Evan Burton

ON WAY TO FINAL PARKING PLACE, ROVER CHANGES ON THE RUN

In this instance, I don't know if Jack has once more failed to do his homework or is trying to be deliberately deceptive.

The image on the left (AS17-135-20542) was taken at 141 hrs 27 mins, at the SEP site during EVA-2.

The second image (AS17-143-21933) was taken at 170 hrs 24 mins, nearly 30 hours later, at the closeout of EVA-3.

During that time, well, I guess they might have moved some of the stuff on the LRV. It would be a shame to have spent all that time collecting samples and then not take them back with you.

Some of the points Jack has raised about the LRV:

1. The rake:

ALSJ -

169:23:22 Schmitt: Say again, Bob. You want that...(To Gene, having reached the gate) I don't have a scoop, I don't even have a rake.

169:23:28 Cernan: They're both gone, huh?

169:23:29 Schmitt: Yup.

[Jack's EP-2 "locator" - AS17-143-21924 - shows that the rake and scoop were gone at that time. A comparison with AS17-135- 20542 suggests that the extension handles came out of the mounting brackets. Those are shown most clearly in AS17-146-22296 which was taken at the end of Station 6. At 169:38:29, they will confirm that the extension handles were lost, that it was a failure of the mounting brackets that caused the losses.]

[schmitt - "A bunch of Okies going across the countryside, dropping stuff right and left."]

2. This is the Lunar Seismic Profiling Experiment (LSPE), which contained explosives. No need to take unused explosives back. See here.

3. See 1.

4. Sample container bags. The samples have been transferred to the LM and the spare bags discarded.

5. The fender:

170:01:00 Schmitt: I will. (Long Pause)

[AS17-143- 21932 shows the final Rover parking configuration.]

[Cernan - "I sit here (looking at the picture) and swear that I parked the Rover with the wheels straight. That's the final parking? Well, we're behind the LM and it's about the right distance."]

[Schmitt - "Why doesn't it have a fender?"]

[Cernan - "I took it off. Both of them. I took them both home."]

[At some point before he goes back to the LM, Gene will remove the replacement fender - which is now at the Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum in Washington. He will also remove the rear section of the left rear fender - which is now on display at the Johnson Space Center's Visitor's Center.]

also:

170:19:48 Cernan: Okay; let me get one parting shot (photo) one of the finest running little machines I've ever had the pleasure to drive. (Pause)

[Gene takes AS17-143- 21931 to 21934. One of the best of these is 21933. Note Gene has removed the replacement fender and, from the left side, the rear extension. One seismic charge (LSPE) remains in the transporter. Gene will deployit at the west end of the SEP antenna array at 170:24:16]

6. That's the LRV frame, Jack. The frame is in shadow.

7. Jack must have cut the top off the antenna when he did one of his infamous 'crop jobs'. It's clearly there in AS17-143-21933.

Here is a good diagramme of the LRV and it's equipment:

LRV details (diagramme from Press Kit) from the National Air & Space Museum

The background:

Once again, the similarity of backgrounds has fooled people. In 20542, the point Jack has indicated is NOT the same point as he has indicated in 21933. The point indicated in 20542 is actually to the left of the position Jack has marked in 21933, and can be see in the FULL frame. In this case, Jack has cropped it out.

Here is a comparison of the horizons. The top two images are the ones Jack has used (20542 and 21933), joined together, then compared with a pan shot of the horizon. The bottom image is from a pan shot taken at the LM, and consists of AS17-147-22493 through AS17-147-22497.

Comparison of AS17-135-20542 (HR), AS17-143-21933 (HR), and AS17-147-22493 through AS17-147-22497 (cropped, annotated, scaled)

The pan shot I have used above is taken from just north of the LM. You can see it in the full pan (known as

Jack's 4 o'clock EVA-1 LM Pan).

I've also made a 'locator' mud map so you can get an idea of where the images where taken from, what they where looking at, and what features you would expect to see.

Now, some things to note.

In AS17-135-20542 & AS17-143-21933, we are EAST of the LM.

You can see the LM in 21933.

In 20542, it is hidden behind the LRV. Have a look at 20541 (the preceeding frame), and you can see the LM. Both frames are taken from the about the same location, but in 20541 the LRV is still at the LM, just about to leave.

The reason that the LM appears to "move" (as Jack is bound to question this) is because they are taken from different perspectives with regard to the LM. They are both about 150m east of the LM, but remember that those "hills" are over 10km away.

EDITED TO ADD:

1. Don't forget to check the ALSJ, check all the pans I have referenced, and the individual images I have presented. Make sure for yourself what I am telling you is correct.

2. The "editor comments" - the LRV was NOT parked "several kilometers away from the LM". It had to be 137m (that's METRES) away from the LM in order for the LRV camera to be able to pan and catch the ascent stage launching.

170:20:41 Parker: Roger. We're satisfied with the TV, Gene. We're ready for you to take the EP number 3. (Pause)

[Gene is now on CDR-33. In Houston, Fendell tells the Flight Director that the distance is "well over" the 450 feet (137 meters) he needs. An analysis of mission photographs of the LM taken at the final parking place and at the SEP deployment site indicates that Gene parked the Rover about 158 meters from the LM.]

Here is another comparison of the horizon:

BEST TRACKLESS ROVER

The image is a close up of the fender repair to the LRV, and was taken at about 143 hrs 46 min.

The fact that sometime the LRV tracks are very light or difficult to spot is well documented. Add to that the lack of view of the surrounding area, and it's difficult to refute this one. I looked around for the preceding images, and there were some low-res ones showing the LRV in the distance, but nothing you could use to see any tracks.

Until I found AS17-138-21039.

21039 was taken at 143 hrs 11 min. From the ALSJ:

143:11:27 Cernan: Take a picture of that and then your locator, I'll get it.

[Jack's down-Sun "before" is AS17-138- 21038 and his "locator" to the Rover is 21039 (scan by Kipp Teague). In the "locator", notice the disturbed soil around Boulder 1. Note also, Jack's footprints farther to the right. This was his path back from the Rover with the rake. Wessex Cleft is in the far distance above the Rover.]

Although it was taken 35 mins before the colour image Jack has shown, the LRV has not moved in that time.

Read the ALSJ Geology Station 2 section between the two times and you'll confirm that the LRV was not moved between the image below and Jack's image (AS17-137-20979):

AS17-138-21039 (annotated)

ANOTHER TRACKLESS ROVER

Well, Jack is right. In this image you can't SEE any LRV tracks immediately behind the wheels (actually, you can make out what are probably tracks of the right rear wheel in the high resolution pic - but there is insufficent detail to call it proof).

However:

If you look beyond (past) the LRV in the high resolution version of AS15-88-11901, you can see the tracks where it was driven up. They go from left to right, and start curving towards the camera at the right hand edge of the image.

Gee, if only we could see further right of that.

SURPRISE! The image was taken as part of a pan sequence. I can't find a hi-res version available right now, but if we look at 11903, you CAN see where the LRV did a 180 degree turn to finish in it's final parking position.

AS15-88-11903 (cropped)

See the tracks just to the right of the frame?

So why can't we see tracks? Well, you don't always see them. Sometimes it's the light, sometimes the astronauts walk over them. In this case it is probably that the LRV is quite light (it has been emptied of all the samples and been moved to it's final parking position). The ALSJ notes this:

[Frame 11895 is a down-Sun and shows the LM with the ALSEP in the background. Jim is north of the spacecraft and is facing south. In frame 11896, Jim is facing north and, in 11897, he has moved in toward the LM. Frame 11899 shows the front of the Rover and the open LCRU covers. The TV camera is pointing north. Frame 88-11900 shows the Rover console, Jim's seat, and the low-gain antenna. Note the damage the seat has sustained as a result of Jim's getting on and off while wearing his backpack. Frame AS15-88- 11901 shows the Rover at it's final parking place. Brian Lawrence notes that the left-front fender is missing. At the back, we can see the rake, but neither of the tongs. the dust brush in on Dave's seat. What appears to be a 16-mm magazine is on Jim's seat. If so, it is probably the one Dave removed from the 16-mm camera after 167:27:19. Ron Creel has provided a summary ( 1.3 Mb PDF ) of the fender extension losses that occurred on all three Rover missions.]

[Keith Wilson writes in 1999, "In a 1990 communication, Jim Irwin told me that Dave Scott left a small red Bible on the LRV. Andy Chaikin also mentions this in his book 'A Man On The Moon' - Andy states that the Bible was left on the 'control panel'. I believe that the Bible can be seen edge on in AS15-88- 11901 propped up against the drive control handle. Irwin also told me that he left several objects on the Moon but not on the LRV."]

[scott, from a 1999 communication - "Keith is right on! What a great scan -- really clear! And the Bible can be clearly seen leaning against the T-handle; exactly where I placed it. Your troops (meaning the ALSJ Team) are awesome."]

[Kipp Teague has produced a detail scan of the bible.]

[Frame 88-11902 shows the back of the Rover and, beyond it, the card listing the fallen astronauts and cosmonauts. Frame 88-11903 shows the astronaut/cosmonaut memorial. Note that the Rover tracks in this area do not seem to be as dark as those near the ALSEP. Mt. Hadley is in the background. Frames 88- 11904 to 11915 show Mt. Hadley and the Swann Range, and 11916 is centered on Silver Spur. Frame 88- 11917 shows Mt. Hadley Delta with the bright crater on the east rim of St. George Crater at the right edge. Note that the Rover tracks in the foreground are not appreciably darkened. Frame 88- 11921 shows St. George Crater. Notice how washed out the details are compared with the pictures such as 85-11376 which Dave took during the SEVA at about 106:53:45. The final frame, 88- 11925 shows the LM. Jim is nowhere in sight and may be hand-carrying gear up to the porch.]

SAME LEM, SAME LIGHTING, BACKGROUND REARRANGED

No, it isn't. Once more Jack selectively crops a portion of an image to give you the impression that what he is saying is true.

AS17-140-21370 is shown in the previous post.

This is AS16-116-18579:

AS16-116-18579

Now what Jack fails to mention is that the Apollo 16 photograph were part of a pan sequence - and so was the Apollo 17 photograph.

Apollo 16

165:55:46 Duke: Let's see, that's about plus-Z. About (garbled) feet or so. (Garbled) down.

[Having completed his review, John turns his checklist page back the way it was, probably to review CDR-28 and CDR-29.] 165:55:59 England: And, fellows, we're going to do a (site) hand-off (from Honeysuckle to Madrid) in a few minutes. We may lose comm for a second.

165:56:08 Young: (Answering Tony) Okay. (To Charlie) Okay, Charlie. You got the ETB (un)loaded, right?

165:56:12 Duke: Yes, sir.

165:56:13 Young: The big rock bag is on the Hand Tool Carrier. And...(Pause)

165:56:30 Duke: (Taking AS16-116- 18574) Ah, the old U.S. flag. Looks colorful. (Pause)

[John leans over his seat to check the circuit breakers as per CDR-28.] 165:56:42 Young: "Bus A, B, C, and D, close." (Pause) You already got those, huh, Charlie?

[John stands and looks at his checklist.] 165:56:54 Duke: Yeah, I had to turn on the TV for them and it's on external, so...Okay, Tony, pan's complete.

RealVideo Clip (2 min 47 sec)

165:57:02 England: Okay. (Pause)

[Charlie's plus-Z pan consists of frames AS16-116- 18563 to 18591.]

Apollo 17

163:56:11 Parker: Okay. And, Jack, are you going out to take the pan now?

163:56:16 Schmitt: Well, as soon as I finish up here, I'll do that.

[Gene mounts a map on the holder to the right of the instrument panel. As per LMP-5, Jack put the map on the seat when he was unloading the ETB.] 163:56:20 Parker: Okay. And after you take the pan, we'd like you to retrieve the cosmic ray experiment. They're expecting a little solar storm, and before the rain gets on the cosmic ray experiment, they'd like to retrieve it. We'll leave it in the ETB during the traverse.

[if the solar flare is weak enough that the ETB offers adequate protection, the exposures experienced by the suited astronauts will be minimal.] 163:56:40 Schmitt: Okay, (I'll do it) after the pan. All right.

163:56:42 Parker: Roger. It will just be a nominal retrieval.

163:56:44 Schmitt: Okay, the gate's locked.

163:56:44 Parker: ...and we'll put it in the ETB. Copied the gate.

163:56:50 Schmitt: Okay. (Long Pause)

[Gene finishes mounting the map; Fendell pans clockwise to follow. Off-camera, Jack will take a 12 o'clock color pan with Gene's camera. These frames are AS17-140- 21359 to 21380.]

Now, let's have a look at the "object" Jack is pointing to:

Comparison of AS16-113-18310 and AS17-147-22477 (Cropped, enlarged to 200% of original sizes)

They hardly look the same to me. Different terrain.

Once again Jack is wrong.

ADHESIVE TAPE GIVE-AWAY

Firstly, Jack has accidentally given the wrong frame number.

The left-hand image is AS17-140-21370.

AS17-140-21370

Notice how there are sun flares in the image, and the direction of the sun.

The other image ID is correct.

AS17-134-20469

In this image, again notice the sun flare, and the direction of the sun.

The "fill" lighting is has been explained before - it's the light reflected off the astronaut's EMU suit. The EMU is white, and is designed to reflect light (to aid in cooling). This has been demonstrated in numerous Apollo images and the effect demonstrated by people in this forum.

APOLLO 17 PANORAMA MISMATCHES

This is a good example of why you have to do your research when being shown images.

The top image is a17.1682021_dmh, a pan assembled by David Harland. It is made up of frames AS17-142-21811 to AS17-142-21823, as Jack has said. What he has NOT told you is that it is NOT A FULL 360 DEGREE PAN. It is a section of a17pan1682021, which is made up of frames AS17-142-21798 to AS17-142-21824. It was taken from Station 1 (see map below) at time 168:20:21.

The other image is cropped from a17pan1223224, made up from frames AS17-136-20744 to AS17-136-20776, taken from Station 9 (see map below) at time 122:32:24. The section Jack has shown is about from frame 20751 to 20776, as Jack has labeled.

What you need to do is compare the FULL pans to each other, and get direction sorted out.

The directions I have used are roughly correct. The sun is in the east, shadows are cast to the west.

Now look at the comparison of the full pans with directions indicated.

Comparison of a17pan1682021 & a17pan1223224

The features don't exactly line up because the images were taken from different locations. Looking south-west at the South Massif, the viewpoints are about the same. Looking west, however, there is a slight difference. This is because Station 1 is a little over 2 km further south than Station 9. An object that is due west of Station 9 is actually west-northwest of Station 1.

In general, however, everything matches.

Here is a traverse map of Apollo 17. Station 9 is 2300m to the north-east of the LM landing site, near Shakespeare & Van Serg craters, and Station 1 is 1100m south-southeast of the LM landing site near Steno-Apollo crater.

APOLLO 17 TRAVERSE MAP

MOUNTAIN BACKDROP STRETCH?

Firstly, the top image (A) is a crop from Gene Cernan's Station 7 pan (a17.1662658_dmh), assembled by David Harland. An alternative pan assembly is available. The pan is made up of frames AS17-146-22339 to AS17-146-22363. The object that concern us is called the South Massif, and is contained in frames 22351 to 22353.

Image B is a crop from Gene Cernan's Station 6 pan (a17.1653338_dmh), again assembled by David Harland. Again, an alternative pan

assembly is available. The pan is made up of frames AS17-140-21482 to AS17-140-21509. South Massif is again visible and the frames that concern us are 21491 to 21493. Please note that this pan was taken from right-to-left, so that 21491 is the right hand side of South Massif, and 21493 is the left hand side.

Station 6 & 7 are both located to the north-east of the landing site, on the edge of the NORTH Massif, and are seperated by about 500m. SOUTH Massif is about 8-10km away from each station, and they have a similar viewpoint of it, looking south-west.

Now, when I first saw Jack's images, there seemed to be no doubt that at least part of one image had been "stretched". I don't know if there were ways of doing this back when the images were first taken in the 70's.

What I knew though, were two things:

1. The images were PANORAMAS, assembled by contributors to the ALSJ; and

2. When contributors assemble pans they sometimes "stretch" portion to make a seamless pan that is visually pleasing.

Please note that it is the contributors who do this, not NASA. When you read the ALSJ they will often have comments from the people saying what they had to do to make a pan look so good.

Armed with this knowledge, I thought the best way to compare the images was frame-by-frame.

I am concentrating on the South Massif, because that is where the "stretching" seemed to occur.

22351 shows the left hand edge of South Massif, and is paired with 21493.

22352 shows the central section of South Massif, and is paired with 21492.

22353 shows the right hand edge of South Nassif, and is paired with 21491.

The images I have used come from the ALSJ and the Apollo Image Atlas.

Because they are of different sizes, I have had to scale one image in the comparisons to fit the other. Note the use of the word SCALE, not stretch. In scaling, all parts of the image are constrained proportionally. If I make it 15% wider, it also becomes 15% taller.

So let's look at the results:

Comparison of AS17-146-22351 and AS17-140-21493

Comparison of AS17-146-22352 and AS17-140-21492

Comparison of AS17-146-22352 and AS17-140-21491

Comparison of AS17-146-22353 and AS17-140-21491

As you can see, when we do a frame-by-frame comparision, the images match.

The pan that Jack has shown apparently WAS stretched, but it was to make a better looking image. I've sent an e-mail to try and contact David Harland; let's see what he can tell us about the pans.

As always - don't take my word for it. Do the comparison yourself and make up your own mind.

P.S. And once more, the Editor makes inaccurate statements and hints at coverup. Perhaps Jack could speak to the Aulis editor and inform us which pan frames were done out of sequence; the Editor simply SAYS that it happened in the Apollo 17 images without offering any evidence to that effect.

I just wrote the following on 9/11 on the JFK assassination forum, so I will repost it here as to my feeling on this whole subject.

QUOTE(William Kelly @ Mar 5 2006, 08:20 AM) *

After all, how many coincidences does it take to convince you to believe in a conspiracy?

UNQUOTE

While there is no set number, I think one can use this rule of thumb: enough is enough. The tragedy is that there is never enough coincidences to convince some people of a conspiracy. This is what is so maddening and frustrating in arguing with people about 9/11. There is no end to it. The official 9/11 conspiracy theory involves one coincidence after another, but people who debunk 9/11 "conspiracy theories" (by defending to the end the official one) don't take this into account. What they do is take each coincidence, no matter which one you bring up (e.g. Flight 77, or something, just coincidentally hit the one recently reinforced section of the Pentagon) and offer a "rational" explanation for it. Then the same with the next one (e.g., it just resembles controlled demolition, three buildings no less), and the next one (e.g., the general in charge of the Pentagon's National Military Command Center just coincidentally arranged to go somewhere at exactly 8:30 am on 9/11, leaving a greenhorn in charge when the crashes started and an ensuing "air threat conference" was bungled, with the general showing up again after all the planes had crashed). Explaining away each coincidence, and failing to see (whether by design or delusion) that the whole structure is put together with coincidences, is a classic example of not being able to see the forest for the trees.

Ron

Something to think about when you talk about "co-incidences" is the Reason model of air accidents. Named after Professor Reason and sometimes known as the Swiss Cheese Model, it basically says why air accidents occur. Think of our defences against an accident (training, procedures, physical equipment, etc) each being a layer of swiss cheese. These defences aren't perfect, and have 'holes' in them. When all the holes in our defences line up, then an accident occurs. If the hole in even one layer in moved, a straight path through the holes is not made and the accident does not occur.

These 'holes' are equivilent to your "co-incidences"; sometimes a number of co-incidences do actually happen. If a major disaster had NOT happened, those co-incidences would not have been noticed. It's only because the 'holes' lined up that we notice them.

Also do a search for Boeing's 'chain of events'.

LEM VIEWS ARE 90 DEGREES DIFFERENT, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF THE PANORAMAS?

At least the first part of Jack's title is correct.

The panoramas were taken from roughly the same distance from the LM, the first west of the LM, the second from north-northeast of the LM.

The first is a16.1655702_lw.

The second is a16pan1431346.

The flag appears different because the first image is taken from west of the LM and the flag is NORTH of the LM (i.e. to the left in the image). In the second image, taken from the north-northeast of the LM, the flag is still NORTH of the LM but appears more to the right of the LM because it is a PANORAMA.

Stone Mountain looks about the same because it is over 4km in the distance and the images are a PANORAMA.

Also, the sun & shadows. In the top image, the LM is casting a shadow in front of it (i.e. west).

In the second image, the LM is casting a shadow to the right (we are north of the LM, so right is west). No change in shadow direction.

Set up an image like this for yourself. Go out to a flat area with hills / mountains at least 4 km away. Get a large object (say, a car), and place a flag (or something similar) in a predetermined direction from the car. To reproduce the image, place it north of the car with hills to the south.

Move to the west of the car, and take a pan sequence.

Move to the north-northeast of the car, and take a pan sequence.

Put the pan sequences together, and compare what you see on the images that YOU took with the images shown.

FRUGAL USE OF SAME PROPS - AGAIN?

Once more, I'm not sure what point Jack is trying to make. He doesn't actually SAY anything, or make a particular claim.

Well, the LMs in each image are taken from a similar viewpoint. They are both J-series LMs (the J-series of missions were extended stay lunar landings, meant for scientific research).

The Editor's Comments mention the diagonal line - or supposed lack of it.

Have a look at the high resolution version of AS17-140-21370. You can see the strap. Like Jack, the editor is wrong.

The Apollo 15, 16, and 17 LMs were all roughly the same.

Have a look at Apollo Maniacs to see the differences between each missions LM, and a very good description of the LM in general.

SAME BACKDROPS - DIFFERENT FOREGROUNDS

Firstly, my reply to the Editor's Comment:

See my previous post concerning Apollo panoramas. NASA could not have foreseen that hoax believers would make a cursary study of the backdrops and not appreciate that panoramas were taken from differing locations. The hoax believers has been proven wrong, well and truly.

******************

Now, I really do tire of having to say the same thing over & over again. The pans are from different positions. The horizon detail will remain the same because it is distant.

If I am little sparse in some detail, I apologise. I'm just going to use the basic details provided by the ALSJ. If I don't provide details of exactly which frames were used, it's because they haven't immediately provided them. I can provide them by reference to the Apollo Image Atlas, and will do so if required. If you wish to question what I say, or require clarification or more detailed examination, just ask and I will be happy to provide it to the thread.

*********************

Firstly, here is the Apollo 16 Traverse Map so you can see where the astronauts travelled and can identify some of the major features they saw.

The images Jack has provided are crops from various Apollo 16 panoramic images. They are cropped to show the same background details. I'll use numbering from 1 to 5, 1 being the top image, 5 the bottom.

1. This is from a16pan1242334, the first Station 2 pan taken by Charlie Duke at time 124:23:34. It is made up of images AS16-109-17811 to AS16-109-17827. Charlie took this pan near the rim of Spook Crater. The "hill" in the background is Stone Mountain, approximately 4 km distant.

2. This is from a16pan1221232, known as the ALSEP pan, taken by Charlie Duke at time 122:12:32. It's made up of frames AS16-113-18349 to AS16-113-18369. Charlie took this while John was using the "thumper":

[Twenty-one small charges - single-bridgewire, Apollo standard initiators - are mounted in the base plate of the thumper. John will fire these charges at 15-foot (4.57 m) intervals along the geophone line to generate seismic signals. The pattern of arrivals at the three geophones will give investigators information related to the depth and velocity structure of layers in the regolith. Figure 10-1 from the Preliminary Science Report shows the preliminary results of the experiment. Vp is compressive velocity, the sound speed of acoustic waves in soil. The Apollo standard initiators were used for such purposes as opening valves and severing connections between spacecraft stages.]

[Charlie bends his knees and pulls his head and shoulder back to raise his aim. He starts his ALSEP pan with a down-Sun picture, AS16-113- 18349, which shows the magnetometer. Prior to 122:13:16, he takes eight or nine more pictures, turning slightly to his right between frames.]

[Duke - "On 18349, you can see how, if you look down-Sun, it's very bright. And zero-phase it just washes out completely and you can't even see the details in the surface. But, just away from that, you can begin to see the rocks and the footprints and stuff like that that were on the surface. Good view of the sort of the slope of the terrain on the horizon. It looks likes it's sloping down from north to south. And that was a little more pronounced than we had expected."]

[Frame 18350 shows the magnetometer.]

[in 18351, John is visible beyond the foreground rise. He is about 10 meters west of the central Geophone and about 55 meters west of Charlie. The RTG is in the foreground.]

[The RTG is also visible in 18352, 18353, and 18354.]

[Frames 18355 and 18356, show the south face of the Central Station.]

[Frame 18357 shows Smoky Mountain in the background. This is about the point in the pan where Charlie stops so that John can fire his 9th shot.]

[Jones - "In training did you take pans and develop the film to see how you did?"]

[Duke - "We practiced all the photographic sequences that we had. Every time we put out the ALSEP in training, we would go through not only the experiments deployment but we'd go through the photo layout and sequence so we knew what to do and it was second nature."]

[Jones - "Did you have film in the camera."]

[Duke - "Yeah. Uh-huh. And then they would develop it and we would look at it to see how we screwed up and if we were in focus and make sure the horizon was right. And that gave us a good idea of just how much we had to lean back and how to point the camera. It was a single-reflex lens and you just sort of had to, you know, point right and try to get it. What you thought was right. And it turned out pretty good. We tried to get it so that we had just a little horizon. We didn't want to get too high and get, you know, this black sky. And that took some practice but, by the time we got going, we were okay."]

[in AS16-113- 18367, Stone Mountain is the hill on the right and Kenesaw is probably the hill beyond it to the south. Frame 18368 shows the two large craters that Charlie describes at the western foot of Kenesaw. Ravine Crater is east of North Ray Crater and is shown in Figure 6-4 ( 648k ) from the Preliminary Science Report. Dome Mountain may be the peak beyond and to the left of Smoky Mountain as seen in 18357.]

Their location is about 100m east of the LM.

Once more, Stone Mountain in the background.

3. This is known as John's Station 1 Pan, There is one version, a16pan1240222, but the version Jack has cropped from is an alternate assembled by Dave Byrne, a16alt1240222. It is a pan from the far side of Plum Crater. The frames are AS16-114-18415 to AS16-114-18432.

In Jack's crop, you can see the edge of Plum Crater on the left of the picture. The astronaut in the image is Charlie Duke.

We know it was taken from Station 1, and the ALSJ says:

Frame 18422 (scan by Kipp Teague) shows the Rover on the far side of Plum Crater.

In 18423 (scan by Kipp Teague) and 18424, we see Charlie watching John from the site where he took photos of the lineations he has been describing. He used the scoop for scale.

In 18427 (scan by Kipp Teague), 18428, and 18429, John catches Charlie as he moves south to examine some angular blocks.

In 18428, Charlie is kicking soil ahead of his left foot as he goes. South Ray Crater is in the background.

So once again, it is Stone Mountain in the background, over 4km away.

4. This pan is from the pan mentioned above, a16pan1240222.

The ALSJ tells us:

John takes a pan on the opposite side of Plum Crater from the Rover. A VR version is also available. Assemblies by Mike Constantine, who has used two of the frames that show Charlie, who was moving while John was taking the pan. The TV record shows this sequence quite clearly. Dave Byrne has assembled a different version using only one of the Charlie frames.

It is the same scene from different images taken from the same location. Compare Jack's pan 3 and pan 4. Here the details are identical, because they were taken from the same spot.

5. This is a16-1193346lw taken at 119:33:46, and known as the LM 4 O'clock pan. Charlie Duke took this pan from a position 20 meters southeast of the LM. Beyond the LM, we see John Young sitting on the Rover, preparing to make a test drive after deployment. The frames are AS16-113-18313 to AS16-113-18330. Assembly by Lennie Waugh.

Okay, so let's review this:

1. Taken from Station 2

2. Taken from about 100m east of LM

3. Taken from Station 1

4. Taken from Station 1

5. Taken from about 20m southeast of LM.

All are pan sequences taken during EVA-1 with Stone Mountain as the object of interest in Jack's images.

All have Stone Mountain at least 4 km in the distance.

(3) and (4) are similar because they are taken from the same location.

The others have different foreground features because they are taken from different locations!

Please, do a DETAILED examination of the images, refer to the ALSJ, note what frames are pointed in which direction, note WHERE they are taken from, and decide for yourself.

(entered in error)

ROVER FENDER REPAIR ANOMOLY

Here Jack does not even try to claim an anomoly - despite the title. He simply says that a "big deal" was made over LRV repairs on Apollo 17, but "no fuss" was made over the same repair on Apollo 16.

This is pretty simple; NASA was concerned in each case. The LRV could not operate efficiently with a broken fender. The wheels sprayed lunar dust over the astronauts and over the LRV. The LRV battery section had to be dusted regularly because dust could cause loss of reflective properties and subsequent overheating. Loss of the LRV meant that many planned visits to lunar sites would not go ahead because there was a 'walkback' limit applied to wherever they went. They had to be able to walk there & back well within safety margins of their oxygen supplies. The loss of these sites would affect the geological knowledge gained from the exploration.

When a fender broke on Apollo 16 (John Young caught it with a geologist's hammer when walking past), it was a concern and a repair was made. This allowed the planned schedule to be maintained.

When the fender broke again on Apollo 17, the controllers & astronauts were miffed; basically the same accident had happened again! Yet again, a repair was made and the mission continued as planned.

Concern was felt in each case, because of the implications of not having the LRV.

THE SAME PHOTOSHOOT?

More grasping at straws.

Firstly, the section reflecting light was in about the same position in each image; it was NOT on the LRV pallet base, but the foil on the LM outer surface. This was just above the LRV pallet. Look at the previous images to confirm this.

Secondly, Jack seems surprised that a section of foil should happen to reflect light in both images when they are taken from a similar position. I say section because I do not believe it was EXACTLY the same area that is reflecting light in both images - merely similar.

Another comparison:

AS16-118-18894 / AS16-116-18578 (Hi resolution, cropped, scaled)

APOLLO 16 LEM ANOMOLIES

This is Jack simply grasping at straws. He has used lots of lines and numbers to show nothing - and he is even wrong with his own annotations.

Jack said:

S1 has a thickness shown by T, about 10"

HUH? Even Blind Freddy can see that S1 is about four times thicker than T.

Anyway, let's cut to the chase and examine Jack's claims.

1. LRV too thick to be R1.

Jack has said:

T2 shows thickness of alleged LRV, about 18"

T3 shows actual LRV thickness, about 40"

Now, forgetting that Jack is using "about" for his T3 and not actually confirming the dimensions involved, his T2 is a distance that the LRV package extends out from the LM. He makes no allowance for the fact that the bulk of LRV fitted INTO the Quad. See the previous images of the LRV being fitted to the LM.

Here is another, just for good measure:

AP15-71-HC-684 (Hi resolution, cropped, reduced to 70% of original size)

2. White lines show that camera views are identical.

No, it shows they are similar.

3. Rod H should only be in bottom photo.

Wrong again. The "rod H" is NOT part of the MESA; it is a section of the LM landing struts (the MESA did not have any rods or struts on it).

I've done a comparison here of AS16-118-18894 (top right), AS16-116-18579 (top left), AS17-151-23201 (middle), and AS16-118-18897 (bottom).

Comparison of AS16-118-18894 / AS16-116-18579 / AS16-118-18897 / AS17-151-23201 (all high resolution, cropped, annotated, various images have been scaled)

4. Much lighting is identical.

This is where Jack has cheated a little bit; he has changed to colour / contrast / brightness to suit his needs - but forgot to tell you. Let's have a look at the ORIGINAL images:

AS16-118-18894 (unaltered)

AS16-116-18578 (unaltered)

Not quite the same lighting, is it?

5. Flag and US decals cannot move right together.

Same as I have said before - In 18578 (after landing), the MESA bay has been opened and we are looking at another flag/US decal, placed INSIDE the MESA bay. The decal we saw in 18894 is on the outside of the MESA, which has been opened and folded down - we can't see the side that was shown in 18894.

APOLLO 16 LEM CHANGES IN MID-AIR

Two quick points, Jack.

1. It's a LM, not a LEM (ask me if you want further explanation regards this).

2. It's not mid-air (to be a pedent); perhaps mid-space is more correct.

That does not change, however, the error Jack has made.

In the top image (after undocking from the CSM but prior to landing), the MESA bay is closed.

In the second image (after landing), the MESA bay has been opened and we are looking at another flag/US decal, placed INSIDE the MESA bay. The decal we saw in the top image is on the outside of the MESA, which has been opened and folded down - we can't see the side that was shown in the top image.

The "editor" also notes:

Editor's Comment: A distinctive feature of the Apollo 16 decal is the diagonal line across the US flag (as in the lower picture). However, this diagonal line (lanyard) is absent from the top image when the LM was allegedly in flight.

Well of course it is absent from the top image. The MESA hadn't been opened yet! Is it really that difficult to understand? Closed - no lanyard; open - lanyard. Lanyard INSIDE the MESA bay.

PORT OR STARBOARD - NASA REFUSES TO ANSWER (continued)

Some more images of the LRV & the LM.

The Apollo 15 LRV undergoing a 'check fit' to LM-10:

AP15-S71-31409

AP15-71-HC-682

AP15-KSC-71P-299

Here's one from Apollo 17, showing the LM after the LRV was deployed (the stowage is to the left of the LM. You can see the "ladder leg" on the far left. That's west. The LRV was stowed in QUAD 1, or southwest of the descent stage.

AS17-137-20873

Here is a diagramme showing the mechanism that held the LRV in Quad I:

Courtesy of www.myspacemuseum.com

The 'saddle' and 'telescoping rods' can be seen (it's marked with an arrow) in the earlier crops showing disturbed soil where the LRV had been unstowed.

PORT OR STARBOARD - NASA REFUSES TO ANSWER

As I explained before, no wonder NASA won't bother to answer all Jack's claims. There are at least two reasons:

1. They'd need an entire section to continually answer his "claims"; and

2. The information is available in a multitude of sources if Jack would do some research.

Okay, to begin, where was the LRV stowed on the LM?

This NASA diagramme shows everything you need to know.... and it's the diagramme for Apollo 16:

Apollo 16 LM descent stage contents list from www.myspacemuseum.com

Notice the axis marked FORWARD (+z). That's what they often call the west side of the LM. Notice how it says "Ascent Stage Forward Hatch Location" - in otherwords, the egress hatch.

When we start talking about stuff on the descent stage, they talk about "quads" rather than east, west, etc.

As you can see from the diagramme, the LRV is stowed in QUAD 1 (southwest portion of the LM descent stage).

Notice also what is stowed in QUAD IV (the northwest section of the LM descent stage) - the MESA pallet.

MESA stands for Modularized Equipment Stowage Assemply. That's where they kept tool, lens, all sorts of lunar equipment.

Here is an image of the MESA on the LM mockup from Apollo 11:

AP11-S69-31585

Notice how it is to the LEFT of the ladder (Quad IV).

Here is an image of the Apollo 16 astronauts practising LRV deployment on mockups:

AP16-72-HC-57

Okay, so the MESA is to the LEFT of the ladder (QUAD IV) and the LRV is to the RIGHT of the ladder (QUAD 1).

Now go back and have a look at the hi-res image of AS16-113-18342

See below the flag, and to the right of the LRV? You can see the MESA. Compare that to how the LRV was stowed.

AP15-KSC-71PC-415

See how it looks stowed?

Here are some images of the Apollo 15 LRV prior to fitting on the LM:

AP15-KSC-71P-206

I'll show some more LRV images in the next post; the forum won't allow too many images in a single post.

Now, remember Jack's images of the "LM on cables"? AS16-118-188894? Have a look at a crop from that:

AS16-118-188894 (high resolution, cropped, enlarged to 150%)

What's that? It looks like a stowed LRV, just like in the previous images! You can even see the US flag decals that were placed on the LRV fenders.

Jack has said:

"Further, all footprint activity associated with assembly of the rover is shown on the starboard side"

Now, I believe the image Jack has shown (and not labelled) is AS16-116-18578. Let's have a look at sections of that image, and the next in the sequence, AS16-116-18579:

AS16-116-18578 (hi resolution, cropped, annotated, reduced to 75% of original size)

You can see the LRV tracks leading away from Quad I.

AS16-116-18579 (hi resolution, cropped, annotated, reduced to 75% of original size)

Again, you can see tyre tracks, disturbed soil from all the activity, lanyards from the LRV deployment, packing materials associated with the LM, and part of the LRV deplyment package (a frame) on the side of the LM.

Now, despite the multide of photographic images, documentation, video, and witness accounts, Jack still claims the LRV was in Quad IV. There are no records, images, or documents that show the LRV was in Quad IV - except for Jack's own claim. Don't you think that sounds a little delusional?

JUMP SALUTE 2

Again a false assertion is made.

The shots are NOT taken with a tripod because they are not exactly the same.

I'll use the low-res images from the ALSJ to show how they are different:

AS16-113-18339

AS16-113-18340

AS16-113-18341

AS16-113-18342

In the first two, the photographer (Charlie Duke) has not moved position but you can see his upper body (where the camera is mounted) moved a little, accounting for the slight differences in shots.

They then changed places.

In the second two, you can see the photographer (John Young) also stayed in position but his upper body moved a little between shots.

Perhaps Craig or someone with a little more experience than me would like to make a composite moving GIF image, in order to really hightlight the movement.

Now look at the rock shadow Jack has pointed out:

Comparison of AS16-113-18339, -18340, and -18342 (high resolution, cropped, annotated)

You can see the first two are virtually identical. That is to be expected, as the photographer did not move.

The last crop is slightly different. Look at the movement indicated.

THAT'S BECAUSE THE PHOTOGRAPHER WAS IN A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT POSITION.

A tripod was NOT used; the images were taken by two different photographers who stood in similar - but not the same - positions.

Jack is wrong.

JUMP SALUTE 1 - MORE WIRED ACTION

First I can refer you to here.

Once more, the images are NOT identical. Jack just crops sections out of both, then tells you that they are.

Look at AS16-113-18339 and AS16-113-18340.

In 18339, look on the left hand side of the frame and you can see all of the LM and LRV.

In 18340, the frame has changed slightly and the edges of the LM and LRV are missing.

He then says:

"Young appears to be dangling on a hidden wire, not in an action pose, since his legs are wide apart and his knees locked. A real jump would have the feet close together, and the knees flexed."

And how many lunar walks have you made, Jack?

The feet are wider apart than normal because the astronaut in jumping in reduced gravity. He needs to have good footing when landing because the PLSS backpack means he has a higher centre of gravity than normal. Jumping up that high in the reduced gravity is no problem, so there is no reason for his feet to be close together.

And why would the knee be flexed? That is exactly OPPOSITE of what you would expect. He is jumping up and the movement would leave his legs extended!

From Clavius.org:

"Neil Armstrong reported that he was able to jump to the third step of the lunar module ladder, which he estimated to be five or six feet from the lunar surface [Reports 11b, 89]. "I did some fairly high jumps," said Armstrong, "and found that there was a tendency to tip over backward on a high jump. One time I came close to falling and decided that was enough of that" [Ibid., 76]. Falling over backward would risk damaging the PLSS."

Jack also says there are no footprints in the first image: WRONG!

AS16-113-18339 (hi resolution, cropped, annotated, enlarged to 200% of original size)

The yellow arrows indicate his footprints.

His arm remains basically the same because he is saluting.

Curious reflections? What curious reflections? Please point them out. Same with shadows.

The visor reflection is basically the same because he jumped to basically the same height in each.

And Jack doesn't mention that there is television footage of Young making the jump.

From ALSJ:

Journal Text: 120:25:02 to 120:26:57. QuickTime Clip: (1 minute 54 seconds; 1.33 MB)

The television camera mounted on the lunar rover records the astronauts photographing each other beside the flag. Duke appears first, getting into position beyond the flag. Young walks into view and does a “Big Navy Salute” by bending his knees slightly, springing about half a metre off the ground, and saluting. They switch positions and Young takes Duke's picture. Duke returns to the rover, followed by Young.

Journal Text: 120:25:23 RealVideo Clip: (3 min 21 Sec) by Ken Glover

The astronauts take each other's pictures beside the flag. Ken Glover writes: “The RealVideo Clip has a frame rate of 15 fps. This clip was produced from a high-resolution AVI file which I captured from the VHS source, but the RealVideo clip itself was optimized for streaming over slow (56k modem) connections and is therefore somewhat degraded in terms of resolution. For students interested in analyzing John's 'Big Navy Salute', I have made a short, 2.7 Mb MPEG-1 clip of better resolution and at 29.97 fps, showing only the two jumps.”

How many more times will Jack be wrong?

DOING THE TWIST - APOLLO 16

Firstly, I'd like to address the editor's comments:

Editor's Comments: 1. Compare a similar scenario in previous Apollo 15 study: Doing the twist. (Which I have shown to be wrong - EB) 2. The usual definition of a panorama is that of a series of photographs, shot sequentially by standing and turning about 10 degrees for each shot, and NOT INTERRUPTING FOR OTHER PHOTOS. This does not seem to be the case for NASA. During his panorama research Jack White has found a number of anomalies, other than the visual problems he discusses within these studies. NASA still infers that these panoramas are the true representation of the lunar EVA sites. While NASA may wish to argue for poetic license in giving the public 'an idea' of the relevant lunar environment – these pictures were never initially presented as 'approximate, or idealised composites'. Nor are they today. Since it is quite obvious (from the similar conclusions drawn independently by both Jack White and David Percy) that these 'composite panoramas' are full of discrepancies, as such they cannot be considered the true record of their purported lunar locations. See also later notes concerning Apollo 17 panoramas.

The Editor seems to imply that there are interuptions in the pan sequences.

This is simply not true.

The first image shown by Jack, labelled AS16-107-17431/9, is a reduced section of a alternative pan image a16.1431346_ab.gif. The original (a16pan1431346.jpg) taken about 143:13:46 and called the "4 O'Clock LM Pan, Start of EVA-2". Charlie Duke took this pan from NNE of the LM at the start of EVA-2. John Young is beyond the Rover. The frames are AS16-107-17419 to AS16-107-17440, a complete sequence of pan images without interruption. The first frame, 17419, was spoilt by light. The pan was assembled by Dave Byrne.

The second image shown by Jack is labeled As16-113-18342/9, but it is actually a crop from pan sequence a16-1193346lw.jpg made up of AS16-113-18313 to AS16-113-18330, made by Lennie Waugh. Again it is an uniterrupted pan sequence. Charlie Duke took this pan from a position 20 meters southeast of the LM. Beyond the LM, we see John Young sitting on the Rover, preparing to make a test drive after deployment.

The Editor, like Jack, has no spatial awareness and has not actually researched the images.

So the first image was taken NNE of the LM. We can see the north side of the LM with the ladder (west) on the right, and the 'flat side (east) on the left. No problems.

The second image was said to be taken SE of the LM. I would say it was ENE of the LM. You can see the 'flat side' (east) pointing towards us.

Because of the change in position, the LM no longer hides some of the horizon detail in the second image.

Once more, Jack has not researched the ALSJ and been unable to tell that the images are taken from different positions.

Once more, Jack is wrong.

COMPUTER REVEALS CRUDE RETOUCHING OF APOLLO 16 LEM

This is where I ALMOST agree with Jack - almost.

If you look at the high resolution image of AS16-118-18894, you can indeed see (even without Photoshop) that the image has been "retouched".

That's the point on which I agree with Jack.

The motive, however, I disagree. In my opinion, the image has simply been 'cleaned up' to make it a better image. The background is all black space, so they have removed any imperfections in the image - NOT removed eveidence of a hoax.

Have a look at the low resolution image of AS16-118-18894 from the same site. This is a smaller version that has NOT be 'retouched'.

Also have a look at the version from The Apollo Image Atlas. This version has been, as the good people from the Apollo Image Atlas warn, heavily processed and should not be used for research purposes.

You can see the dust and compression errors in the images.

So we have a smaller, unprocessed image we can investigate.

"But" I hear Jack cry, "the smaller version won't show up the cables holding the LM!"

What? Isn't Jack the man who was able to spot an invisible 'wrecking truck' on the horizon about 300 metres away, and even identify what model it was from a catalogue?

Surely you should be able to see thick cables at a distance of 10 or 15 metres away!

No, Jack may believe NASA has altered the image for "nefarious purposes" but I think they have just made one version more presentable.

Of course, the only way to be sure is to have a look at the original negative from NASA. I sure Jack has done this, haven't you?

Let's just examine Jack's claims in a little more detail.

The image was taken in lunar orbit. There was no Earth in the background, no lunar surface, no landscapes - just black sky. Nothing to give anything away.

So why does Jack say the LM was on cables?

BECAUSE THE LM COULD NOT FLY, OF COURSE!

It could not fly, so it could not fly in space, and so logically images of it flying in space had to be faked, right? THAT'S what the cables were for!

The only problem with that assumption is that you have to account for the still images of the Apollo 9 LM in flight - as well as Apollo 10, Apollo 11, Apollo 12, Apollo 13 (after it was jettisoned), Apollo 14, Apollo 15, and Apollo 17.

Oh - and all the movie footage of the LM in flight during those missions.

No, it's very simple: yet again, Jack is wrong.

Craig Lamson also added:

Evan, just to add a side note on this one.

When I first looked at the image Jack questioned I too saw signs of poor retouching. From my experience retouching images for advertising, the retouching has the mark of a hard edge photoshop "brush".

So I decided to investigate further. Looking closely at the image showed to me what appeared to be scanlines made by a user scanning a print and tryine to lighten it. The CCD imagers in flatbed scanners do a rather poor job of producing pure black tones (dmax) without producing digital noise. This image is full of digital noise and scan lines.

So then I wrote Kipp Teague, who runs the Project Apollo website, and who according to the credits at the Lunar Surface Journal, also suppled them with the scan of thsi image.

His reply:

Craig,

AS16-118-18894 was scanned from a print obtained in 2000. The lo-res version on the site is un-retouched. Apparently when I prepared the hi-res version, I noticed the non-0,0,0 black levels in the scan, and did a

hurried job of attempting to correct this. I think I will re-request a digital scan of this image from Johnson Space Center.

Kipp

At 12:25 PM 4/1/2005, you wrote:

>Thanks for the swift reply.

>

>I agree that the die hard hoax believers are a lost cause, however I would love to clear this one up as

>the image in guestion is one of the very few that show the rover in its stowed position on the LM and its

>being dismissed because of what looks like retouching. Its amazing that someone could think, despite >ample evidence to the contrary that the rover was stored where the mesa was....

>

>But I would like to nail this one down.

>

>Thanks for your efforts.

>

>Craig Lamson

So ...the image was retouched to clean up a poor scan.

But the bigger issue is White's inability to even understand what side of the LM he is looking at. Sheesh, its not that hard.

DRIVING ON THE MOON - YOU GOTTA BE A BAD MOONBUGGY DRIVER IF YOU CAN'T MISS A POTHOLE LIKE THIS

The images, which Jack hasn't labeled again, are part of a pan sequence taken at Geology Station 2 at 122 hrs 38 mins during EVA-1.

There are a few versions of the pan sequence available from the ALSJ, but a nice one is:

http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a15/a15pan1223653mc.jpg

The images that really concern us are AS15-85-11435, 436, and 437.

High resolution versions of those images are available through The Project Apollo Image Gallery.

Before we look at the images, ask yourself: why set up this particular scene?

Jack would have you believe that the LRV never actually drove over the crater rim because it would have overturned.

In that case, the LRV was placed on the "set" and tracks were made leading to it. If you were supervising a "hoax", wouldn't this seem a little strange to you? Why not just drive the LRV onto the "set" around the crater, not through it? Why go to all the bother of lowering it onto the "set"?

It just doesn't make sense. The reason it doesn't make sense is because it was not done that way; the LRV drove to Station 2 exactly as recorded, and yes they did drive through the rim of that crater.

Now, let's have a look at those images. Remember to download the hi-res images yourself, and confirm what I am showing you.

Let's have a look at AS15-85-11435

AS15-85-11435 (hi resolution, cropped, reduced to 40% of original size, annotated)

You can see with the tracks in the foreground how Dave Scott actually tried to drive to the right of the crater. The left wheels actually went along the inside edge of the crater rim, not straight through the middle of it.

Here's an excert from the ALSJ for that time:

122:34:12 Scott: Hey, we could get to that fresh one, too, Jim. Hang on. Hang on. Digging in. (Pause) Okay. Boy, this'll give them a view. Oh my!

122:34:33 Irwin: Yeah, look that...What a view back into the rille.

122:34:35 Scott: Ohhh! There's almost a view right into that crater.

122:34:40 Irwin: Glad you stopped short of it.

122:34:41 Scott: (Laughs)

122:34:42 Irwin: Let's stop here.

122:34:43 Scott: Huh?

122:34:44 Irwin: Let's stop here?

122:34:45 Scott: I got to go down-Sun just a minute. I want to back up just a tad. (Pause) Okay; as far as we can...(Pause)

122:34:55 Allen: And, Jim, as you look back, can you see the Rover tracks?

122:35:02 Irwin: Oh, standby...

122:35:04 Scott: Yeah, we could, Joe. I saw them when we stopped at the last stop.

122:35:08 Allen: Okay; good. (Pause) Sounds like the old Hansel and Gretel trick'll work.

122:35:16 Scott: Yeah, man. (Pause) Okay. We're there, Jim; you can get off. You can try and get off. (Pause)

122:35:27 Irwin: Made it.

Also, the LRV wheels were 23cm wide. Look at the tracks and you can make a rough estimate of how deep the crater is.

Finally, the LRV had a ground clearance of 36cm.

So okay, it may not have been the most impressive driving of all time - but it did happen.

JUST A COINCIDENCE, OR..?

Yep. It's a coincidence. The LMs are different. The horizons are different. Even the Aulis editor admits that.

The Apollo 15 image is AS15-88-11928.

The Apollo 16 image is AS16-116-18723.

Here's AS15-88-11928:

Now's here is a similar view from Apollo 16. It's AS16-116-18716:

Apart from both being on plains, the distant horizon is different. You'll also note that there is a crater in the foreground of AS16-116-18716, beyond the LRV and just before the LM.

ONE OR TWO APOLLO 15 CRATERS?

This is an example where I can believe that Jack has genuinely made a mistake. The images to appear to confirm what he has said. It took a careful study of the images on the sequences to work out what has happened.

These images are both from Station 2 pan sequences.

AS15-85-11428 was taken first at 122 hrs 38 mins. It's known as the Station 2 first pan sequence.

AS15-85-11454 was taken later at 123 hrs 17 mins. It's known as the Station 2 second pan sequence.

The reason the crater "disappears" in 11454 is that Jim is standing on the rim of that crater for the first pan sequence, but has moved further away for the second pan sequence. In AS15-85-11454, the crater in the foreground of 11428 is hidden by a rise in the terrain (or should that be lunain? Seleain?).

WARNING! You should CAREFULLY examine not only the images mentioned above (hi resolution versions), but also hi resolution images both prior to and after the above images. Also read the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal about the astronaut activities at the time to place the images in context.

If you look at the crop I have done below of AS15-85-11428, you'll see I have marked some objects in order to give you some idea of orientation within the image.

AS15-85-11428 (hi resolution, cropped, enlarged to 150% of original, annotated)

Now look at the crop of AS15-85-11454. The same objects are labelled. I have also labelled, with a row of arrows, the crest of the crater lip / lunar dune. It is this crest that is preventing us from seeing the crater that was previously in the foreground. The crater is behind this crest and out of view.

AS15-85-11454 (hi resolution, cropped, enlarged to 150% of original, annotated)

In this next image (AS15-85-11454), you can see the bootprints where the previous image (AS15-85-11428) was taken from.

AS15-85-11454 (reduced to 60% of original, annotated)

This is a very good example of things that may not always be as they seem. A black & white photograph of lunar terrain with little or no contrast between similarly coloured and featured surfaces means a major feature can appear to disappear!