Bill Cheslock

Brendan Clint Hill and the other SS agents who consumed alcohol the night and morning before the assassination were on the clock, around the clock, or 24 hour shifts if you will. The regulation states: "However, all members of the White House Detail and special agents cooperating with them on Presidential and similar protective assignments are considered to be subject to call for official duty at any time while on travel status. Therefore, the use of intoxicating liquor of any kind, including beer and wine, by members of the White House Detail and special agents cooperating with them, or by special agents on similar assignments, while they are in a travel status, is prohibited." (SS manual, Section 10, Chapter 1, p. 7) In addition, Chief of the Secret Service Rowley, in his Warren Commission testimony, was asked the following: Mr. Rankin: "When they (SS agents) are out on a trip of this kind, Chief Rowley, as I understand your regulations, it is understood by the regulations and by the Secret Service that they are on duty all the time, that is, subject to call?" Mr. Rowley: "Yes, sir." (WCH V, p. 458) I might add that Chief Rowley told the Commission that he spoke personally to the agents in question, "and they just thought while they were there they would have a drink. It was one of those situations." (WCH V p. 458) Rowley also told the Commission ( I especially "like" this one), "The important thing was that it was pointed out to them this was wrong, this wa a violation. These men are young with futures, they realize the true situation, innocent as they may have seemed to think it was." (WCH V p. 458) As I see it, John Kennedy was young and also had a future. There's nothing "innocent" about the violations they accumulated while at the Press Club and the Cellar Bill C [/quote Clint's statement that he couldn't remember which windows were open on the TSBD building while saying he as per instructions scan such things seems inconsistent. I would imagine he would spend a few days after the assassination going over everything in his mind. I'm not suggesting he didn't look nor that he saw necessarily something that he can't talk about. But it seems a kind of asscovering exercise. Which a lot of this whole mess seems to be about. Was he ever asked to elaborate on this 'can't remember?'. It appears as a stock answer to avoid things by many people. Earl Warren questioned Secret Service Chief Rowley about the importance of agents getting a good night's sleep. The following was stated by the Chairman during Rowley's WC testimony: The CHAIRMAN: "Chief, it seems to me that on an assignment of that kind, to be alert at all times is one of the necessities of the situation. And I just wonder if you believe that men who did what these men did, being out until early morning hours, doing a little even a small amount of drinking--would be as alert the next day as men should be when they are charged with the tremendous responsibility of protecting the President." (WCH V p. 459).

Brendan Clint Hill and the other SS agents who consumed alcohol the night and morning before the assassination were on the clock, around the clock, or 24 hour shifts if you will. The regulation states: "However, all members of the White House Detail and special agents cooperating with them on Presidential and similar protective assignments are considered to be subject to call for official duty at any time while on travel status. Therefore, the use of intoxicating liquor of any kind, including beer and wine, by members of the White House Detail and special agents cooperating with them, or by special agents on similar assignments, while they are in a travel status, is prohibited." (SS manual, Section 10, Chapter 1, p. 7). In addition, Chief of the Secret Service Rowley, in his Warren Commission testimony, was asked the following: Mr. Rankin: "When they (SS agents) are out on a trip of this kind, Chief Rowley, as I understand your regulations, it is understood by the regulations and by the Secret Service that they are on duty all the time, that is, subject to call?" Mr. Rowley: "Yes, sir." (WCH V, p. 458) I might add that Chief Rowley told the Commission that he spoke personally to the agents in question, "and they just thought while they were there they would have a drink. It was one of those situations." (WCH V p. 458) Rowley also told the Commission ( I especially "like" this one), "The important thing was that it was pointed out to them this was wrong, this wa a violation. These men are young with futures, they realize the true situation, innocent as they may have seemed to think it was." (WCH V p. 458) As I see it, John Kennedy was young and also had a future. There is nothing "innocent" about the violations they accumulated while at the Press Club and the Cellar. Bill C

I guess that explains the fruit drinks. They weren't there to drink but to look at the underwear. Smells like a bridge for sale to me. - lee http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:WJJXGS...us&ct=clnk&cd=2 http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearc...displayonly=EXC We might understand the Cellar and its owner, Pat Kirkwood, better if we read part of Karen "Little Lynn" Carlin's Warren Commission testimony. As we know, Ms. Carlin worked for Jack Ruby at the Carousel Club as a stripper, and also knew Kirkwood. The following exchange during her WC testimony is quite revealing: Mr. Hubert: "Who is Pat Kirkwood?" Ms. Carlin: "He owns the Cellar and I had already been threatened by him. My life had been threatened by him." Hubert: "Why did he do that?" Carlin: "Well, it was--he had some publicity down there--television and cameras and so on, and we never got along too well because I told the police, the vice squad about him and identified some policemen that were being paid off by him and everything, and of course, he had so many friends he got out of it real easy, but then he hated me for what I had done." Hubert: "Was that before the President was shot?" Carlin: "Yes, that was before, and so after the President was shot, he found out what was going on and he called me on the telephone, and he says, 'I want you down here in about 20 minutes,' and I said, 'Kirkwood, I don't want to have anything to do with you or your plans, just leave me alone.' " Hubert: "That was after Oswald was shot?" Carlin: "yes, after I went to court that first time, the bond hearing, I believe." Hubert: "Yes." Carlin: "After I went to court, he says, 'I want you down here' and I said, 'Well, I'm not coming down.' He called me back in about 20 minutes and he said, 'Why aren't you down here?' He said, 'I'll send a cab up after you.' " (WCH XV, p 660) Now, what would a stripper working for Jack Ruby be doing involved with an owner of a "coffee house" that served coffee and fruit drinks?? And, why did Mr. Kirkwood have to bribe police officers, if the strongest drink he served was fruit and java?? There's alot more to Pat Kirkwood than we know. Bill C

That's terrible. I had no idea of this. I suppose one has to take his word for the amount he drank? The times would barely give him a decent night sleep and then be bright and ready for the job. One way or the other, some impairment of function sounds reasonable to expect. (I wonder if there are any hints of 'upper' use? Hair of the dog? One wouldn't expect them to be keen to admit to any sort of abuse. Whose idea was it to go to town? Had they been released to do so, was it standard practise? no doubt all this has been hashed over previously.) John - this is a well known and well worn subject. This was partially covered also in a thread on the first black SS - Lamar Waldron - concerning the drinking by the SS. One link to Lamar... http://www.calitreview.com/Interviews/waldron_8024.htm There has been speculation concerning the bartender at the Cellar who served the drinks - Pat Kirkwood - you can Google this, or probably even do a search here on the Forum for more info - how many SS were actually there [anyone's guess since I have seen different numbers], who drank how much and who left at what time - probably a mystery for all time. http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v2n1/chrono2.pdf The fact of the matter is plain and I feel strongly about this in terms of my personal opinion - anyone that had been drinking at the Cellar the evening before the assassination should have been instantly terminated without further renumeration of any kind. PERIOD. No pension, no benefits, no severance. Their primary function was to protect the Commander-in-Chief. Not only did they fail to perform this task miserably, but some of them had been up until the wee hours of that very day - and we are talking about grain alcohol and a cover-up on this matter as well. FIRED - instantly. Why should they have been treated any differently than anyone else? Would anyone in a similar professional capacity today be extended the same 'courtesy?' Fired and with shame heaped upon all their heads...and lucky to have this as an option. In some Countries they would have simply been taken out back and shot. Clint Hill didn't seem to appreciate Vince Salandria's last published work. Was he fit for duty when he protected a corpse all the way to Parkland? The other SS are not heroes - if something I heard once was on the level, then firepower prepared in Dealey - according to plan - was anticipating retaliation - not flight. Does that not make them cowards? It doesn't matter how you feel about Kennedy - objectively speaking, they fled - despite the fact that shots were being fired and they were armed to the teeth. Is that logical? Is that in any way logical? Then there were the write-ups on the SS and the difficulty of their job, their rigorous training, how they could not have been blamed for what transpired etc., along with the Oswald propaganda, poor Kennedy, and 'that LBJ is one cool SOB stuff' - absurd. But that is the phenomenon of recorded history and the 'Golden Rule.' - lee Lee I agree totally that these SS men should've been disciplined according to the guidelines put forth by Section 10, Chapter 1, page 7 of the SS manual. I consider this episode a coverup within the coverup. Actually, it is not a mystery as to who consumed what, how much, and what time they did leave. It's all in the agents' reports to Chief Rowley. They were; David Grant, 1 scotch, left the Cellar at 2:45 a.m. Richard Johnsen, 2 beers at the Press Club, left the Cellar at 12:45 a.m. John Ready, 2 beers at the Press Club, 2 "fruit drinks" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 3:15 a.m. Clint Hill, 1 scotch at the Press Club, 1 "fruit drink" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 2:45 a.m. Ernest Olsen, 1 1/2 "fruit drink" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 1 a.m. Paul Landis, 1 scotch at the Press Club, 2 "fruit drinks" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 5 a.m. Donald Lawton, 3 beers at the Press Club, 2 "fruit drinks" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 3 a.m. Andrew Berger, 2 beers at the Press Club, 1 "fruit drink" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 2:15 a.m. Glenn Bennett, 2 beers at the Press Club, 2 "fruit drinks" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 3:00 a.m. (Source for the above reports is CE 1020) According to Vince Palamara's excellent book, "The Third Alternative," ten men were in the follow up car directly behind the presidential limousine. (Appendix 1, page 1). If we exclude the two presidential advisors, Ken O'Donnell and Dave Powers, who were in the car, actually eight SS men were in or on the car. Four of them are on the list above. They are John Ready, Clint Hill, Paul Landis, and Glenn Bennett. Could any of them stop the assassination had their instincts been quicker? That's speculation, but there must be a reason for the SS manual to have a specific section which prohibits the consumption of alcoholic beverages while on duty. And all of these men were officially on duty. One more piece of information from Palamara's book. In the appendix section, there are notes taken by Palamara when he interviewed Sam Kinney on March 5, 1994, and again on April 15, 1994. Kinney told Palamara that Emory Roberts recalled SSA Ready and ordered the men not to move (even after recognizing 1st shot) (p. 3 of hand written notes of interview). Bill C To picture it in a slightly different way by reorganising the info kindly posted. Mostly I just wanted an idea of who left when. ..Richard Johnsen..2 beers at the Press Club................................................left the Cellar at.00:45 .......Ernest Olsen........................................1 1/2 "fruit drink" at the Cellar...left the Cellar at 01:00 ...Andrew Berger..2 beers at the Press Club ....1 "fruit drink" at the Cellar......left the Cellar at 02:15 ............Clint Hill*.1 scotch at the Press Club...1 "fruit drink" at the Cellar........left the Cellar at.02:45 .Donald Lawton....3 beers at the Press Club.....2 "fruit drink" at the Cellar...... left the Cellar at 03:00 ...Glenn Bennett*.2 beers at the Press Club.... 2 "fruit drink" at the Cellar.......left the Cellar at 03:00 .......John Ready*.2 beers at the Press Club.....2 "fruit drink" at the Cellar.......left the Cellar at 03:15 .......Paul Landis*....1 scotch at the Press Club...2 "fruit drinks" at the Cellar... left the Cellar at 05:00. * in the car When did they have to be ready in the morning? (Most restrained and civilised drinking patterns. I wonder how big the glasses were? Security pulled. Staff dozy? We know the arrival for duty of the agents who were assigned to the follow up car. According to Agent Emory Roberts, who was in charge of the 8 am to 4 pm shift of the agents on November 22, 1963, the following agents arrived for duty at the Texas Hotel at the following times: (We will limit this information to the four agents who violated SS regulations pertaining to consuming alcoholic beverages while on duty, and were assigned to the follow up car on November 22, 1963) Glenn Bennett and John Ready reported for duty at 7:20 a.m. Clint Hill and Paul Landis reported for duty at approximately 8:05 a.m. (Source: Statement of Emory P. Roberts, Assistant to the Special Agent in Charge, White House Detail, U.S. Secret Service, April 28, 1964 CE 1020). Bill C

Robin A very timely photograph. This award, the "Exceptional Service Award," was presented to Clint Hill on December 3, 1963 for his, "bravery in attempting to protect President John F. Kennedy." ("The Third Alternative" by Vince Palamara, photo section). In another photo of the same ceremony, Mrs. Kennedy can be seen standing to the left of Hill. It seems everyone wanted her in photos. LBJ insisted that she stand next to him during the swearing in on AF One. This award was given very soon after the assassination, eleven days by my count. One has to wonder if this ceremony, complete with Mrs. Kennedy in attendance, was a much needed morale booster for the Secret Service, which had to be experiencing internal disaray at this time. Bill C

That's terrible. I had no idea of this. I suppose one has to take his word for the amount he drank? The times would barely give him a decent night sleep and then be bright and ready for the job. One way or the other, some impairment of function sounds reasonable to expect. (I wonder if there are any hints of 'upper' use? Hair of the dog? One wouldn't expect them to be keen to admit to any sort of abuse. Whose idea was it to go to town? Had they been released to do so, was it standard practise? no doubt all this has been hashed over previously.) John - this is a well known and well worn subject. This was partially covered also in a thread on the first black SS - Lamar Waldron - concerning the drinking by the SS. One link to Lamar... http://www.calitreview.com/Interviews/waldron_8024.htm There has been speculation concerning the bartender at the Cellar who served the drinks - Pat Kirkwood - you can Google this, or probably even do a search here on the Forum for more info - how many SS were actually there [anyone's guess since I have seen different numbers], who drank how much and who left at what time - probably a mystery for all time. http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v2n1/chrono2.pdf The fact of the matter is plain and I feel strongly about this in terms of my personal opinion - anyone that had been drinking at the Cellar the evening before the assassination should have been instantly terminated without further renumeration of any kind. PERIOD. No pension, no benefits, no severance. Their primary function was to protect the Commander-in-Chief. Not only did they fail to perform this task miserably, but some of them had been up until the wee hours of that very day - and we are talking about grain alcohol and a cover-up on this matter as well. FIRED - instantly. Why should they have been treated any differently than anyone else? Would anyone in a similar professional capacity today be extended the same 'courtesy?' Fired and with shame heaped upon all their heads...and lucky to have this as an option. In some Countries they would have simply been taken out back and shot. Clint Hill didn't seem to appreciate Vince Salandria's last published work. Was he fit for duty when he protected a corpse all the way to Parkland? The other SS are not heroes - if something I heard once was on the level, then firepower prepared in Dealey - according to plan - was anticipating retaliation - not flight. Does that not make them cowards? It doesn't matter how you feel about Kennedy - objectively speaking, they fled - despite the fact that shots were being fired and they were armed to the teeth. Is that logical? Is that in any way logical? Then there were the write-ups on the SS and the difficulty of their job, their rigorous training, how they could not have been blamed for what transpired etc., along with the Oswald propaganda, poor Kennedy, and 'that LBJ is one cool SOB stuff' - absurd. But that is the phenomenon of recorded history and the 'Golden Rule.' - lee Lee I agree totally that these SS men should've been disciplined according to the guidelines put forth by Section 10, Chapter 1, page 7 of the SS manual. I consider this episode a coverup within the coverup. Actually, it is not a mystery as to who consumed what, how much, and what time they did leave. It's all in the agents' reports to Chief Rowley. They were; David Grant, 1 scotch, left the Cellar at 2:45 a.m. Richard Johnsen, 2 beers at the Press Club, left the Cellar at 12:45 a.m. John Ready, 2 beers at the Press Club, 2 "fruit drinks" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 3:15 a.m. Clint Hill, 1 scotch at the Press Club, 1 "fruit drink" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 2:45 a.m. Ernest Olsen, 1 1/2 "fruit drink" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 1 a.m. Paul Landis, 1 scotch at the Press Club, 2 "fruit drinks" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 5 a.m. Donald Lawton, 3 beers at the Press Club, 2 "fruit drinks" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 3 a.m. Andrew Berger, 2 beers at the Press Club, 1 "fruit drink" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 2:15 a.m. Glenn Bennett, 2 beers at the Press Club, 2 "fruit drinks" at the Cellar, left the Cellar at 3:00 a.m. (Source for the above reports is CE 1020) According to Vince Palamara's excellent book, "The Third Alternative," ten men were in the follow up car directly behind the presidential limousine. (Appendix 1, page 1). If we exclude the two presidential advisors, Ken O'Donnell and Dave Powers, who were in the car, actually eight SS men were in or on the car. Four of them are on the list above. They are John Ready, Clint Hill, Paul Landis, and Glenn Bennett. Could any of them stop the assassination had their instincts been quicker? That's speculation, but there must be a reason for the SS manual to have a specific section which prohibits the consumption of alcoholic beverages while on duty. And all of these men were officially on duty. One more piece of information from Palamara's book. In the appendix section, there are notes taken by Palamara when he interviewed Sam Kinney on March 5, 1994, and again on April 15, 1994. Kinney told Palamara that Emory Roberts recalled SSA Ready and ordered the men not to move (even after recognizing 1st shot) (p. 3 of hand written notes of interview). Bill C

Dan Clint Hill did what he could that day, and it wasn't enough. Perhaps he could've arrived at the limousine quicker if he wasn't out violating a Secret Service regulation the night/early morning before the assassination. In a report to Chief Rowley, Mr. Hill admitted to consuming a scotch at the Press Club, and a "fruit drink" at the Cellar. He also stated in the report that he left the Cellar at 2:45 a.m. (CE 1020). Secret Service regulations with respect to drinking alcoholic beverages were violated by Mr. Hill and at least eight other SS agents on the night and early morning before the assassination. No discipline was handed out because Chief Rowley didn't want the agents to suffer the stigma that would be attached to them if they were indeed punished for violating the regulations of consuming alcoholic beverages while on duty. (WCH V p. 452). Bill C

It's too bad that Reagan's first Attorney General, William French Smith, didn't take on the task of continuing the work of the HSCA. Then again, a Republican administration didn't want to take the chance of making Kennedy, a Democrat, into a martyr. Perhaps the Reagan people knew JFK would become a martyr if Smith continued to pursue the investigation into the assassination. Bill C

[Forrestal, fell to his death from a small window of the 16th floor of the Bethesda Naval Hospital.... Later inspection found heavy scuff marks outside the window sill and cement work. Proponents of the suicide theory claim these were made by Forrestal’s feet while he was hanging by the neck from the radiator, and perhaps that he belatedly changed his mind and tried to climb back in. But the scuff marks confirm no such thing. They could just as easily have been made by his struggle with someone pushing him out the window. A very interesting post, to say the least. I remember talking to a friend who was in the Navy, and he told me he thought there were two members of the military police posted INSIDE of Forrestal's hospital room. If true, this makes Forrestal's "suicide" even more suspicious. Bill C

Ron It seems to me that a major network in the U.S. has to have a handle on the assassination and what is said about it on the air. For years, CBS's Walter Cronkite and Dan Rather were the keepers of the propaganda that was dispensed. Then, it seems that ABC took over the responsibility with Peter Jennings as the new henchman, replacing Rather. I'm now wondering who the new keeper of the propaganda machine will be for the U.S. networks. Katie Kouric is moving to CBS, but I don't think she will be the one. My hunch is that Brian Williams will now emerge to be the heavy to remind the American people that there was a lone assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, who shot JFK. Bill C

If you go to the JFK Lancer Forum, type in a search for "Beyond The Magic Bullet Program." Look for the topic in the list provided and click on it to bring it up. It's originated by Richard Smith, December 1, 2005. This will certainly supplement what Pat has suggested to do.

Paul They keep showing this fiction they call a documentary in the hope that the longer it's on the air, more people will fall for it. Researcher Richard Smith showed how this program actually proved the SB Theory could not be duplicated. In a review of the program, which Richard taped, he showed how the bullet went through JFK's chest, and not his throat. There were many things wrong with that documentary. I would rather they present "The Guilty Men" by Nigel Turner. That to me is much more valid than the nonsense Peter Jennings and company presented. "The Guilty Men" actually had witnesses corroborating what Turner presented. It's too bad that the History Channel and its conglomerates caved in to Jack Valenti and his henchmen. I understand that "The Guilty Men" will never be shown on television again, and that sales of the program have been suspended. Is this what freedom of speech has come to in the U.S.? Bill C

Bill You mentioned freedom of speech. If we take a look at what's happening to the media now, one would have to agree with you. Not only did the History Channel succumb to the politically powerful and rich, I'll venture to say that the HC lost quite a bit of revenue when it wasn't "allowed" to keep "The Guilty Men" on the market for sale. Bill C Hi Bill, According to Vince Palamara (who is featured in one of the episodes), the episode 7-9 DVD was the HC's best seller for the short amount of time it was available for purchase. In our society, when a company leaves that kind of money on the table and walks away, you can rest assured that there was some very serious pressure being applied. Nobody just quits a profitable product, which I'm sure the HC had invested dollars in, unless they are confronted with serious consequences for proceeding. Hello Greg Your point about what Vince Palamara said reveals much about how important it was for the "influential" individuals who pressured the HC to relinquish this very profitable product. I was fortunate to see the program, and the information in it was fascinating. I found the witnesses who were interviewed to be very credible. I would be interested to hear what others who saw the documentary, "The Guilty Men," thought of it. Bill C

Francesca It's an unfortunate, disparaging word for someone from Mexico who crosses the border illegally. They were named "wet backs" because most would swim across the Rio Grande. Bill C

Bill You mentioned freedom of speech. If we take a look at what's happening to the media now, one would have to agree with you. Not only did the History Channel succumb to the politically powerful and rich, I'll venture to say that the HC lost quite a bit of revenue when it wasn't "allowed" to keep "The Guilty Men" on the market for sale. Bill C

Stephen There is an excellent book written by Irving Bernstein titled, "Promises Kept." Bernstein writes of the domestic policies Kennedy was working on at the time of his assassination. JFK was indeed aiming at making a better life for the average American. One area Bernstein writes of is the battle JFK had with U.S. Steel's attempt at raising the general level of steel prices. I'm sure Kennedy's successful fight against the huge steel company didn't make him many friends within the corporate world. Bill C

Jim According to the WC Report, "At approximately 1:15 p.m., Tippit, who was cruising east on 10th Street, passed the intersection of 10th and Patton, about eight blocks from where he reported at 12:54 p.m. About 100 feet past the intersectiion Tippit stopped a man walking east along the south side of Patton. The man's general description was similar to to the one broadcast over the police radio. Tippit stopped the man and called him to his car. He approached the car and apparently exchanged words with Tippit through the right front or vent window. As Tippit reached the left front wheel the man pulled out a revolver and fired several shots. Four bullets hit Tippit and killed him instantly." (WCR, p. 165). According to the WC Report, a witness named Domingo Benavides used Tippit's radio to report the shooting, "at about 1:16 p.m." (WCR, p. 166) Bill C

John The idea that President Kennedy ordered the assassination of Diem is indeed a lie. In his book, "Plausible Denial" Mark Lane described the testimony of E. Howard Hunt under oath during the second Hunt v. Liberty Lobby trial. The trial began in January of 1985, and Hunt testified in court on February 6. Here is a portion of the transcript which deals with Lane questioning Hunt about blaming Kennedy for the Diem assassination. Q "Were you ever involved in any kind of disinformation to embarrass him? Hunt "President Kennedy?" Q "Yes." Hunt "No." Lane interjects here and explains that Hunt was lying. Q "Did you ever have discussion with Mr. Colson about forging some cables in order to blame John F. Kennedy for the death of the leader of South Vietnam?" Lane states that Hunt paused, looked at his attorneys for help, but there was nothing they could do. The question was proper. Hunt "Yes, that is a matter of public record. I can't remember whether Kennedy himself was to be blamed. But certainly the Nixon administration--the Kennedy administration, by the Nixon administration." Q "Did you ever have discussions with Mr. Colson in which you agreed to falsify State Department cables to show that President John F. Kennedy's administration ordered the assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem?" Hunt "I did." Q "And, in fact, did you falsify and forge those documents?" Hunt "Did I?" (lengthy pause) "Yes I did." ("Plausible Denial" page 269) Hunt confirmed what Lane had suspected. President Kennedy did not order the assassination of Diem, but was rather framed by Hunt and the Nixon administration when Hunt falsified State Department cables. Bill C

Thank you for this. I don't have a copy of Karnow's book at hand. Does he give his source for this comment?Karnow has what he calls "Notes on Sources" at the end of his book.... In reality, one would have to search various books to find which one had the quote in it. I don't like this procedure for sourcing material, and it leaves the reader to ask just how valid is his information in the chapter. While that line made for good theater in the movie, JFK, it seems an unlikely comment for LBJ to make "to the joint chiefs at a White House reception on Christmas Eve 1963." For one thing, what would the joint chiefs have to do with getting LBJ "elected?" For another, the image of the joint chiefs gathered together being addressed as a group at a White House reception seems like a dramatic contrivance. Also, the quote implies a quid pro quo arrangement, as if the joint chiefs would be rewarded for providing an election victory with a war. A more credible scenario would have LBJ expressing the need to prevail in the election before acquiescing to the joint chiefs' war plans. Similarly, JFK was known to have expressed the need to get reelected before he could do certain things. Tim Tim You bring up some valid points. It's a shame Mr. Karnow didn't specifically identify his source for the alleged LBJ statement to the joint chiefs. Perhaps we could speculate in place of possessing specific facts about this encounter. It's possible that the joint chiefs were at the White House reception dressed in civilian attire rather than their sparkling uniforms with medals, etc. Perhaps LBJ was saying exactly what you inferred; that to escalate action in Vietnam, he would have to be elected. Yes, JFK did express the need to get reelected before he could do certain things. For example, he told Kenneth O'Donnell of his plans to withdraw from Vietnam, "So we better make damned sure that I am reelected." The source for that quote comes from the book, "Johnny We Hardly Knew Ye," page 16. Bill C

Thank you for this. I don't have a copy of Karnow's book at hand. Does he give his source for this comment?Karnow has what he calls "Notes on Sources" at the end of his book.... In reality, one would have to search various books to find which one had the quote in it. I don't like this procedure for sourcing material, and it leaves the reader to ask just how valid is his information in the chapter. While that line made for good theater in the movie, JFK, it seems an unlikely comment for LBJ to make "to the joint chiefs at a White House reception on Christmas Eve 1963." For one thing, what would the joint chiefs have to do with getting LBJ "elected?" For another, the image of the joint chiefs gathered together being addressed as a group at a White House reception seems like a dramatic contrivance. Also, the quote implies a quid pro quo arrangement, as if the joint chiefs would be rewarded for providing an election victory with a war. A more credible scenario would have LBJ expressing the need to prevail in the election before acquiescing to the joint chiefs' war plans. Similarly, JFK was known to have expressed the need to get reelected before he could do certain things. Tim

Thank you for this. I don't have a copy of Karnow's book at hand. Does he give his source for this comment? John Karnow has what he calls "Notes on Sources" at the end of his book. Unfortunately, he lists only the books he found his information in. For example, chapter 9 holds the quote we're discussing now. Under the "notes and sources" section for chapter 9, Karnow lists over twenty books which are responsible for the information in that chapter. However, he's not specific as to which book is responsible for a particular piece of information. In reality, one would have to search various books to find which one had the quote in it. I don't like this procedure for sourcing material, and it leaves the reader to ask just how valid is his information in the chapter. Bill C

This quote, (according to "JFK The book of the Film") is attributed to Stanley Karnow from "Vietnam:A History" p. 326 Dawn Dawn For those of us who have Karnow's revised and updated edition of his book that was printed in 1991, the quote is on page 342. According to Karnow in this 1991 edition, LBJ said to the joint chiefs at a White House reception on Christmas Eve 1963, "Just let me get elected, and then you can have your war." The quote is quite interesting, in my opinion. He says, "let me get elected," as if the joint chiefs were going to act in some way that would prevent him from winning the election. Why would LBJ say to the joint chiefs, "let me.......?" Bill C And the quote is "Just get me elected and you can have your war".

Hello again The site came in perfectly this time, Robert. Thanks Bill C

Braden was investigated by the LAPD on that and at the time of RFK's assassination at the Ambassador Braden said he was in bed with his wife at another hotel in LA. Noyes wrote a book about Braden, "Legacy of Doubt," a pulp paperback in 1976, which Richard Sprague made required reading for his investigative staff of the HSCA. Braden testified before the HSCA that the book wrecked his life, got him kicked out of the Lacosta Country Club, though he was a founding member, and he disputed that he was involved in any conspiracy. It is absurd, as some suggest, that Braden was a "shooter," since he has no violent background, though he does have a long rap sheet. BK Bill Lacosta Country Club. Isn't that the infamous organized crime hangout where Richard Nixon spent alot of time? Bill C

There is also the General Dynamics connection. LBJ was certainly under a lot of pressure to keep the war going and growing by his ole pals in big business. At the height of the war, LBJ closed the naval shipyards, deciding it was more cost-efficient to use private contractors exclusively. One of the companies to be rewarded with billions of dollars in new business was General Dynamics. Of course, General Dynamics was also the recipient of Johnson and McNamara largesse through their selection of its TFX fighter over a superior fighter created by Boeing. The Boeing fighter was both preferred by the Pentagon and cheaper to make, but Johnson and his cronies insisted in the more expensive fighter, which only so happened to be made by a Texas company. Just so happened to be the home state of Secretary of the navy Fred Korth as well... McNamara is reported to have wanted the TFX because he believed having interchangeable parts would be an economic advantage in the long run. (The TFX wuld be used by the Air Force and the Navy). He failed to understand that the needs for land-based fighters and carrier-based fighters were different. His Ford background was NOT applicable to understanding the military. The conservative notion that the Federal Gov should be run like a business by businessman hit a brick wall in Vietnam, and yet we don't seem to have learned from it. Cheney's inclusion of Haliburton into the Iraq effort will be studied one day, and revealed to be one of the most corrupt acts of modern times. I predict. (I mean, how can we justify paying a private citizen 150k to drive the same truck a 35k a year serviceman would drive? Especially when the private citizen is under no obligation to stick it out when the going gets tough. It's a complete joke.) If I remember correctly, Kennedy decided to take the short flight to Dallas that Friday because a motorcade route would've brought him near or by General Dynamics. As for Cheney, I read in today's Cape Cod Times that he has stuck tax payers with $ millions for trips he and members of his office took the past four years. The source for this information in the CC Times is the "Center for Public Integrity," a nonpartisan research organization based in Washington. I agree Pat. It is indeed a joke, but the American tax payer isn't laughing. It seems more and more corruption is being exposed in the name of this present administration. Bill C