Robin Unger

Hi.oh dear,Sorry but your post started a little interesting dwindled in the middle & by the end was utter rubbish in itself.sorry.

You made comparisons to Lees work/ideas to totally wild theorys,why?

Having mailed with Mr Forman for some time now i've been privy to 99% of his hard work on the Assassination,most of which will not get posted on here because of persons like yourself,no offence.

With respect perhaps your next post may deal with Lee's comments in a more constructive way other than flying off about Aliens,LOL.

Your post was nothing but a shortcut to thinking,again no offence.

kindest regards jim.

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QUOTE:

This photographic record would have become a liability at some stage.

If this photographic record exists then someone must know of it.

If the photographic record of the assassination made by the "Babushka lady" existed, and we know from the photograhic evidence that it did, then someone must know of it. (yes)

Even if you beleive the Beverly Oliver story, that does not account for the fact that

40-years later it still hasn't surfaced.

I guess some people can keep secrets.

Keep taking the medication.

EBC

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I think i need some medication after reading that post.

Death camp for children. ????

Anybody ever find out who these 2 men are??

http://216.122.129.112/dc/user_files/23.jpg

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Credit: James

According to this map there were 6 shots...

http://216.122.129.112/dc/user_files/61.jpg

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Don Roberdeau's Map.

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/DP.jpg

Hi Robin.

Thanks.  I've given a lot of thought to your posts.

The lamp posts have been moved since 1963 [as per Jerry Dealey], making it a bit difficult to figure out the precise location of the Lincoln.

http://users2.ev1.net/~Mickeyd/Dallash19.htm

The light poles that were in the area in 1963 were moved back from the curb to the other side of the sidewalk in 1964-67.

I tried to guesstimate the location, using RB Cutler's map and Art Rickerby's photo, which has both the Stemmons Sign and the Lamppost. Let's guess that it's about 15 feet further down Elm from the Stemmons Sign. I used Cutlers scale and figured out the approximate location.

If I do that, and I draw a line from Zapruder's location, dead center, it seems to correspond with Cutlers notation of 255 in the street. He also 2 positions for Altgen's location, placing him in the street for one of these, across from the pergola, with the notation 255.

I used an approximation based upon Altgens location on RB Cutler's map and tried to recreate the photo. I had to stand in the middle of the 3rd lane - but I was mistakenly using the position of the replaced lamppost and the concrete pillar as my guides, in addition to the grass and the curb at my right. Not perfect, but looks close. This would put the Lincoln further down Elm than I had always imagined, but I don't know if it would have been as far as z267? I realize we're not talking about much of a difference here.

It's worth noting that depending upon how far down Elm the Lincoln had travelled, James Altgens certainly was taking a risk by standing in the street - which again, seemed to me to be about the middle of the 3rd lane.

Now lets examine z255:

- Kellerman is turned towards Greer - good.

- Jackie appears to be fairly distant from Kennedy - good.

- Connally's head and body is turned pretty far to the right - good

- Some kind of white object in between JFK and Jackie - may explain something. Good.

- At least one of Kennedy's hands is up to his throat [the right hand], but this wouldn't correlate for his cuff to have caused the mark we see that I am calling a bullethole, IMO. His hand seems to be more in line with the artist's sketch in that animation I did - his arm being more horizontal.

Now z267:

- We can't see Kellerman because he is blocked by the lamppost, however, in z265 and z268 he appears to be turning much to far to his left to match with the Algtens photo.

- Jackie appears to be too close to Kennedy in this frame, but that could be due to the perspective.

- Connally is turned far to his right - good.

- The white object (?) appears to be too low?

- Kennedy's right hand again doesn't seem to match up.

All speculation, but IMO, something is amiss. But neither of these frames makes me feel highly confident in the scene inside the Lincoln.

- Connally's head appears much too large in contrast to Kellerman?

- Jackie doesn't seem to be in the photo, or she has been cut off due to the white looking object?

- Jackie's gloved hand appears to extend under Greer's fingers and the steering wheel.

- Kennedy's left hand and Jackie's left hand, appear too large?

- Kennedy's arm appears to overlap the steering wheel and extend beyond normal anatomical proportions.

- Kellerman appears to be present in other versions of the Altgens?

And finally, the rearview mirror. Why aren't we seeing the lower half of Kennedy's face undistorted? Why does the rearview appear to have 2 different sizes to it? What's going on between the rearview mirror's bottom edge and the area that I think is a bullethole?

I have to say, I'm more keen now that an area of the original photo was carefully cropped, enlarged, and then re-inserted, with a new photo being taken, to cover the damage to the windshield. In which case:

- The area of tinting in the Warren Report is still suspect in the area illustrated in this thread. Tinting, IMO, was used frequently to conceal things by the 'cover uppers.'

- The trajectory of a shot from the DalTex, penetrating the Lincoln windshield from the rear, losing it's copper jacket, and continuing on the strike the curb at main and wound James Tague - still needs some research. I'd like to get in that window with a laser pointer myself, focus it on the curb where the bullet struck, and see where the light ends up with passing traffic on Elm [without blinding anyone on Main].

- The area in the Altgens may indeed be Kennedy's sleeve, but I still believe that the photo has been retouched. Clearly the one version of Altgens 6 which I believe I posted in this thread [where the rear view mirror and strut stand out clearly and Kennedy's head appears under a roof], is suspect.

A lot to think about. But at a minimum, I still don't credit a South Knoll shot through the windshield based upon the 'spiral shaped hole.'

- lee

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Hi Lee.

You may be right on frame Z-255

I'm not totally convinced that the frame i posted matches exactly with the Altgens photo.

A trick of the light or .... what?

Not the best material to work with granted so if you don't say

"it's evidence of forgery", then I won't say "it's not"

lets both be open-minded on this.

Alan

Alan,

What do you say we start a new thread. This was Robin's thread and I fouled. I've spent a lot of time on the subject of the operation on the knoll. I apologize if I was a bit forward - sign of frustration - possibly the result of the hour and a few too many Carlsbergs [hey - they were on sale].

Let me set up the construct, and see if I can't prove it in. I'd greatly appreciate any assist.

Robin's website had a version of the Towner that slapped me sideways with something I had chosen to ignore quite some time ago. I think it also bears closer examination.

I appreciate your professionalism.

- lee

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Thanks Lee

By all means lee start a new thread, i am always up for a challenge.

I will help where i can.

Alan

quote:

I can also see something in the area of the steps where Lee

is focusing.

Halfway beteen Hudson & the wall.

It's like an egg shaped "smudge" & it goes from the steps to the fence,

see it?

Yes i absolutely see it, stretching all the way from Hudson to the wall.

I will have a closer look at those images that you posted.

I have a question for everybody on the Towner photo #2 http://jfkmurderphotos.bravehost.com/photos.html

It appears that there is a figure on overpass, 2nd man on grass looks to be pointing to overpass and there is a figure in the top right corner of the picture against the wall.

These do not show up in Phillip Willis photo #5 - later time frame I believe.

Any analysis would be appreciated.  Thanks..

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Hi Wade.

There is a great little cropped scan of Towner2 made by Richard Smith @ Robin's site here;

http://www.geocities.com/quaneeri2/4135.jpg

Is it this part of the overpass you are refering too?

This cropped Cancelare photo is also taken from Robin's web site & I just lightened it a touch.

http://216.122.129.112/dc/user_files/4159.jpg

If you study these two photos you can tell that they are taken within a second or two of each other(note the positions of the motorcycles).

So I think that with a good copy of Towner2 you will see that the photgrapher isn't pointing but just filming.

Anyway, don't take my word for it, I'm often wrong.

Regards

Alan

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Thanks Alan.

Hi Robin.

I see what you mean.  However, I'm still firmly of the opinion we've got matting going on.

I've added someone's rendition of the scene which I found someplace - apologies to the author.  Note the comparison.  Someone believed Kennedy's right hand to be up further.

Note the left arm. 

- lee

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Lee.

This is frame Z-267

I have uploaded a "very large" full size towner Blowup to my webpage here is the link.

Robin,

Wow. That was impressive. I looked over your enlargement and saw all kinds of things - some I'd never even noticed before. Like what appears to be a man behind the retaining wall, close to the tree in the corner. Face removed. Perhaps the 2nd badgeman that I have been seeking for quite some time.

I'll try to demonstrate some of it for you. There is something very curious which has bother me for awhile. I noticed it first in Willis 5 I think. Then Betzner, Moorman, and a few others. Your Towner re-opens the issue for me. It concerns my having designated what appears to be human shapes in front of the bushes as possible 'additions.' See that Moorman study I posted for reference. Jack White informed me that those were prickly holly bushes, and not the best place to set up camp - however I was seeing movement in this location somewhere. I'll need to go back to the old files.

- lee

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Thanks Lee.

I hope that enlargement helps you find your man

Badgeman in the Towner.

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Lee.

A "blowup" of your towner image, in the BDM position:

I have uploaded a "very large" full size towner Blowup to my webpage here is the link.

http://www.geocities.com/quaneeri2/TOWNER3LG.jpg

Robert, and everyone,

I won't go into how I came about knowing the following info, except to say that although bizarre sounding, the circumstances surrounding how it was recounted make it at least appear plausible. FWIW :

Apparently, the A.J. Millican seen in the photos was originally a shady horsedealer/trainer from Ireland. Prior to the assassination he was involved in transporting horses between Ireland/England and the US.He was known to locals as a crook. At the time of the assassination, he was employed

in a field that he had no business being in since he had no previous experience doing that. ( His affidavit states he was a pipe fitter of sorts ). During a dinner party/booze-up back in Ireland just before the assassination, his wife was said to have implied his involvement in a plot by " Big Oil " against JFK. Millican was said to have been very upset by his wife's indiscretion, whereupon he attempted to explain it away, suggesting that oil interests were just upset with Kennedy. Those who attended the dinner party were dumbfounded when a few weeks later JFK was assassinated.

Comments, anyone ?

Ian

P.S. For something to do, I did a property search on 2650 Valley View Lane, the address Millican gave in his affidavit . The property is listed as office condominiums, and is zoned Office ,having been built in the early 1980s. Perhaps there was a home(s) at this location prior to that ?

In this testimony when Millican talks about a truck from honest joe's pawn shop parking by the TSBD "store"

Is he reffering to the dock at the rear of the TSBD.?

Or is he simply reffering to the TSBD building

QUOTE:

A.J. Millican

2650 Valley View Lane

Dallas 34, Texas

Chapel 7-4953

Works for Sam P. Wallace and Claude Beard Plumbing Company

Fabricating pipe for the Republic Bank Building at the end of the Katy Railroad yards and the west end of Pacific Street I was standing on the North side of Elm Street, about half way between Houston and the Underpass. About five or ten minutes before the President came by I observed a truck from Honest Joe's Pawn Shop, and parked by the Book Depository Store. Then drove off about five or ten minutes before the Presiden't car came.

Here's an interesting comparison of the 3 men on the stairs to the Moorman.

Uncanny.  The question remains - why was the Phantom introduced?  What was his role?  Is he concealing a shooter, blocking a possible fence trajectory, has he been added to cover the man who fled the scene causing the rush to the knoll, or something else? 

For anyone that may not have read it, the man standing next to Emmett Hudson is not the 'young man' he speaks about in his testimony.  I assume that 'red shirt' man, whom I believe to be an operative, is the young man Emmett refers to in his testimony.  Multiple contradictions, especially given his 'behavior' in Nix. 

Also worth noting are the exhibits presented to Hudson during his testimony. Willis 5 and I believe an FBI re-enactment shot - I may have to go back and doublecheck. Hudson suggests that he could more appropriately locate himself as per the photo in the Dallas Times Herald [Moorman].  Which he believes was taken by the fellow across the street.

Willis 5 does indeed seem to have only 2 men in the position of the stairs.  A much safer bet than presenting him with the Moorman 5. 

Lee.

Interesting testimony from hudson about not being willing to put himself on the spot after being grilled by Liebeler.

- lee

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The man in the hard hat looking up at the building is Howard Brennan. The "detectives" with him are some of the lookalikes and Denim Man from Main and Houston.

Ron

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Hi Ron.

Yeh i wasn't sure if that WAS Brennan or not, for some reason he looked a bit slimmer than i pictured Brennan to be.

And what are the chances that someone would take a photo just as brennan is looking up to identify a shooter.

Robert,

A comment was made that just as JFK is passing, a man in a silver (construction type) hardhat assumes a "bizarre" pose.

I believe that this man is A.J. Millican.

If you look at the Willis photo Robin pointed out and compare Millican's affidavit here:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/millican.htm

I'm pretty sure it's him.

Steve Thomas

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Thanks Steve.

I was racking my brains trying to think of that guys name.

Notice this man in a hard hat standing with the plain clothed detectives looking up in the direction of the Dal-Tex or TSBD.

With them is the "denim man" on the right.

Oops... too much information... 8^)

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I remember reading in one of the wittness statements, that the young man sitting down with Hudson worked in the industrial blvd area.

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QUOTE:

VOLUNTARY STATEMENT. Not Under Arrest Form No. 86

SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT

COUNTY OF DALLAS, TEXAS

Before me, the undersigned authority, on this the 22nd day of November A.D. 1963 personally appeared Emmett Joseph Hudson, Address 107 South Bishop, Dallas, Texas Age 56 , Phone No. WH 2-2008

Deposes and says:

I am presently employed by the City of Dallas, Texas in the Park Department. I have been so employed for the past 6 years. My position is to take care of the property on the West side of Houston Street between Houston Street and the Tripple [sic] Underpass. I also take care of the fountain in front of the Union Terminal. This day a was sitting on the front steps of the sloping area and about half way down the steps. There was another man sitting there with me. He was sitting on my left and we were both facing the street with our backs to the railroad yards and the brick building. At the same time the President's car was directly in front of us, I heard a shot and I saw the President fall over in the seat. I do not know who this other man was that was sitting beside me. In our conversation he talked about having a hard time finding a place to park. He also talked about working somewhere over on Industrial Blvd. This man said Lay down and we did. I definately [sic] heard 3 shots. The shots that I heard definately [sic] came from behind and above me. When I laid down on the ground I laid on my right side and my view was still toward the street where the President's car had passed. I did look around but I did not see any firearms at all. This shot sounded to me like a high powered rifle.

/s/ Emmett J. Hudson

Subscribed and sworn to before me on this the 22nd day of Nov A. D. 1963

/s/ C. M. Jones

Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/hudson1.htm

I wanted to ask of any of the regulars who are interested in the photographic record of the assassination; actually it's a question in response to a comment made by one of them regarding a person photographed just before the kill shot(s). It is as follows: A comment was made that just as JFK is passing, a man in a silver (construction type) hardhat assumes a "bizarre" pose. Could this pose actually be a mimicking of JFK's hand position (hands to throat), and could he be trying to alert the SS agents in the F/U car as it passes, possibly also vocally communicating? There is another photograph (I'm sorry, I don't remember the photographer's name) wherein one standing SS agent seems to be looking in the man's direction.

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Robert.

I beleive it is this willis photo to which you were reffering, the man is standing to the far right of the image.

It looks to me as though he may have been startled by a gunshot.

http://www.geocities.com/quaneeri2/5700.jpg

Here he is again:

Thanks Robin,

that close up of the wall in Nix still looks better than anything that I've seen from other sources.

I was wondering whether these two objects are actually in the film or just part of the page beneath showing through(note the text on the south wall), I've not noticed them before.

It is also curious how these experts could miss this flash in that enhanced version of Nix.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...pe=post&id=1458

Hopefully Groden will release the work he did with Nix on a superior format one day.

Alan

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Alan

Yes i know what you are saying about the two spots that you have indicated with the curved arrow.

I'm not sure what they are, i will try to blow up the image and have a better look.

Bell is killer.

BTW - I put a lot of my thinking into what happened in the operation into that seminar section on The Zapruder Film Conspiracy.  However, I want to add one observation: 

There were definitely cameras back there, as per those who have seen other films, and etc.  I still believe that some sequences of footage taken from some of these cameras was inserted as an underlayer in the Zapruder film.

Does this mean that one or more of these lenses may not have in fact been the reflection/refraction of a spotter's scope?  Definitely worth considering as a very likely factor.  One behind the wall, and one on the stairs.  Very possible.  Especially if you discount a South Knoll windshield throat shot for a North Knoll shot. 

I am really puzzling myself over the operative I found in Muchmore, who is lying prone on the stairs.  I am really beginning to believe he's our boy for the final headshot.  A 30-06 or something, from less than 20 feet.  He has something like a newspaper or something draped over the weapon.

Anyway, here's a job I did on Bell awhile ago.  Time for them to come out from their hiding place in 2005.

- lee

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Lee.

The "figure" in Muchmore that you found, is just a combination of the the shadows, grass & steps IMO but please keep looking.

However, if you are now going to start saying that "he" may of been a source for the headshot, then I have a problem with that.

I think that's quite an extraordinary suggestion. You have(how many?) five? people behind the wall & one of the "two on the steps" is the source for the head shot?

Surely you jest?

How about an alternative?

None of the photos were altered because any operative that was visably ""breaking the law" that afternoon was out of sight of the people with cameras dotted about the plaza?

Not necessarily exactly what I believe but I'd go with that over what your suggesting.

By the way, do you still have that exact frame from Bell you used above & could you show it us please?

If you don't show the source alongside your analysis I can't decide what is or isn't......

Alan

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Credit: D.Roberdeau

Dons highly detailed Dealy Plaza map:

http://members.aol.com/DRoberdeau/JFK/DP.jpg

Can anyone else see a man in a suit walking towards the steps in this image, just to the right of BDM, or am i seeing an illusion.?

Here is what i see.He can also be seen in Betzner beside BDM.

Notice the same markings of a badge and a shoulder emblem exactly as seen in the Badgeman enhancement.

Duncan

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Hi Duncan.

I can see what you are looking at,we appear to be looking at two different people, to me your man is up against the wall, and my man in the suit is between him and BDM further back from the wall.

Hi Lee

Keep the images coming, i find this very interesting.

The green arrow indicates what I believe to be the  bullethole seen by witnesses, which couldn't be the reflection of a radio mike on the front seat. 

As I've stated, it's more than an odd coincidence that this same exact area is tinted in ce350.  It's my opinion that this is one of two bulletholes - the other possible is closer to the rearview, but still, NOT in the area of the so-called SSH. 

- lee

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Lee.

Just a thought, could that white shape be the white cuff of JFK'S shirt on his right arm.

Thanks Robin,

that close up of the wall in Nix still looks better than anything that I've seen from other sources.

I was wondering whether these two objects are actually in the film or just part of the page beneath showing through(note the text on the south wall), I've not noticed them before.

It is also curious how these experts could miss this flash in that enhanced version of Nix.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...pe=post&id=1458

Hopefully Groden will release the work he did with Nix on a superior format one day.

Alan

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Hi Alan.

Good to see you again, that white spot is interesting.

As i read it, Lee thinks that it may be a camera lense.

Hi Lee.

QUOTE:

Anyway, for what it's worth, IMO, this area indicates the lens of a camera. I find that there is some strange type of phenomenon when the lens of a camera captures another lens - some sort of refraction or multiplication of the light occurs, resulting in what appear to be small balls of light.

I'll see if I can import this photo into my old machine and take a whack at it.

Lee, i will wait to see the outcome of your image processing.

Can anyone else see a man in a suit walking towards the steps in this image, just to the right of BDM, or am i seeing an illusion.?

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Thanks Robin,

that close up of the wall in Nix still looks better than anything that I've seen from other sources.

I was wondering whether these two objects are actually in the film or just part of the page beneath showing through(note the text on the south wall), I've not noticed them before.

It is also curious how these experts could miss this flash in that enhanced version of Nix.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...pe=post&id=1458

Hopefully Groden will release the work he did with Nix on a superior format one day.

Alan

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Hi Alan.

Good to see you again, that white spot is interesting.

As i read it, Lee thinks that it may be a camera lense.

Hi Lee.

QUOTE:

Anyway, for what it's worth, IMO, this area indicates the lens of a camera. I find that there is some strange type of phenomenon when the lens of a camera captures another lens - some sort of refraction or multiplication of the light occurs, resulting in what appear to be small balls of light.

I'll see if I can import this photo into my old machine and take a whack at it.

Lee, i will wait to see the outcome of your image processing.

What is that white "cactus shape" to the right of BDM in the image I think it may be sunlight hitting the fence.

Robin,

Have you seen this crop and enlargement of BDM's position?

James

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Thanks James.

I had not previously seen that image in color, i will have a good look at that photo.

This is my lightened version of the HSCA b/w enhanced image.

Enhanced image of nix photo:

Also a large enhancement of the BDM position at the corner of the wall

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk..._Vol6_0068a.htm