Mark Knight

Is the Z-film altered? To answer that, one must take the Bill Clinton approach: it depends upon what your definition of the word "is" is. Were frames removed from the film? Certainly. Does that constitute alteration? In my mind, yes. Were remaining frames altered? I'm not sure that they were, and I'm inclined to believe that they weren't. I'm just not sure that Zapruder just "happened" to zoom in on the frames around the 313 head shot...especially since the motorcade was closest to him at this point. Would've been more logical to zoom in as the motorcade was further away, and then either stay "zoomed in," or even zoom out a little as the motorcade got closer in order to keep images relatively consistent. JMHO...I claim no expertise in moviemaking, photography, photogrammetry, or any related scientific or mystical field.

Duke, I wasn't aware that the FBI wasn't allowed to make a follow-up interview after learning of the SS info about the riflescope. My bad. I thought that a follow-up interview with Goldstein, in light of the fact that Klein's and Dave's House of Guns--located mere blocks from where Oswald worked--were the two PRIMARY customers for the particular riflescope found on the Carcano, would be appropriate. Especially if the TRUTH was what was being sought. I stand corrected. I guess I watch too much TV, where law enforcement is allowed, or even encouraged, to do follow-up interviews. Sorry if my fantasies intruded on the WC investigation realities. I'll go sit in the corner now.

More on Klein's and rifles and the confusion attached: http://jfklancer.com/pdf/moyer.pdf Of rifles, short rifles, carbines...and that doggone S&W .38 shows up again.

Yes, the WC WAS apparently aware that two rifles with serial number C2766 were in custody. Yet they tried to pass off the model 91/38 short rifle, the actual murder weapon, as the model 91/24 "shortened" rifle that came from Klein's. If the LHO palm print came from the underside of the barrel on the 91/24, then it DIDN'T come from the murder weapon. If it DID come from the 91/38, the actual murder weapon, THEN we have connected LHO to the murder weapon. Otherwise, the "coincidence" of both guns having the same serial number is ALL, besides the TSBD, that connects Oswald to the murder weapon. So did the palm print come from the 91/38? Or was it on the 91/24? If it was from the 91/24, then authorities were playing a "shell game" with the evidence...since the 91/24 was NOT linked to the murder. Tom, I know that there might have been as many as 5, or 50, or whatever, that had serial number 2766 on the barrel. And I'm aware that there were blank barrels that could've been stamped with whatever serial number someone wanted to put there. That's not the problem I'm having with this. The problem I'm having is...someone who may have stamped a blank barrel on a model 91/38 would have HAD to know what serial number was on LHO's 91/24 in order to match it...and since the serial number, by the Klein's paper trail, ties C2766 to LHO, I really doubt that Oswald would've wanted to have incriminated himself in that way, if he'd had possession of the 91/38 on 11/22/63. Putting myself in the shoes of an assassin, if I'm going to leave behind a rifle that's NOT the only one with a paper trail to me, I'm gonna make DAMNED sure it doesn't have a serial number that SEEMS to tie it to that paper trail. Now, Royce: the WC has tied LHO's "Victory" model handgun to Seaport Traders, via Empire. In my mind, it's likely that the second Carcano, the model 91/38 short rifle, may have also been sourced from Empire, through who-knows-where. But there's no evidence tying ANY second Carcano to LHO, with the exception of the "Backyard photo," according to Mr. Purvis' explanation. So there's no proof he bought it--and the WC deals extensively with Oswald's money trail--and no evidence that Oswald ever owned more than ONE rifle. So if LHO's ONE rifle was the 91/38 after the backyard photo, where did the police find the 91/24 to actually have it in custody? And if LHO's ONE rifle was the 91/24, who matched the serial number from it for the 91/38--the murder weapon? And how did they get it into the TSBD? What I'm getting at, there's a serious gap in the record on WHERE, WHEN, and HOW the police got custody of the second Carcano [the 91/24, if we allow that the 91/38 was found in the TSBD and taken into custody there]...and answering that WHERE, WHEN, and HOW will go a long way toward unraveling the conspiracy. Once we figure out that part, THEN we can work on determining where the 91/38 actually originated from. But for now, as far as I can determine, there's no record as to WWH [where, when and how] police took the 91/24 into custody...but the evidence exists that they had [have?] both rifles simultaneously. To use one of Tom Purvis' favorite terms, I think the attempt to pass off the 91/38 as the Klein's 91/24--when they obviously knew better--ALSO qualifies as sleight-of-hand, or an attempt thereof. I prefer to think of it as the old con-man's favorite stand-by, the shell game. By either name, it's still a crock.

Maybe I'm not being clear about the point that I'm trying to make. The photographic record appears to show that authorities--be it the FBI, SS, DPD, or the Mayberry Sheriff's Department--had BOTH the 91/24 "shortened" rifle AND the 91/38 "short rifle" in custody...as is proved by the photos of the "same but different" C2766 serial numbers photographed. [stay with me here.] Apparently, they had BOTH rifles in police custody AT THE SAME TIME...so they authorities KNEW that there were TWO rifles involved. [still with me?] Police ballistically traced the 91/38 to the assassination. Yet the authorities, and the WC, tried to pass off the 91/24, the rifle that came from Klein's, as the murder weapon...knowing full well that it was the SECOND C2766, the 91/38, that was the murder weapon. SOMEBODY knew this information at the time. That's the cover-up, and the frame...if not of Oswald, then of the Klein's rifle...which was ballistically traced to NO crime, AFAIK. So if the 91/38 was recovered from the TSBD, as it apparently was...WHEN did the 91/24 come into police custody? From where, since it was claimed that it WASN'T found at the Paine house? If we can determine THAT, we'll be a lot closer to discovering the co-conspirators involved...whether they were Oswald's co-conspirators, or whether they were part of some other conspiracy, the existence of the TWO rifles in the assassination story prove at least collusion by parties heretofore undetermined. [Did you follow that?] And the authorities HAD to know that the existence of the two rifles with matching serial numbers in the same murder case was evidence of some sort of conspiracy...since the police apparently had BOTH rifles--one ballistically connected to the murder, and the other connected to the alleged murderer-- in custody SIMULTANEOUSLY. If we knew when and where police obtained the Hidell/Klein's rifle--since it wasn't the one that came from the TSBS--it would go a long way towards unraveling the mystery, and the conspiracy. Can you agree with that?

So...I guess we can break this down into (1) what we know, and (2) what we don't know. What we know, based upon the best evidence available, would include: (1) The rifle shipped from Klein's was a 91/24 TS carbine, or a shortened rifle, which was 36 inches long. (2) The rifle in police custody, found in the TSBD, was a 91/38 short rifle, which was 40 inches long. Therefore, we can conclude that the rifle shipped from Klein's Sporting Goods to "A. Hidell" in care of LHO's post office box was NOT the rifle recovered by police in the TSBD. From that we can conclude that the rifle shipped from Klein's was not connected to the JFK assassination, other than to have carried the same serial number as the separate and distinct rifle recovered from the TSBD. Ballistics and analysis of bullet fragments from the assassination link the short rifle to the assassination...but not the "shortened" rifle. But apparently, from the photographs of the stamped serial numbers, police MUST have had BOTH rifles in their possession at one time. And exactly which gun yielded Oswald's palm print...the 91/24, which can be traced to him thru Klein's, or the 91/38, which can't be traced back to Oswald?? Why the shell game? Why didn't someone who knew come forward and SAY that they had two rifles in custody, both with the same serial number? It's quite obvious today that either the DPD, SS, or the FBI knew this....or perhaps they ALL knew it. I think that finding the source of the model 91/38 short rifle may be the Rosetta Stone of the conspiracy...because if Oswald had a source for a second rifle--one the WC says he didn't have enough income to purchase--yet he somehow acquired it...then the existence of conspiracy is proven. And if Oswald didn't acquire the short rifle--Sterling Wood's testimony aside--then there certainly was a conspiracy that may NOT have included Oswald, and making sure the short rifle had the same serial number as Oswald's rifle from Klein's may prove that Oswalds was merely the patsy he said he was. Or maybe the truth lies somewhere inbetween. But the second rifle, as I see it, surely proves conspiracy...as I don't think Oswald procured the second gun without knowledgeable help. And the fact that the WC went into such great detail in CE 2562 [going from memory here] about a Carcano with the same serial number from Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods being tracked to a certain point, and then "disappearing" into a story about salvaged and repaired guns, makes me think that the WC knew SOMETHING about the second gun but chose to hide what they knew in the miscellany, hoping that no one would pick up on what was being said--or not said--about that gun's existence. This all just seems to be of critical importance, in my mind, because if one can unravel the source of the 91/38 short rifle, one can start putting the pieces of the conspiracy together a lot easier.

It appears that a couple of years ago we discussed the 40-inch "short rifle" which was [allegedly] recovered at the TSBD vs. the 36-inch "shortened" rifle shipped from Klein's. Just yesterday on another thread I read Paul Rigby's post from another source which suggests that the WC report was a lie that, once researchers began to investigate its voluminous evidence, wuold unravel under its own weight. That theory would explain why the WC report went to such great lengths to "prove" that the murder weapon came from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago, and then go several pages further following another Carcano with serial number 2766 to Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods in Montreal, a business that was [onveniently] defunct by early 1964. The late Mr. Hemming emailed me sometime after my last previous post on this thread and said [or implied] that the second C2766, which I assume to mean the 40-inch "short rifle," indeed came via Montreal. Hemming also strongly hinted at a connection to French intelligence, but I've not been intelligent enough to figure out where to pick up that trail. Maybe the French thing has to do with Klein's/Pepsi/Laos Pepsi plant that processed heroin/"French Connection"/Marseilles sort of thing...but if so, how does it all tie in to the JFK assassination? Or perhaps Hemming was just blowing smoke. Still, I don't think it's logical that if LHO was the shooter, he'd leave behind the 40" short rifle with a serial number that would tie him to the gun...UNLESS he knew he could produce the 36" "shortened" rifle and show that it wasn't HIS rifle that did the deed. [boy, would THAT trial have been interesting!!!] Or maybe that's why Oswald had to be eliminated...because it would reveal too many "family secrets" about the CIA and rifles [and WCC ammo] being provided to overseas combatants. Or maybe LHO wasn't the shooter, but the "short rifle" with the serial number that matched LHO's rifle was part of making him the "patsy," as he claimed...but the short rifle would've had to have been made up and planted by someone with knowledge of the serial number on Oswald's rifle. As they say, "The truth IS out there"...but I'm having a hard time getting to it.

Thanks once again, B., for the info you posted. The John Ritchson information was, indeed, what I was attempting to find with the forum's "search" function. If the rifle that "did the deed" in Dealy was, indeed, the rifle in the archives--the Moschettiere del Duce--then the murder weapon definitely was NOT the cut-down carbine the Alek Hidell ordered from Klein's. Perhapos this is like the autopsy personell sectioning the second brain...the brain that included portions that, in JFK's brain, were missing after the shooting. At this point, I'm surprised that Mr. Purvis, with all his expertise regarding Carcano rifles, hasn't addressed my questions in this thread. I would think that, with hios inquisitive mind, he would've discovered other possible sources for the short rifle found in the TSBD, sources which might explain why LHO would leave a rifle there that would incriminate himself by its serial number, yet NOT be the exact rifle--with the shortened barrel--shipped to Hidell by Klein's. Surely even Mr. Purvis has a theory on how--and why--this occurred. And thanks once again, Mr. Jim Root, for responding. I've been following the research you've posted on the forum about Walker and Oswald, and the extreme likelihood that they had a relationship prior to the April '63 shooting at Walker's house. IF--BIG "IF" here--the rifle in the National Archives is one of the ultra-rare Moschettiere del Duce models--less than 200 made--and IF Walker had one of these, possibly as a war trophy, prior to the assassination...but didn't have one afterwards...AND assuming that Walker and Oswald had a relationship on the road to Helsinki, and possibly afterwards as well... Well, it's hard for me to NOT entertain the possibility that the relationship between LHO and Walker was NOT adversarial, and that the Walker shooting was a set-up...it made Walker a target, at least on paper; it "proved" the inaccuracy of the Klein's cut-down rifle; and it gave LHO tho "opportunity" to, in Marina's words, "bury" the Klein's rifle and later pick up the more accurate "short rifle" used in the actual assassination. But I'm still having trouble understanding how Oswald would consciously either leave behind, or allow someone else to leave behind, a rifle that has a serial number that will trace back to Hidell/Oswald...even if it's NOT the rifle shipped from Klein's. Even Oswald would've been smart enough to know that "evidence" might be enough, in the eyes of a jury, to put him in the electric chair...so I find it hard to believe that he would KNOWINGLY have taken that risk. Of course, it's also highly unlikely, in MY mind, that someone would take a 1-of-200 rare rifle and mount that cheap Jap scope on it, therefore ruining its collector value...unless they knew beforehand the purpose of the modification, which would make that 1-of-200 rifle a one-of-a-kind. Like many of the facts that are known, sometimes 2 + 2 doesn't quite equal 4 in the JFK assassination story...which is why, I suppose, that this bit about Oswald and Walker and the rifle{s} is so troubling to me. Logical minds seek logical answers, and that logical answer is proving elusive to me.

B, thanks for posting all the visual stuff. For the purposes of the point I was trying to make, I only needed the two serial numbers C2766 that don't exactly match. Why? Because I'm simply trying to establish the fact that the C2766 shipped by Klein's was, as Thomas Purvis has noted, a 6.5 mm "long rifle" that had the barrel cut off to carbine length...and that, by doing so, the progressive rifling used in the long rifle was rendered highly inaccurate...and therefore the Klein's version of C2766 was physically incapable of the degree of accuracy necessary to prove EITHER the WC scenario [aka the "fairy tale"] OR the shots/hits depicted in the West survey, which Mr. Purvis so often cites. So if there is a bit of truth to the data recorded in the West survey...AND the shots were fired from a Mannlicher-Carcano with serial number C2766--a "short rifle, " as described by Mr. Purvis as being highly accurate...THEN that would at least explain the anomalies in the photos of the serial number stampings...that there were [AT LEAST] two [if not more] M-C rifles with serial number C2766 which were IN CUSTODY of the DPD/SS/FBI or some other police entity. And if that was to be the case, I can see how the expert "examination" of two rifles could "prove" what a certain rifle did or didn't do, ballistically...and, since BOTH rifles had the same serial number, the attributes of one could be ascribed to the other...making the testimony of the firearms experst essentially true, while still being a total deception. In other words, I could say that {short rifle} C2766 was capable of the shots at Z313 [and beyond]...and because of the serial number being the same, "imply" that this capability was true of the Klein's rifle. I believe that con men of old referred to deception of this nature as "the old shell game." AND...since the "parentage" of "short rifle" C2766 is unknown, it IS possible that LHO might have had a hand in assembling it...and leaving a palm print on the underside of the barrel...YET the gun, technically, is otherwise NOT tied to Oswald, because it's NOT the Hidell gun from Klein's. [Confusing enough for you yet??]...But the serial number allows the "short rifle" to be sold to the public as the same gun. So the key to the assassination, then, becomes...what was the source of the C2766 "short rifle," which COULD make the lone gunman story come true [when the Klein's rifle COULDN'T?] And with LHO's knowledge that the Klein's gun was horribly inaccurate, why would he go ahead and order it, whether to kill Walker, JFK, or even just prairie dogs? I'm just a person asking questions, and trying to fill in holes and gaps in the logic surrounding LHO and the Klein's rifle. I don't have an agenda here. It just seems to me that, if LHO knew that the Klein's rifle was inaccurate--as he apparently knew--then he'd have no reason to bring it to the TSBD, and LHO as assassin is ruled out. And even if he knew where to get the accurate "short rifle," why would he want one with the exact serial number of the one purchased from Klein's...which, if used in the assassination [as it apparently was], would automatically be linked by that serial number to the Klein's rifle, and then to Hidell/Oswald? The only way that last scenario would make sense--to a sane person--would be that either LHO had a death wish, or LHO wasn't the shooter, and had no idea that the "short rifle" with the serial number exactly matching his Klein's gun would be found in the TSBD [assuming it actually was found there]. I tried the "search" function on the forum, but I was unable to make it work for me...but I seem to recall sometime in the distant past reading that General Edwin Walker might have had access to some "elite" Mannlicher-Carcanos directly after WWII. Can anyone head me in the right direction to find that thread?

Boy, I'd love for Jim Root to add a comment or two to this thread. Jim looks upon the shooting at Walker as a hostile act by LHO; I'm beginning to see it as just the opposite...a set-up event with two purposes: (1) to demonstrate the inaccuracy of the cutoff long rifle ordered from Klein's, as well as (2) to plant the thought that, even in right-wing nut country, Walker's life was in jeopardy. So I'd like to explore just where Oswald--and his co-conspirator(s)--might have obtained the highly accurate "short rifle" with serial number C2766 to substitute for the Klein's cut-off long rifle with serial number C2766. Because if someone provided LHO with a "ringer" for the actual Klein's rifle, then they become an accessory to whatever LHO did with that rifle...do they not? Again, I'd like to raise the idea, previously stated on this forum, that Walker himself may have had access to some Carcanos. That might then raise the possibility that Walker was involved in the conspiracy, which might better explain why the whole Walker shooting thing was raised so quickly after the assassination. The late Gerry Hemming, always cryptic in his answers to some questions--meaning that the questioner hadn't, in Hemming's view, done enough research--steered me toward Empire in Montreal as the source of the recovered Carcano...but then suggested I direct my attention toward French intelligence in Montreal for the answers. Whether Gerry was yankin' my chain or not... as Tom Purvis suggests, the rifle capable of making the shots from the 6th floor of the TSBD was certainly NOT the sawed-off long rifle Klein's was selling. So, assuming the M-C found in the TSBD was the rifle used in the assassination, it certainly couldn't have been the one Alek Hidell ordered from Klein's. SO FROM WHERE DID THE "short rifle" in police custody COME?? And what happened to the Klein's [cut-down] rifle? Or is THAT why there are two photos in evidence with the same serial number, but in different stampings? Does the government actually have TWO Carcanos in custody? [i'm about to convince myself that they do!]

Tom, I apologize for my improper use of the term "carbine" when I most definitely meant "short rifle." Thanks for clearing that up. Now, about something you mentioned in post #8: CE 1331 Note what CE 1331 says...that the scope itself could be acquired right in Dallas, at Dave's House of Guns, 2544 Elm...which is how many blocks on Elm from the TSBD ?? So I would suppose that LHO may have ordered the Carcano from Klein's (1) because he knew where he could obtain either a short rifle, or a barrel for a short rifle; AND/OR (2) because he wanted the scope MOUNT, not necessarily the scope itself. A personal story re: scopes and mounts...When Dad died, one of the his guns I acquired was his Marlin 39A .22 LA. Over the years of plinking and squirrel hunting, Dad had lost the rear sight ramp. So the gun had remained a closet dust collector for me for a number of years. Then, as my eyesight started getting a bit poorer, I decided that the 4X scope that had been mounted on another gun of mine might make the 39A a potent squirrel gun again. But none of the local gun shops carried a Weaver-style scope mount for an older [c. 1950] 39A. Finally found the mount in stock when a Bass Pro Shop opened near me, and I had a local gunsmith mount the scope. And now I have a reliably accurate squirrel gun that's been in the family since new. The point I'm attempting to make is that, in 1963, the MC wasn't exactly the most popular ex-mil rifle around...which would make the availability of accessory items fairly scarce. But since the scope itself could be found in Dallas--within blocks of where LHO was eventually to work--perhaps it was the scope MOUNT that sent LHO to Klein's...and the CIA running for cover, after-the-fact. Make sense?

Since Mr. Purvis hasn't responded [and Tom, please forgive my improper usage of the term "carbine" when I should've used "short rifle"!], I want to invite responses from others on this topic. With the information Mr. Purvis has provided regarding LHO's knowledge that the cut-down rifle from Klein's was an inaccurate weapon, does this not also raise the possibility that the shot taken, alleged by LHO, at Walker was not a case of attempted murder, but merely for demonstration purposes? I once read on this forum that Walker may have had access to some Mannlicher-Carcano rifles originally reserved for an elite Italian military unit...but I don't have that information at hand at the moment. If allowed to speculate...might it not be possible that when LHO allegedly "buried" the [inaccurate] Klein's Carcano [possibly in a predetermined spot], the gun he "dug up" later might have been the more-accurate short rifle that was found in the TSBD? Or is this too wild and fanciful an explanation to be entertained?

In the thread "SOUTHPAW," Mr. Purvis posted testimony that indicated that LHO knew that the shortened "long rifle" Mannlicher-Carcanos, such as the ones sold as "carbines" by Klein's Sporting Goods, were inaccurate and virtually worthless, due to the removal of a critical portion of the "progressive" rifling that initially made them accurate. And Mr. Purvis implies that the C2766 carbine that allegedly "did the deed" from the TSBD, was a "true" carbine and was therefore accurate, at least out to 100 yards or so. That begs the question: Could it be that the Walker shooting, which missed its intended target, was merely for the "purpose" of demonstrating [to someone, anyway] that the rifle from Klein's was as inaccurate as ........ , and therefore unsuitable for LHO's "mission," whatever it might have been? In other words, was the Walker incident possibly an intentional miss, to demonstrate the need for an "actual" carbine rather than a "sawed-off" POS for LHO's "assignment"? Just something to think about. But it might explain how Walker "knew" that it was LHO who fired in his direction...something that, IMHO, has never been adequately explained. [imagine the conversation went something like: "Why, with that rifle you couldn't hit me from right across the street!" And of course, he didn't, either.]

To summarize my understanding of the testimony cited, Marguerite Oswald and Mrs. Murrett say that LHO was left-handed...while Robert Oswald, John Pic, and Marina insist that LHO was right-handed...and Mr. Murrett never paid enough attention to know one way or the other. And I like where you're headed with the info on Klein's and the Klein's-acquired Carcano. Obviously, a "carbine" acquired from Klein's, with a cut-off barrel, wouldn't be accurate enough to do what is alleged to have been done...so you're implying that LHO had a source for a SECOND Carcano, a "true" carbine, that just "happened" to carry the same serial number as the Klein's rifle? Hmmm...wonder what that "second source" might've been...and how many Carcanos this second source must've had, in order to have one on which the serial numbers match. [Maybe the same source where LHO acquired the USMC-ordered ammo for the Carcano?] The plot thickens...

Tom, I agree with your assessment. I just haven't seen anyone produce conclusive evidence, beyond heresay, that Oswald was left-eye dominant. But it WOULD explain why the scope on C2766 was mounted the way it was. At this point, though, I've seen no onw who would've been in a position to have known state unequivocably that LHO either fired left-handed, or was left-eye dominant. The scope on C2766 was set up for a left-eye dominant shooter; that's pretty clear. I just want to determine conclusively that the shooter it was set up for, was LHO. Haven't seen that evidence yet. [And I'm still having doubts about the Klein's evidence...still some fishy stuff there, like the money order serial number being out-of-sequence, IMHO, that makes the "official" story of LHO's rifle procurement hard to believe.] For the most part, I'm with you, Tom...just seeking the evidence to prove you're right. I'm hoping that if anyone has photos [of LHO firing a rifle left-handed, for example] or can cite actual evidence, this thread might prod them to come forward with it.

Gratz has a valid point here. Sirhan WAS firing a gun in the pantry where RFK was shot; it's simply an impossibility for a bullet fired from in front of RFK to have entered the right mastoid process from the rear [talk about yer "magic bullet!!!]. Yet in LHO's case, even the Dallas police chief concluded that no one could definitively place Oswald in the sixth floor window with a rifle--either firing left-handed OR right-handed--at the exact moment shots were fired at JFK.

Denis, thanks for that photo. It appears to me that the photo shows a certain Marine in a right-handed shooting position. Does anyone have any real evidence that Oswald ever shot left-handed? If so, I'd love to see it. While I tend to side with Tom Purvis' explanation of many other aspects of the JFK shooting, I still haven't seen evidence to support the contention that Oswald ever fired a bolt-action rifle left-handed. And while that explanation WOULD explain the orientation of the scope on C2766, supporting evidence aside from heresay is simply lacking, at least at this time. I would agree that Oswald had the skills necessary to make three shots at 100 yards or less in 8-9 seconds. But as Bill points out, we still can't prove that Oswald was the triggerman. And even Mr. Purvis mentioned that a shot from a building on another corner of the Elm and Houston intersection couldn't be absolutely ruled out. SO...much as I'd like to believe that Oswald shot the M-C left-handed, and put the seeming incongruities of the rifle and scope to rest, I'm still looking for the evidence to allow us to do that. "...and maybe the real assassin was left handed."

Tom, This somewhat confirms what I had wondered about, but not conclusively. While I have no reason to doubt Mr. Ayoob, in all fairness one would still have to consider his "testimony" about LHO's right- or left-handed shooting tendancies to be mere heresay, and, as they said on the old Perry Mason TV show, inadmissable. Now, if we could come up with evidence that Oswald actually fired his rifle from a left-handed position--perhaps a photograph of Oswald holding a rifle in his normal firing position, perhaps corroborating testimony of someone who served with Oswald and who witnessed Oswald's actual use of a rifle, then I'd say you have something more than a theory. But for now, it's looking like a pretty good theory, and one that could explain the reason that right-handed shooters had such difficulty using the scope in the manner it was mounted on Mannlicher-Carcano C2766.

Duncan, if you're referring to the car in the foreground in your frames from the Hughes film, you're mistaken. Rambler station wagons from 1956 thru at least the 1962 model years [with the exception of 1961-up Rambler American subcompacts] had the C-pillar--the pillar behind the rear door--slanted rearward. From a 1959 Rambler sales brochure. The C-pillar on the car in Hughes photos slants forward. On a Rambler in these years, the rear door had a vent wing behind the window on the rear doors, and the wing was triangular, with the point at the bottom. It was the 1963 year models when the C-pillars changed to the opposite slant, as the one in the photo.

Bill, any evidentiary value of the mobile crime scene better known as SS-100-X was lost on Monday, November 25, 1963 when the limo was taken to Hess & Eisenhardt in Cincinnati and was essentially stripped. So while it IS a crime scene, it is one in name only since that date. Kinda like Elm Street in Dallas after repaving and curb restriping.

[duplicate post deleted]

Jack, I think I understand what Tom is saying. And his analysis of the survey data is consistent with the conclusion that there were three shots fired from the 6th floor of the TSBD...yet it also puts the lie to the WC's "official" conclusion What I'm getting out of Tom's analysis of the survey data vs. the WC testimony is that, more or less, the first shot impact point was consistent in all the surveys. From there is what gets tricky. The FBI, in "setting the record straight," comes up with a 2nd shot location--out of thin air, apparently--to "replace" the shot at Z313. Unfortunately for them, that pesky Z313 impact is pretty hard to ignore. Meanwhile, the 3rd shot remains located at 4+95, or the Altgens position, according to the FBI...same as in the SS survey. Enter Specter and the Magic Bullet Theory...suddenly, we have shot #1 as the "magic bullet"; then "imaginary" shot #2 at 4+42.5 becomes "the shot that missed" [but if it missed, how did the FBI locate that impact point...the impact with NOTHING?]. Then, through sleight of hand, the Z313 shot suddenly became shot #3, even though the actual shot #3 at the Altgens location--4+95--never went away. In the WC "fairy tale" it was simply ignored...even though both the SS and the FBI survey data included it! And since the shot at the Altgens location was ignored in the official WC report, in the collective mind of the public it also "went away," because it was never part of the conclusions of the WC...even though, as I just stated, both the FBI and the SS surveys acknowledged the 4+95 impact location as fact! Or as Spector & Co., in the role as the Wonderful Wizards of Oz would have said to those who may have discovered the shot at the Altgens location, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! [Or the shot after Z313!] The Mighty Oz has spoken!" And because so many truth-seekers have listened to Spector & Co., "rabbit holes" of mystery and intrigue have appeared to swallow up many an otherwise righteous researcher. The survey data was there all the time, buried in the minutae of the evidence but missing from the conclusions, as the WC defenders have for years asked the old Groucho Marx question, "Who are you gonna believe--me, or your own two eyes?" So Jack, you are correct that Tom's analysis "seem to clearly negate the official story"; yet it's amazingly consistent with three shots from the 6th floor of the TSBD, and three hits from behind. But I don't think it proves that "all shots were fired from the 6th floor window"; it only shows that the three that hit JFK were most likely fired from there. It doesn't explain the SS agents' use of the terms "fusillade" or "flurry" of shots [hard for me to imagine 3 shots in 8 seconds being characterized as a "fusillade" or a "flurry," IMHO]. Apparently those other shots [the ones that made up the "flurry"], from wherever, simply missed everything and everyone.

I'm not a moderator, nor do I play one on TV...neither do I desire the position. BUT...after three pages of this alleged discussion, I'd like to know how it relates to a clearer understanding of the JFK assassination, or what new information it brings to light. All I see is a urination contest--to use more polite terms that I was originally thinking--that is unnecessarily wasting the bandwidth of this site [think about that the next time you get a "site unavailable--bandwidth exceeded" error message when trying to connect to this discussion board]. If you folks are simply out to flame one another, I suggest you confine it to PM's, and save the forums here for those of us who are serious about either learning something or asking questions. As a politically incorrect pundit once expressed it, "Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics: even if you win, you're still retarded." Can we agree to rise to a higher level...for the sake of the cause here, which last I knew was the discussion of the JFK assassination...?

I don't know what this "panning uphill/downhill" stuff may or may not say about Z-film alteration. BUT...could it possibly just be the result of Abe Zapruder being lousy at panning with his camera? Try this while sitting in front of your computer...tilt your head slightly to the left, and then simulate panning a camera from left to right. With your head tilted to the left, isn't the natural tendancy, when attempting to pan horizontally, to actually move"uphill"? So maybe old Abe, who claimed to be unsteady, unconsciously had his head tilted slightly to the left as he was panning...thus the "uphill"motion. And since there's no clear motion picture of the position of Zapruder's head, then NO, I can't prove that's what happened. But I can't prove it didn't, either. Lots of still photographers manage to cut off subjects' heads and feet in their work; it's not too big a stretch to wonder if Abe wasn't just a bit of klutz with a movie camera, is it?