less than two weeks after this the first lot of one million rounds of ammunition underwent production at Western.
FWIW
Gary
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Robert:
One quick question for you; if frangible ammunition, particularly Carcano M37 Magistri was used as you theorize, and this theory is IMO not without merit, from where was this particular and specific ammunition obtained? Also, why not give the member of the IAA Forum credit for his bullet cut-away diagrams that you are using.
Gary
Hi Gary
You realize, of course, it is entirely theoretical on my part that 6.5mm Carcano M37 Magistri frangible range bullets were used in the assassination. That being said, I have been able to verify that standard 6.5mm Carcano ball ammunition was being made by the Italian government, right up until the early 1970's. It seems the Carcano rifles were still being used by the Italian correctional system until that late date. Also, as the M91/41 Carcano long rifle was a very accurate weapon, the Italian rifle team was still shooting it in international competitions right into the late 1960's. While it would make sense they would be manufacturing the frangible range bullet, for indoor target shooting, as well as the standard ball ammunition, I have been unable to make a real verification that any frangible range ammunition was made following WWII. This, of course, presents the very real possibility the cartridges loaded with frangible bullets would be twenty years old and, with the problems experienced with deteriorated Italian ammunition, quite unreliable by 1963. However, this problem could easily be overcome by pulling the frangible bullets from the Italian cartridges, and reloading them into new cartridges, such as the American made Western Cartridge Co. cartridges. At this point, the gunpowder in each cartridge could be precisely measured (more precisely than the factory would have) to guarantee each cartridge had an equal portion of gunpowder, thus guaranteeing greater accuracy. This last is, of course, one of the reasons why hand loaded ammunition will shoot much more accurately than "factory ammo".
P.S.
You're right, I should be giving credit where credit is due. However, I obtained that photo from a Google search, and did not actually visit the IAA Forum to retrieve it. Fascinating ammo though, eh? The cartridge next to the frangible cartridge is a Carcano armour piercing round, and beside that are three "guard" cartridges containing a tube loaded with individual balls, This tube, much like a bullet jacket, was extremely thin and often slotted lengthwise. Upon leaving the muzzle, this tube would tear apart, leaving the balls to fly through the air like buckshot from a shotgun. Great crowd control.
Hi Bob:
Thanks for the response and again I agree with much of what you have indicated herein. I have checked with numerous sources that I have been in contact with over the past eight years regarding the issue of precise manufacturing dates of frangible Carcano ammunition, sources both close to home [i.e. North America] and in particular sources in Italy. They are in agreement that post WW II production of this ammunition appears virtually non-existent and is considered today to be a "collectors" item of interest and scarcity. You are also correct in indicating that if, and it is to this point in time an "if", ammunition of this nature of Italian manufacture was used in the assassination its reliability would be reasonably called into question. I do agree that there would be nothing to stop someone from acquiring from somewhere frangible Carcano ammunition and reloading the bullet component into the 6.5mm cartridge manufactured by the Western Cartridge Company. And again you are absolutely correct to indicate that if this was done whomever did so would have to have a fairly concise knowledge of the powder "loads" needed to make this new hybrid work efficiently in the weapon [Carcano] of their choice and in particular the powder load used by the WCC.
Not to give too much away here, because I will be touching on some of these issues during the upcoming Lancer conference, but what I have discovered over the past eight years of research is that everything, and I do mean everything, about the 6.5mm MC ammunition manufactured by Western was unique, from the plain white folding boxes that held 20 rounds each to the powder loaded into the cartridge by Western. It was a powder unlike any other IMR powder of the times [i.e. the early 1950's] and a powder that as far as I have been able to ascertain was never used by Western again in any other military cartridge they manufactured after the completion in 1954 of the initial contract of the four million rounds. And it would turn out to be a critical issue. One area of my research that I continue to follow is that it appears that pressure test results conducted on the Western 6.5mm MC ammo failed to meet the standards set by the original contractor of this ammunition and for this reason this same contractor eventually rejected delivery of the ammunition. Pieces of information to buttress this contention have only come to me over the past couple of months and so it is a "fresh" lead, so to speak, that awaits more confirmation from currently what are two very different sources, one a relative of an individual involved in the original testing procedures and the other the transfer of thousands of pages of newly released microfiche records to digital medium by the historical branch of the U.S. Army's Joint Military Command.
Gary
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Robert:
One quick question for you; if frangible ammunition, particularly Carcano M37 Magistri was used as you theorize, and this theory is IMO not without merit, from where was this particular and specific ammunition obtained? Also, why not give the member of the IAA Forum credit for his bullet cut-away diagrams that you are using.
Gary
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Tom Neal:
"This bullet allegedly passed through JFK's neck, JBC's Jacket, shirt, undershirt, chest, undershirt, shirt, jacket, jacket sleeve, wrist, trousers, thigh and struck bone. Yet no organic material was present on CE-399?"
Hi Tom: Just a minor correction to your above quote: John Connally was not wearing an undershirt on November 22, 1963. This of course does not detract from the central point you are making - re: "no organic material..." found on CE 399.
FWIW
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Hello Tom:
The Purvis "tumbling bullet theory" - an expression I don't believe that Tom Purvis ever actually used - contained many nuances. The one particular theoretical aspect that Tom was able to recreate - and I stress that his writings on this subject matter like everyone who dare enter this morass are/were theoretical - was that Tom fired 6.5mm MC bullets manufactured by the WCC from his MC weapon through individual "live" branches of Oak the makeup of which was identical to the TSBD intervening Oak tree that sits in Dealey Plaza. This is an Oak that does not shed its foliage as the season's pass, unlike other types of Oak tree. Tom retrieved these cartridges after their transit of the Oak limbs and photographed the results. If I can find them - and it is a big if because I have not been into these materials for a number of years - I will post the colour images I was sent. The bullets thus retrieved were slightly flattened along their axis and lead did protrude/extrude from the open base of the cartridges - the open base of this ammunition as well explained elsewhere in this thread by Bob Prudhomme. My own opinion, and it is only that as I am not now nor have never professed to me a ballistics expert, is that the main problem with any discussion, theoretical or otherwise, that deals with the transit of any cartridge through anatomical structures, human or animal, is that no one can predict precisely what a cartridge or potentially its fragmented offspring will do during transit of an anatomical structure. I do not doubt the sincerity nor the makeup of the various arguments being advanced in this thread, most of which have as their foundation well argued lines of clarity based upon sound reasoning and historically retrievable examples. There is much in this particular thread that is of great importance and anyone interested in attempting to better understand the importance of the issue of just what caused the back wound is wise to read and absorb what has been written - but do so with an open mind.
Gary
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My, my, my - get out of the wrong side of bed today, did we? Correct me if I am wrong but I do not recall indicating in my prior posting that Tom Purvis specifically tested the "tumbling" aspect of the various nuances that make up the totality of his theory, did I? As for your knowing where my defense of the late Tom Purvis is coming from please enlighten me. And yes - I more than adequately answered your question regarding Robert Frazier and his measurements of 6.5mm ammunition manufactured by the Western Cartridge Company - you just didn't like the answer. You, "Traveller" [or is it Traveller II?]have been attempting to flog the idea, totally incorrect I might add, that the diameter of the 6.5mm ammunition in question was .264" on various gun board forums and elsewhere since 2011. The fact that you attempt to repeatedly paint a picture of Robert Frazier as some backwoods bumpkin who didn't have a clue as to how to measure any bullet, because he tried to explain to members of the Warren Commission just what these measurements were in terminology that was not metric, is pathetic. And before you go off on another Sasquatch hunt I will admit that I have unfortunately been unable to find all of my research materials including copies of Robert Frazier's notebooks, some of which was lost as a result of a flood in my basement several months ago. And finally, please indicate to me where anything I stated in my prior posting indicates that I, personally, am abetting or constructing some mythical effort "to place a shooter in [not on]the SE corner of the 6th floor of the TSBD." Hell, as far as I know there may actually have been someone in that area at the time of the event, shooter or not. I just wish I had your certainty that there wasn't.
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The late Tom Purvis' scenario on the events of November 22, 1963 were indeed "complex" and I nor others who knew Tom need not defend that which Tom wrote; if you are truly interested his writings they are available. I had the pleasure of exchanging correspondence with Tom on a number of issues for over twenty years and can agree with comments written in this thread by both Mark and Don - in particular Tom's unwavering conviction that the assassination and its drawn out aftermath were indeed the "results" of a conspiracy. However, regardless of the semantics of feigning reverence for the dead, I do find it rather interesting that the individual who appears to be the self-appointed ballistics and firearms expert of the Education Forum, an individual who as far as I know does not own a Mannlicher Carcano weapon nor possess any of the alleged ammunition said by officialdom to have been involved in Dealey Plaza, would find Tom's theoretical nuances of a tumbling bullet scenario, a scenario I might add that Tom actually tested, as entering the realm of "astronomical". Would it be fair to ask more "astronomical" than a "frangible" bullet of unknown caliber, fired by an unknown assassinfrom an unknown weapon from an unknown location at an unknown specific point in time along Elm Street - presumably from behind?
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Kenneth:
You are correct in your observations. The SMI - 952 stands for Societe Metallurgica Italiana [sMI], the manufacturer of the clip while the "952" component is part of the dating structures used, in this instance indication that this clip was manufactured in 1952. I have handled this clip at NARA and can attest to its slightly bent shape. Though the Day "note" is interesting my only trepidation with it is that the body of the document is typed, yet the date of "11-22-63" and Day's notes concerning the date and place of manufacture of the weapon are handwritten. You will also note that there are not stenographic notations on this document anywhere to indicate who or whom associated with the DPD actually constructed the note. I can also further indicate that I have rough notes constructed by a member of the FBI lab in which it is indicated that at some point in time, presumably while in the possession of the FBI Lab, this same clip went "missing." And while I am strictly going from memory, because I am currently no where near my research materials, I do not believe Robert Frazier during his testimony session regarding this specific weapon made any mention of this specific clip being with the rifle at the VFW Building during the Frazier testimony session.
Gary
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Thank you James for posting these images for me. As I indicated, though some members here may be familiar with these Allen photo's there probably are many who have not seen them. They do give the best view of the clip in the rifle as it is being transported from the TSBD by Day. Whether this clip was actually in the rifle as it was first discovered by Day and thereafter handled by Fritz is hard to determine, at least from the Alyea film clips. However, I do not think one can deny there is a clip in the rifle as it is being removed from the building.
FWIW
Gary Murr
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I wonder if either of the two local Dallas gunshops that carried the ammo supplied any officers (DPD or FBI or SS) with a "sample" clip?
Hey Chris:
As far as a I can ascertain, based upon my 8+ years of intensive research on this particular ammunition, I know of no instance in which these specific clips were offered up for "sale" as a separate entity. Understandably Italian manufacturers such as S.M.I. produced literally millions of these clips over four decades beginning in the late stages of the 19th century. I have acquired during my research over 1000 copies of various popular American "gun" magazines spanning 1951 thru 1968 and I know of no add placed in any of these magazines which indicate the clip in question for sale as a separate item. Many "distributors", including Sam Cummings and Interarmco, sold 6.5mm Mannlicher Carcano ammunition of Italian make "complete" with the clips included. There is evidence which suggests that many of the Italian soldiers who used the Carcano during WW II considered the clip as a "throw-away" item, particularly during the heat of battle. The clips were manufactured in various metals, including brass and steel, and I have found in my minor collection of 22 such clips that those manufactured from brass are somewhat more prone to pliability than those made from steel. And while I agree that in theory the clip should be ejected from the Carcano weapon once the last bullet is chambered, they have been known to jam and stay in the weapon. I may be wrong but I do not know of any specific instance in which this failure to eject did occur in any of the testing procedures done with C2766 - the alleged Carcano of the assassination event. On the other hand I also cannot specifically state that anyone, including the FBI, used the clip said to have been found in/with the weapon from the sixth floor of the TSBD, during these same test procedures. I can tell you that I have handled this brass clip at NARA and it is slightly bent; whether it was in that condition when collected by the DPD is not known, at least to me.
FWIW
Gary
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Thanks for the prompt response, Chris. But actually neither of these sources are supportive of a claim that Oswald possessed 6.5mmMannlicher Carcano ammunition manufactured by the Western Cartridge Company and that he specifically had one of the 50,000 boxes [1 million rounds] that made up Lot # 6000. Indeed there is absolutely no proof that Oswald ever purchased or owned 6.5mm WCC MC ammunition. The Frazier quote regarding the muzzle velocity testing done at the NRL on December 2, 1963, refers to the only two lots of this ammunition that the FBI possessed, ammunition that they had acquired via their Springfield Field office and members of that staff who visited the WCC in East Alton, Illinois. As for the Mary Ferrell link to the C309 and C310 boxes of ammunition, these were two boxes acquired by the FBI from dealers in the Dallas area who actually handled this specific ammunition, John Thomas Masen [C309] and John M Brinegar [C310]. Masen had "pulled" some of the original WCC bullets from lots of this ammunition he had purchased and replaced them with "soft-point" hunting bullets.
The bottom line is that the FBI were never able to ascertain and/or prove that Oswald ever owned/possessed/purchased any 6.5mm Mannlicer Carcano ammunition, of any manufacturer, American or European.
Gary
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"Note: the box displayed is ammo that is 3 lots (#6003) away from Oswald's purported ammo - lot #6000."
Hey Chris: Do you have a source for the above quote - i.e. that "Oswald's" ammo came from WCC Lot # 6000?
Gary Murr
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Hi James:
I will send you some images later today or over the weekend of this particular aperture. I have photographs of this area of the Connally shirt which I had taken at NARA in 1999. I also acquired some images from the Austin archives that you may have not seen.
Gary
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This is sad news. I exchanged correspondence and telephone conversations with Gary on many occasions over the past 30 odd years. He never failed to answer any questions I may have had or denied any help I needed whenever I asked.
R.I.P.
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One should also be aware in reading this bumped thread that the WCC did not make 6.5mm Carcano ammunition that was "loaded with...bullets that were .264" in diameter." As I believe I indicated elsewhere in a thread on this forum, the 6.5mm Carcano ammunition manufactured by the WCC, and in particular the bullet component, was constructed utilizing specifications from Italian ballistic drawings/schematics supplied to Western by the U. S. Army Ordnance Department, diagrams acquired by the army as part of the massive quantities of "paperwork" confiscated by Allied forces during their liberation of Europe in 1944, 1945. I possess 60 rounds of this ammunition, from three different lot numbers, and the average bullet diameter size is just slightly over .2677".
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16 - 6
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Attached link to an article pertinent to this thread - a good read for those who have not seen it before, and a good re-read for those who may have forgotten. And as the article's author indicates, he did have occasion to "gripe" with Larry Sturdivan.
Link: http://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/Breakability/Breakability.htm
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Oh, I think you know the answer as well as I do. In fact, I've seen you discuss this several times. No matter, the whupping begins with or without your cooperation.
Every single thing relating to JFK's wounds (and his clothing) indicates that ONE bullet, passing back to front, went through JFK's upper body.
...Bruising of pleura.
...Bruising of lung.
...Entry hole for a bullet in the upper back.
...Clothing fibers pointing OUTWARD in the front of the shirt. (I'd love to hear a reasonable excuse from the CTers to explain this one. And if the word "fake" could be avoided, it would be refreshing.)
...No bullets in President Kennedy's body.
But let the "whupping" begin, Big Bad Bobby. You know it all, after all. So who WOULDN'T quiver in their boots at the sight of Robert Prudhomme coming after them with a C7 vertebra under his arm?
Refresh my aging memory for me David, but who specifically indicated that the "clothing fibers" pointed "outward in the front..." of John Connally's shirt? And when/where was this observation recorded?
Gary Murr
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I would beg to differ as to who placed the various diagrammatic points of "entry" and "exit" on the five diagrams that make up Gregory Exhibit 1 for as it turns out these diagrams, as presented initially to Dr. Gregory and then later in the day on the same date, March 28, 1964, at PMH, to Dr. Shaw, were not constructed nor marked by either Dr.'s Shaw or Gregory. In truth these specific diagrams were constructed by SS SA Roger Warner, re-traced and based, in theory, upon diagrams marked for him by Gregory and Shaw months before the March deposition sessions at Parkland conducted by Arlen Specter. These "Gregory" diagrams were manufactured by Warner and/or members of the SS staff in conjunction with a request initially placed by David Belin. You are correct, the written notation "R.R.S." was placed on Gregory Exhibit 1, Diagram #1, by Robert Shaw. Indeed all of the "written" notations/corrections on these diagrams are the construct of Shaw, while the block printed changes are the handiwork of Charles Gregory. Shaw placed his initials and the re-drawn size of the wound of entry as he did in response to a request of him by Specter, the reason being that Shaw disagreed with the size of the entry wound as [re]drawn by the SS. It is only my opinion, but I believe that Shaw further outlined/sketched the border/margins of the scapula on this specific drawing in an effort to illustrate that the true point of entry of the wounding missile was actually closer to the governor's "side", a shallow, tunneling wound that passed through anterior/lateral portions of the latissimus dorsi muscle bundle before striking the fifth rib, tangentially, on the lateral/anterior mid-point border of that same rib. In essence, Shaw "agrees" with your proposition that the Governor had to have been turned, and turned rather far to his left, in order for the SBT to be "true," which of course it is not. To answer your original question; you and I both realize that bullets can do strange things once they enter a body. Any answer given to your question of course enters the realm of speculation. However, I would indicate to you that had a bullet entered as "pictured" on this Gregory Diagram, and was following a left-to-right path as is "officially" claimed, then the internal damage suffered by the governor would have been much more severe, indeed approaching the realm of fatal, depending upon which internal organs were struck and the effects of cavitation.
FWIW Gary
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Minor point, Bob; the entrance wound as depicted was originally placed approximately as shown on "Gregory Exhibit 1" by Dr. Robert Shaw, not Charles Gregory.
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Oh, mama, could this really be the end!
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Hey Tommy:
Throw me into the "normal" camp on this issue. FWIW.
Gary
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Hello Bob:
Unfortunately I am nowhere near my collection of Robert Frazier's lab work notes. I would like to consult these when I return home this evening before confirming as to whether or not Robert Frazier actually "measured the diameter..." of an unfired 6.5mm WCC cartridge and found the bullet to be 6.65mm in diameter. If you look at the testimony session from which this information is taken the initial response from Frazier on the question proffered by Melvin Eisenberg - "Could you give us a description of the contour of the bullet, and its length?" - Frazier volunteered the answer that the bullet possessed a "diameter" of "6.65 millimeters." However, Frazier followed this statement up by indicating a diameter, in inches, for the bullet in question as .267 inches, his use of inches I would interpret as a mathematical aid to those present in the room not familiar with the metric system. And of course .267 inches equates to 6.7818mm. This is followed thereafter by a question from John McCloy, directed to Frazier, asking Frazier to clarify his, Frazier's "diameter" as to whether or not Frazier meant "6.65 or 6.5 millimeters." Frazier's response to this query is interesting, to wit: "I was looking for that figure on that. It is about 6.6 - 6.65 millimeters." To me this would seem to indicate that Frazier is attempting to find/confirm the "about" metric diameter that he is "looking for" in his lab notes, or potentially the one spiral bound notebook that he constructed prior to this March 1964 testimony session from which this information is offered. [3H399-400] As soon as I find the time, I will find my copies of Frazier's notes and see if he made specific notations indicating metric vs "inches" figures.
Gary
Did somebody screw up?
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Sandy Larsen asked:
"What is that reddish-brown looking stuff seemingly painted on the paper bag."
I believe if you check he FBI lab file records you will find that employees of the lab basically used three different compounds/method processes in their attempts to find any latent fingerprints on "papers" or paper materials gathered as theoretical evidence in the assassination case, the TSBD bag included. These compounds were iodine fuming, ninhydrin, and silver nitrate. It is my understanding that all of these same processes, and in particular the combination of applied iodine fuming and silver nitrate, causes a discoloration of the paper, in particular with the passage of time. I had occasion to view the paper bag at NARA and can attest to the reddish discoloration visibly apparent on the TSBD bag.
FWIW
Gary Murr