Nick Bartetzko

Very good Ian, that's it....perhaps anyone who has a copy might take a quick scan and make sure Hill is discussed as I recalled just as another check....

Hi Larry,

Unfortunately, I don't have my copy any more, I gave away most of my books on the assassination a few years ago to budding researchers. I do recall that O'Toole did have some odd encounters with the people he tracked down (R.D. Lewis sticks out in my memory), but I can't recall much about Hill. The book is certainly an interesting read whether you believe the voice analysis stuff

The index shows Hills name repeatedly. It's a bit late for me to read all the pages. If you want me to do so, just let me know

Nick

I have only a vague recollection of this and could not find anything on the forum via a search. Quite some time ago, I believe Jack White mentioned that Carolyn Arnold was still working in the Dallas area and had a different last name. When she retired, she said she would reveal more details about her seeing LHO in the lunch room between 1215 - 1225pm. IIRC, Arnold has been interviewed a number of times on this subject. Does anybody recall Jack White's comments and does anyone know the whereabouts of Caroyn Arnold...or is my memory off on this?

Nick

The beauty of the JFK investigation is that some folks never let facts get in the way of their opinions. The coverage on this has been abysmal. Oswald went to the Soviet Union...he was a communist....he left his wedding ring....so therefore he did it. What a sad commentary on "historical truth"

Mr. Speer

Your opinion, sir. What do you think would be more accurate, the testimony of a young man months after the occurrence of an event, or that same man's recollections fifteen or twenty-nine years after the same event?

Then, consider how his recollections would be affected by the considerable pressure brought to bear on this man by forces intent on him conforming to the "official" story of how that event occurred. Do you think this might not alter his memory of that event, considering the amount of stress he was under during that event?

From the ARRB interview of Nurse Audrey Bell, 04/14/97:

"-Although only in Trauma Room One for 3-5 minutes, she did see the head wound. After asking Dr.

Perry “where is the wound,” she said he turned the President’s head slightly to the President’s anatomical

left, so that she could see a right rear posterior head wound, which she described as occipital in both her

oral remarks, and in her drawings;

-She said she could see brain and spinal fluid coming out of the wound, but could not tell what type of

brain tissue it was;

-She said it was her recollection that the right side of the President’s head, and the top of his head,

were intact, which is why she had to ask Dr. Perry where the wound was in the first place."(04/l 4/97 Summary of ARRB interview)

Robert, Pat Speer is well aware of Nurse Bell's remarks before the ARRB but dismisses them as vagaries of a faded memory. It's too bad Pat is unable to apply that same reasoning to his own analysis of Carrico and others. Pat knows, the tremendous pressure Perry and other Dallas personnel were under to conform their memories to the official version. The worst offender may be Dr. Jenkins,who saw oozing cerebellum on Nov 22 and wrote about it on that day, but saw only cerebellar tissue after visiting the National Archives in 1988. Baxter at first said occipital bones were missing. That changed quickly. And of course Perry may be the most hardened of them all. See his letters to Brad Parker in First on the Scene. The earliest recollections from Dallas are the best, and after pressure to change rendered, IMO, the later comments worthless. Only those doctors and nurses whose testimony has remained unchanged should be given serious study. At least that's my opinion.

Daniel, could you elaborate a bit on what Perry said in those letters? In Weisberg, he mentioned the "ring of bruising" and that he wiped blood from the neck wound. It appears he got a clear look at the wound.

Thanks,

Nick

Thanks Pat...

Very nice work, David. I've never seen that video before. Would be interesting to see those same Z frames analyzed in the 35 mm format

Nick

Maybe this one? (12-23-1991)

http://www.ebay.com/....&prg=1005&rk=1

Edited to add: I guess this is not the issue: http://jfk.hood.edu/...eek/Item 01.pdf

Michael

Unfortunately, no. I have this issue and checked it last night.

BTW, my Mom's Mom was a Hogan.

Joe

Joe, there's a slim possibly I may have that issue. If you get stuck, let me know. It would be somewhat time consuming to try and locate

Nick

Frankie, I was going through the dates again and it was more likely about 1993 or 1994 when I last met Mr Denlea. As to getting a definitive answer from the firm, do you think it would be very helpful if Doug Horne would also get involved as a former member of the AARB? I don't know if he would be willing, though. Thanks for your work on this. I never thought you would be able to get any information.

Nick

Pat, I wasn't aware that office had been shut down. You do indeed live in Siberia as Simi Valley is wayyy out there Mr Denlea was based at the Home Office at 4680 Wilshire Blvd. He would certainly have visited the Simi Valley office and had lunch there on many occasions. The last time I saw him we sat 5 feet apart in the commercial division office in LA where I worked. That was probably in the late 90's. At that time, I had no idea he was married to the Admiral's daughter. I just learned of that within the last few years at this forum. Had I known, I would have asked him privately about it. Who knows what that would have led to. I am wondering if the Illig files were really destroyed about 20 years ago, or were they destroyed later than that by the family's request after the AARB contact. I find it hard to believe those records would be destroyed without the family's knowledge or consent.

Frankie, I think the information from Admiral Burkley would have been extremely valuable to serious JFK researchers.

Leo Denlea Jr was the CEO at Farmers Insurance in Los Angeles where I also worked. I met him a few times and certainly had the impression he was a very private man. He also had a reputation of being quiet spoken and reasonable. I believe he simply asked his wife to change her mind as he did not want his family name associated with the assassination. Too bad there was no followup as there may have been the possibility of another change of mind. Sad that personal considerations win out over such important historical information.

This is an excellent thread. One additional piece solidifies the neck wound as one of entrance. Dr Perry confirmed to Weisberg in 1966 that the wound had a "ring of bruising". It's in Weisberg's book, Post Mortem

Interesting about the 4th floor. I believe ATF agent Frank Ellsworth was involved in a search about 130 pm and said a Manlicher Carcano was found either on the 4th or 5th floor, not the same floor as the shells.

Hi Nick..

I believe you meant to say THE MC, not "A" MC....

and when you add the number of 5th floor references from Sawyer... and what he and 2 others did between 12:34 and 12:37...

the 5th floor gets more interesting..

Former AFT agent Frank Ellsworth, who participated in a *second* search of

the book depository conducted after 1:30 p.m. on November 22, 1963,

according to a Secret Service document, confirms that the Mannlicher-Carcano was found by a DPD detective on the fourth or fifth

floor of the building, "not on the same floor as the cartridges." He

adds: "I remember we talked about it, and figured that he must have run

out from the stairwell and dropped it as he was running downstairs."

Yes, David. Thanks for the emphasis on that. I had not thought about the 2 rifle issue for some time. If true, how ironic that THE Manlicher was found AND Roger Craig's Mauser, with the word Mauser stamped on it, was also found. No need to switch rifles..one just disappears after a few days

Nick

Interesting about the 4th floor. I believe ATF agent Frank Ellsworth was involved in a search about 130 pm and said a Manlicher Carcano was found either on the 4th or 5th floor, not the same floor as the shells.

I am unable to source this information. IIRC, Gerry Hemming mentioned in a thread or in Noel Twyman's book, that the "team" had a key to the TSBD and entered around 300 am and stayed on the 7th floor. After the assassination, they repelled down the elevator shaft via ropes and escaped through the rear entrance. This would make some sense as to the elevator being inoperable for a while.

That is not Witt.

Jack

This is not a complete document, but I did go to the trouble of including some rather pertinent data.

Home/Archive/Documents/JFK Assassination Documents/JFK Documents - Central Intelligence Agency/HSCA Segregated CIA Collection/HSCA Segregated CIA Collection, Box 40/

NARA Record Number: 104-10110-10377

BIOGRAPHICAL DATA: CAPEHART, CLAUDE BARNES

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=14169

Birth: 15 Ocotber 1924, Omeka, Oklahoma

Marital Status: Robert Mary Nee: BALTEY b. 2 Dec

1922, Winsboro, La.; Address: Same as Subject.

Parents: Capehart, Henry Hayes b. 15 Oct 1876, Stamps,

Arkansas; Deceased.

Capehart, Laura Jefferson; Nee: GARBROUGH;

b. 1 April, 1873, Memphis Tennessee; Deceased

Children: Capehart, Neal Henry; b. 11 Aug. 1953 Bakersfield,

California; Add: Box 7011 Reno, Nev.

Military: September 43-July 46, U.S. Army Sergeant # 39145469

Claude Barnes Capehart aka Claude Buster Capehart

Social Security 566-22-5896

Date Added: June 1973

I believe there is a photo of someone in front of the TSBD who looks like Claude Capehart. I have been unable to find it, but if I recall, it bears a resemblance to these embassy photos. Anyone have a copy of that photo and can post it? This Capehart thread is interesting and Jim D did a story on Claude Capehart in his publication Probe V4 #1 entitled "The Capehart Caper"

I couldn't upload the Jim Murray photo but here's link to it on Robin Unger's great website:

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=41&pos=18

--Thomas

That's it. Thanks. Capehart has always been of interest to me as well as Nagell. The sheriff's office in California had a photo of Capehart which they misplaced and they were unable to locate it. I was promised a call if they located it, but never heard back.

That is not Witt.

Jack

This is not a complete document, but I did go to the trouble of including some rather pertinent data.

Home/Archive/Documents/JFK Assassination Documents/JFK Documents - Central Intelligence Agency/HSCA Segregated CIA Collection/HSCA Segregated CIA Collection, Box 40/

NARA Record Number: 104-10110-10377

BIOGRAPHICAL DATA: CAPEHART, CLAUDE BARNES

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=14169

Birth: 15 Ocotber 1924, Omeka, Oklahoma

Marital Status: Robert Mary Nee: BALTEY b. 2 Dec

1922, Winsboro, La.; Address: Same as Subject.

Parents: Capehart, Henry Hayes b. 15 Oct 1876, Stamps,

Arkansas; Deceased.

Capehart, Laura Jefferson; Nee: GARBROUGH;

b. 1 April, 1873, Memphis Tennessee; Deceased

Children: Capehart, Neal Henry; b. 11 Aug. 1953 Bakersfield,

California; Add: Box 7011 Reno, Nev.

Military: September 43-July 46, U.S. Army Sergeant # 39145469

Claude Barnes Capehart aka Claude Buster Capehart

Social Security 566-22-5896

Date Added: June 1973

I believe there is a photo of someone in front of the TSBD who looks like Claude Capehart. I have been unable to find it, but if I recall, it bears a resemblance to these embassy photos. Anyone have a copy of that photo and can post it? This Capehart thread is interesting and Jim D did a story on Claude Capehart in his publication Probe V4 #1 entitled "The Capehart Caper"

I couldn't upload the Jim Murray photo but here's link to it on Robin Unger's great website:

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=41&pos=18

--Thomas

That is not Witt.

Jack

This is not a complete document, but I did go to the trouble of including some rather pertinent data.

Home/Archive/Documents/JFK Assassination Documents/JFK Documents - Central Intelligence Agency/HSCA Segregated CIA Collection/HSCA Segregated CIA Collection, Box 40/

NARA Record Number: 104-10110-10377

BIOGRAPHICAL DATA: CAPEHART, CLAUDE BARNES

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=14169

Birth: 15 Ocotber 1924, Omeka, Oklahoma

Marital Status: Robert Mary Nee: BALTEY b. 2 Dec

1922, Winsboro, La.; Address: Same as Subject.

Parents: Capehart, Henry Hayes b. 15 Oct 1876, Stamps,

Arkansas; Deceased.

Capehart, Laura Jefferson; Nee: GARBROUGH;

b. 1 April, 1873, Memphis Tennessee; Deceased

Children: Capehart, Neal Henry; b. 11 Aug. 1953 Bakersfield,

California; Add: Box 7011 Reno, Nev.

Military: September 43-July 46, U.S. Army Sergeant # 39145469

Claude Barnes Capehart aka Claude Buster Capehart

Social Security 566-22-5896

Date Added: June 1973

I believe there is a photo of someone in front of the TSBD who looks like Claude Capehart. I have been unable to find it, but if I recall, it bears a resemblance to these embassy photos. Anyone have a copy of that photo and can post it? This Capehart thread is interesting and Jim D did a story on Claude Capehart in his publication Probe V4 #1 entitled "The Capehart Caper"

Well, I did the first stage of something that Craig Lamson has demanded others do, but was unwilling to do

himself. Namely, I put my money, time, and effort where my mouth is and conducted experiments in Dealey

Plaza this past fall.

It is likely that the first time a Bell & Howell Director's Model camera was used to expose KODACHROME film

from the pedestal in Dealey Plaza was on November 22, 1963 at approximately 12:30 in the afternoon.

This past November 22, 2010 it is certain that I shot the very LAST footage from that same location at that

precise time with that same model equipment using the same film stock that will ever be shot from there and

able to be processed! I shot 6 rolls of KODACHROME over a 2.5 hour interval starting at 11:45am and continuing

nearly non-stop, except for changing film rolls, until just before 2:00pm, including of course during the time of

the original event. I shot at both regular speed and in slow motion.

The majority of the footage came out usable. I am uncertain as to exactly what I will learn from it that might be

useful, if anything.

But, I at least seized that last opportunity to get the footage.

Below shooting from pedestal with Scott Myers (back to camera)

A few years ago, I sent Rich DellaRosa an unopened Kodachrome that had been stored in my garage for years. It was from a dear friend who was a photography buff. I am hoping you were able to use that film and, if not, might have access to it through Rich's wife or children should you need it in the future.

Very sad news. I am fortunate to have been a member of Rich's forum and gotten to know him. RIP

Nick

From "JFK" wherein the Paines are called the Williams:

I wonder about the Williams' [sic]. Just where did the first description of Oswald come from at 12:44? No one knows. They claimed it was Brennan's, but his description came after 1 PM. Who called? Somehow the FBI's been tapping the Williams' [sic] and picks up a call between Bell Helicopter and Janet's phone, an unidentified voice saying "We both know who's responsible." Who called? Why's the Bureau been tapping them?

In his testimony to the WC, Michael Paine denied ever making that remark. In his attempt to reclaim America, VB attributes the statement "We both know who's responsible" to an informant (who he says was mistaken or made it up) not to an electronically recorded phone call.

VB essentially repeats what is said on the McAdams' site debunking "JFK":

Moreover, there never was any "tap" on the Paines's phone, from the FBI or anyone else. The facts are these: a Dallas police officer, Paul Barger, contacted the FBI and reported that an informant had overheard a November 23, 1963, telephone call between two particular phone numbers, BL 3-1628 in Irving, Texas (Ruth Paine's home phone number) and CR 5-5211 in Arlington, Texas (Bell Helicopter, Michael Paine's workplace), in which a male voice was heard saying "that he felt sure Lee Harvey Oswald had killed the President, but did not feel Oswald was responsible, and further stated, 'We both know who is responsible.'"(7) When contacted again, Barger was unable to recall who his source had been, blaming the volume of leads received that weekend.(8) (The source seems to have never been identified.)

Does anyone know who is right, Oliver or Vincent? (Hey, can you imagine the two of them running into each other at a LA cocktail party?) Any documentation would be appreciated far beyond words adequate to describe the appreciation!

The first report that 'Oswald' had been in the USSR and a 'communist' came to the press from a call from Bell Helicopter.

There is a whole chapter on this issue in "Coincidence or Conspiracy," edited by Bud Festerwald and Michael Ewing, which if I recall correctly, originally attributed the quote "we know who did it" to a window washer in the Bell Hell janitoral department, but additional release of records indicated it was from a phone tap.

They knew Michael Paine was at one end of the line but not sure who was at the other end - narrowing it down to either Ruth Paine or Michael Paine's father, Lyman Paine, the founder of the Trotskite party of USA. Some have even speculated it was a conversation between Michael Paine and his step-father Arthur Young, the inventor of the Bell Hellicopter 47-A and patron of Michael's job in the design department of Bell Hell.

If it was a phone tap, as speculated, it would have been a tap initiated by the Security Department of Bell Hell, directed by former Nazi General Dornberger, who came into the USA with his cohort, Weiner Von Braun and Project Paperclip.

If someone has a handy copy of "Coincidence or Conspiracy" they can fill us in on exacatly what the documents say.

BK

I do have that book and did a quick search on the Paines. The pertinent information is on pages 215-216. To paraphrase, On 2-11-76, based largely on the effort of WC scholar Kevin Walsh, the National Archives declassified a page of WC Document # 206. This page appears to be based on an FBI wiretap log. Page 66 of that document refers to a confidential informant who overheard a phone call placed from Michael Paine's office and his home. The book concludes it was likely between Michael Paine and his wife.

The informant ....."advised that the male voice was heard to comment that he felt sure that Lee Harvey Oswald had killed the President but did not feel Oswald was responsible and further stated, We both know who is responsible."

Further, in the book, it was stated that in the spring of 1976 it was reported that it was a Dallas telephone repair man who was the informant.

That's all I could find right now.

Nick

Kind of makes one think that just perhaps a field FBI Agent just may know exactly how a "wadcutter" entry as opposed to a normal entry would look like.

Very helpful, Tom. Thank you

Nick

And, since Jethro could find no evidence of anyone hiding in the trunk of the Presidential Limo, he had to assume that there must be another, yet unresolved, answer to exactly how a bullet which was fired on a downward angle, could strike the human skin in an upward angle of attack.

Thus creating an "abrasion collar" at the bottom boundary of the wound of entry while also "punching" out a nice neat 4mm X 7mm wound of entry.

Of course, this still left poor ole "Jethro" in a quandry.

Which centered around exactly how it was that a bullet which was fired on a downward angle of approximately 18-degrees down, could enter the body on a base first upward angle of attack, yet thereafter continue to penetrate into the body on a downward angle of from 45 degrees to 60 degrees downward.

Hope that answered your question Nick!

Tom

Thanks much for your continued posts. Although you have explained all this in detail, the concept of an lower abrasion collar vs a shot from above is difficult to comprehend and accept. Are you saying that depending on the rotation at the moment of impact, it could also have been possible to leave an upper abrasion collar?

Nick

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The hole at the edge of the collar, which went through both the outer coat and the inner liner in an irregular fashion. is the bullet entrance hole for the third/last/final shot which occured down in front of James Altgens at a time when JFK was bent fully forward with his face down and turned to the side.

The bullet penetrated through the slightly raised coat collar on a tangent, exited to strike JFK at the base of the neck in the edge of the hairline, and therafter penetrated through the soft tissue of the neck before striking the skull in the EOP region.

Thanks for your detailed response . It is very much appreciated. I only recall having seen photos of the tie, shirt lower hole in the jacket. Is (was) there a photo of a higher hole in the jacket?

Thanks

Nick

duplicate post deleted

Next, when we know that either a "paper punch" or a flat-nosed "wadcutter" bullet creates an entry point which has relatively clean cut edges, and we recognize that CE#399 has only one flat end, and that flat end measures the exact dimensions as to the entry wound into the back of JFK, and that entry wound had relatively clean-cut edges, then even our "Jethro Bodine" sixth grade children can figure out exactly which end of CE399 struck JFK and is responsible for the back entry wound.

I know little about ballistics. Could you or "Jethro" just answer a couple of questions for me....1) what is the likelihood of a tumbling bullet leaving what appears to be a clean 4x7mm wound? 2) wouldn't any tumbling bullet leave a much larger wound, more in keeping with the length of the bullet itself?

I know little about ballistics.

Well!

While I dig out the answer to your question, perhaps a little comparison would be of benefit.

P.S. It was long ago reviewed by one with the full credentials of the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation (OSBI) and a full member of AFTE.

Tom

I reviewed the document, photos etc. You research is meticulous and your theories are "persuasive". But you make a supposition that a tumbling bullet would leave as clean an entry wound (4x7mm) striking from the tail end vs the nose end and that is specifically what I do not understand. Are you saying that all tumbling bullets will leave sharp entry wounds? I will phrase it a different way. If a bullet is fired directly into a tree branch and begins to tumble/wobble, what factors (deflection, velocity?) affect whether that wobbling bullet would enter perfectly to match the precise 4 x 7mm measurement or leave a much larger wound indicative of a tumbling, wobbling object? If a bullet wobbles side to side, it would leave a larger wound and if it wobbles end over end, it would need to strike at a very precise point to leave a clean 4x7mm wound. I don't know any other way to phrase my questions. I don't recall you discussing the characteristics of tumbling bullets and what ballistics issues would determine a larger than normal wound vs a standard wound.

Nick

Next, when we know that either a "paper punch" or a flat-nosed "wadcutter" bullet creates an entry point which has relatively clean cut edges, and we recognize that CE#399 has only one flat end, and that flat end measures the exact dimensions as to the entry wound into the back of JFK, and that entry wound had relatively clean-cut edges, then even our "Jethro Bodine" sixth grade children can figure out exactly which end of CE399 struck JFK and is responsible for the back entry wound.

I know little about ballistics. Could you or "Jethro" just answer a couple of questions for me....1) what is the likelihood of a tumbling bullet leaving what appears to be a clean 4x7mm wound? 2) wouldn't any tumbling bullet leave a much larger wound, more in keeping with the length of the bullet itself?