Mark Knight

Thanks for that, Greg. Based upon that, another search turned up this: The MEDICOVAN, June 1956 Note that on Page 2, George W. Bakeman is identified as "Secretary, Board of Visitors and Associate Dean, School of Medicine"...and then there's the little blurb at the bottom center of Page 6: "The Bakemans Report Fine Time Mr and Mrs. George Bakeman, now traveing in Europe, let us know now and then by postals that they are having a marvelous trip. They are expected back around July 5. While abroad Mr. Bakeman is visiting many European medical schools." So despite several opportunities to identify Bakeman as "Dr.," he is instead identified as "Mr." Which pretty much convinces me that Bakeman simply wasn't a doctor. But it still doesn't give me any reason for him to observe JFK's autopsy...unless he was a spook. What might a spook have been observing in Europe in June of 1956, especially near medical schools ?

Interesting, and apparently well-researched. On the "docility" aspect...did you realize that during WWII, one of the compounds sold in the US as a substitute for table salt [NaCl] was LiCl, Lithium Chloride...which is used today to smooth out the highs and lows in manic depressive individuals? Perhaps it's no wonder the Americans took the bad news of the early days of WWII so well...because they "took it with a grain of salt," it seems, they didn't panic when the situation was dire. Doubtful that ploy could work again.

I'm starting to see a picture of Bakeman emerge, at least in his early days. After graduation from MIT with a degree in Sanitary Engineering, by 1916 G. W. Bakeman had acquired some prominence in the American Sanitary Commission: NY Times, January 24, 1916 But Bakeman's presence at the autopsy still isn't making much sense to me. So far, the ONLY credentials I find for him is as a Sanitary Engineer, and nothing that makes him an M.D. But if he was a member of MIT's Class of 1913, and he spent 4 years there after high school, that would put Bakeman's year of birth c. 1890-91...which would have made him 72-73 years of age at the time of the JFK autopsy. That fact might help sort out who he was.

Bill, I was assuming a connection with NIH based upon the fact that the second photo is from a NIH website. Haven't found anything concrete yet, but I'm looking. While perusing Google, I ran across a Bakeman mention in the collected papers of Salomom Chaim Bochner at Rice University. Under the index to "Correspondence," there's a folder marked "Bakeman, G. W. [Rockefeller Foundation]". So I'd suggest that the Rockefeller Foundation connection might be a bit more fruitful...especially since I can't find anything pertaining to Bakeman when serching Medical School of Virginia or its current university connection, Virginia Commonwealth Unversity. Not sure it's the same man, but I found, on a 1914 list of alumni of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, a George W(ilbur) Bakeman, MIT class of 1913, batchelor's degree in Sanitary Engineering. Not sure how that degree would qualify one to observe the autopsy of the President of the United States, but hey...

Bill, I found something--not much, but something--on George W. Bakeman, under the section on France, here: link Why does the name Rockefeller popping up here not surprise me? Then I found this link...G. W. Bakeman at the Paris Rockefeller office, 1934: second link So it seems there's some sort of long-term connection between George W. Bakeman and thr Rockefellers. Apparently, a connection with the National Institutes of Health...so there's SOMEthing medical in his background. photo Bakeman is on the left. And the Medical College of Virginia, now a part of Virginia Commonwealth University: MCV Other than the items above, Austin Powers pales against Bakeman as an "international man of mystery."

In America, the custom is that a man usually carries only one billfold or wallet, and the terms are used interchangably. One noticable exception might be commercial truckers, who might carry a "trucker's wallet" for company money, invoices, receipts, etc. in addition to a personal wallet or billfold. Over here, what you seem to be describing as a "billfold" might be referred to as a "money clip," a device used to hold paper money folded once. Women, who carry purses, might have a separate wallet and a billfold, but most men in America only carry one..or one at a time, anyway. So what I am referring to, and was referring to when I began this thread, is the billfold/wallet [single] that most men in America carry. Sorry for any confusion this might have generated. Most American men only carry one wallet/billfold, usually in a hip pocket, and that wallet/billfold normally contains both identification cards and cash, as well as photographs in many cases. I was unaware that the custom was different in other countries, and I apologize for my ingnorance. But in the context of America, 1963, the average American man only carried one wallet/billfold at a time, and most only owned one at a time. Yet Oswald is alleged to have had three on November 22, 1963: the one left at the Payne house, the one allegedly found at the Tippit murder scene, and the one on his person when he was apprehended at the Texas Theater. And that is the basis of this entire thread.

Tom, I must a bit more dense than you give me credit for...because I simply have to ask. The section of the survey representing the street lamp post, the sign, and the storm drain....obviously, the relationship of the sign and the lamp post can ONLY be a representation of the lamp post and sign in across Elm, approximately, from the Altgens/third shot position. So are you implying that the Shaneyfelt shenanigans have to do with passing off this sign/lamp post relationship as the relationship between the sign and lamp post shown earlier in the Z-film...the sign which JFK emerges from behind, having been struck by the first shot? Obviously, as the limo travels down Elm Street, it passes the first sign BEFORE passing the lamp post. But it passes the second sign AFTER passing the lamp post..and the ONLY lamp post with a storm drain so situated is the one at the second sign. Am I getting warm, or did I [once again] miss the point you were making? For it's obvious that the survey note you included at the bottom of your most recent post sets out the relationship between the lamp psot and the sign, the curb, and the two posts supporting the sign...and since the lamp post precedes the sign as one travels down Elm, this can ONLY represent the sign near the storm drain...because the sign further up Elm PRECEDES the lamp post, and therefore any drawing of the relationship between the sing and th lamp psot would have the sign somewhat to the RIGHT of the lamp post, and not to the left, as this drawing indicates. How 'bout it...am I getting any closer to the truth, or am I still chasing rabbits?

OK, I'm not a moderator...but the Miller argumentation/namecalling threads already have "Gordon Arnold" in the title. Let's not bring these petty squabbles over here. I'm curious to find out who Von Pein actually is [i'm assuming it's a nom de plume], and I don't need another thread to ignore because of the juvenile squabbling.

OK, Tom...you make a fairly convincing argument. But refer back to the "Bond" topic, and especially the photo showing the view from the Dal-Tex building. It would appear, from the photo, that this location would also have all the advantages you ascribe to the SE window of the 6th floor of the TSBD. Only disadvantage of the Dal-Tex location, as far as I can see, is that the traffic light might have interfered with your 3rd shot at the Altgens position...and I only say "might," because it appears to me that the limo would've had to go beyond the point where the light/arm crosses the shooting field to reach the Altgens position. I DO, however, agree with your position that the circumstances of the assassination tend to indicate that Ozzie didn't just wake up on the morning of November 22 and decide to shoot the President at that time. Nor did the idea occur on the 21st, either. And I would concur that, if the shooter actually was LHO, he was trained far beyond what his USMC record indicates. What I do have problems with are reports that news reporters [and others] on the 22nd moved and shifted boxes around, so that we really don't know with any degree of accuracy exactly what the "sniper's lair" acutally looked like. And, again pointing out the short distance from the floor to the windowsill, I just can't picture anyone--even a 5'6" version of LHO--firing from that window from a standing position...the windowsill coming to about mid-calf on a standing person, the window when fully open wouldn't have allowed anyone to shoot from a standing position unless (1) they were shooting at a rather pronounced downward angle, say 30 degrees or so; or (2) the shooter was a distance of approximately 8 to 10 feet away from the window; or (3) the shooter was a circus midget. Scenarios one and two conflict with known facts and eyewitness testimony, and I have yet to read any reports of a circus in Dallas on November 22, 1963 that was missing a midget at 12:30 pm. But I COULD picture someone taking a "bench rest" position on a book carton, and firing from a kneeling or sitting position [again, taking the height of the windowsill from the floor into consideration].

President-elect Barack Obama, although technically a Baby Boomer, tends to identify with younger Americans. And younger Americans, for the most part, really don't care about the JFK assassination. When you're 30, something that happened 45 years ago is "prehistory" to you...you realy can't identify with the sorrow and the angst of a generation that witnessed JFK's funeral, because you didn't witness it yourself, and you have no idea of the tremendous level of grief that the nation felt that long weekend in November, 1963. My son was born nearly 17 years after the JFK assassination. While he has an appreciation for history, he also tells me that "we really don't care," referring to his generation. His argument is that the perpetrators are most likely dead, and they got away with it, and their reasons for doing the deed [whether Vietnam, Cuba, mob-related, or whatever] are probably moot as well in this day and age. He tells me that my obsession with discovering the truth of the JFK assassination is simply a part of my personality that he accepts and overlooks, much like my OCD about many other things. And I believe his attitude is fairly widespread. Unfortunately, we simply can't FORCE people to give a damn...and that, I believe, is going to be the greatest obstacle to getting anyone within the government to act. Including the new President.

Interesting webpage: 24th Infantry Scrolling down the page, one of the first comments is from an "L. Mooneyham." Does that not sound like the name of a Dallas policeman who had some level of prominence in the investigation of the JFK assassination? Or am I suffering from CRS [Can't Remember S...tuff] again? EDIT: It was that CRS striking again...Officer was Luke MOONEY, withess was MRS. MOONEYHAM. Sorry about that.

My wife gave me some new books for my collection over the holidays, and I have to say that her selections were very good. I thoroughly enjoyed "The Last Campaign: Robert F. Kennedy and 82 Days That Inspired America," by Thurston Clarke. But the one I'm reading now is Michael Dobbs' "One Minute To Midnight," a narrative of the Cuban Missile Crisis that includes more recently released information from both US and Soviet files. According to Dobbs, had JFK allowed General LeMay's viewpoint to prevail, and had the US landed troops in Cuba, the Soviets already had tactical nukes on the island, and were prepared to use them on any landing invasionary force...as well as turning Gitmo into a smoldering radioactive crater, and launching missiles that were--according to Dobbs--capable of reaching New York City, among other US locations. JFK was unaware, apparently, that the nukes had actually reached Cuba, and yet he managed somehow to NOT begin what surely would have resulted in the mutual destruction of the US and the USSR, as well as Cuba. At this point, I'm only about halfway through the book. But what I've read to this point leaves me amazed. So...how many other presidents have saved the world by accident? [On another level, it appears the US intelligence gathering apparatus hasn't gained much ground between 1962 and 2003, as far as WMD's are concerned...despite the what, TRILLIONS? of dollars spent in that area.]

As with John, the term "four leaves" suggests in my mind, by simple association, the term "clover." And then there's that other definition of "leave," which is "to depart." In "Four Leaves," I can figure out leaving Vietnam...and Cuba...but not necessarily two other locales in the 1963 timeframe. Just brainstorming...since I've come up emptyhanded searching otherwise 'round and about the 'net.

Could it be this?: September 25, 1963 Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara and Gen. Maxwell D. Taylor, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, arrived in Saigon to investigate what effect the political problems in South Vietnam have had on the military situation. They are expected to visit the-country's four military regions. (3:1) Bill, I don't think that's it. The Defense Production Act covers a lot of ground, but doesn't pertain to Vietnam per se. Wikipedia: Defense Production Act This link provides a little more information: Defense Production Act of 1950 So just what part of the DPA were they invoking? Something to do with production of something? The phrase "...highest national priority category for development and production" seems to imply a product of some sort. Maybe Agent Orange or some other type of defoliant [hence the word "leaves"]? A Google-type search turns up absolutely NOTHING of value on "Project Four Leaves." EDIT: Ok, maybe NOT Agent Orange...sources show that was being used in 'Nam as early as '61.

QUOTE(Robert Howard @ Jun 26 2008, 09:44 PM) An Unfounded Observation about Lee Oswald? SOURCE: HSCA Report 65.6 KERTZ, CHARLIE, Oswald witness; founder of the New Orleans Charlie's Saints Marching Band. Kertz was the deputy constable who, in 1963, evicted Oswald from his apartment at 4907 Magazine Street. Kertz said to New Orleans Times-Picayune columnist Angus Lind in 1991. "It was a Friday afternoon, and it was very unusual to evict someone on a Friday afternoon.” According to Lind, "Kertz said he confronted Oswald with the order to evict, showed him his credentials and told him to get his personal belongings out of the furnished apartment; otherwise they would be placed on the sidewalk, routine eviction procedure." "The guy was so weird," said Kertz. "He didn't say a word. There was a woman with him who had a child. He came down the steps, took a right, and headed toward Audubon Park." After that, Kertz never saw him again. According to Lind, "[Kertz] and another constable went in, put a baby bed and some clothes on the sidewalk, then opened a closet and found three rifles. They unloaded them and put them out on the sidewalk. They then removed about 30 paperbacks from the closet. . . .and underneath them were two handguns, which they unloaded and put under the mattress of the baby bed. Kertz said he figured Oswald was “some kind of hunter.” Neighbors of Oswald’s when he lived at the Magazine Street apartment in New Orleans remember him as an odd duck. There are reports Oswald was often seen walking backwards. Re the above there are 0 hits when searching Charlie Kertz, at NARA same goes for Angus Lind at NARA Re the above there are 80 hits when searching New Orleans Times Picayune at NARA see below http://www.nara.gov/cgi-bin/starfinder/27884/jfksnew.txt If the above statement is true, then it certainly blows a hole in the WC's contention that Oswald only had one rifle and one pistol. But it might go a long way toward explaining how the 91/24 Carcano "morphed" into a 91/38 between April and November of 1963.

Possibly the same Charlie Kertz? http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...757C0A963948260 [From 1985] http://www.legis.state.la.us/leg_docs/00RS...UT/0000HS4U.PDF [From 2000] Possible contact number for Charlie Kertz? [under Clerk of Court, Civil Department, 5th name from top] http://www.metairie.com/gov/teleph.htm I'd like to know more about Kertz's alleged statement that LHO, when evicted, had THREE rifles and TWO pistols. That would certainly shoot down the WC's conclusion that LHO only owned ONE rifle and ONE pistol after his return from the USSR.

You mean Tom is open to persuasion? Bill, you have to understand that Tom didn't "invent" his theory of three shots, three hits. The Secret Service started with that, and had the points where the bullets hit the President mapped out on a survey of Dealy Plaza. Tom merely exposed the information that the SS already had, and then went about showing how the medical evidence supports the SS three-shot, three-hit scenario. Tom has also pointed out how the FBI began altering the survey data to support first their own implausible theory, and then finally the pure cock-and-bull of the WC's SBT. In both the SS survey and the "altered" FBI survey, the point of the third shot/third hit didn't go away...UNTIL the WC "made" it disappear under the sleight-of-hand of having the original survey sealed, attesting that a "tracing"of the survey was good enough for their purposes, and then using a "cardboard representation" of the "tracing" of the "sealed survey" as evidence...as opposed to UNsealing the survey and using the actual evidence they had in hand! IMHO, Arlen Spector should've been hung for treason, rather than elected to the U. S. Senate!

As I understand the U.S. Constitution, Caroline Kennedy Schlossberg meets all the requirements to hold a seat in the U. S. Senate. The fact that she's not a lawyer is a plus, IMHO. My interpretation of the intent of the Founding Fathers was that our government would be populated by ordinary folks who served a term or two and then went back to their home communities...NOT the league of career politicians we've descended to, and are apparently resigned to re-electing, for God-only-knows-what-reason. She obviously can't screw it up worse than ony of the ones who've recently been indicted for corruption; and who knows, but because of the events that have occurred in her life up to this point, she might actually decide to do what's right for the country...and what a breath of fresh air THAT would be! But she wouldn't be representing my state, so my comments carry no weight. HOWEVER, since this post was initially an attempt to dissuade Caroline from running--for all the WRONG reasons, I might add--I suppose my opinion probably doesn't carry much less weight than convicted felon Jimmy Files, either.

You assume correctly, Tom. I'm of the opinion that Oswald ordered, and most likely received, the 36-inch rifle...most likely a 91/24 cut-down Long Rifle. [Went to gunbroker.com the other day, and was astounded by the asking prices of even the 91/24 "shortened" Long Rifle!]. Yet as far as can be determined, the 91/38 found in the TSBD cannot positively be traced to Oswald...from ANY particular source. I'm interested in how LHO obtained the ammo for the rifle--providing it was his rifle--since he apparently never ordered any from anywhere, and the WC doesn't allow any spare cash in his finances for him to purchase any ammo...ESPECIALLY that WCC ammo that was ordered under a USMC purchase order. [Did somebody shout "INCOMING!!!" ?] I'm thinking that, even if LHO was a patsy, he had to be a credible patsy. As far as his marksmanship...check. As far as him ordering "A" Mannlicher-Carcano rifle...check. As far as him ordering the rifle found in the TSBD...not so good. As far as him accessing ammunition for ANY 6.5mm rifle...not so good. By choosing a rifle that was relatively unknown to sportsmen--as opposed to the Mauser or Enfield, which were "sporterized" in large numbers--maybe the plotters thought they could slide one by the public, and "substitute" the 91/38 found in the TSBD for the 91/24 that LHO ordered [and presuambly received]. Only some sort of pesky "gun nut" would've figured out the difference, and let the cat out of the bag. But if you have something else of a different nature to reveal, I'm still interested. BTW...about that specification on that purchase order for a "six shot" rifle...wouldn't the capacity of the "stripper clip" determine whether the rifle was a five-shot or a six-shot...and not any other particular characteristic of the rifle itself? Sure makes me think the form is bogus, as well as the information about the "Beretta Terni" origin of the rifle. My experience with purchase orders, has been in an auto parts setting. BUT...it's entirely unlikely, in my experience, that the April change memo on the PO would've been in exactly the same handwriting as the January original. Usually, PO's consist of the original, usually sent to the vendor [the original to the vendor because it's the copy least likely to be smudged]; an accounting copy, which is attached to the invoice before the invoice is processed for payment; and a file copy. Since NCR [no-carbon-required] forms weren't common in 1963, it's entirely likely that the purchase order was a snap-apart carbon form, or it might possibly be a 3[or more]-part carbon form from a bound book of perforated forms. In any case, the PO in the exhibit--ostensibly from Klein's files--appears to be an original, rather than a carbon copy, based upon the clarity of the handwriting throughout...which is what, in MY mind, casts the most doubt upon the possibility of the April change memo being valid. As I say, your mileage may vary.

Bill, I would add that the alleged gunshots on the Dictabelt recording cannot be confirmed as coming from Dealy Plaza at 12:30 pm November 22, 1963 any more than they might've been recorded elsewhere. So the "acoustics" has no more evidentiary value, IMHO, than the "marked" shell casings from the Tippit shooting location that later couldn't be identified by the folks who had allegedly marked them. Things can be "alleged," "assumed,"and "supposed" about the "acoustic" evidence, but nothing can be proven...including where the "acoustic" evidence was recorded. If this stuff had come up in a trial of LHO, introduced by either defense or prosecution, I seriously doubt the "acoustic evidence" would've been allowed. But I'm curious to see what more Tom has to say about the Z-film and the limo speed. I know it was addressed some time back in another thread, but the way the information dovetails with the survey info, I think this might be a good time to take a closer look that direction.

Ron, without commenting on Obama's ties to the Illinois governor, I think you're right about one thing: Obama's not going to blow the lid off the JFK assassination coverup. To do so would be a death sentence; to leave it alone, his political and personal life pretty much goes on. And I don't see many non-jihadists signing up for martyr duty these days.

My guess would be, IF the Yates statement is true...then the conspirators assigned Oswald to bring in curtain rods, and that's why the package Randle/Randall and Frazier reportedly saw was described as "curtain rods" to Frazier by LHO...probably because it WAS curtain rods. Of course, I have more doubts than confidence in the Yates story. I was just playing devil's advocate, and considering what the circumstances might've been if Yates was being truthful. I don't think Yates was tied in with the conspirators at all; if he was, why would he volunteer a story at all?

Perhaps things occurred as Yates stated, but it was merely an Oswald IMPERSONATOR...??? Like the one in Mexico City, perhaps...in order to tighten the frame, maybe? Or maybe to cast doubt, and help ensure that the "mystery" stayed a mystery?? Again, just a thought...and it only works if the decoy Oswald knew how it would end from the beginning.

I think your idea has merit...in March '68 Johnson folded his hand first, and then...

Good stuff, Tom. This is the kind of info I was seeking. Keep it coming.