Thomas Graves

Tommy, Aren't "band name Coke" and "brand name Coca Cola" the same thing? If they are not, then what's the difference? Outside of New Coke, Classic Coke, and Diet Coke, I don't remember there ever being two different brand name Coca-Colas. [...] So you're saying that there was only one formula, but it was sold in bottles labeled "Coke" as well as in bottles labeled "Coca Cola." Is that right? (No need to get riled up. I just want to understand what you're saying.) Sandy, No. I'm suggesting the possibility of two slightly-different tasting soft drinks with two different names, made by the same company. But it doesn't matter very much. Never mind. Please? FWIW, the Hosty - Bookhout report is starting to ring true to me now: " Oswald stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola for his lunch. Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed this building. " Which, in his solo report, Bookhout changed to " Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola form the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there ". Credit: Greg Parker in a PM to me. Given the fact that I think Prayer Man is Oswald, it's obvious that if the passage from the Hosty-Bookhout report, above, is true, then Oswald went up to the second floor to get a "Coca-Cola / Coke," or perhaps to get change from somebody up there so he could buy a Dr. Pepper down on the first floor, before the motorcade got very close to the building. Prayer Man / Oswald may have gotten to his place on the front steps only seconds before Weigman started filming.

Gee, Bob. That's wonderful. Question: Nowadays isn't it possible to buy both a "Coke" and a slightly-different "Coca-Cola"? If so, when did that distinction begin? Or are "Coke" and "Coca-Cola" made according to exactly the same recipe? --Tommy

Ed, That's wonderful. So Baker wasn't such an idiot, after all. By the way, what did you mean when you said that Belin's asking Holmes about whether or not Oswald had mentioned Coca-Cola during the 11/24/63 interrogation was "a different question, about a different time" (i.e., had nothing to do with Oswald's alleged claim on 11/24/63 that he went down to the first floor "vestibule" when the "commotion" started)? Now, if you can't answer my question (see post # 241, this thread), I completely understand. In which case, perhaps Barto or Parker can? Thanks, --Tommy To repeat myself Holmes was asked that question and answered about a different time. Holmes gave the only answer he could, that the only mention by Oswald of the second floor was in regard to getting a coke prior to the assassination to have with lunch in the domino room. Sbohem, Ed Ed, Thanks for the explanation. Where, exactly, have you posted said explanation (in green, above) on this forum in the recent past? I must have missed it. Regarding your use of the word "coke," above, it does make me wonder if Oswald (allegedly) said "coke," "coca-cola," "Coke," "Coca-Cola," "coke-cola," "Coke-Cola," "Dr. Pepper," or "Hires Root Beer." Putting all seriousness aside, in which document can I read the allegation about Oswald's getting a soft drink from the second floor prior to the assassination "to have with lunch in the first-floor domino room?" Fritz's notes? Mahalo, -- Tommy Edited and bumped for Ed LeDoux.

Excellent point, Bernie. The same point I've been trying to make recently about Mr. DiEugenio. --Tommy PS But when it comes to H & L afficionados, these "favorable mistakes" are very pernicious IMHO.

Well, Paul B., actually, the only thing you seem to write to me about is resentment that I have the mettle to criticize some of the sacred cows of the CT community, like Peter Dale Scott and James DiEugenio. You believe in the CIA-did-it CT so much that you've had playing cards printed, haven't you? These show the various roles that you have come to believe the various CIA high-command played in the JFK murder, don't they? All based on writers like Scott and DiEugenio. You claim that it's not my Walker-did-it theory that you object to, but only my "methods". But actually, if Walker-did-it, then the CIA didn't -- and that's what really galls you, isn't it? Well, I feel sure that a lot of people are in your boat. As for Gerry Patrick Hemming being a known L-I-A-R for a full 50% of the time -- I've already answered that. But your point -- like that of many others -- is that we should therefore accept NOTHING that he said. That, according to A.J. Weberman, would be a MAJOR MISTAKE. Gerry Patrick Hemming played a direct role in the JFK murder, and he knew ALL of the principal players. He also explained why he lied so much -- to protect his own life. As for my theory about LHO handing his rifle to one of Hemming's confederates outside of the TSBD, I'm not making ANY of that up -- I am simply putting one and two and three together: (1) Gerry Patrick Hemming (not me) told A.J. Weberman that he called LHO on 11/21/1963 and offered him double the price of his rifle to bring it to the TSBD the next morning; and (2) Serious JFK researchers have confirmed that NOBODY saw LHO take a package inside the TSBD, and (3) Linnie Mae Randle and Wesley Buell Frazier both testified that they saw LHO carrying a long package on the morning of 11/22/1963; and Wesley said he saw LHO bolt out of his car with the package, hurrying 50 paces past Wesley, which he never did before. When I add these OBJECTIVE REPORTS together: 1, 2, 3 -- I make NOTHING up when I say that the logical conclusion is that LHO obviously handed that package to one of Hemming's confederates outside of the TSBD. It makes perfect sense, and it uses entirely objective reports of OTHERS. This is the BEST THEORY I've ever read to explain how the JFK Plotters got ahold of LHO's rifle. LHO didn't shoot his rifle on 11/23/1963 -- but J. Edgar Hoover knew before the day was over exactly WHO DID. The FACTS just keep adding up. Regards, --Paul Trejo Trejo, You're twisting words, again. 1 ) Only a couple of people were asked it they saw Oswald carrying a package near or inside the TSBD. "Emotional" Jack Dougherty was one of them. 2 ) Buell Frazier said the package Oswald was carrying was too short to have been the broken-down carbine. 3 ) Frazier didn't say Oswald "bolted" out of the car and appeared to intentionally try to get way ahead of him. He said that Oswald simply didn't wait around for him while he revved up his old car's engine for five or ten minutes to recharge the battery. Please do try to get small details like these straight in the future. You're getting just as bad as Mr. You-Know-Who. --Tommy

Larry, It's really very simple. Brand name "Coke" was evidently not available for purchase inside the TSBD, whereas brand name "Coca-Cola" obviously was (ergo the brand name "Coca-Cola" machine and the brand name "Coca-Cola" "empties" box near said machine in the second floor lunch room). But it gets confusing because the word "coke" (with a small “C”) could also be used to refer to a soda pop in general down there in Dallas back in the day, and since the Oklahoma (Dang! Oh-klaw-home-uh ain't all that fur from Big "D"!) variant of "coke" (with a small "C") was Coke-Cola, that abomination of a slang-word / brand-word-combo could plausibly have been used by Fritz or Bookout or Oswald or Holmes to mean either a brand name "Coke," a brand name "Coca-Cola," or a frickin' Hires Root Beer for that matter. Sorry to have bothered you. But I wouldn't call it obsessive. I'd call it dogged. It would be nice and simple for JFK assassination researchers if there were only two kinds of soda pop that were sold in the TSBD – brand name Coca-Cola (from the machine in the second floor lunch room), and Dr. Pepper (from the machine in the far right corner of the first floor), and if no slang expressions like “coke” (with a small “C”), “coca-cola” (with a small “C”), or, heaven forbid, “coke-cola” were in circulation among the general population in that part of the country for them to use to signify any kind of soft drink whatsoever (including, obviously, Dr. Pepper). On one hand, if it were nice and simple like I outlined above, then Belin's question to Holmes involving Oswald and the term “Coca-Cola”(read “from the second floor lunchroom soda pop machine”) would not only stick out like a sore thumb more than it already does, but could also point us researchers in the right direction, especially since Holmes answered in the affirmative. But since Belin's possible use of the term “coca-cola” (with a small “C”), or maybe even his possible use of the mis-transcribed, abominable term “coke-cola”, could have been meant to ask about an unspecified soft drink in general, then all bets are off, and it's a total "bottle of worms," if you will. I personally would like to think that Belin and Holmes (but not Oswald -- LOL) not only said what they were alleged to have said, but actually meant brand name Coca-Cola, not brand-name Coke, or some unspecified soft drink like Hires Root Beer or Dr. Pepper, when they said it. --Tommy

Ed, That's wonderful. So Baker wasn't such an idiot, after all. By the way, what did you mean when you said that Belin's asking Holmes about whether or not Oswald had mentioned Coca-Cola during the 11/24/63 interrogation was "a different question, about a different time" (i.e., had nothing to do with Oswald's alleged claim on 11/24/63 that he went down to the first floor "vestibule" when the "commotion" started)? Now, if you can't answer my question (see post # 241, this thread), I completely understand. In which case, perhaps Barto or Parker can? Thanks, --Tommy To repeat myself Holmes was asked that question and answered about a different time. Holmes gave the only answer he could, that the only mention by Oswald of the second floor was in regard to getting a coke prior to the assassination to have with lunch in the domino room. Sbohem, Ed Ed, Thanks for the explanation. Where, exactly, have you posted said explanation (in green, above) on this forum in the recent past? I must have missed it. Regarding your use of the word "coke," above, it does make me wonder if Oswald (allegedly) said "coke," "coca-cola," "Coke," "Coca-Cola," "coke-cola," "Dr. Pepper," or "Hires Root Beer." Putting all seriousness aside, in which document can I read the allegation about Oswald's getting a soft drink of some kind prior to the assassination to have with lunch in the first-floor domino room? Fritz's notes? Mahalo, -- Tommy

Garbage is in the eyes of the beholder. --Tommy

Larry, You seem to be saying you think Oswald was confronted on the second floor. Regardless, did you and your buddies actually say "Coke-Cola" instead of "Coke?" Jesis Maria. If one of your friends wanted a (brand name) Coca-Cola, would they ask for a "Coca-Cola," a "Coke-Cola," or a "Coke" for cryin' out loud? I think I understand correctly that in your neck of the woods people would say "Coke-Cola" when they wanted a (brand name) Coke, right? Or was "Coke-Cola" also used to refer to soft drinks in general? I'm so confused... Did they say Coke-Cola because they were they afraid if they just asked for "Coke," people would think they were referring to cocaine? (Just kidding.) What would they say if they wanted a Dr. Pepper? LOL Fascinating stuff. You do realize that, technically, the machine in the second floor lunch room was a (brand name) Coca-Cola machine, not a (brand name) Coke machine? Do you think that Jewish, Washington D.C.- born and Iowa-raised David Belin said "Coke-Cola" and it got transcribed incorrectly? What about former Kansan, Harry D. Holmes? Was (brand name) "Coke" even available anywhere in the TSBD? (I don't think so, so maybe this whole "Coke-Cola meant (brand name) Coke in Oswald's case" is a moot point, don't you agree?) You don't think Oswald said "Coke-Cola" when he was talking about a Dr. Pepper, do you? What, if anything, do you think Oswald had in his hands when he was confronted by some policeman somewhere in or around the TSBD: 1 ) a Coca-Cola, 2 ) a Dr. Pepper, or 3 ) a hard-to-find Coke? (I'm talking name brands, here.) Final question: Where do you think Oswald was when he was confronted by Baker or some other, unnamed, policeman in or around the TSBD around 12:35 on 11/22/63? Thanks, --Tommy Edited and bumped for Larry Hancock.

Of that, "(to be continued)" I'm sure. And THAT is sad. Ya know Paul, until you get Ruth Paine and/or her spokesperson in front of a microphone and camera answering a couple hundred questions, unscripted, this Paine thread banter is going nowhere. Why not start a new thread, Slice and Dice your favorite reviewer with Paul and Thomas hosting? You're not jealous of Jimmy Di are ya? lmfao! Healy, Jealous, no. Envious, maybe. Regardless, I think "Word Twister" Trejo and I "tag team" very well against Mr. "Always Making Mistakes To His Perceived So-Called Advantage" James DiEugio, don't you? --Tommy

Warren Commission Document 897, pp 35-36, just happens to be Peggy Hawkins' statement and, regardless of how many times I read it, I cannot find a SINGLE reference to her standing near the Stemmons Freeway sign. I don't know why we waste our time on this nut case. Casting aspersions on another EF member again, Ingrate Cowboy Bob? Tsk, tsk. Hope you don't get kicked off the forum for that. You really should be more discrete. I highly value your opinion around here. ON MANLY GUNS AND BALLISTICS, only. (BTW, Thanks for pointing out that the Carcano Model 91/38 carbine allegedly found on the sixth floor probably didn't shoot very accurately with that .264 caliber ammo instead of the intended .268 caliber stuff.) https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?13292-FBI-Evidence-Proves-Oswald-s-Ammunition-was-not-Capable-of-Sufficient-Accuracy-to-Kill-JFK#.VrmbUBgrIdU --Tommy Edited and bumped for Ingrate Cowboy Bob.

Warren Commission Document 897, pp 35-36, just happens to be Peggy Hawkins' statement and, regardless of how many times I read it, I cannot find a SINGLE reference to her standing near the Stemmons Freeway sign. I don't know why we waste our time on this nut case. Casting aspersions on another EF member again, Ingrate Cowboy Bob? Tsk, tsk. Hope you don't get kicked off the forum for that. You really should be more discrete. We highly value your opinion around here. ON MANLY GUNS AND BALLISTICS.t (Thanks for pointing out that the Carcano Model 91/38 carbine allegedly found on the sixth floor probably didn't shoot very accurately with that .264 caliber ammo instead of the intended .268 caliber stuff.) https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?13292-FBI-Evidence-Proves-Oswald-s-Ammunition-was-not-Capable-of-Sufficient-Accuracy-to-Kill-JFK#.VrmbUBgrIdU --Tommy

Larry, You and your buddies would actually say "Coke-Cola" instead of "Coke?" Jesis Maria. If one of your friends wanted a (brand name) Coca-Cola, would they ask for a "Coca-Cola," a "Coke-Cola," or a "Coke" for cryin' out loud? I think I understand correctly that in your neck of the woods people would say "Coke-Cola" when they wanted a (brand name) Coke, right? Or was "Coke-Cola" also used to refer to soft drinks in general? I'm so confused... Were they afraid that if they just asked for a "Coke," people would think they were referring to cocaine? (Just kidding.) What would they say if they wanted a Dr. Pepper? LOL Fascinating stuff. You do realize that, technically, the machine in the second floor lunch room was a (brand name) Coca-Cola machine, not a (brand name) Coke machine? Do you think that Jewish, Washington D.C.- born and Iowa-raised David Belin said "Coke-Cola" and it got transcribed incorrectly? What about former Kansan, Harry D. Holmes? Was (brand name) "Coke" even available anywhere in the TSBD? (I don't think so, so maybe this whole "Coke-Cola meant (brand name) Coke in Oswald's case" is a moot point, don't you agree?) Do you think Oswald might have said "Coke-Cola" to mean (brand name) Dr. Pepper to Holmes and Company, or to anybody for that matter? What, if anything, do you think Oswald had in his hands when he was confronted by some policeman somewhere in or around the TSBD: 1 ) a Coca-Cola, 2 ) a Dr. Pepper, or 3 ) a hard-to-find Coke? (I'm talking name brands, here.) Final question: Where do you think Oswald was when he was confronted by Baker or some other, unnamed, policeman in or around the TSBD? Thanks, --Tommy

Larry, You actually said "Coke-Cola" instead of "Coca-Cola?" Jesis Maria. If one of your friends wanted a (brand name) Coca-Cola, would they ask for a "Coke-Cola" or a "Coca-Cola?" I think I understand correctly that in your neck of the woods people would say "Coke-Cola" when they wanted a (brand name) Coke, right? Or was "Coke-Cola" only used to refer to a soft drink in general? I'm so confused... What would they say if they wanted a Dr. Pepper? LOL Fascinating stuff. --Tommy PS You do realize that, technically, the machine in the second floor lunch room was a (brand name) Coca-Cola machine, not a (brand name) Coke machine? Do you think that Jewish, Washington D.C.- born and Iowa-raised David Belin said "Coke-Cola" and it got transcribed incorrectly? What about former Kansan, Harry D. Holmes? Do you think Oswald might have said "Coke-Cola" to mean Dr. Pepper to Holmes and Company, or to anybody for that matter?

Larry, I agree with you that "Coke" was commonly used to describe many different soft drinks back in the day, but I'm wondering if "Coca-Cola" was used in the same way. I rather doubt it. Why use four syllables ("Co - Ca - Co - La") when you can get by by using only one ("Coke") to refer to "soda pop" in general? The machine in the second floor lunch room was definitely a Coca-Cola (brand name) machine, leading me to believe that it dispensed only "Coca-Cola" soda pop. I think the reason so many empty Dr. Pepper bottles can be seen in the "empties" box near the "Coca-Cola" machine is because many workers bought their (perhaps more popular?) Dr. Pepper from the machine on the first floor and took them up to the second floor lunch room on their breaks and during lunchtime, drank them there, and rather than take the empty bottles back downstairs to put in the "empties" box near the Dr. Pepper machine, put them in the Coca-Cola "empties" box on the second floor, instead. A small thing I just now noticed about the way Belin asked Holmes the question might give us a clue as to what, exactly, Belin was asking him about. He asked, "Was Oswald drinking a Coca-Cola, or anything like that? (Or words to that effect.) It seems to me that if Belin was using the term "Coca-Cola" in a generic-kind-of-way to mean just "soda pop" or "soft drink," he wouldn't have added the or anything like that? because to do so would have been redundant. I seriously doubt that Belin was wondering if Oswald was drinking a bottle of Evian, a plastic bottle of organic carrot juice, or a glass (?) bottle of apple juice. My intuition tells me he must have been talking about carbonated beverages, and Coca-Cola (brand name) in particular. --Tommy PS Note the brand name "Coca-Cola" on the "empties" box in the second floor lunch room. Which strengthens my suspicion that the machine it was close to dispensed only "Coca-Cola" soda pop, if you will. Bumped for Larry Hancock

Ed, That's wonderful. So Baker wasn't such an idiot, after all. By the way, what did you mean when you said that Belin's asking Holmes about whether or not Oswald had mentioned Coca-Cola during the 11/24/63 interrogation was "a different question, about a different time" (i.e., had nothing to do with Oswald's alleged claim on 11/24/63 that he went down to the first floor "vestibule" when the "commotion" started)? Now, if you can't answer my question (see post # 241, this thread), I completely understand. In which case, perhaps Barto or Parker can? Thanks, --Tommy

Good post, Word Twister. Seriously. I've noticed over the years that Mr. James DiEugenio sometimes is either careless ... or actually takes ... liberties, shall we say? ... with the facts. Naw, say it isn't so! It's probably just overzealous carelessness on his part, right (which mistakes coincidentally always seem to help support his "argument")? Funny how it works out that way, isn't it. Regardless, it's hard for me to take him seriously. I'd like to, but I just can't. It would involve way to much fact-checking on my part. So little time, so many mistakes... --Tommy PS Keep up the good "exposing of Mr. James DiEugenio's overzealous carelessness" kind-of-work.

[...] Jim I have no intention of going into teeth, gunshot wounds or tonsils... We've done that. I am responding to this particular issue you posted linking John's new article. Let's, for once, just stick to one thing at a time eh? I never said that the "FBI claimed the ticket was from a different Oswald"...I'm simply claiming that it is no "mystery" as to how the FBI got to know of this tag written by Ryder in the first place. Your introduction to the article says it is. It is YOU who is implying that it was possibly a different Oswald and that the FBI had prior knowledge of this event. They didn't. They were informed by an employee of WFAA-TV who passed on the anonymous tip to the DPD. No mystery at all. Why spoil a really good article by falsely implying a mystery when basic research shows there to be none. Because 'mystery' is the oil that keeps the whole H&L on the road. Without it there is no H&L. [...] "The unanswered ques­tion is who, if someone other than Dial Ryder, created the tag on Ryder's workbench and who, if someone other than Dial Ryder, notified the Dallas Police, the FBI, and the press." -- Hargrove But Ryder admitted that he was the one who wrote the tag. He confirmed that it was his writing. There is no "someone other" involved. We know he wrote the tag so he must have been the first person to have this information, obviously. He then admitted telling his wife before informing anyone else. -- Laverick "three or more anonymous callers notified police that the scope on Oswald's rifle had been mounted at the Irving Sports Shop." -- Hargrove I could be wrong but I believed there was just the one call, a woman, so if you could show citations for that I'd appreciate it. Also I don't think that the shop was first mentioned, it was a vague location that contained several gun shops. -- Laverick "Your post seem to suggest that everything has been explained about this incident, but I don't think that is the case." -- Laverick See, this is where we all go round the mulberry bush again isn't it? We don't know the FULL story so any tiny doubts or miniscule anomalies can then be construed in any manner we wish to fit whatever pre-ordained conclusion we have drawn. I don't believe that the FBI (or any other sinister parties) had any prior knowledge of that tag: a tag for a gun that Oswald didn't use 'brought in' by someone who looked nothing like Oswald! Let's assume it WAS the assassination weapon. Well then we'd have a story; and one that would have been part of the 'known' narrative. Conversely, let's suppose it wasn't Oswald's gun but it was brought in by someone identical to him. Likewise we have a mysterious story of someone possibly impersonating him. But you have neither! Ryder has neither! The fact that you portrayed the tag as being "found" using inverted commas, strongly implies that you think there is another more sinister explanation. But you don't say what. I've also noticed that neither you or John have mentioned Harvey or Lee in this story, but refer to him as LHO. Whilst I find this as a progressive move I can't help feeling it is merely a tactical innovation. This portion of the article, at least, alludes to (by a nod and a wink and without mentioning names) the narrative the originators have spent huge parts of their lives promoting. -- Laverick And finally... "Remember that for nearly a week after the assassination, news media widely reported that the the FBI had analysed the handwriting on the order form for a $12.78 rifle, with scope, and determined it to be "Lee Harvey Oswald's."" -- Hargrove But this has nothing to do with the tag we are talking about! This refers to the order made to Kleins. Why would you mention handwriting recognition on a document we are not discussing to make your point? Ryder wrote the tag. It's his writing and he admitted to it! The fact that the FBI assumed it was LHO's handwriting on another document is another story... but it does serve as a nice distraction from the main point. -- Laverick [ emphasis added by T. Graves ] Excellent posts (plural), Bernie! As always! --Tommy

Paul B., My bad. I should have said, "He never met a weak, unsubstantiated, un-fact-checked, CIA-Did-It-JFK-Conspiracy-Theory he didn't like." And no, I'm not saying that the CIA didn't do it. LOL How ironic? Or just ... hypocritical ? --Tommy PS It's interesting that Mr. James DiEugenio seems to think I was trying, through the vehicle of my poll, to get Word Twister Trejo kicked off the forum. I mean ... in this context, that's the only thing a damn petition could have been good for, right? I mean, it sounds like a serious case of wishful thinking on Mr. James DiEugenio's part, right? The funny thing is that, looking back at it, I wish it had been a petition, because I'm sick and tired of Word Twister Trejo. (Until, of course, he agrees with something I post or comes up with some "evidence" that appeals to me. In which case I'll try to twist his words and force them to accommodate my theories-in-progress. I mean, turn about is fair play, right?

It's not just a concept, Jon. When I started looking into the medical evidence, in 2003, I quickly realized that the vast majority of LNs said the medical evidence was legit, and proved no conspiracy, and that the vast majority of CTs thought the medical evidence was fake, and was faked to prove there was no conspiracy. It occurred to me that the only way I could get to the bottom of it was to start from scratch, that is, by reading every bit of testimony I could find and spending time at research libraries reading forensic journals. Well, I soon came to realize there was a third alternative: that the medical was legit, but suggested a conspiracy. As time has passed, I have found more and more reason to believe this is indeed the case. The problem, however, is that most of the CT community is old, and entrenched, and very protective of their own theories. I have, in effect, made myself a target. And I understand that. And accept that. If you go through the archives of this website, you will see dozens of attacks on my scholarship and competence, etc--mostly by the body and film alteration camp, of which Greg is a charter member. What makes this most recent attack so perplexing, however, is that, from what I can gather, Milicent is not part of this camp. Well, this suggests to me that Greg is trying to have it both ways, and hosting an attack on me simply because it is an attack on me, and not because it supports what he and his camp believe. Following in the footsteps of Fetzer, he is pushing David Mantik's (and now Mike Chesser's) bit about the x-rays. Well, one of the many problems with this, as I have repeatedly pointed out, is that Mantik (and Horne) contend that the Harper fragment blew out the MIDDLE of the back of the head, at and below the level of the ears. Well, Milicent can't possibly believe Mantik is correct about this, IMO, at least not while pushing the authenticity of the autopsy protocol, or eyewitness statements. So, let's be clear about this, shall we? Middleman Greg, please ask Ms. Cranor is she supports David Mantik's claim the Harper fragment was blown out the middle of the back of Kennedy's head, and that this hole is actually depicted on the x-rays, only most of us can't see it. Something tells me her answer won't be what you'd like us to think it is. Thanks, Pat. I finally understand where you're coming from on this. My problem in understanding you in the past was based on the fact that I never knew when you were arguing your own point of view in your lengthy website articles, or laying out, in a "devil's advocate" kind-of-way, the viewpoints of your opponents. Please remember in the future the old adage, "Simplicity is elegance." Or for people like me, "Keep it simple, stupid." Thanks, --Tommy

Larry, I agree with you that "Coke" was commonly used to describe many different soft drinks back in the day, but I'm wondering if "Coca-Cola" was used in the same way. I rather doubt it. Why use four syllables ("Co - Ca - Co - La") when you can get by by using only one ("Coke") to refer to "soda pop," in general? The machine in the second floor lunch room was definitely a Coca-Cola (brand name) machine, leading me to believe that it dispensed only "Coca-Cola" soda pop. I think the reason so many empty Dr. Pepper bottles can be seen in the "empties" box near the "Coca-Cola" machine is because many workers bought their (perhaps more popular?) Dr. Pepper from the machine on the first floor and took them up to the second floor lunch room on their breaks and during lunchtime, drank them there, and rather than take the empty bottles back downstairs to put in the "empties" box near the Dr. Pepper machine, put them in the Coca-Cola "empties" box on the second floor, instead. A small thing I just now noticed about the way Belin asked Holmes the question might give us a clue as to what, exactly, Belin was asking him about. He asked, "Was Oswald drinking a Coca-Cola, or anything like that? (Or words to that effect.) It seems to me that if Belin was using the term "Coca-Cola" in a generic-kind-of-way to mean just "soda pop" or "soft drink," he wouldn't have added the or anything like that? because to do so would have been redundant. I seriously doubt that Belin was wondering if Oswald was drinking a bottle of Evian, a plastic bottle of organic carrot juice, or a glass (?) bottle of apple juice. My intuition tells me he must have been talking about carbonated beverages, and Coca-Cola (brand name) in particular. --Tommy PS Note the brand name "Coca-Cola" on the "empties" box in the second floor lunch room. Which strengthens my suspicion that the machine it was close to dispensed only "Coca-Cola" soda pop, if you will.

A different question about a different time? Which time would that be, Edward? Do you mean the time Truly bought Oswald a Coca-Cola (brand name) from the Coca-Cola (brand name) machine in the 2nd floor lunchroom, way back when he hired him in September ? (For all you naive students and newbie "researchers" out there, I'm just kidding. I think Truly bought him a Dr. Pepper from the machine on the 1st floor, instead. LOL) It does seem Holmes got his stories mixed up and may have "let the cat out of the bag" regarding Oswald's claiming that he was on the first floor much earlier than the official story says he was, but too late to be Prayer Man, unfortunately, unless by "the commotion" Holmes / Oswald meant the (probably) audible-on-the-sixth-floor crowd noise which must have been increasing in volume as the motorcade approached. --Tommy EDIT: Here's a serious idea -- Did Baker and Truly encounter Oswald by the Dr. Pepper machine at the back of the first floor? I mean, that does fit in with Larry Hancock's theory because Larry seems to think Oswald was hanging around the rear door, waiting to br picked up or something. edited ar the very bottom bumped for Ed LeDoux or Larry Hancock to comment on

From Holmes' Informal Memorandum / Statement given to "Special Agent" Charles T. Brown on 11/24/63: “When asked about his whereabouts at the time of the shooting, he stated that when lunch time came, and he didn’t say which floor he was on, he said one of the negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and stated ‘You go on down and send the elevator back up and I will join you in a few minutes.’ Before he could finish whatever he was doing, he stated, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and when he went down stairs, a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that ‘he is one of our employees’ whereupon the policeman had him step aside momentarily. Following this, he simply walked out the front door of the building. I don’t recall that anyone asked him why he left or where or how he went. I just presumed that this had been covered in an earlier questioning. From Holmes' WC deposition on April 2, 1964: Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he was at the time of the shooting? Mr. HOLMES. He just said he was still up in the building when the commotion-- he kind of---- Mr. BELIN. Did he gesture with his hands, do you remember? Mr. HOLMES. He talked with his hands all the time. He was handcuffed, but he was quiet--well, he was not what you call a stoic phlegmatic person. He is very definite with his talk and his eyes and his head, and he goes like that, you see. Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald say anything about seeing a man with a crew cut in front of the building as he was about to leave it? Do you remember anything about that? Mr. HOLMES. No. Mr. BELIN. You don't remember anything about that. Did he say anything about telling a man about going to a pay phone in the building? Mr. HOLMES. Policeman rushed--I take it back---I don't know whether he said a policeman or not--a man came rushing by and said, "Where's your telephone?" And the man showed him some kind of credential and I don't know that he identified the credential, so he might not have been a police officer, and said I am so and so, and shoved something at me which I didn't look at and said, "Where is the telephone?" And I said, "Right there," and just pointed in to the phone, and I [Oswald] went on out. Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald say why he left the building? Mr. HOLMES. No; other than just said he talked about this commotion and went out to see what it was about. [...] Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting? Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule. Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule? Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part. Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor? Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor. Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about a Coca Cola or anything like that, if you remember? Mr. HOLMES. Seems like he said he was drinking a Coca Cola, standing there by the Coca Cola machine drinking a Coca Cola. Mr. BELIN. Anything else? Mr. HOLMES. Nothing more than what I have already told you on it. A different question about a different time? Which time would that be, Edward? Do you mean the time Truly bought Oswald a Coca-Cola (brand name) from the Coca-Cola (brand name) machine in the 2nd floor lunchroom, way back when he hired him in September ? (For all you naive students and newbie "researchers" out there, I'm just kidding. I think Truly bought him a Dr. Pepper from the machine on the 1st floor, instead. LOL) It does seem Holmes got his stories mixed up and may have "let the cat out of the bag" regarding Oswald's claiming that he was on the first floor much earlier than the official story says he was, but too late to be Prayer Man, unfortunately, unless by "the commotion" Holmes / Oswald meant the (probably) audible-on-the-sixth-floor crowd noise which must have been increasing in volume as the motorcade approached. --Tommy EDIT: Here's a serious idea -- Did Baker and Truly encounter Oswald by the Dr. Pepper machine at the back of the first floor? I mean, that does fit in with Larry Hancock's theory because Larry seems to think Oswald was hanging around the rear door, waiting to br picked up or something.