Thomas Graves

Tommy, Under my scenario, if Lee Harvey Oswald had turned down Gerry Patrick Hemming's offer of double the price of his rifle to bring it to the TSBD on Friday, they would have selected some other Patsy -- possibly including Hemming himself. I say this because Hemming himself suggested it -- because Loran Hall was in Dallas on 11/22/1963, and he had in his possession Gerry Patrick Hemming's own rifle! This is actually part of the FBI record, and many here know the story very well. I believe that many Patsies had been pre-identified. Loran Hall himself was probably a possible Patsy; since the FBI could trace Hemming's rifle to Hall, and Hall was the guy who was in Dallas. Maybe Harry Dean was a possible Patsy as well -- Harry Dean himself suggested this to me, since Harry was close to Loran Hall, and also was a former Secretary for the FPCC in Chicago. This seems to me to be confirmed by Joseph Milteer's statement to Willie Somerset, namely, "They will pick up SOMEBODY within hours." Milteer didn't name the Patsy -- there were plenty to choose from, IMHO. HAPPY LABOR DAY, --Paul Trejo Didn't GPH have an alibi? Like, he was playing chess with his buddies in Miami and called someone as soon as he heard about the assassination? -- Tommy

[...] [deleted irrelevant,"chit chat" text] As noted in these photo's, the "sling keeper" can actually slide up or down through a hole which is in the nut portion of the screw/bolt & nut head assembly. Interesting thread. Too bad all of the photos have gone missing. I gather from the text that Purvis showed, photographically, why the "sling keeper" / "sling swivel" on Oswald's 40.2 inch MC looked the way it did in the backyard photos. -- Tommy

"[Crafard] was known to be close friends/crime associates with James (Sutton) Files who many believe was the shooter behind the fence on the grassy knoll.." That's interesting, Mike. Source? -- Tommy

Good point, Bob. Hadn't thought of that possibility. Regarding the "fakeness" of the photo, I watched a video on youtube years ago in which a former FBI (I believe) photo analyst pointed out some shadows or marks on the ground near Oswald's left foot (his left foot) which indicate forgery. I wish I could find that video. Maybe someone here knows what I'm talking about. -- Tommy

IMHO, the big difference between these two photos is that Oswald (left) has his entire body turned to his right, whereas Roscoe White (right) has his upper body "squared" to the camera. Therefore it's not fair to say that the overall "lean" of their bodies is the same. Did the person (Oswald?) who faked the photo on the right intentionally do so in a way that screamed "fake"? (Along the lines of having Oswald hold two ideologically incompatible "Communist" newspapers?) Or was he / she just grossly incompetent? [credit: DVP] -- Tommy

[...] The primary feature of my hypothesis -- which you seemed to have missed -- is that the assassination plotters were not painting Oswald as the shooter. But rather as an accomplice. For example, that he supplied the gun. Therefore it would be okay for him to be seen by witnesses during the shooting and caught outside in some photographs and films. The purpose of this being.... well, read the hypothesis again. It makes a lot of sense. It was the other conspiracy -- the government cover-up -- that made Oswald the shooter. Indeed the only shooter. So that there would be no conspiracy. In summary, the assassination plotters preferred that a conspiracy to be detected, whereas the government cover-up artists didn't. (Though I do believe the assassination plotters attempted to steer the direction of the government's response.) [...] Hi Sandy, Question: Are you saying it was "okay" for LHO to be outside, or he had to be outside (in order to be noticed / caught on film, "prove" a Castro-loving, Commied-up conspiracy, and justify the bombing of Cuba and / or Russia)? [it's interesting to speculate that LHO secretly took his gun to work that morning for one of Hemming's guys to buy, or that it was somehow smuggled into the TSBD (or perhaps just into the paper "evidentiary record") beforehand, or only after-the-fact, as part of the elaborate cover up / frame job. Some "researchers" claim that the "MC" visible in films and photos taken that day either wasn't a MC, or at least wasn't Oswald's / Hidell's MC. What do you think? Time now for some humour. Hypothetical Police Statement: "We believe that Oswald loaned his rifle to the assassin and said to him, 'I'm gonna go outside now and watch you kill JFK. Good luck!'" In your scenario, how could LHO have been plausibly tagged as a "co-conspirator" by the investigators if not for that rifle's being allegedly "found" in the TSBD, and it's being "traceable" to his PO Box? Because someone might fib and say he saw LHO acting as a "lookout"? Because someone saw him take a bottle of Coke up to the assassin?] BTW, if LHO was determined to have been just a co-conspirator, who would the authorities have said was the shooter? Joe Molina? Jack Dougherty? Or [place name here] .... ? And why wasn't "Oswald's co-conspirator" caught or even looked for? Because it was unnecessary as long they had the sniper's accomplice? -- Tommy EDIT: BTW, I'm just throwing out some ideas here, I don't claim to know the answers. Yet. Sandy, Under your "2-man commie conspiracy" scenario, things would have worked out a lot differently if Wesley B. Frazier had said within an hour of the assassination, "It couldn't have been Oswald because I saw him taking pictures / sipping from a full mug of very hot coffee with both hands on the front steps during the shooting! Why did he leave? Well, he did tell me on the way to work this morning that he's been wanting to see those movies they're showing at the Texas Theater, so maybe he went there. You know, with his mail order pistol that he bought under the name 'Hidell' because a boy likes to carry a gun?'" "Oddly-shaped package"? -- [The Daily Mail] "'Not for one minute do I think Lee was on his own.'" ? -- [WBF] Sounds like a limited hangout. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3326233/I-drove-Lee-Harvey-Oswald-book-depository-don-t-believe-shot-JFK-52-years-assassination-Oswald-s-friend-says-convinced-patsy-real-gunman-grassy-knoll.html -- Tommy

[...] The primary feature of my hypothesis -- which you seemed to have missed -- is that the assassination plotters were not painting Oswald as the shooter. But rather as an accomplice. For example, that he supplied the gun. Therefore it would be okay for him to be seen by witnesses during the shooting and caught outside in some photographs and films. The purpose of this being.... well, read the hypothesis again. It makes a lot of sense. It was the other conspiracy -- the government cover-up -- that made Oswald the shooter. Indeed the only shooter. So that there would be no conspiracy. In summary, the assassination plotters preferred that a conspiracy to be detected, whereas the government cover-up artists didn't. (Though I do believe the assassination plotters attempted to steer the direction of the government's response.) [...] Hi Sandy, Question: Are you saying it was "okay" for LHO to be outside, or he had to be outside (in order to be noticed / caught on film, "prove" a Castro-loving, Commied-up conspiracy, and justify the bombing of Cuba and / or Russia)? It's interesting to speculate that LHO secretly took his gun to work that morning for one of Hemming's guys to buy, or that it was somehow smuggled into the TSBD (or perhaps just into the paper "evidentiary record") beforehand, or only after-the-fact, as part of the elaborate cover up / frame job. Some "researchers" claim that the "MC" visible in films and photos taken that day either wasn't a MC, or at least wasn't Oswald's / Hidell's MC. What do you think? Time now for some humour. Hypothetical Police Statement: "We believe that Oswald loaned his rifle to the assassin and said to him, 'I'm gonna go outside now and watch you kill JFK. Good luck!'" In your scenario, how could LHO have been plausibly tagged as a "co-conspirator" by the investigators if not for that rifle's being allegedly "found" in the TSBD, and it's being "traceable" to his PO Box? Because someone might fib and say he saw LHO acting as a "lookout"? Because someone saw him take a bottle of Coke up to the assassin? BTW, if LHO was determined to have been just a co-conspirator, who would the authorities have said was the shooter? Joe Molina? Jack Dougherty? Or [place name here] .... ? Why wasn't "Oswald's co-conspirator" caught? Because it was unnecessary as long they had the sniper's accomplice? -- Tommy PS Did ya miss me? Hi Tommy, Yes, I did miss you! In fact I welcomed you back in another thread a day or two ago. Maybe you missed it. I wrote my hypothesis in response to a challenge issued by Lance Payette in Post 326, where he said: "I defy anyone to posit an elaborate pre-assassination and post-assassination conspiracy that includes the element of LHO standing on the front steps of the TBSD at the time of the assassination." As I recall, he found it unthinkable that LHO, as the designated patsy, would be allowed to walk around and be witnessed, photographed, or filmed outside the sniper's nest during the shooting. So I took up his challenge and wrote my hypothesis. What you see above is just part of my hypothesis, but it is the most pertinent part. In the part not quoted, I surmised that the assassination plotter's most important goal was to eliminate JFK so that a president more to their liking could take charge. And that it was an afterthought and icing on the cake if the could implicate the Soviets and/or Cubans. So, in answer to your question, it wasn't required for Oswald to be seen outside the snipers nest, but was acceptable... and in fact desirable. As for whether or not the Carcano was actually found in the TSBD, that's a good question. I do believe that the Mouser was found there. Maybe it was planted, along with the Carcano, in order to indicate a conspiracy. Or maybe the Mouser was actually used. I suspect the latter is true. I don't believe that the Carcano in the WC photos matches the one in the backyard photos. Because the former has a side-mount sling in the front and the latter a bottom-mount sling. (I can see it in the photo. And I'm not one to see things in photos, like Badge Man. etc.) I've seen no compelling evidence that Oswald took the Carcano to the TSBD, but that doesn't mean he didn't. As for how Oswald was supposed to have been tagged as a conspirator in my hypothesis... well, for one, I believe the plotters were sending signals to the DPD on how to locate Oswald. Maybe they didn't care whether the authorities charged him with being a shooter or an accomplice. They just wanted Oswald to be found in order to keep the authorities looking in the wrong direction. Even though I wrote the hypothesis for Lance's challenge, I admit that it has gotten me to think more seriously about it being a real possibility. Sandy, It seems that your evolving theory accommodates the idea of LHO's being either inside or outside, but not guilty or innocent. Only innocent. It's a good thing you didn't join Fetzer's and Cinque's "Oswald Innocence Campaign," because it seems as though they assumed that if Oswald was inside, he must be guilty. (lol) Bob Prudhomme and you seem to think that the bad guys wanted Oswald to be outside while someone else shot JFK with "Oswald's rifle." So that it would look like a commie conspiracy and we would invade Cuba. You seem to think that Oswald didn't know anything about the plot, didn't own the MC, and that someone else (Dougherty? Mac Wallace?) not only killed JFK, but set up LHO as a co-conspirator by planting a traceable-to-him rifle and encouraging him to go outside (by not preventing him from doing so) and watch the motorcade go by. But didn't even the scenario of "Oswald The Commie Lone Nut Assassin" almost take Lyndon Johnson to the brink of bombing Cuba and / or Russia? Or was that just a ruse, the result of someone's (Angleton's?) planting a "Oswald-Kostikov WW III virus" in order to prevent the plot from being uncovered, after the fact, by the investigators? Why would the bad guys think that a two-man commie "conspiracy" (including Oswald) would be necessary to implement that ruse, especially if the "6th floor commie sniper" (not Oswald because he was out front!) were to never be caught? Or did the mid level bad guys know that Angleton had planted that cover up "WW III virus," and tried to overcome it so that Cuba would be invaded? -- Tommy PS It's too bad Oswald's last name wasn't Schrodinger, instead.

Paul, You do know that Wes Riddle over at the JFK Assassination Forum and our erstwhile own Linda G-Z claimed to have found Jack Dougherty in Skaggs 16, don't you? Waiting with Shelley by the TSBD to be taken in for questioning. Someone else (?) claims to have spotted Detective W.E. Potts near them. There are a couple of cops close to them, too. From left to right: Bill Shelley, Detective W.E. Potts (?), Jack Dougherty [credit: Linda G-Z] [credit: Linda G-Z] Does anyone know the photo "Decker and Dougherty (?) 11/22/63" (above, right) came from? @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ [...] -- Tommy bumped, due to (hopefully) current interest in Dougherty

Hi Bob!, And believe-it-or-not, I'm starting to believe that the elusive J.E.D., who was a member of the "Crack" ROTC (rifled-up) company at his Sunset High School in 1940-1941, might have "dood da deed," himself. -- Tommy

Hi Bob!, Copied and pasted here from my last post: BTW, if LHO was determined to have been just a co-conspirator, who would the authorities have said was the shooter? Joe Molina? Jack Dougherty? Or [place name here] .... ? And why wasn't "Oswald's co-conspirator" caught or even looked for? Because it was unnecessary as long they had the sniper's accomplice? -- Tommy sun

[...] The primary feature of my hypothesis -- which you seemed to have missed -- is that the assassination plotters were not painting Oswald as the shooter. But rather as an accomplice. For example, that he supplied the gun. Therefore it would be okay for him to be seen by witnesses during the shooting and caught outside in some photographs and films. The purpose of this being.... well, read the hypothesis again. It makes a lot of sense. It was the other conspiracy -- the government cover-up -- that made Oswald the shooter. Indeed the only shooter. So that there would be no conspiracy. In summary, the assassination plotters preferred that a conspiracy to be detected, whereas the government cover-up artists didn't. (Though I do believe the assassination plotters attempted to steer the direction of the government's response.) [...] Hi Sandy, Question: Are you saying it was "okay" for LHO to be outside, or he had to be outside (in order to be noticed / caught on film, "prove" a Castro-loving, Commied-up conspiracy, and justify the bombing of Cuba and / or Russia)? [it's interesting to speculate that LHO secretly took his gun to work that morning for one of Hemming's guys to buy, or that it was somehow smuggled into the TSBD (or perhaps just into the paper "evidentiary record") beforehand, or only after-the-fact, as part of the elaborate cover up / frame job. Some "researchers" claim that the "MC" visible in films and photos taken that day either wasn't a MC, or at least wasn't Oswald's / Hidell's MC. What do you think? Time now for some humour. Hypothetical Police Statement: "We believe that Oswald loaned his rifle to the assassin and said to him, 'I'm gonna go outside now and watch you kill JFK. Good luck!'" In your scenario, how could LHO have been plausibly tagged as a "co-conspirator" by the investigators if not for that rifle's being allegedly "found" in the TSBD, and it's being "traceable" to his PO Box? Because someone might fib and say he saw LHO acting as a "lookout"? Because someone saw him take a bottle of Coke up to the assassin?] BTW, if LHO was determined to have been just a co-conspirator, who would the authorities have said was the shooter? Joe Molina? Jack Dougherty? Or [place name here] .... ? And why wasn't "Oswald's co-conspirator" caught or even looked for? Because it was unnecessary as long they had the sniper's accomplice? -- Tommy EDIT: BTW, I'm just throwing out some ideas here, I don't claim to know the answers. Yet.

Oh, OK, Tommy, thanks for the direct point. So, from that FBI document, the Interpen guys were in Dallas only until March 25th, but then again joined General Walker in Dallas a few days after April 10th, according to HEMMING himself, to console him after this attempted assassination. I agree with you that Weberman -- despite his many valuable interviews with Gerry Patrick HEMMING -- nevertheless jumped to many conclusions in trying to connect the dots -- which was typical of his generation of JFK CT writers. I want to admit that Weberman was imperfect -- but I also want to congratulate Weberman for many keen insights into HEMMING, among them, that HEMMING admitted that he called OSWALD on 11/21/1963 to offer him double the price of his Manlicher-Carcano rifle if he would bring it to the TSBD the next morning. Regards, --Paul Trejo Paul, Under your scenario, what do you think the plotters would have done if Oswald had turned Hemming's offer down? -- Tommy

Oh, OK, Tommy, thanks for the direct point. So, from that FBI document, the Interpen guys were in Dallas only until March 25th, but then again joined General Walker in Dallas a few days after April 10th, according to HEMMING himself, to console him after this attempted assassination. I agree with you that Weberman -- despite his many valuable interviews with Gerry Patrick HEMMING -- nevertheless jumped to many conclusions in trying to connect the dots -- which was typical of his generation of JFK CT writers. I want to admit that Weberman was imperfect -- but I also want to congratulate Weberman for many keen insights into HEMMING, among them, that HEMMING admitted that he called OSWALD on 11/21/1963 to offer him double the price of his Manlicher-Carcano rifle if he would bring it to the TSBD the next morning. Regards, --Paul Trejo Paul, Under your scenario, what would the platters have done if Oswald had turned Hemming's offer down? Along the same line, what if Oswald had come down with the flu and called in sick on 11/22/63? Would the bad guy's have moved to "Plan B"? -- Tommy

As for the "sliver" of suit on Campbell - I guess I imagined that to be his dark tie or a scarf hanging down the middle. If that's a sliver of his suit .... what is all that white stuff? Is there someone standing there in white that makes it look like he has a white or light-colored shirt or jacket on? . I'm lost on the sliver part.... Linda, When I say "sliver," I'm not talking about his tie, I'm talking about his jacket. In the Wiegman frame you posted, "Campbell?" is wearing a dress-up coat or jacket, only a small portion of which is visible covering his left shoulder and side because the frame's edge prevents us from seeing more of said coat or jacket. I think your "Campbell?" in that Wiegman frame is the same guy that's in the small yellow rectangle, above, (look at how much of his white shirt is showing in both frames) and that he's also possibly the big suit-wearing guy who tried to wave Marion Baker up the steps in Couch / Darnell. BTW, I'm going back to the idea that the pirouetting "Big Lumbering Guy" in Couch / Darnell [not the guy who tried to wave Baker up the steps] might have been big Jack Dougherty, in spite of the fact that he testified that he was inside the TSBD at the time. Or who knows? Maybe Jack was up on the sixth floor, planting evidence. --Tommy Tommy...OK!!!! Now I think I finally "see" what you mean about all that white stuff in our original Campbell in Wiegman - when you showed how he is the same big guy in the Bell photo (the guy I have the yellow rectangle around him) with his suit jacket unbuttoned and open, and a large area of his torso/white shirt/dark tie exposed. So that is what I'm seeing in our Wiegman "Campbell" (and so the dark area down his middle must be the dark tie as I thought). [...] Now... interesting coincidence you should bring up Dougherty! Just yesterday I came across a thread at another JFK assassination forum in which Wes Riddle, a year or 2 ago, identified Dougherty as a big tall dark headed guy in SKAGGS 16, about to be put in a squad car to be taken to DPD for questioning! I had never seen this thread before - don't know how i missed it! It's brilliant. And I don't see that anyone there in that thread refuted his identification. I had never studied a blow up of Skaggs 16 before! Well I did yesterday and cropped out and blew up his face huge. [...] "Company D" 1940 "Company D" 1941 edited a bit and bumped Comment: So, it looks like Jack Dougherty was good with a rifle. Hmmm...

Larry, It's too bad the JFK murder isn't an active case. -- Tommy

Paul, You do know that Wes Riddle over at the JFK Assassination Forum and our erstwhile own Linda G-Z claimed to have found Jack Dougherty in Skaggs 16, don't you? Waiting with Shelley by the TSBD to be taken in for questioning. Someone else claims to have spotted Detective W.E. Potts near them. There are a couple of cops close to them, too. From left to right: Bill Shelley, Detective W.E. Potts (?), Jack Dougherty [credit: Linda G-Z] [credit: Linda G-Z] Does anyone know the photo "Decker and Dougherty (?) 11/22/63" (above) came from? @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ BTW, I'm convinced that the guy caught in Alyea's film by a 6th floor window is Lovelady, not Dougherty. If you look closely, you can see that he's wearing a white t-shirt with a darker shirt over it. Also note the sharply-angled front part of his sideburn as he's turning his head back towards Fritz. I'm wondering if Lovelady was "captured" in the Martin and Hughes films before or after Alyea "caught" him, photographically-speaking, on the six floor with the policemen and detectives (above)? -- Tommy Seeing as how no one in the TSBD that day was seven feet tall, Lovelady must have been standing on a pallet.

[deleted]

[...] PS Here's a good post by "Guest" I found on the ROKC website: Warren Commission reservations concerning Jack Dougherty March 12, 1964, a memo was sent from Warren Commission lawyer Melvin A. Eisenberg to J. Lee Rankin. Eisenberg set out his suspicions concerning the testimony and actions of Jack Edwin Dougherty who was employed as an order-filler at the Texas School Book Depository. The memo was sent approximately one month before Dougherty was due to give his sworn testimony concerning events in the Texas School Book Depository on November 22, 1963 in front of the Warren Commission. Although TSBD superintendent Roy Sansom Truly tried to paint a picture of Jack Dougherty as being mentally retarded I believe the facts claim otherwise. He finished High School in Dallas. He was accepted into the Army where he served for just over two years. He was also quite articulate according to his Warren Commission testimony even though he did seem to make errors concerning times and dates. The “retardation” is simply a cover story. Here is the memo: MEMORANDUM TO: J Lee Rankin FROM: Melvin A. Eisenberg SUBJECT: Identity of Assassin I think a thorough investigation should he run on a TSBD employee named Jack Dougherty. On the morning of November 22, Dougherty was part of a crew laying a new plywood floor on the sixth floor of the TSBD. This crew consisted of Danny Arce, Dougherty, Charles Givens, James ("Junior") Jarman, Billy Lovelady, and Bonnie Rae Williams, all regular employees in the TSBD shipping and. order-filling department. They were apparently working under the direction of William Shelley the senior employee in that department. In a written statement to the Dallas police on November 22, Dougherty gave the following story: On the morning of November 22, he had worked [with the floor laying crew] on the sixth floor until 12:00, when he went down to the first floor to eat his lunch. After lunch he returned to work [on the sixth floor] and then went down to the fifth floor "to get some stock," when he heard a shot, which sounded as if it had come from inside the building. He then went down to the first floor and asked Eddie Piper, the TSBD Janitor, whether Piper had heard anything. Piper said yes, he had heard 3 shots. Dougherty then returned to the sixth floor. (81B.20)[ SA Blake of the Secret Service, who interviewed Dougherty between December 2 and December 5, reported that "when Dougherty was interviewed he seemed to be very confused about time and places. Mr. Truly [Roy S. Truly, Superintendent of the TSBD] finished the information that although Dougherty is a very good employee and a hard worker, he is mentally retarded and has difficulty in remembering facts, such as dates, times, places, and. has-been especially confused since the assassination." (SS 1*91 at p. 7) I am suspicious of Dougherty for several reasons. (1) He has no alibi. Of the six employees on the floor laying crew, Givens claims to have been with a friend at a parking lot several blocks away when the assassination took place; Williams and Jarman were together on the fifth floor with another employee named Norman; Lovelady was standing outside the TSBD (and was photographed); and Arce claims to have been standing outside the TSBD. Dougherty was inside the TSBD and all alone. (2) His story is very thin. (a) It does not make sense that Dougherty, one of a six-man floor laying crew, should begin working before the other five members returned from lunch. ( b ) It is questionable that Dougherty would have had to go to the fifth floor to get "stock" in connection with the floor-laying project. 1/ Dougherty’s father told the FBI that Dougherty had received a medical discharge from the U.S. Army and had considerable difficulty coordinating his mental facilities and his speech. (5.367) © Jarman, Norman, and Williams, who were at the southeast window of the fifth floor at the time of the assassination, and ran from there to the southwest window, make absolutely no mention of having seen Dougherty on the fifth floor. (d) It does not seem credible that Dougherty would have gone down to the first floor, found out that the three shots had been fired, and then casually returned to the sixth floor. (e) No report indicates that Dougherty or anyone else was on the sixth floor when that floor was searched (f) Since Dougherty heard the shots on the fifth floor, and since the shots were fired at approximately 12:32, Dougherty must have returned to the sixth floor, allegedly to go back to work, before 12:30. This seems odd, since the TSBD lunch period extends until 12:45. (3) If Dougherty is “mentally retarded,” it may explain some of the inconsistencies in his story. On the other hand, the “mental retardation” may be an emotional problem, which would itself be grounds for suspicion. In this connection, I find disturbing Truly’s comment that Dougherty “has been especially confused since the assassination.” cc: Ball Belin Craig Adams Specter Redlich (Then "Guest" wrote:) A couple of questions jump out of this: None of these “concerns” or “suspicions” were explicitly discussed with Dougherty when he was on the stand and from the existing record they weren’t discussed with him by the FBI or the DallasPolice after Eisenberg had raised them. Eisenberg claims the time of the shots was 12:32PM. This is the time also laid out in other documents relating to the assassination investigation. So what time was Kennedy actually shot? Last edited by Admin on Fri 20 Jan 2012, 10:13 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Word change - formatting) Of all the points Eisenberg makes, this one is my favorite: (f) Since Dougherty heard the shots on the fifth floor, and since the shots were fired at approximately 12:32, Dougherty must have returned to the sixth floor, allegedly to go back to work, before 12:30. This seems odd, since the TSBD lunch period extends until 12:45. [and especially odd since Dougherty wrote in his affidavit that he returned to work at 12:45, but then proceeded to contradict himself, timewise -- T. Graves] -- Tommy note: Greg Parker points out in response that there were several post-assassination lists of TSBD employees who were on the "6th-floor floor-laying crew," and that Dougherty was on only some of those lists.

edited and augmented

Yes, Tommy, I have that excerpt right here. In fact, let me post it again word-for-word. Weberman claims on this basis that Gerry Patrick Hemming was in Dallas in April 1963. WEBERMAN wrote: An FBI document confirmed that HEMMING was in Dallas in April 1963 just before someone took a pot shot at General Walker on April 10, 1963. On April 11, 1963, the FBI generated a document titled "FBI, Dallas, Texas. Subject: GERALD PATRICK HEMMING, Lorenzo Hall, Dallas, Texas 2-65 (field) 2-1693 (Bureau)." HEMMING denied being in Dallas at this time and said he wasn't there until July 1963.I believe we agree, Tommy, that Gerry Patrick Hemming knew many facts, and had many associates relating to the JFK assassination, and that he sometimes told the truth, and he sometimes lied about the facts. As for HEMMING's alleged denial that he was in Dallas until July 1963, HEMMING himself contradicted this, when he said that he was in Dallas, on General Walker's very back porch before the end of April. He didn't give an exact day, but he gave the month. So, again, we have proof that HEMMING lied so often that he contradicted himself. He didn't care. Also, HEMMING explained on this very FORUM why he didn't care. He said that anybody who came forward to tell the truth would be murdered right away -- not by the actual JFK plotters, but by the hundreds of folks who were swindled out of money by fake plotters! According to HEMMING, mercenaries all over the USA would solicit money from rich donors to murder JFK. Then, after JFK really was (surprisingly) assassinated, these swindlers would return to their rich donors with a message of blackmail: "Give me more money or I'll tell the world that you killed JFK!" According to HEMMING, the predictable response of the rich donors was always to hire a hit man from the Mafia to rub out their blackmailer. So, dozens of swindlers were being killed -- although they had nothing to do with the JFK murder, and neither did their rich donors -- but their rich donors falsely believed that the money they donated was the money used to murder JFK. So, anybody who would dangle the Truth about the JFK murder would be killed by some hit man paid by misguided rich donors. That was what HEMMING himself said -- and that was why he insisted on being widely known as a L-I-A-R. I have only two problems with Weberman's narrative in NODULE 10, namely: (1) Weberman suggests that JFK fired Walker from his post as US General. That was a myth that Walker himself liked to promote, because it has political sizzle. Actually, JFK and the Joint Chiefs offered Walker a solid post in Hawaii -- and didn't want the scandal of Walker being the only US General to resign in the 20th century. (2) Weberman suggests that Walker ran for Texas Governor in 1962 after the racial riots of Ole Miss in 1962. Obviously that gets the dates backward. Actually, Walker stood for gubernatorial election in May 1962, and lost, and then led the racial riots in October, 1962. I was pleased that Weberman included actual written correspondence from HEMMING to WALKER. As for Weberman's speculation that OSWALD's accomplice in the WALKER shooting was none other than HEMMING, he doesn't provide documented evidence for it. I agree that OSWALD had at least one accomplice, driving in at least one car, and perhaps using a different rifle. The bullet fragment recovered from the incident was so badly distorted that no expert could link it with any rifle. That's the official fact. IMHO, it is unlikely that HEMMING was the shooter at WALKER, because Weberman's theory presumes that this was a "False Flag" shooting, while I strongly deny that theory. It is my only disagreement with the new book by Jeff Caufield, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy (2015). IMHO, the shooting at Walker was real, and involved a group of Dallas liberal yuppies, including George De Mohrenschildt, Volkmar Schmidt and perhaps Michael Paine. It also involves former Marine, Roscoe White, whose chin, neck, shoulders, right wrist and stance are all featured in OSWALD's backyard photographs, which OSWALD himself forged using equipment at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. So you see, that is where Weberman and I sharply disconnect. Weberman is also mistaken to presume that HEMMING shot at WALKER by using OSWALD's rifle -- since we have no scientific evidence about the source of that bullet fragment -- it was so distorted. Nor did OSWALD bury or hide his rifle as he told Marina. OSWALD lied often to Marina, telling her he was on foot, that he was alone, and that he buried his rifle -- all lies. But Marina didn't know these were lies. Now, HEMMING claims that the motive for the April shooting was to portray OSWALD as violent, so that OSWALD would be framed for the JFK assassination in November. It doesn't make sense to me. First, Oswald was never booked for the shooting, so he was never portrayed as violent until after he was dead. The more likely scenario is the one that WALKER himself published from 1963 to the end of his life in 1993, namely, that he found out that OSWALD was his secret shooter by the following weekend of April, on Easter Sunday. (This was confirmed by Dick Russell; TMWKTM). WALKER was convinced that RFK had sent OSWALD to kill him over the Ole Miss scandal, and so at that time WALKER conceived his revenge. WALKER's revenge would be to assassinate JFK later in the year, with OSWALD set-up nicely as a Communist by WALKER's associates in the Radical Right Wing in New Orleans, starting with David Ferrie, a former associate of OSWALD whom OSWALD would trust. I think Weberman is mistaken to suspect HEMMING of the WALKER shooting. HEMMING did buzz around WALKER all year long, because the word on the street was that WALKER had won millions in court cases against the Associated Press. Nothing more. Thus, I would not be surprised to learn that HEMMING was in Dallas for the entire month of April, hoping to get money. Yet even when HEMMING was a member of this FORUM, he speculated that the WALKER shooting was a publicity stunt. It just doesn't match my own theory. Actually, IMHO, the WALKER shooting was the very motive of the JFK assassination. Regards, --Paul Trejo <edit typos> Paul, Thanks for the longish "lecture," but you seem to be missing the point I was trying to make (or perhaps you're just ignoring it and hoping it will go away?) -- that Webberman obviously misread the FBI document and incorrectly interpreted it to mean that Hemming had been in Dallas as late as "early April" (by extension April 10?), when in fact the informant said, in so many words, that Hemming and Hall had remained in Dallas only until March 25. Capisce? -- Tommy

edited and augmented

Sandy, There is no such thing as a gullible JFK assassination author or researcher. (lol) --Tommy

[...] As to your other speculation, I have a really hard time with the idea that conspirators went to the lengths they did to frame LHO but failed to control his whereabouts at the critical moment. [...] Lance, How could they have controlled Oswald's "whereabouts" without raising his suspicions that he was being set up? Force him to eat with them? Have Big Jack Dougherty follow him around and not let him go outside? Make him wait 10 minutes while the Dr Pepper machine was being refilled? (LOL) If they told him to wait by the phone or something, how would they know that he would really do that, especially if he were to become suspicious and wanted to be noticeable outside during the motorcade, or just overly curious and wanted to see the most powerful man in the world and his beautiful wife? I'm wondering why no one on the front steps (especially Frazier, Shelley, or Lovelady) said anything about the "Prayer Man" / "Prayer Woman" back in the corner? Because they weren't asked? Or because they told to not volunteer anything about "him" because "him was LHO?" -- Tommy

Tommy, as I was floundering around in various PM links yesterday, I did find one suggesting that this woman might be PM. Unfortunately, I have no idea how to find the link again. Anyway, I'm sure someone will be able to provide a definitive explanation as to why she can't be PM (because PM is LHO, for one thing)! As to your other speculation, I have a really hard time with the idea that conspirators went to the lengths they did to frame LHO but failed to control his whereabouts at the critical moment. Again, we have the problem of the conspirators being geniuses at Steps 1, 4 and 6 but idiots at Steps 2, 3 and 5. Lance, From post #1470 on the "Oswald leaving TSBD?" thread. The films by John martin, Jr. and Robert Hughes show "The Old Lady" we're talking about, waiting to get into (or back into?) the TSBD. I figure T.O.L. probably worked in the TSBD and I'm wondering if she's ever been identified. She also appears in the Couch / Darnell footage in which "Shelley" and "Lovelady" can be seen walking down Elm Street Extension towards the railroad yards and "Marion Baker" can be see running towards the TSBD. T.O.L., carrying her big white bag, walks rapidly from right to left towards the middle of this synchronized Couch / Darnell gif by Gerda Dunckel: -- Tommy So the timing tells us T.O.L. couldn't possibly be Prayer Man because PM is still standing back in the corner while she's walking down the street (she's not visible in this short clip from Darnell, though, because she's just passed out of view to the left on the other side of Stetson Man). -- Tommy

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